The missing playable aquatic race

[Millstone85]

In a thread on Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, this comment was made:
Sea Elves... we just need one more aquatic race for a fully differentiated underwater party

Playable aquatic races currently include the water genasi (EEPC), the sea elf (MToF) and the triton (VGtM).
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/8b/Watersoul_genasi_-_William_O%27Connor.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/194https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/26/Female_Aquatic_Elf/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/203https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/7/72/Triton-5e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/277

I agree we need a fourth. But what should it be?

[Tectorman]

I'm hoping for merfolk, and specifically merfolk that can do Daryl Hannah's Splash trick of being able to grow legs when they're not wet.

[Naanomi]

I mean... mechanically we are lacking a +INT race... and a small race would be nice... but lore wise nothing really fits that.

Lore wise (from past editions), reasonable choice... Kuo-Toa, Hengeyokai (crab, carp); Spirit Folk (river, sea), Locathah, several Lizardman Variants

[Beechgnome]

Zoveri are aquatic half humanoid, half octopus creatures in Celestia. Perhaps a material plane version? They can take on legs for walking, but prefer the water. They are medium not small and lorewise they are really another Charisma-based race. (Maybe +1 Con, +2 Cha.) Unique ability would be their once a long rest ink cloud, and maybe some sort of grappling advantage?

[Unoriginal]

Lobster-folk.

[the_brazenburn]

I agree with kuo-toa. That would be really cool, especially if they got Int buffs.

We could have some interesting RP that way, as well. What about a kuo-toa warlock that's convinced itself that it's a cleric?

[Naanomi]

For FR, Shalarin also I guess.

Kuo-Toa, Shalarin, and Locathah seem the most reasonable outside of an ‘Oriental Adventures’ type book

[Requilac]

I believe you are forgetting the lizardfolk which also have a swimming speed.

Hmm, so all the monsters currently in 5e which are humanoid, bipedal and have a swimming speed are Bullywugs, Lizard folk, Kuo-Toa, Sahuagin, Deep Scions and Sea Spawn. Almost all of those are specifically pointed out as being evil though and are thus unlikely to become player races. But I mean they did create those monstrous races in Volo's so it is quite possible that these might become playable races. I wouldn't bet on any of them though.

Also what needs to be kept in mind is that the rogue surrogate from ToA is a grung, which also has a swimming speed. Perhaps it may become a PC race too. I doubt it is just going to be for that single character after all.

[HolyDraconus]

Air Genasi. Seriously. Even in 5e with the gimped version, air genasi can still rock this.

[Naanomi]

Lizardman and half-sea-Elf can swim but not breathe underwater

Air Genasi and warforged don’t need to breathe, but lack swim speeds

In my mind, you need both to be a really aquatic adventurer

(Note a few class options give one or both, but not at first level)

[Regitnui]

Sahuagin, anyone? I know their Limited Amphibiousness makes them poor long-term overland adventurers, but they've made bigger changes adapting player races, and if you're playing an aquatic race, you're going to expect an abundance of water.

[thoroughlyS]

The obvious answer is the koalinth, or aquatic hobgoblin. You could also port over the Aventi (water humans) or Darfellan (orca people) from 3.5.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We could have some interesting RP that way, as well. What about a kuo-toa warlock that's convinced itself that it's a cleric?
Lore-wise, what's the difference? How popular your cult is?


A lot of the things mentioned here sound neat. The sahuagin and kuo-toa have the most D&D cred, and the merfolk have the most traditional-fantasy cred...but a clever little cephalopod-person would be fun. Or selkies, I don't think anyone's suggested those yet.

[vicente408]

The obvious answer is the koalinth, or aquatic hobgoblin. You could also port over the Aventi (water humans) or Darfellan (orca people) from 3.5.

I was going to mention Darfellans but realized they don’t actually breathe water but hold their breath for long periods of time, as actual aquatic mammals like whales do. So you would have to surface periodically (by 3.5 stats it was roughly ten minutes max, depending on your Con score).

I’m going to second the idea of a cephalopod-based race, though. That sounds cool as heck. Int bonus, maybe a natural camouflage to give you a bonus to stealth? Or an ink spray/cloud? Grapple bonus??

[Millstone85]

Lots of creatures I have never heard of. I will be sure to read on them.

