Conflicting Soulmelds

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Looking into a melee build i noticed something that has me wondering something.

Im aware I can have only 1 claw attack and typically it says if damage is one or the other based on which is better but.


Sphinx Claws: Totem Bind effect: Hands grow claws do 1d8 damage. +1 enhancement to attack and damage per point of essentia invested


Girallon Arms : Totem Bind effect: You gain four claws that deal 1d4 damage each. +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls per point of essentia invested.

If both of these are bound. do i use the Girallon effect? or does the Sphinx claws take effect only for my hands leaving the extra "2 hands/arms" dealing 1d4 damage?

[BowStreetRunner]

How are you binding two Soulmelds to your Totem at the same time?

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Double Chakra. When this feat is selected, choose a chakra to which you can bind soulmelds. Two of your shaped soulmelds can occupy (and be bound to) that chakra simultaneously. This counts as two chakra binds

And as a totemist it allows the totem to be selected as a Chakra point

[BowStreetRunner]

My first instinct would have been to say that you need to choose one effect - either 2x1d8 claws or 4x1d4 claws - each round of combat and use that. But I honestly like your way better (4 claws, 2x1d8 and 2x1d4). However, this is just my gut feeling. I'm not finding any specific rule that I can apply here in either case. (For some reason, they left out arms in the stacking rules. Go figure!)

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Well i was looking at the text specifically. One says you gain 4 claws. so my 2 arms/hands +2 clawed arms.
The other says your hands grow claws.

So i have 2 hands that gain claws. and 2 arms that has claws.

Just figured it was sort of logically. but i know that isnt always what rules/raw/rai works. so hence why im here asking lol

[Falontani]

There is a picture in the book somewhere (I can't recall where) of the Girallon Arms bound to a chakra. It grew 4 mystical blue arms. So any creature with 2 claws should be able to just use the 1d4 claws as well as their normal claws without effort.

[BowStreetRunner]

For me the confusing part is that the Girallon Arms effect gives you one primary and three secondary natural attacks. Sphinx Claws allows you to use its claws as natural weapons without specifying, so by default this would be two primary attacks ("The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack"SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons))


There is a picture in the book somewhere (I can't recall where) of the Girallon Arms bound to a chakra. It grew 4 mystical blue arms. So any creature with 2 claws should be able to just use the 1d4 claws as well as their normal claws without effort.It's MoI p 67 and the picture shows two normal and two blue arms. But this is just the artist's interpretation so...

[Nifft]

There is a picture in the book somewhere (I can't recall where) of the Girallon Arms bound to a chakra. It grew 4 mystical blue arms. So any creature with 2 claws should be able to just use the 1d4 claws as well as their normal claws without effort.

This picture perhaps?

https://i.imgur.com/UKzcIa1.jpg

That would tend to support the 2x1d8 + 2x1d4 proposition.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

So rules have a missing spot and the look of said execution of the arm effect would fit the interpataion of 2x 1d8s and 2x1d4s.

So it looks like its going to be a Run it by the Dm in the bottom line hu?

[Venger]

Looking into a melee build i noticed something that has me wondering something.

Im aware I can have only 1 claw attack and typically it says if damage is one or the other based on which is better but.


Sphinx Claws: Totem Bind effect: Hands grow claws do 1d8 damage. +1 enhancement to attack and damage per point of essentia invested


Girallon Arms : Totem Bind effect: You gain four claws that deal 1d4 damage each. +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls per point of essentia invested.

If both of these are bound. do i use the Girallon effect? or does the Sphinx claws take effect only for my hands leaving the extra "2 hands/arms" dealing 1d4 damage?

you're paying for both melds, you get the bound effects of both melds. you have 4 1d4 claws and 2 1d8 claws.

[Yan Korlat]

Right. You do get both sets of claws. However, you can only make one natural weapon attack with each limb, unless specifically excepted, so you can attack with 2x1d4+either 2x1d4 or 2x1d8.

Complex situation, though

[Venger]

Right. You do get both sets of claws. However, you can only make one natural weapon attack with each limb, unless specifically excepted, so you can attack with 2x1d4+either 2x1d4 or 2x1d8.

Complex situation, though

No such rule exists.

Girallon arms give 4 claws, and sphinx claws give 2 claws. If you bind them both, you get 6 claws.

[BowStreetRunner]

No such rule exists.

Girallon arms give 4 claws, and sphinx claws give 2 claws. If you bind them both, you get 6 claws.

