3.5 Why no scaling on sleep?

[retaliation08]

It seems so silly that Sleep doesn't scale. It loses most of its power after only a few levels because of the inflexible HD limitations.

Am I missing a crucial design purpose behind this? What is wrong with removing HD restriction from the spell?

[Talakeal]

It seems so silly that Sleep doesn't have a save. It scales poorly and the only defense a creature has against it is having 5HD (or more HD than the guy next to him.

Am I missing a crucial design purpose behind this? What is wrong with giving Sleep a will save and removing HD from the spell?

What edition is this? Sleep does allow a save in every edition that I am aware of.


Edit: NM, 2E and 5E both don't allow a save. If I had to guess why I would say that the idea is that the HP limit is supposed to make it function like a pseudo-damage effect rather than a true save or lose.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm looking at the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) as well as PF SRD (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep/) and it has a save.

[retaliation08]

Haha, silly me. I was crossing signals with 5e and 3.5. I'll amend the OP.

[Karl Aegis]

They needed to use more book space on an identical spell two levels higher that does the same thing, but doubled in power.

[retaliation08]

So a sorcerer who wants to use sleep effects has 2 spells known occupied at levels 6 and 7 until he can trade Sleep away at 8 :(

[theblasblas]

How would you scale it exactly? It depends largely on how you would scale it. A 1st level spell isn't supposed to be capable of ending higher level encounters. Sleep is meant to be strong for the levels wherein 1st level spells are still a valuable resource. It's esse

I can't really come up with a way of scaling it that wouldn't make it completely useless or overpowered.

[InvisibleBison]

How would you scale it exactly? It depends largely on how you would scale it. A 1st level spell isn't supposed to be capable of ending higher level encounters. Sleep is meant to be strong for the levels wherein 1st level spells are still a valuable resource. It's esse

I can't really come up with a way of scaling it that wouldn't make it completely useless or overpowered.

I think it would work if the total amount of HD scaled, but no creature with more than 4 HD could be affected, regardless of how many total HD of creatures can be affected.

[NerdHut]

How would you scale it exactly? It depends largely on how you would scale it. A 1st level spell isn't supposed to be capable of ending higher level encounters. Sleep is meant to be strong for the levels wherein 1st level spells are still a valuable resource. It's esse

I can't really come up with a way of scaling it that wouldn't make it completely useless or overpowered.

The best I would be able to do is 4 HD + 1 per caster level capped at 10 HD, and for Deep Slumber 10 HD + 1 per caster level capped at 20 HD. But that doesn't feel super great.

As for the OP, unless there's already another level of the sleep spells above Deep Slumber, I'd probably just homebrew new ones if someone wanted them bad enough. The lowest level spells aren't meant to scale particularly high. That's just how this system works.

[retaliation08]

Im not sure.
Just removing the HD might make it too strong for someone with spell focus, and hieghten, and a high casting stat.

Scaling the HD/CL or 2CL might work.

Wizard gets Sleep at 1 (4HD/CL) and Deep Slumber at 5 (10HD or 5HD/CL ).

If we scaled Sleep as 4HD + 1/CL, it would scale and actually be weaker (affecting 9HD) than Deep Slumber when it becomes available.

Seems like there might need to be a limit to the max HD creature it can affect, though. I think that might be what the designers were thinking too.

Another thought is that a creature gets a +1/HD bonus to the save.

[retaliation08]

From the DM perspective, not having a cap on the highest HD that can be affected is problematic but manageable. Throwing in lots of mooks can soak up the HD pool to protect the BBEG. Plus tons of critters have bonuses or immunities to sleep or other enchantments.

Could also cap the highest HD affected at CL. So even Sleep at level 1 would affect 5HD of creatures of 1HD or less.

[theblasblas]

From the DM perspective, not having a cap on the highest HD that can be affected is problematic but manageable. Throwing in lots of mooks can soak up the HD pool to protect the BBEG. Plus tons of critters have bonuses or immunities to sleep or other enchantments.

