My character is outshining the others and I can't help it.

[Drache64]

I like to tool and tweak characters and I like to create a character who can do what I like to do. I spent 3 nights and many hours of study learning an Aegis, which many have said is a tier 3 class. I built my character to be our tank as everyone else was Gunslinger, Monk, and Ranger.

I chose Elan for resilience and extra power points, and I took the customization for Initiate's Soul to give me access to stances and martial maneuvers.

With an AC of 20 when I did get hit I would use Body of delusion to take an autohypnosis check to halve the damage, then use DR 2/- from my Aegis class, and then use Resilience if needed to reduce the damage completely so I could regularly effectively take no damage. The whole table seemed very upset and called me game breaking because I was hard to hit then I could reduce damage to zero. I don't know why this should bother people, I am just being a good tank. They should be happy I am able to damage soak so they can DPS.

Then they got upset at my DPS because I took the elemental numbus stance and chose earth so my weighted great sword dealt damage as if it were large which is 3d8, +3 for having the improved damage customization then +6 for my str damage (+4 mod then +2 for wielding two handed), then if needed I would expend psionic focus with crystallized weapon customization for an extra 2d6 if i needed it making my total DPS: 3d8+2d6+9 and then when in trouble I could use minute hand maneuver to attack again with -2 on the atk roll. but I can only do this on one round before I had to spend a full round refocusing my maneuvers. But I made sure to stick to my part of the map, when we were surrounded by zombies they all attacked a section of the map and I killed only my fair share of MOBs and with my abilities I can 1 shot most things but they all had multiple attacks for crowd control. I thought it was quite balanced because I could only pick off one thing at a time, and I let them know I couldn't solo the whole encounter, it had to be a team effort but they accused me of breaking the game.

At the end of our session one player had walked out after accusing me of god-moding and attacking me. He was very pissed when I told him I didn't want to attack him back but he knew I could 1 shot him whereas he was firing at me with both his pistols and couldn't do any damage. In the final boss battle we were all surrounded by zombies and a custom monster the GM had made. He said it was CR 3 and we were a CR3 party. I got it's attention and prepared an attack action for when it got within range. When it focused on me 1 rolled an 18 (crit for weighted great sword) then confirmed crit with a 12. I used my crystallized weapon feature for +2d6 on the crit and rolled a total of 66 damage and 1 shot the final boss before it even got to attack... I didn't know it would be so easy to kill i didn't know it's stats.

I don't want to play my character less than he is, I spent much time and research on this character and I enjoy what I can do. I don't think I was power gaming or trying to show up the party, everyone had their strengths and I supported the group. I think the end boss should have been stronger, a CR 3 boss for a CR 3 party is too low and I don't think I am being a problem here. People didn't seem upset at my behavior or actions they were just upset at how good my character was compared to theirs...

[ericgrau]

I like to tool and tweak characters and I like to create a character who can do what I like to do. I spent 3 nights and many hours of study learning an Aegis, which many have said is a tier 3 class.

...

I don't want to play my character less than he is, I spent much time and research on this character and I enjoy what I can do.

Well there you go. You did this, others didn't. You came out too strong compared to them. I'm sorry but you need to fix your character and can't leave him as-is. You can adjust your current character if you love him and want to hold on to him.

I like to spend lots of time finding silly, fun and/or interesting things to do. Try that, and as an added challenge do it without taking a single ability that's above par for your group. Or whatever other goal you can enjoy, just no abilities that are above par for your gaming group.

[Drache64]

Well there you go. You did this, others didn't. You came out too strong compared to them. I'm sorry but you need to fix your character and can't leave him as-is. You can adjust your current character if you love him and want to hold on to him.

I like to spend lots of time finding silly, fun and/or interesting things to do. Try that, and as an added challenge do it without taking a single ability that's above par for your group. Or whatever other goal you can enjoy, just no abilities that are above par for your gaming group.

You say fix and adjust as if I broke the rules. I created a character that works, many people have said the Aegis is easily a tier 3 character. It's not fun to play a Barbarian who can't rage, a monk who can't punch. I don't want to play a session where my abilities don't work and my character can't hit, it's just not fun.

Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.

[Bad Wolf]

Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.

It kinda does, if you want to continue playing with your friends. If you don't care to bring down the power level, well, I'm sure they'll come up with their own solution.

[Thirdtwin]

You say fix and adjust as if I broke the rules. I created a character that works, many people have said the Aegis is easily a tier 3 character. It's not fun to play a Barbarian who can't rage, a monk who can't punch. I don't want to play a session where my abilities don't work and my character can't hit, it's just not fun.

Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.

