How on earth do you optimize this?

[Yan Korlat]

Hi All!

Thinking about my ideas for my next game after an unfortunate TPK. It will be a high level, high op game, and I am interested in how to optimize this ability that I will gain access to:

Sword of Light (Su): A tulani can create a +4 brilliant energy holy longsword at will as a free action. If the tulani dies or loses physical contact with the sword, the sword disappears instantly.

For those who are curious, this comes from celestial channeling, and the DM has signed off.

Now, what is the best way to make this go boom? I will have power attack, but very tight feat/level room. Post any suggestions, however, and I will see whether I can work them in.

I was thinking two weapon fighting, but it is really feat intensive.

Any way to break a weapon to deal extra damage? I can always create another.

Please no quintessence abuse.

Any ideas?


EDIT- I am more interested in potential. Assume half of 20th WBL, with more if necessary. After all, I don't need to buy a weapon. I am a human. Optimize for damage potential, or any cool move you want.

[ExLibrisMortis]

My first thought is: throw these things through a wall. You can create them as a free action, so you don't have any problems with Quick Draw, and they're brilliant energy, so they ignore nonliving matter.

Of course, then there's the "lose physical contact" clause, so you'd have to melee through a wall, which is harder to do. However, you might be able to get cover by bringing an undead/construct/wall to stand in front of you; you can increase your reach by becoming Large.

[Yan Korlat]

My first thought is: throw these things through a wall. You can create them as a free action, so you don't have any problems with Quick Draw, and they're brilliant energy, so they ignore nonliving matter.

Unfortunately, they disappear as soon as I loose contact with them.

[Falontani]

what level are we optimizing for? what gold count? how are you getting that ability? what race?

[Arcanist]

A tulani
[...]
For those who are curious, this comes from celestial channeling, and the DM has signed off.

Now, what is the best way to make this go boom?

Well, you're getting a whole lot more than that fancy laser sword. You're getting:

Empowered Chain Lightning, Mass Charm Monster, Cure Serious Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Thoughts, Dispel Magic, Divine Favor, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Major Image, POLYMORPH ANY OBJECT, Righteous smite, GREATER TELEPORT, Telekinesis, and Wall of Force, all at will. As well Heal, Meteor, Swarm, Power Word: Kill, and TIME STOP once a day for a little more than nothing.

All of this aside, you want to focus mostly on your sword?

[Yan Korlat]

Well... yes :)

Actually, I have already realized the potential of the above, and decided to only exploit it mildly. However, I have never heard of anything like this ability before, so I want to try to figure out how to exploit it.

[RaiKirah]

Add on the Multi-headed template to get Superior Multiweapon Fighting and then get some extra arms. You get full iteratives with each arm.

[Blackhawk748]

You got a +10 sword for free, thats 200k you just saved. Id say thats already fairly optimized.

[InvisibleBison]

Sword of Light (Su): A tulani can create a +4 brilliant energy holy longsword at will as a free action. If the tulani dies or loses physical contact with the sword, the sword disappears instantly.

The ability doesn't say anything about where you can create the sword. Thus, you can get the sword to last indefinitely by creating it not in physical contact with you and then never touching it (or dying, though I assume you wouldn't want to do that anyway). Alternatively, you can create a sword - or a whole bunch of swords, since it's a free action to create them and there's no limit to how many you can create - directly above an enemy. I don't know exactly what effect having several hundred very magical longswords fall on one's head would be, but I doubt it would be pleasant.

Admittedly, this is fairly blatantly ignoring the intent of the ability, so it might not be a good idea.

[King of Nowhere]

I don't know of any way you can exploit being able to reform your sword at will.

That said, I'm considering if you have a sword that ignores nonliving matter, then you may pick up a tower shield and use it for total cover? the other guy can't attack you, but your sword goes through your shield and you can attack just fine.
Meh. Probably power attacing with two hands is better anyway

[Bakkan]

If forming the sword counts as drawing it, could you optimize using Iaijutsu Focus multiple times a round? It gets you at most +9d6 damage per attack. Whether or not that's relevant depends on the optimization level of your table.

[Quertus]

Live inside a bubble.