Hahaha, or the BBEG could just walk around with small pouches filled with individual rats tied to his waist XD Are there any other spells with a "Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first." clause?

In any case, a 10 HD limit still seems to be a bit much at lower levels, and is still useless at higher levels. Sure it makes sense if you compare it to Deeper Slumber, but it still outshines most 2nd level spells and some 3rd level spells.

[retaliation08]

Table updated to show 4hd+ 1HD/ level; highest HD affected is 1/2 the total (rounded down)



Caster Level
Total HD Affected
Highest HD affected


1
5 HD
2 HD


2
6 HD
3 HD


3
7 HD
3 HD


4
8 HD
4 HD


5
9 HD
4 HD


6
10 HD
5 HD


7
11 HD
5 HD


8
12 HD
6 HD


9
13 HD
6 HD


10
14 HD
7 HD


11
15 HD
7 HD


12
16 HD
8 HD


13
17 HD
8 HD


14
18 HD
9 HD


15
19 HD
9 HD


16
20 HD
10 HD


17
21 HD
10 HD


18
22 HD
11 HD


19
23 HD
11 HD


20
24 HD
12 HD



My table-fu is weak, but I don't think the table was that necessary to begin with.

It's not elegant in simplicity, but I think it works.

I also feel like this turned into a post that should maybe be in the Homebrew forum...

[theblasblas]

Hmmmm, capping the highest HD affected at 1 HD/CL with a maximum of 10 HD per creature could work. I still wouldn't allow an uncapped highest HD affected as that would allow something like a Level 20 Sorc soloing a Balor using only 1st level spells.

Most high HD enemies that don't advance through class levels are usually large or bigger anyway, so they can't really surround themselves with mooks since sleep is only a 10-ft burst centered on a grid intersection.

Edit:

Oh I like your other idea better. Yeah, 1/2 maximum total HD seems to be good a way to limit the highest HD affected.

[ericgrau]

It's one of the best 1st level spells. IIRC they nerfed the casting time in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 because it was the best. And I think part of this is D&D tradition; it's almost supposed to be the best or one of the best. But they can't have that continuing on in high level. A few 1st level spells are likewise made interesting so that 1st level characters can have something useful, but limited somehow so that they aren't too good to be 1st level. Elves are immune to it practically as a low level army balancing factor. That and ghouls. A lot of this comes from D&D minis, but also in-campaign army battles too.

The simple way to do this on sleep was to make it not scale. So you aren't wondering as much why a strong AoE SoL is a first level spell. But I can see the reason for wanting it to not have such a harsh cutoff and become suddenly useless. How about letting it scale but making it relatively weak as you progress? And deep slumber could be changed as well to help it intermesh with sleep better to allow a stronger option.

I think the above table makes it a little weak at level 1-2. It's still often going to be awesome, but it's often going to be useless too. In one of maybe 2-3 spell slots. So then you're totally screwed. Then it's a bit strong as it progresses. At caster level 3 it's probably on par with glitterdust, with advantages (range, duration, effect type) and disadvantages (casting time, ally can end with an action, minor HD limits) compared to that spell. Too much for a 1st. How about flat 3 HD + 1 HD per 2 CL. Capped at 10 HD. Total and highest. Still great at levels 1-2. Remains relevant but tapers off in usefulness as you get to high level. At its cap you're CL 14 and you weren't using it often anyway, but it was still barely effective and ok for a 1st. Great non-lethal solution to angry weaklings too.

Deep slumber 4th level spell, 10 + CL HD, 20' radius, otherwise as sleep. As it was it was really hard to affect a 2nd creature, plus it had the same long casting time and a nerfed range. At level 5-6 many foes are large, immune, or have 6+ HD. So often it's a single target SoL with many foes immune, long casting time and close range. Any significant single foe is likely to be 11+ HD and flat out immune too. Not good for a 3rd level spell. 17+ HD & good AoE as a 4th level spell is a more aggressive spell that's often just enough to get a 2nd foe. And target major foes too. But the long casting time, many foes immune, easy way for a minion to end it on a BBEG, HD capping #targets, and SR yes help keep it in check and fair for the level. Sleep is only doing 6-7 HD around the same time. So while sleep is still somewhat useful and not making the sorcerer mad he's stuck with it, it's a good time to phase in something better in a higher level slot.