You didn't break Pathfinder's rules. What you broke was the social contract, presumably unstated. That's not really your fault, just a result of your player tendencies not matching with that of the group's, but it is true that if you don't change the specific details of your character to fit more in line with what the group's expectations are (which, as you've presented things, appears to be "to struggle uselessly and probably die unless the DM undershoots the challenge level, which it looks like he was trying to do") you're probably the one that's not going to be permitted to play anymore. Recalibrating your character to be worse would probably help, as would holding back your immense level 3 character power level, but it doesn't sound like you'd have much fun with either of those options, and considering one of your co-players tried to fight you IC, doesn't sound like the others would have fun if you didn't.

[Reversefigure4]

Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.

All groups have their own rough power level, and yours is wildly in excess of what the other players are playing. The other players - and presumably the DM - are unhappy at how this unbalances the game. This pretty much leaves you three options:

a) Downgrade your character. Either make a much, much less optimised version of your existing character, or take a Tier 6 character and optimise lightly from there. You say you can't help it, but what you mean is that you don't want to take this option. Bending to the will of the majority is generally the way to play happily in a group.

b) Upgrade everybody else's characters. Rebuild them according to your level of optimisation. The other players may not want this. The DM may not want this (because then his challenges will be annihilated).

c) Leave the group, and find another that fits your level of game. If you won't change your gamestyle, and the group doesn't want to change theirs, that's pretty much your option.

[ericgrau]

b) Upgrade everybody else's characters. Rebuild them according to your level of optimisation. The other players may not want this. The DM may not want this (because then his challenges will be annihilated).

Very true, but he could at least help the barbarian rage since he mentioned that and raging is pretty baseline. However the barbarian is unlikely to listen until Drache first takes the much larger step of bringing his character down. Before bringing the other characters up... up a small amount, just to baseline. Don't make multiple other players change a lot just because you don't want to change your one character.

Also... the tiers aren't real. At least not 95% of the time outside of the forums. A well optimized "T5" or maybe "T6" will outshine a casual "T1" player.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

It is an extremely difficult situation, you have four real options, 1 continue using the character as is, not the most friendly option. 2 find a different group, not always an option, specially when playing with friends, 3 weaken your character, or only use the complete damage negation sparingly, since that seems to be the biggest issue, or 4 change to a different character, keeping this character for a future campaign, like make sure the other players and DM know you'd be using him so they can build a character that isn't so outshined.

3 and 4 are the most friendly options towards your current group, but not really the best for your own enjoyment.

[DeTess]

Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.

'That guy' brings waterballoons to a water-pistol fight, or the 'paint-ball-minigun-9001' to a casual paintball afternoon with his colleagues. 'That guy' brings his entire $3000 gaming rig set up to a casual LAN-party, and then complaints that no one's laptops can run the games he wants to play. 'That guy' brings an optimized ToB/PoW class to a party of players that barely know that there are other books besides the PHB.

It is true that all the other beachgoers could have brought waterballoons tot he party, or that 'that guy's' colleagues could have also hired the biggest paint-ball rifles available. The other people at the LAN party could also have invested in big gaming rigs to take to LAN-party's, and the other people in 'that guy's' party could have also invested a couple of weeks into properly learning the system they where playing. However, all the other people are playing games casually to have fun, and 'that guy' is bad for their fun. It should be easy for 'that guy' to adapt to the group. It is in fact easier for 'that guy' to adapt than it is for the rest of the group to adapt.

If you think you're being 'that guy' (and I'm not saying that you are, that is for you and those around you to decide), you should adapt, or you'll find you're no longer getting invited to LAN-parties, beach events, paint-ball afternoons or DnD games.

[Uncle Pine]

First of all, remember that "lower tier" doesn't mean ineffective in combat. In fact, optimized tier 3 characters are by definition only truly efficient in combat. As such they also generally lack the opportunity to get past the radar by channelling their potential through others by buffing, but that's a talk for another day.

In my experience, there are only a handful of ways to not come out as a munchkin in a group of people who are either new to the game or not really into optimizing and crunching numbers:

a) Downgrade yourself, or optimize silly things. Twice I ended up playing a Commoner PC and let me tell you Radislav was awesomely fun to play. This seems to be the direction you wanted to take at the start when you picked a tier 3 class, but again tier 3 doesn't mean unable to be a finely tuned killing machine.

b) Help others to either learn how to optimize, or show them there's a world of options out there that can be used to enhance their characters both conceptually and mechanically. Would you rather have two guns, punch things and hit things with your bow, or plan your build to pave your way towards being Shooty McFace of the demonic bullet, Rocket Punching-things-from-afar-while-being-on-fire man and Magic Mike arrowbender? There's no reason you can't have a plain character and have the DM describe him as being awesome, but sometime being awesome can be much more awesome. This is generally my go-to approach.

I personally prefer b) much more than a). Unfortunately, b) is only really possible if you're playing at a "healthy" table where everyone likes to have a good time together and trusts each other, possibly one where you aren't branded as the munchkin no one likes, and either fellow players who are willing to learn the basics behind the numbers on their character sheets or who are ok getting explained the results of the numbers on their character sheets (possibly explained as briefly as possible). Yes, this method will require a bit of additional work on your part. As such it's best suited for DMs, as they should know all the ins and outs of their PCs anyway.