Create a glass bubble, complete with secret door for entrance. Pay super epic level spellcaster to give it crazy hardness. Melee from inside bubble.

Nothing can melee you back, nothing can get LoE to you, etc.

[Arcanist]

Well... yes :)

That's fine. It's fun to experiment :smallsmile:


Actually, I have already realized the potential of the above, and decided to only exploit it mildly. However, I have never heard of anything like this ability before, so I want to try to figure out how to exploit it.

I can say for one thing with some level of confidence, you're definitely gonna wanna go as a Thri-Kreen and focus on Multiweapon Fighting. Two-weapon fighting isn't that good and, to be perfectly frank neither is multiweapon fighting, but at the very least you're making use of your fancy sword, of which (at least to me) seems you can conjur forth as many as you can hold. It is unfortunate that they're longswords and not daggers or any other Tiger Claw weapons.

On the high and reasonable chance your DM says "Nah, its only one sword", you can always just pick up a Tower Shield, hide behind it for total cover, and poke at your enemies from behind it.

EDIT:


If forming the sword counts as drawing it, could you optimize using Iaijutsu Focus multiple times a round? It gets you at most +9d6 damage per attack. Whether or not that's relevant depends on the optimization level of your table.

This is a solid idea.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ancestral Relic and Item Familiar so you can tack a ton of extra abilities onto your swords? Add various abilities that expand your options, such as morphing, sizing, metalline, and aptitude, and you can create pretty much any weapon you can imagine from scratch.

[daremetoidareyo]

It seems like it would be worth looking into weapon crystals

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It seems like it would be worth looking into weapon crystalsIt would, assuming you don't drop the weapon and thus lose the weapon crystal's connection to it. Could you jerry-rig some way to attach it to your palm in such a way that it auto-attaches to any weapon you hold? Maybe add its functionality to a gauntlet or something?

[flappeercraft]

If you can get the Earth Glide ability (such as by becoming an earth elemental or a casting of the spell by the same name) now you go underground and fight always from underground giving you total cover, your sword will have no trouble going through the ground and neither will you.

[Quertus]

If you can get the Earth Glide ability (such as by becoming an earth elemental or a casting of the spell by the same name) now you go underground and fight always from underground giving you total cover, your sword will have no trouble going through the ground and neither will you.

You'd need tremorsense, via a maug graft or something.

[Nifft]

If you can get the Earth Glide ability (such as by becoming an earth elemental or a casting of the spell by the same name) now you go underground and fight always from underground giving you total cover, your sword will have no trouble going through the ground and neither will you.

I just came in here to recommend the Earth Dreamer PrC which grants Earth Glide.

But I'm not sure if this PC can fit in the levels.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about stacking things like elemental warrior?

[Goaty14]

Unfortunately, they disappear as soon as I loose contact with them.

Do it Kratos-style and attach them to chains which you hold. You still have "contact", yet still throwing them.


Maybe add its functionality to a gauntlet or something?

Huh, reminds me of something (https://dyn0.media.forbiddenplanet.com/products/4206880.jpg.maxheight-285_square-true_size-285.jpg)...

Sticking the stone in a locked gauntlet attached to the sword could work.

[Kayblis]

IIRC, there's some graft that gives you extra arms. There's also a magic item that gives you two extra arms, as well as the Girallon's Blessing spell. Spell effects may stack with physical grafts depending on your GM. Mix it with Iaijutsu and you're looking at a bucket of d6 to roll six to twelve times a round.

[WhamBamSam]

If you turn your longsword into a lance (say through the Weapon Shift spell from SpC), then the Tremendous Charge feat (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) will break it sometimes, but allows you to use your mount's Str instead of your own.

Earth Dreamer will let you see through walls, which is handy since you can attack through them.

If you make yourself larger, you can use the sword as an improvised weapon for Area Attack, and swing through walls and such without needing to worry about missing.

If you have a party member foolish enough to be a Forsaker, Spellfire Channeler, or the like in a game that allows Celestial Channeling, you could help them out by letting them break your swords.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you make yourself larger, you can use the sword as an improvised weapon for Area Attack, and swing through walls and such without needing to worry about missing.
Might be some cool synergy with War Hulk. Unlikely to fit the character, but whatever, it's BIG SMASH :smallbiggrin:.