[Pinkie Pyro]

another possible solution: no HD cap, the spell has a +2 bonus to the DC(or +5 for deep slumber) but you add your HD total as a bonus against the save. so casting sleep at a 9 HD creature effectively gives it a +7 against the spell, so it's not likely to affect it, but it's still a possibility, and since it's AOE, you still might knock out a few higher HD creatures grouped up of they roll badly.

[Nifft]

Table updated to show 4hd+ 1HD/ level; highest HD affected is 1/2 the total (rounded down)

That seems quite reasonable.


I was going to suggest something like letting higher-HD targets be affected but only if you're not in combat yet, or if the target is Fatigued / Exhausted... but that would need the HD cap to scale anyway.

[Dimers]

Hiss of Sleep, a 7th-level spell in Spell Compendium, is uncapped. A very effective spell (with Enchantment's standard limitation: it's mind-affecting).

[theblasblas]

Hiss of Sleep, a 7th-level spell in Spell Compendium, is uncapped. A very effective spell (with Enchantment's standard limitation: it's mind-affecting).

About this spell, the original version in Draconomicon requires the target to not be able to see you, however the version in the Spell Compendium does not state that in the spell description but references it in its fluff. Do you still need to be hidden from sight to cast this spell on someone?

[Dimers]

Depends on the DM. Some treat the italic text as rules and some don't. The default assumption in the Playground would be that it's just flavortext.

[heavyfuel]

Depends on the DM. Some treat the italic text as rules and some don't. The default assumption in the Playground would be that it's just flavortext.

Regardless of the DM's position, treating it as a rule is actually beneficial to this spell as it's explicitly a whisper instead of the usual "strong voice" required for Vocal components.

Very good spell for infiltration scenarios.

[Calthropstu]

For pathfinder, mythic deep slumber goes up to 20hd. Since deep slumber itself is a 4th lvl spell, I see no reason a 6th or 7th level spell couldn't be crafted to hit lvl 20s.

[ericgrau]

About this spell, the original version in Draconomicon requires the target to not be able to see you, however the version in the Spell Compendium does not state that in the spell description but references it in its fluff. Do you still need to be hidden from sight to cast this spell on someone?

I wouldn't ever ignore the flavor text, however this flavor text looks more like an example of using it and not a requirement at all. If it wasn't for the Draconomicon version I'd have no idea what you were talking about. Like it's saying hey, maybe you'd want to cast this from a hiding place. Actual most of the time flavor text is an example of using it.


Regardless of the DM's position, treating it as a rule is actually beneficial to this spell as it's explicitly a whisper instead of the usual "strong voice" required for Vocal components.

Very good spell for infiltration scenarios.

So I'd also agree that the verbal component for this spell is a whisper and is an exception to the strong voice rule. However "your words taking on a sonorous drone" tells me the whisper isn't so low that it's inaudible. I'd allow a listen check so that anyone who passed their will save could figure out "the caster is over there". Listen says "people whispering" is DC 15, so I'd go with that plus distance penalties.

[Nifft]

So I'd also agree that the verbal component for this spell is a whisper and is an exception to the strong voice rule. However "your words taking on a sonorous drone" tells me the whisper isn't so low that it's inaudible. I'd allow a listen check so that anyone who passed their will save could figure out "the caster is over there". Listen says "people whispering" is DC 15, so I'd go with that plus distance penalties.

To accommodate both, you could have the verbal component be a whispered hiss which can co-mingle with regular speech -- so if you cast the spell while talking "your words [take] on a sonorous drone" due to the sibilant hiss.

If you're not talking, you just do the hiss.