[Manyasone]

I really can't believe what I'm seeing here. He made an efficient aegis. Something I truly applaud. He uses this character to good effect even saying that he can't solo encounters, this emphasizing team play. He oneshotted a boss with a critical. It happens. A cr3 critter is not a boss fight for apl3. At least a cr5-6 is needed here. Everyone keeps saying he needs to tone down... Yet no one... Not a single soul makes a remark that he was attacked by a party member out of sheer spite... I am sorry. This is bs and as a dm I would not approve of that. The only way he can tone down is by not using initiator/akashic soul. That is my advice

[DeTess]

I really can't believe what I'm seeing here. He made an efficient aegis. Something I truly applaud. He uses this character to good effect even saying that he can't solo encounters, this emphasizing team play. He oneshotted a boss with a critical. It happens. A cr3 critter is not a boss fight for apl3. At least a cr5-6 is needed here. Everyone keeps saying he needs to tone down... Yet no one... Not a single soul makes a remark that he was attacked by a party member out of sheer spite... I am sorry. This is bs and as a dm I would not approve of that. The only way he can tone down is by not using initiator/akashic soul. That is my advice

I would be agreeing with you, if it wasn't for the OP's reaction to the first time someone suggested he toned the character down. He seems to be unwilling to accept his share of responsibility (and if your character is far stronger than that of the rest, that is your responsibility). If he brings that same 'I'm not doing anything wrong, you're all just envious of me' attitude to the table, I'm honestly not surprised tempers flared.

[Uncle Pine]

I really can't believe what I'm seeing here. He made an efficient aegis. Something I truly applaud. He uses this character to good effect even saying that he can't solo encounters, this emphasizing team play. He oneshotted a boss with a critical. It happens. A cr3 critter is not a boss fight for apl3. At least a cr5-6 is needed here. Everyone keeps saying he needs to tone down... Yet no one... Not a single soul makes a remark that he was attacked by a party member out of sheer spite... I am sorry. This is bs and as a dm I would not approve of that. The only way he can tone down is by not using initiator/akashic soul. That is my advice

The fact is, "your friends are ***** and your DM too" isn't great advice. Even though after reading the OP I believe this might well be the case. Spite is a tough beast to deal with and mechanical answers are easier to provide on a forum, which is why I think most people (myself included) picked that route when answering the thread.

[Andor13]

Ok, here's the good news. You're playing an Aegis. You need to do absolutely nothing to detune him, or shift him over to be more supporting. All you need to do is spend 10 minutes to change your customizations a little.

Swap out Elemental Flux for Golden Lion and Radiant Dawn. Use your maneuvers to give party-wide boosts, distribute healing, and your counters to save others from pain. You'll do a little less damage, but that's okay because it sounds like you're over-killing anyway.

[Elricaltovilla]

Drache64, There are things you can do to tone down your character without losing too much of the flavor and effectiveness. If you have a digital version of your character sheet (or want to post it here) to share, we can look at alternatives to your current maneuvers and abilities that could make you better fit in with your current party.

But what you really, really need to do is talk with your friends. Even if you don't believe you did something wrong, your friends are upset, and giving them a chance to explain why they were bothered will at least help you to understand their point of view. If they are your friends, you'll also have an opportunity to make your own counterpoints, but you need to be careful to make sure that you aren't coming off as whiny (which can be tricky, it's bit me in the butt before myself).

One of the things about the Aegis is that it comes together much quicker than most 1st party classes. DSP stuff tends to work well right out of the box, while Paizo characters usually need a few levels to get up and running. Things will most likely start to even out as you guys progress.

What you may want to do is bring your PoW stuff with you. Your friends may not know that there are options that will enable them to match your cool abilities as well.

For the Monk there's the Monk of the Silver Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype/) archetype, or he could switch to a Steelfist Commando (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando/) Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/) or an Aurora Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/archetypes/aurora-soul/) Mystic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/).

The Ranger also has an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/dreamscarred-press-ranger-archetypes/ambush-hunter-ranger-archetype), or he could try out the Ravenlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/harbinger/archetypes/ravenlord/) Harbinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/harbinger/) or one of the mounted archetypes if he'd prefer a horse-like companion.

There is no archetype for the Gunslinger, but a Desperado (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/desperado/) Privateer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) Warlord is a great gunslinger style character, as is a Gunsmoke Mystic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/mystic/archetypes/gunsmoke-mystic/) for more magical bullet styles.

[Drache64]

I'd like to thank everyone for their time and posts even if I disagree with the advice, I recognize you all took time to reply with helpful answers.