[Deophaun]

Sword of light? Hold it and recite the following:

Darkness beyond blackest pitch.
Deeper than the deepest night.
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee, and swear myself to thee.
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!
GIGA SLAVE!

Just don't lose focus or you might destroy the universe.

[Yan Korlat]

Weapon shift looks SUPER promising.

Spellfire Wielder would be awesome, might be able to fit a dip in. FREE HEALING!!!

Also, just for fun, sit around for days with your artificer friend.

Overall, great potential!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there some way to pull a Legend of Zelda and give the swords sword-beams?

[daremetoidareyo]

Is there some way to pull a Legend of Zelda and give the swords sword-beams?

weapon shift into an Etherblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519659-Optimize-this-Weapon-EtherBlade-from-Fiend-Folio-p-68)

[ericgrau]

How do you handle undead?

Assuming that's not a big issue you want to exploit your high chance to hit. TWF was a nice idea, but yeah it does take a couple feats. Power attack lets you trade it for damage, but it's not a very good trade. Especially once you get into iteratives you want to keep your full attack bonus for your -5 and -10 attacks. Getting iteratives as often as possible may be a better solution. Pounce for example. Or bounding assault and rapid blitz in case your first target drops too fast.

With your weapon covered you can focus on other magic items that boost your damage like boots of speed, belt of battle (if your group doesn't consider it broken), strength, etc., etc.

Also note that brilliant energy weapons pass through walls and other obstacles. You have a prodding stick. If you can become large somehow you have a longer prodding stick. I think someone mentioned a way to make it into a lance for even more reach. Get a ring of X ray vision and you can see what you're stabbing in the other room. You might also stab through a tower shield that you set for full cover, or another portable obstacle like an instant fortress (DMG magic item) or mini siege tower. Mobility may be limited but if the enemy is in a tight space like a hallway your mini siege tower could be a fun way to exploit this. A caster could shrink item it to carry it around the rest of the time.

[Arcanist]

How do you handle undead?

I imagine they handle it with Empowered Chain Lightning or any of their other at will SLA that they get for channeling.

[ericgrau]

I imagine they handle it with Empowered Chain Lightning or any of their other at will SLA that they get for channeling.

Ok, but then everything spent on optimizing the laser sword is a waste. And unoptimized SLAs might not be sufficient for the undead's CR. The best answer might be to ignore the laser sword and focus on other abilities, but is that the goal here? Helloqwerty wants to optimize the laser sword. Should we tell her to abandon that goal? Maybe, brilliant energy is hard to make work. But at least try to answer the question or tell her it's impossible first.

Greater invis, haste and PaO could mesh well with other abilities including the laser sword. Mass charm monster, detect thoughts and wall of force could be used at different times than the main shtick but still be useful (gather minions to use later, scout, open a fight to make it easier). But how does celestial channeling work? I tried Googling it and got little explanation. It's just SLAs that they get?

As far as I can tell the empowered chain lightning is nice, but not sufficient for a foe with high enough CR to expect all these spells. Otherwise it would be the solution to everything that's not immune and it's not the strongest spell here. So really, is there any way to spend all these feats and levels on her sword and then not be screwed against level appropriate undead and constructs? I couldn't find anything directly. But there's a lot of really good anti undead stuff out there. Maybe if she and/or an ally gets some abilities that crush undead and constructs it won't be so bad when her main shtick isn't as good against some foes... and then we go back to optimizing her weapon.

[Yan Korlat]

Thanks for the help, everyone! :smallsmile:

Just two more questions:

Is there a way to reshuffle weapon enhancements?

Does the disruption property make any sense on a brilliant energy weapon?

[Nifft]

Is there a way to reshuffle weapon enhancements?

There are weapon augment crystals in the Magic Item Compendium (MIC) which can add effects to existent weapons.

[Arcanist]

Ok, but then everything spent on optimizing the laser sword is a waste. And unoptimized SLAs might not be sufficient for the undead's CR. The best answer might be to ignore the laser sword and focus on other abilities, but is that the goal here? Helloqwerty wants to optimize the laser sword. Should we tell her to abandon that goal? Maybe, brilliant energy is hard to make work. But at least try to answer the question or tell her it's impossible first.