And yeah, the race must neither be among the drowning or slow-swimming ones. It probably needs to work for regular land adventures as well.


Lore-wise, what's the difference? How popular your cult is?According to the PHB p205, the warlock is considered an arcane spellcaster, which means a direct access to the Weave as opposed to one mediated by divine power.

From this we can assume a warlock is taught secrets and/or durably imbued with power by their patron, unlike the ongoing connection between a cleric and their god.

But to one not interested in such magobabble, it does make little difference.

[Naanomi]

Also, from a ‘greater Cosmology’ standpoint... a God and it’s ability to form a connection with a Cleric (and worshipers as a whole) is a unique sort of thing that other beings (even those with cults and religions) may emulate but never fully reproduce

[Mortis_Elrod]

If your counting plane shift , we already had plenty of Merfolk. And I would still count Lizardfolk since they have hold breath. You just need to come up every now and then. Unless you are playing complete underwater adventure.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Where else would people be looking specifically for aquatic races?

[Naanomi]

Yeah, Lizardmen (and to an even lesser degree Tortles) get an ‘honorable mention’ at best... in line with Air Genasi and Warforged for being ‘half way there’

Starting at higher levels, a Warlock or Storm Barbarian can also get the goods... but not from 1st

[sambojin]

Lizardman and half-sea-Elf can swim but not breathe underwater

Air Genasi and warforged don’t need to breathe, but lack swim speeds

In my mind, you need both to be a really aquatic adventurer

(Note a few class options give one or both, but not at first level)

The Mariner fighting style from the Waterborne Adventures UA can give a swimming speed to either, but only when lightly or unarmoured. Since Minotaurs are now official, it's a pity that didn't make it in too.

(also gives a climbing speed, and can get silly with druid wildshape if your DM allows fighting styles to carry over. Still a good addition to the system though)

[Naanomi]

Yes, I suppose if UA is fully available, a Warforged or Air Genasi Fighter would meet my qualifications

[Klaus Teufel]

Here is a write-up for the Grung (https://rpg.rem.uz/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons/D%26D%205th%20Edition/Core/One%20Grung%20Above.pdf).

[Kadesh]

Water Genasi; +2 Con, +1 Wis; Resist Acid, Shape Water Cantrip, Create/Destroy Water 1/day.
Sea Elves; +2 Dex, +1 Con, Communicate with creatures with Swimming Speed
Triton; +1 Str, Con, Cha, Gust of Wind Cantrip, Wall of Water Cantrip

Given the trend, a +2 Con, and a +Int race seems fitting, although that then becomes Wizards, the race.

[Ogun]

Selkies are seal people?
I like the idea of a squid person with a shell on it's head, pointy or curled, dark vision, Int and Con boost, and Con bonus per day aquatic Dash/Inkcloud.

[the_brazenburn]

Also what needs to be kept in mind is that the rogue surrogate from ToA is a grung, which also has a swimming speed. Perhaps it may become a PC race too. I doubt it is just going to be for that single character after all.

There was an assassin in PotA that was a sahuagin. It had a specific stat block, so maybe we can expect those as a race too.

[Asmotherion]

Sahuagin, anyone? I know their Limited Amphibiousness makes them poor long-term overland adventurers, but they've made bigger changes adapting player races, and if you're playing an aquatic race, you're going to expect an abundance of water.

I could see myself playing a Sahuagin Warlock of the Kraken.

[Particle_Man]

Does Hasbro have the rights to Sea Monkeys?

[Sigreid]

Yes, I suppose if UA is fully available, a Warforged or Air Genasi Fighter would meet my qualifications

They have all kinds of attachments for warforged. Any reason they couldn't have a ballast and outboard motor attachment?

[mephnick]

Those pictires just make me question the inclusion of Sea Elves even more. We already had Triton, why the hell did we need Sea Elves?

[Kadesh]

Those pictires just make me question the inclusion of Sea Elves even more. We already had Triton, why the hell did we need Sea Elves?

Why did we need Bugbears when we had Orcs?

[Millstone85]

Those pictires just make me question the inclusion of Sea Elves even more. We already had Triton, why the hell did we need Sea Elves?Or the other way around. I was annoyed when SCAG gave rules for playing a half-elf of aquatic heritage but none to play a full sea elf. Then VGtM came with the triton and I was like "Seriously?".