After talking to my group everyone thought the player who attacked me was out of line and welcomed the prospect of him not being part of our group any more.

Everyone said they were impressed with my character and the party members were encouraged to try and optimize their characters like I did mine.

The DM restated my character was cool, but asked what his weaknesses were. I explained I can only use my maneuvers once before I have to spend a full round recovering them. Which hurts my action economy. I likened my character to fireblight Ganon from breath of the wild, when his shield is up, throw a bomb at him then attack before he can recharge it. He agreed with the tactic and said he was excited to dig more interesting things out of the monsters manual.

[Efrate]

One thing about initiators in a party of martial characters is that you are better with less effort. They are designed to be fully fictional with casters and not be a dead weight needng buffs to be relevant. If they are base martial classes they won't compete unless they optimize very well.

Swap a few disciplines, focus on stuff like golden lion and silver crane. Switch your weapon to something like a basic longspear or a halberd. Focus on buffs,heals, and control and back off of damage. Damage is the way most newer players with less system mastery see effectiveness. Tank and support over damage. If they are 1d10 plus 4 at best and you are 3d8 plus 2d6 plus 7 you are massively outscaling their best without trying.

Have your monk look at unchained monk, your ranger look at some of the pow ranged disciplines, and your gunslinger as well. Assuming your group still wants to play with him.

If your a.c. is 20 how could a gunslinger not hit you when they can touch attack? I'm assuming plate? That's well within a level 3 budget.

[Drache64]

One thing about initiators in a party of martial characters is that you are better with less effort. They are designed to be fully fictional with casters and not be a dead weight needng buffs to be relevant. If they are base martial classes they won't compete unless they optimize very well.

Swap a few disciplines, focus on stuff like golden lion and silver crane. Switch your weapon to something like a basic longspear or a halberd. Focus on buffs,heals, and control and back off of damage. Damage is the way most newer players with less system mastery see effectiveness. Tank and support over damage. If they are 1d10 plus 4 at best and you are 3d8 plus 2d6 plus 7 you are massively outscaling their best without trying.

Have your monk look at unchained monk, your ranger look at some of the pow ranged disciplines, and your gunslinger as well. Assuming your group still wants to play with him.

If your a.c. is 20 how could a gunslinger not hit you when they can touch attack? I'm assuming plate? That's well within a level 3 budget.

He was hitting, I was just mitigating his damage to zero. He would hit with a d8+0. My autohypnosis was +10 which means I was always taking half damage from him, then Dr/2 so he could only ever do 1 point of damage with Max damage without a critical. Then with resilience you can pay 1pp to negate 2 damage.

But yeah, thanks for the recommendations, I think I just need to show them better class options to pick and perhaps also the path of war book. And I guess I may have to drop my favorite weapon in all of DND I seriously love the weighed greatsword. Or switch to a different stance that doesn't make it 3d8 base.

[MeimuHakurei]

I'm having trouble imagining a less effective build direction would truly achieve parity in terms of spotlight given how experienced and meticulous OP is with their characters, thus even a Tier 4/5 in that group could likely still come out on top unless they go full Basketweaving mode. Here's a few things to try out for you Drache:

-Have your DM take notes of the other player's accomplishments. It might be that your combat numbers make your contribution look much larger than it actually is.
-Encourage higher tier classes among your players. Base Monk is Tier 6, Gunslinger is Tier 5 and Ranger is Tier 4 - all of which are lower than you. Ranger is also quite the allrounder class in that the class performs average in most situations and not really having any moments of glory. Gunslinger needs many feats and levels before the damage builds really take off and gunfire is just about all the class can do. Monk needs certain archetypes or Unchained to be relevant and even then a great deal of optimization to mitigate the class' low damage output.
-Ask the DM to narratively focus the other PCs more by involving their background more frequently. In those situations, this may include emotional attachment of the PCs that your character doesn't have and organically moves into the background.

Also, isn't a Large Greatsword 3d6 rather than 3d8 damage?

[skunk3]

While your character might be fine balance-wise at a higher optimization game, for a regular casual game that character *is* way too OP. Taking half damage from attacks with a successful skill check in addition to DR/2 at level 3 as well as many other abilities both offensive and defensive means you're basically a god compared to the others. It also means that a smart DM would have enemies largely ignore your character and instead of focus on the others, saving you for last knowing that the other characters would be much easier to kill. Without seeing your full sheet I can't tell just how OP you are but judging what I'm reading here you're way ahead of the curve which would be fine if everyone else was too. Nobody wants to be in a group in which one person is uber powerful and trivializing everything.

[Elkad]

Also, isn't a Large Greatsword 3d6 rather than 3d8 damage?

He's using something called a Weighted Greatsword. No idea what book it's from, searching finds a lot of mention of it, and a lot of people asking "what book", but no source info.