I more or less started off by listing all of the fundementally better things you get from channeling a Tulani besides the sword (which isn't even that good mind you for the exact reason you're saying), so when I say they use the Empowered Chain Lightning, I am suggesting they just use their other, more powerful resources, instead of relying on a somewhat unreliable ability. However hypothetically speaking, if they are going into this build, they might as well just go for a melee Cleric build, get another sword that they can use that focuses on killing Undead and Constructs, and invest in a Rod of Construct Control and call it a day.


But how does celestial channeling work? I tried Googling it and got little explanation. It's just SLAs that they get?


A mortal channeling a celestial becomes a mortal manifestation of the celestial’s power. The celestial can draw on all of the mortal’s memories, and the celestial senses what the mortal senses. The mortal and the celestial can communicate telepathically, but neither has complete access to the current thoughts of the other. While channeling a celestial, the mortal’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores become 5 points lower than the celestial’s (or remain the same as the mortal’s scores if they are higher). An increase in Wisdom affects the mortal’s Will saves, and all three increases might affect bonus spells and saving throw DCs for spells and special abilities. The mortal can use its own skills and the celestial’s skills. If the mortal and the celestial have the same skill, use the skill of whichever has more ranks in the skill. Use the mortal’s effective ability scores to determine skill modifiers.

The channeling mortal can use all of the celestial’s supernatural and spell-like abilities, and can cast spells known to the celestial if his requisite ability scores are high enough. The mortal remains in complete control of his own body while channeling the celestial, so celestials never allow nongood mortals to channel them. The mortal or the celestial can end the channeling at any time, as a free action. When this occurs, the celestial appears in an unoccupied space adjacent to the mortal.

Frankly, it would be better to channel a Solar, for every reason why you cast Gate on a Solar, instead of almost anything else. Sure, you lose out on 3 int, and 2 cha, but your minimum for wis is 20 (if that even matters).


As far as I can tell the empowered chain lightning is nice, but not sufficient for a foe with high enough CR to expect all these spells. Otherwise it would be the solution to everything that's not immune and it's not the strongest spell here. So really, is there any way to spend all these feats and levels on her sword and then not be screwed against level appropriate undead and constructs? I couldn't find anything directly. But there's a lot of really good anti undead stuff out there. Maybe if she and/or an ally gets some abilities that crush undead and constructs it won't be so bad when her main shtick isn't as good against some foes... and then we go back to optimizing her weapon.

Cleric 3-5 / X 15-17; pick up a longsword for dealing with Undead and Constructs, and a Rod of Construct Control and call it a day. Because Channelling is such a wild card that I just view it as a +0 LA template that says "add all Spells, Spell-like abilities, and Supernatural abilities to your character of an Angel of your choice; Increase your mental ability scores to their mental ability scores -5 unless yours are higher." You can get away with all sorts of crazy stuff because of how Channeling just is. The only thing that prevents it from being really ridiculous is that it can, in theory, be shut down really easy and depending on how you went into it, really hard.

[Dimers]

If you make yourself larger, you can use the sword as an improvised weapon for Area Attack, and swing through walls and such without needing to worry about missing.

Why make yourself larger? The ability doesn't specify what size the sword has to be ... :smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Be an artificer and start eating your swords' XP.

Or sacrifice your swords to the Ancestral Relic feat.

You could always be a psychic warrior and use your call weaponry power and the soulbound weapon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF to rebuild them from scratch, though I don't think this is the kind of thing you want for this thread.

[unseenmage]

There are a couple of 3.x Constructs that let you build a weapon into them at creation.

In PF you can do this with every Construct even after creation.

Not sure how abusable the above is though. Esp. for this character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you have access to a permanencied hoard gullet spell and the acorn of far travel spell, you could always plant an acorn in your stomach dimension, cast plant growth on it (or just use a feather token: tree), then start handing out acorns to party members. If they are considered to be in your stomach at all times, you might be able to convince your DM that it's touching you enough so the swords they hold won't disappear as they use them. If they let go, however, they'll have to come back to you for another one. Or two.