This would only be true if Girallon Arms gives you 4 claws in addition to your own natural limbs. However, if it gives you 4 claws - two on your own hands and two on an extra pair of arms - then you cannot use both the Girallon claws on your own hands as well as the Sphinx claws that are also on your own hands. It would be the equivalent to wielding two daggers in the same hand, or wearing two separate spiked gauntlets on the same hand and expecting an additional attack. So the question of whether the Sphinx claws occupy the same limbs as one pair of the Girallon claws is absolutely critical to determining the number of attacks.

Of course, these questions become even more problematic if the Totemist is also a Thri-Kreen who already begins with four hands before applying either Soulmeld.

[Venger]

This would only be true if Girallon Arms gives you 4 claws in addition to your own natural limbs. However, if it gives you 4 claws - two on your own hands and two on an extra pair of arms - then you cannot use both the Girallon claws on your own hands as well as the Sphinx claws that are also on your own hands. It would be the equivalent to wielding two daggers in the same hand, or wearing two separate spiked gauntlets on the same hand and expecting an additional attack. So the question of whether the Sphinx claws occupy the same limbs as one pair of the Girallon claws is absolutely critical to determining the number of attacks.

Of course, these questions become even more problematic if the Totemist is also a Thri-Kreen who already begins with four hands before applying either Soulmeld.

Yes, that's how girallon arms works. It grants you 4 claws.

They don't say anything about capping you at 4 claws if you have extra claws from other sources such as race or other melds. Melds that do this, such as landshark boots, or wormtail belt, specify this in their rules.

You seem to be basing this on the illustration of girallon arms instead of the actual rules. Art ≠ RAW.

There is no question regarding that. Melds only occupy the slot they are shaped to. Sphinx claws occupies the hands chakra, and girallon arms occupies the arms chakra. The totem chakra is not a body slot, and op has already explained he has double chakra, so both of those melds can be bound to the totem chakra.

[Troacctid]

The actual rules do in fact say you get two additional arms (not four), so the illustration is 100% correct in this regard.

How many claw attacks you can make is ultimately a matter of DM discretion—in this case mainly because Sphinx Claws doesn't actually say how many claw attacks it gives you.

[animewatcha]

Fluffery if it matters any

Incarnum coalesces around your arms and upper torso, forming
blue-white fur that seems to enhance your arm and chest muscles.
It also extends from your fi ngers to form ghostly claws that, despite
their insubstantial appearance, help you gain purchase while
climbing or grappling.

Incarnum forms two additional, powerful arms that spring out
from your ribs. These spirit arms mirror the movements of your
real arms. All four of your arms are tipped with long claws that no
longer seem ghostly, but quite real—and quite sharp.

So there is a 'basis' for 4 additional claws. Girallon arms however has a bit of a restriction on its claw attacks. Up to 3 claw attacks ( presumably from it's own soulmeld only ) can be done as secondary following either primary claw or attack with weapon. Also, if shield is in your offhand, you can't use any secondary claw attacks ( most likely assuming that this soulbind is the source ). So at best, you wouldn't get 6 attacks, more like 5. Unless of the sphinx claws was used as a secondary.

-edit- also, sphinx claws has restriction of cannot hold item in hand and make claw attack with that same hand at the same time. No such restriction for girallon.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

With it being totemist I was planning on doing all melee. 4 claws with charge pounce off of soulmelds with natural weapon boosting.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think the strongest arguments can be made for one of the following options:


A) Girallon Arms gives you two additional arms, and binding them to your totem gives all four of your arms claws that do 1d4 damage. Sphinx Claws give your own hands claws that do 1d8 damage. So in total you have two arms that do 1d8 damage or 1d4 damage (your choice), and two that do 1d4 damage.


B) Girallon Arms gives you two additional arms, and binding them to your totem gives all four of your arms claws that do 1d4 damage. Sphinx Claws give all of your hands claws that do 1d8 damage. So in total you have four arms that do 1d8 damage or 1d4 damage (your choice).


C) Girallon Arms gives you two additional arms, and binding them to your totem gives all four of your arms claws that do 1d4 damage. Sphinx Claws give your own hands claws that do 1d8 damage. You can choose to use either effect each round, either having two claw attacks at 1d8 damage, or four claw attacks at 1d4 damage.

There is also a cheesy option D that says you get four claw attacks from Girallon Arms plus two more claw attacks from Sphinx Claws. But I find this one hard to swallow.

In any case, the Sphinx Claws are designated Natural Weapons without consideration for whether they are Primary or Secondary, while the Girallon Arms are clearly designated with one as Primary and the other three as Secondary. So I think if you use the Girallon Arms during an attack you only get one Primary attack, while if you choose not to use them you would get two Primary attacks with Sphinx Claws.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Want to thank you all for giving input and your thoughts into the posts. I'll run this by my Dm and let em see what everyone has been saying and see how things turn out for me. Thank you all