[Angelmaker]

There was mentions of how to make a more effective support player, I'd look into that. It sounds pretty rad to be able to heal and tank and everything. :)

However, there is one thing which is absolutely problematic. To wuote from your original post drache 64:

At the end of our session one player had walked out after accusing me of god-moding and attacking me. He was very pissed when I told him I didn't want to attack him back but he knew I could 1 shot him whereas he was firing at me with both his pistols and couldn't do any damage.

------

Your game degraded into angry and frustrated PVP. How old is your group? Does your group think it's acceptable behaviour to turn on allies for no good reason at all? Did you handle it in characte or out of character? This event alone would be grounds for me as a GM to:

1) interrupt the game.
2) have a long and good talk into everyone's conscious to behave like grown ups.
3) dont metagame and do not let out of character problems seep into the game.
4) voice concerns about character power's level after the game. Explain how everyone's character works and if you cannot make a function group EVERYONE has to make new characters and not simply the brother of your figter, etc. - it's the players responsibility to come up with a functioning party as much as it is the GM's responsibility to make it work.

As A GM Im not wirried about an arms race. Players cannot win that against me. if i wanted your elan dead, i'd throw in a few hold monster/person spells and ignore your AC entirely. However im worried if players cannot work together with other characters because for out of game reasons.

No amount of characte tinkering or forum justification of your actions will solve this problem.

Tldr: you and your group need a moderated talk about group expectations.

[Drache64]

While your character might be fine balance-wise at a higher optimization game, for a regular casual game that character *is* way too OP. Taking half damage from attacks with a successful skill check in addition to DR/2 at level 3 as well as many other abilities both offensive and defensive means you're basically a god compared to the others. It also means that a smart DM would have enemies largely ignore your character and instead of focus on the others, saving you for last knowing that the other characters would be much easier to kill. Without seeing your full sheet I can't tell just how OP you are but judging what I'm reading here you're way ahead of the curve which would be fine if everyone else was too. Nobody wants to be in a group in which one person is uber powerful and trivializing everything.

Yeah the problem for me is I wanted to play a Tony Stark style character with bleeding edge armor (as seen in infinity war). I liked having my character be an unassuming person who says something quipy to a drunken brute at the bar. The brute picks up my character and throws him into a table. My character wipes the blood from his mouth and says "alright, let's do this the hard way" and suddenly epic looking armor appears on him. For me it's about the flavor of the character which comes with DR2/- at level 2 as a class ability. I picked the elemental discipline because at higher levels it gets a 30 foot line of energy like iron man's chest blast.



Also, isn't a Large Greatsword 3d6 rather than 3d8 damage?

Weighed greatsword is 2d8 medium, 3d8 large. I usually take it with my Orc Barbarian with monkey grip.

[Quertus]

I really can't believe what I'm seeing here. He made an efficient aegis. Something I truly applaud. He uses this character to good effect even saying that he can't solo encounters, this emphasizing team play. He oneshotted a boss with a critical. It happens. A cr3 critter is not a boss fight for apl3. At least a cr5-6 is needed here. Everyone keeps saying he needs to tone down... Yet no one... Not a single soul makes a remark that he was attacked by a party member out of sheer spite... I am sorry. This is bs and as a dm I would not approve of that. The only way he can tone down is by not using initiator/akashic soul. That is my advice


But I made sure to stick to my part of the map, when we were surrounded by zombies they all attacked a section of the map and I killed only my fair share of MOBs and with my abilities I can 1 shot most things but they all had multiple attacks for crowd control. I thought it was quite balanced because I could only pick off one thing at a time, and I let them know I couldn't solo the whole encounter, it had to be a team effort but they accused me of breaking the game.

At the end of our session one player had walked out after accusing me of god-moding and attacking me. He was very pissed when I told him I didn't want to attack him back but he knew I could 1 shot him whereas he was firing at me with both his pistols and couldn't do any damage.


Just because people are envious of my character doesn't mean I should change him.


All groups have their own rough power level, and yours is wildly in excess of what the other players are playing. The other players - and presumably the DM - are unhappy at how this unbalances the game.n.


After talking to my group everyone thought the player who attacked me was out of line and welcomed the prospect of him not being part of our group any more.

Everyone said they were impressed with my character and the party members were encouraged to try and optimize their characters like I did mine.

The DM restated my character was cool, but asked what his weaknesses were. I explained I can only use my maneuvers once before I have to spend a full round recovering them. Which hurts my action economy. I likened my character to fireblight Ganon from breath of the wild, when his shield is up, throw a bomb at him then attack before he can recharge it. He agreed with the tactic and said he was excited to dig more interesting things out of the monsters manual.

I'm glad to hear that the rest of your group is so reasonable. If I'm hearing you correctly, though, you only took out your fair share of the zombies, and only took out the boss with a lucky crit, right? If that is correct, do be very sure to impress upon you GM (and maybe the other players) those facts, lest the GM unreasonably, unfairly, and unrealistically overcompensate, and imbalance the game against you to where you are surely underperforming.