[retaliation08]

Thats creepy parseltongue haha. Reminds me of Hiss from Disney's Robin Hood.

[Starbuck_II]

How would you scale it exactly? It depends largely on how you would scale it. A 1st level spell isn't supposed to be capable of ending higher level encounters. Sleep is meant to be strong for the levels wherein 1st level spells are still a valuable resource. It's esse

I can't really come up with a way of scaling it that wouldn't make it completely useless or overpowered.

Not really, here is how I'd do it:
Sleep

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]


Level:
Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1

Components:
V, S, M

Casting Time:
1 round

Range:
Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Area:
One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst

Duration:
1 min./level

Saving Throw:
Will negates

Spell Resistance:
Yes

A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 3+ 1 Hit Dice of creatures per level (Max 3+20 at level 20). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. No single creature with more than 5 HD is affected.

Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

Changes:
No single creature with more than 5 HD is affected. Instead of 4 HD, it affects 3+ 1 Hit Dice of creatures per level (Max 3+20 at level 20).


Deep Slumber:
Changes:
No single creature with more than 10 HD is affected. Instead of 10 HD, it affects 3+ 2 Hit Dice of creatures per level (Max 3+40 at level 20).

So at level 5 when you get it, it affects 12 HD.

[Jay R]

Sleep is a useful basic spell for first level wizards, but isn't that great for higher ones. That's not a problem.

Improving the value of a spell might be necessary if:
1. Wizards are under-powered, or
2. Nobody uses the spell.

Neither condition obtains. There's no problem here to fix.

[Morty]

Sleep is an encounter-ending spell on low levels that has a unique balancing factor to make it all but useless later on. That's not a good thing, but then there's no real consistency on how useful low-level spells should be as you go up in levels. And at the end of the day I don't think a 1st level spell that can take several opponents out of the fight is a good idea anyway.

[Jay R]

Sleep is an encounter-ending spell on low levels that has a unique balancing factor to make it all but useless later on. That's not a good thing, but then there's no real consistency on how useful low-level spells should be as you go up in levels.

It's only encounter-ending if the DM fails to account for it when designing scenarios. Ideally, it takes a melee the party would lose down to a threatening but winnable melee.


That's not a good thing, but then there's no real consistency on how useful low-level spells should be as you go up in levels.

And there shouldn't be. Some low-level spells are always necessary - read magic, identify, etc. Some, like sleep, are for low-level problems. They shouldn't scale the same way.


And at the end of the day I don't think a 1st level spell that can take several opponents out of the fight is a good idea anyway.

A first level Fighter can take several low-enough-level opponents out of a fight. A first level cleric can take several low-enough-level undead out of the fight. Why shouldn't a first-level wizard have the same ability?

I consider sleep to be an well-designed spell. Slightly over-powered for the under-powered first level wizard, but not overbalancing for the higher-level wizard.

The "problem" people are trying to fix here is exactly what I think makes it an elegant design for a low-level spell.

[retaliation08]

The problem I am trying to fix is emulating a brass dragons sleep gas on a Bard with existing mechanics without unbalancing everything.

[Starbuck_II]

Sleep is an encounter-ending spell on low levels that has a unique balancing factor to make it all but useless later on. That's not a good thing, but then there's no real consistency on how useful low-level spells should be as you go up in levels. And at the end of the day I don't think a 1st level spell that can take several opponents out of the fight is a good idea anyway.

Color Spray still works unlike sleep at higher levels (no HD Limit, just less effects).
Extended Color spray is a very strong 2nd level spell (few 2nd level can match, Pyrotechnics if near flame comptes well though).

[Jay R]

The problem I am trying to fix is emulating a brass dragons sleep gas on a Bard with existing mechanics without unbalancing everything.

If you're trying to do it with existing mechanics, then don't use the sleep spell. The existing mechanics for that spell don't work like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It was my understanding this scales like hold, charm, and dominate; by taking higher level bits of the chain.

Sleep
Deep slumber
Symbol of sleep (in a box, obviously).