However, for future reference, if your friends are upset, it behooves you to do something. Not necessarily change your character - especially if he's actually fairly well balanced - but something to address their unhappiness.

In other words, @Manyasone, so much what you said.


Also... the tiers aren't real. At least not 95% of the time outside of the forums. A well optimized "T5" or maybe "T6" will outshine a casual "T1" player.

I'd love to hear you give this exact quote in every tier / caster vs muggle / whatever thread.


Swap out Elemental Flux for Golden Lion and Radiant Dawn. Use your maneuvers to give party-wide boosts, distribute healing, and your counters to save others from pain. You'll do a little less damage, but that's okay because it sounds like you're over-killing anyway.

So, if his character actually were overpowered, would there be any in character reason for his character to do this? Is it at all tactically sound?

[Andor13]

Yeah the problem for me is I wanted to play a Tony Stark style character with bleeding edge armor (as seen in infinity war).

Yeah, Aegis is pretty much PsIronman. I named mine Ferrus Wight...


So, if his character actually were overpowered, would there be any in character reason for his character to do this? Is it at all tactically sound?

Yes, of course. As he said, he was dropping one thing a round and the rest of the party was dropping more. That means he's doing overkill, and distributing his damage out to the rest of the team brings up the kill rate. Moreover, if his defenses are at the level where he's not taking damage, it's also sound to distribute some toughness to the rest of the party, it's better to be the least hurt person in a party of four, than to be the unhurt person in a party of 3 corpses and you. Especially given that his character has more than one panic button power in case he did take a big hit.

I mean, if he's RPing Tony Stark, spotlight hog, then I suppose he'd have no reason to do so, but if he's actually a part of a team and really cares when his under-aged chemical engineering student/protege dies, then yes.

[Drache64]

Well my character's back story was that he was a talented sorcerer apprenticing under a Craftsman of Wonderous Items. During a freak accident, he lost his connection to magic and later found he had a strange ability to summon this armor psionically.

His skills focus on crafting and spell craft and arcane knowledge to represent his backstory. He drinks a lot because he misses being a sorcerer and feels like a piece of him was cut out.

He is self centered but good hearted and protective. He has a lot of money mostly because he never needs to buy any equipment (didn't have to buy armor, sword was cheap and has Elan abilities to sustain himself) so he spends his money to impress people and seem good natured (but the whole tavern drinks, paying money to support a widow etc).

All that being said, his abilities focus mostly on him tinkering with his armor and sustaining himself so his money is free to be spent lavishly. Taking support abilities for the party is a bit outside his character as he finds himself a tank due to circumstances, he's used to being a self important spell caster focused on making magic equipment to sell for profit.

[Roa-rha]

Hey Drache, I was in a similar situation with my group a few years ago when we all first started playing DnD. I wanted to play a tanky character as well, so I picked crusader. The issue was similar to yours as one member felt I was too tanky and did too much damage, though I did not even optimize at all.

After trying to convince the other player to also play an initiator class (they were set on playing a fighter), I just purposefully played my character less optimally. I tried to create opportunities in combat where someone else could "off-tank" or do damage. I kept my build the same and held back on encounters by going for more teamwork or role-play stuff. If an encounter was becoming difficult then I turned up the heat accordingly. It seemed to work as there were no more complaints about my characters power. I recommend just dialing back some combat choices to let others shine; that way you keep your build, others are happy, and you can save the day if needed.

[Chronikoce]

Weighed greatsword is 2d8 medium, 3d8 large. I usually take it with my Orc Barbarian with monkey grip.

Is this a custom weapon? I've never heard of it and couldn't find it anywhere.

[Galacktic]

Weighted is a special property - I believe it's psionic. Phone posting, otherwise I'd grab the source. I believe it's DSP though, which seems kosher since he's playing an Aegis


E: I am incorrect. I have no clue where it's from, I was thinking of the Collision enhancement

[DeTess]

A quick google search for the weighted greatsword took me to a review of a 3rd party supplement for dnd 3.5 called 'arms and armor'.

On a more on-topic note, I'd just like to say that it's nice to see that most of OP's problems seem to have been solved by having a talk with his group.

[DarkSoul]

Bastion Press: Arms & Armor sourcebook. Looks like another reason not to use 3PP books, especially since the Jovar already exists. That one and the Harpbow from one of the Mongoose equipment books pretty much kill my desire to use anything not from WotC/Paizo.

That being said, maybe the OP could refrain from using unbalanced 3pp crap and pick something like a greatsword or jovar.

[Drache64]

Bastion Press: Arms & Armor sourcebook. Looks like another reason not to use 3PP books, especially since the Jovar already exists. That one and the Harpbow from one of the Mongoose equipment books pretty much kill my desire to use anything not from WotC/Paizo.

That being said, maybe the OP could refrain from using unbalanced 3pp crap and pick something like a greatsword or jovar.

Our group has typically accepted any 3.5 resource into Pathfinder, but regardless I don't think the issue was 3d8 vs 3d6. If I sat down and said "guys I've fixed all our problems now I'm only rolling 5d6+9 instead of 3d8+2d6+9" I don't think that would have been the source of the issue.

[King of Nowhere]

As much as your tanking is impressive, I think the main problem is the damage. If you're tanking, you're just doing your job. If you're also dealing lots of damage, you infringe in the other's territory. The key to play with characters of different power levels is specialization: it doesn't matter that they're less powerful overall because they do something for the team that you can't do as well as they do. If you tank AND you deal more damage than they do, it's a problem.

But it appears the problem got mostly fixed, so cheers!




That being said, maybe the OP could refrain from using unbalanced 3pp crap and pick something like a greatsword or jovar.
Imbalanced? just because it adds an average 2 damage? I assume you need a feat to use it, so using a feat to gain 2 damage is fine. It's what weapon specialization is. That thing is less overpowered crap than a good third of the published material. Heck, the aegis is overpowered crap, if we use the core martial classes as references.

[willoftheway]

That being said, maybe the OP could refrain from using unbalanced 3pp crap and pick something like a greatsword or jovar.

The idea that this is overpowered is laughable at best. The minor damage increase from the weapon is just that, minor. And frankly, vast quantities of 3PP stuff for Pathfinder is much better balanced than the vast majority of first party WotC/Paizo material.

On the subject of the OP... Sucks mang. But I think you've received plenty of advice to help fix the problems. Anything I could say has probably already been covered.

[Thirdtwin]

Yeah, if you're going to say that the weighted greatsword is the thing that kills 3rd party material for you when the character using it is an Aegis using Path of War material I kind of feel like the horse already got out of the barn before you got there. (not that I'm calling DSP's stuff broken.) I will say that the greatsword does have a surprisingly distorting effect on the game, since in all the games I've seen it allowed in, anybody even pretending to be a martial character would immediately bolt to get one, but it's a single weapon, one you can easily ban. In fact, if you've got the entire Arms and Armor book in use, and the only thing anyone pulls from it is a weighted greatsword, what does that say about everything else in it? Certainly that none of it is unambiguously better than normal 3e weapons and armor. Nobody has to use third party material if they don't want to, but acting like the probably hundreds of books worth of third party material for 3epf are all broken messes because of a single weapon from a single book by a single company just doesn't make sense.

[DarkSoul]

Imbalanced? just because it adds an average 2 damage? I assume you need a feat to use it, so using a feat to gain 2 damage is fine. It's what weapon specialization is. That thing is less overpowered crap than a good third of the published material. Heck, the aegis is overpowered crap, if we use the core martial classes as references.


The idea that this is overpowered is laughable at best. The minor damage increase from the weapon is just that, minor. And frankly, vast quantities of 3PP stuff for Pathfinder is much better balanced than the vast majority of first party WotC/Paizo material.


Yeah, if you're going to say that the weighted greatsword is the thing that kills 3rd party material for you when the character using it is an Aegis using Path of War material I kind of feel like the horse already got out of the barn before you got there. (not that I'm calling DSP's stuff broken.) I will say that the greatsword does have a surprisingly distorting effect on the game, since in all the games I've seen it allowed in, anybody even pretending to be a martial character would immediately bolt to get one, but it's a single weapon, one you can easily ban. In fact, if you've got the entire Arms and Armor book in use, and the only thing anyone pulls from it is a weighted greatsword, what does that say about everything else in it? Certainly that none of it is unambiguously better than normal 3e weapons and armor. Nobody has to use third party material if they don't want to, but acting like the probably hundreds of books worth of third party material for 3epf are all broken messes because of a single weapon from a single book by a single company just doesn't make sense.First, if you read what I said, you'll notice that it's another reason. As in "not the only".

Secondly, if the entire book is being used and the only thing anyone takes from it is a single item, even over every other weapon in the game then what does that say about the weapon?

For reference and to put incorrect assumptions to rest, the weighted greatsword is a 2h martial weapon: 2d8 (18-20/x2). No feat needed, unambiguously better than everything else in the game for damage dealing, especially at level 3.

[skunk3]

Yeah, 2d8 with a 18-20 crit range is clearly what anyone and everyone would want to take... and 3d8 for a large? Forget about it. That's just crazy powerful but then again I don't play PF.

[skunk3]

Not to sound like an ass, but the general impression that I get from the original post / poster is that he made a min/maxed character that is way more powerful than those of his peers, yet he thinks it's not his fault... lol. Just look at the subject of the original post. "I can't help it." Of course you can help it, you designed the character. Not only is the race/class stupidly tanky at low levels (as I said, I don't play PF but I don't know of anything in 3.5 that can compete in the same ways at the same level... did the DM even approve this?), you are also using a weapon that does tons of damage from some splatbook, so not only is this PC really tanky, they also do a crapload of damage. I'd be annoyed too if I were in the group and I felt like I didn't get the memo to powergame to the high heavens.

To me this seems like a case of a lack of meaningful communication regarding expectations on all fronts but I digress.

[Elkad]

Weighted greatsword would be OK if it was Exotic I think, but it's Martial.

It fits with Spiked Chain, Greathorn Hammer, and the other very few good exotics (most of them are junk, weapon focus would be a better use of a feat).

[Warchon]

At the end of the day, this sounds like a social issue.
You're not wrong to be attached to your character, especially after putting work and love into it.
Try to create a space where you can talk to your party about it without getting defensive, as it seems clear you feel a little attacked here.
I feel that there would be some value in you offering to help your friends improve their own characters rather than asking you to bring yours down. The tricky part will be doing so without coming off as condescending (Well, since I know SO MUCH MORE than you and you know almost nothing, let me show you what to do) or getting as possessive over their characters as you are over theirs (No, you can't have it your way, have it mine).
But be prepared for the possibility that they may not accept this. It is entirely possible you may be faced with the choice of shelving the character, possibly for future use when your friends are more experienced at making their own, or damaging your friendship over this and quite possibly losing the respect of the group entirely.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in reference to your title line, "My character is outshining the others and I can't help it," yes you can help it. You are choosing not to.

[Arcanist]

This kind of happened to me too. I ended up making a really bad choice and more or less walked out of one of the better circle of friends I had. The DM, and my friend at the time, even asked me to play at "THAT" level, and when I did, he, his wife, and his friend, all felt that I couldn't tone it down despite them asking me to play at "THAT" level and rather than deal with them, or their grevances, or whatever, I decided to simply walk away. At the time, I had other things I could occupy myself with, but eventually I got nostalgic for those fun days of screaming at the dice, ordering out chinese or hotdogs or pizza, or whatever, and just laughing at really bad jokes.

In hindsight, all I had to do was sit at my phone browsing RedditIsFun a bit longer and occasionally fling out a buff or a heal or summon a flanking partner and I imagine they would have all been hunky-dory. Instead, I decided to get insulted and leave. It was my fault and I've learned a lot since then and did a lot of growing up. It is a damned shame that I cannot change anything from back then, but such is life.

I get that you're attatched to your character, and might feel that without you, next to nothing would get done, your friends might suffer the annoyance of dying, but I imagine the annoyance of dying and literally nothing getting done is significantly less painful than being an outcast, not having a group, and not having friends anymore. Might sound like emotional blackmail, but it is REALLY that simple.

[King of Nowhere]

For reference and to put incorrect assumptions to rest, the weighted greatsword is a 2h martial weapon: 2d8 (18-20/x2). No feat needed, unambiguously better than everything else in the game for damage dealing, especially at level 3.

Ok, then it's unbalanced crap. Not because it is exceedingly powerful - the difference is still mild - but because it is so clearly better than everything else that nobody would ever want to take another weapon. They could have made it exotic, and even then increased damage AND critical is way too much.

That said, there is a lot of first party material that is unbalanced crap for being unambiguously better than everything else, but few people agree it should be banned. I am talkig about stuff like the fleshraker for aniimal companion, or some spells that are just improved versions of core ones.

[ExLibrisMortis]

My character is outshining the others and I can't help it," yes you can help it. You are choosing not to.
He's already going out of his way to reduce his total equipment, avoid other people's objectives in combat, and generally not being too present outside the tanking/single-hit burst niche. His DM then sends a CR 3 threat as a "boss" monster against an ECL 3 party, and it gets wasted by a lucky crit by the burst damage specialist--big whoop, that's what they do. If the DM didn't prepare for the character to do that, they didn't read the sheet well enough.

At some point, it's the DM forcing you to outshine the party, by sending encounters that are just tailor-made to your build (at low levels, lots of weak mobs is great for anyone with DR). It's not difficult to counter a tank with one big hit per turn; at the very least, a simple 1/turn "do something to opponent's attack"-type ability would be expected on a boss monster, exactly to avoid lucky crits dropping your boss fight into the proverbial lava.

[ericgrau]

Glad to hear you're talking with you're group and working with them to get this resolved, and both you and them are making changes. That's the main thing. Keep at it and I think this will go well.

[Florian]

Lessons to learn:

The only actual rule worth noticing is the social contract. Disregard/Break that, you're out. In this case, the guy starting PVP, but nearly also Drache.

Tiers without understanding what they really mean in useless. They give a ceiling for how heigh you could possible go (with class features), that's it, but they only hint at what the standard is or how low you could actually go.