Now, I know that having a large number of elven subraces is often derided, but IMO sea elves are among the most interesting ones.


Why did we need Bugbears when we had Orcs?Also that.

[Finback]

Recent UA for Ravnica had the Simic Guild members, who use SCIENCE to improve themselves, and dive deeply into the realms of taking features of other creatures and adding it to themselves. They also get to pick what traits they manifest over time as they level. I'm not sure how likely it is the Ravnican UA stuff will make it in, given how close to publication date the book is, but I know they're also reworking the loxodon (apparently to include use of the trunk as a "free hand"/bonus action bludgeoning attack), so maybe they will be the fourth fishy franchise.

[Finback]

They have all kinds of attachments for warforged. Any reason they couldn't have a ballast and outboard motor attachment?

*warforged lies on back, holds up a mast* "Get on losers, we're going sailing"

[LudicSavant]

Sahuagin, anyone? I know their Limited Amphibiousness makes them poor long-term overland adventurers, but they've made bigger changes adapting player races, and if you're playing an aquatic race, you're going to expect an abundance of water.

I vote for a modular Sahuagin (lots of mutations and the like).

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I made a race called the Versari, a sort of* human-Ithilid hybrid. A Half-ilid, if you will. They are either the result of mad experimentation or a Mind Flayer slave revolt gone horribly wrong**. Whichever fit your fancy. They basically look human except for the purple, blue, or green skin and small face tentacles around the mouth, hairline, and eyebrows.

+2 Int, +1 Con
Standard Move, Aging, etc.
Languages include Common and Telepathy 120ft (basically a silent Message cantrip)
Mind Tentacles: You can read the thoughts of restrained or incapacitated creatures using 1 minute of concentration and an opposed Intelligence save. You learn surface thoughts and recent important information such as passwords, their recent activities, and other such information.
Mind Blast: You can make a Psychic attack in a 15ft cone, dealing 2d8 Psychic damage if they fail an Intelligence Save (DC 8 + you Intelligence + your proficiency). This takes an Action and can be used once before requiring a short or long rest to recharge. The damage increases by 1d8 at levels 7, 12, and 17.

*IE Exactly
**"They wanna eat our brains? LET'S EAT THEIRS!"

[Millstone85]

I made a race called the Versari, a sort of* human-Ithilid hybrid.Despite their squid-like faces, illithids do not breathe underwater.

[Luccan]

Sahuagin? We already have Sea Elves and Tritons, so why not? We can even do subraces, using the ones that look like sea elves and the four armed ones as alternates.

Edit: It seems several people have already suggested it. Consider this my agreement.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Does Hasbro have the rights to Sea Monkeys?
Considering how many people and corporations use that pun? As long as they're not brine shrimp, you'll probably be fine.
[warning: not a lawyer]



Those pictires just make me question the inclusion of Sea Elves even more. We already had Triton, why the hell did we need Sea Elves?
Because we can't just have one race of elves that likes all nature; we need separate subraces for each biome that can get into snide-offs about whose is best.

[KorvinStarmast]

why the hell did we need Sea Elves? We didn't, but then someone remembered The Sinister Secret of Salt Marsh, module U1, AD&D 1e, and decided "we have to have a sea elf!" :smallyuk:

Sorry, Aquatic Elf. :smallyuk:


Oceanus{3F / 3T} ... tribe of Manaan who inhabit the coastal waters about 15 miles southwest of Saltmarsh. From the module. (One of my favorites to run as a DM).

[Millstone85]

Because we can't just have one race of elves that likes all nature; we need separate subraces for each biome that can get into snide-offs about whose is best.That would at least be a consistent theme, but then there are the eladrin.

Like, the Feywild has its own underdark, where fomorians dwell, and surely its own bodies of water as well. What sorts of elves would you expect to meet down there? The ones who embody the four seasons and sometimes shift between them? Or, you know, dark and sea elves.

Shadar-kai get a pass, somewhat. In the Shadowfell, the difference between the surface and the underdark is one of shades of really dark gray, and the ocean must be one giant oil spill.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Despite their squid-like faces, illithids do not breathe underwater.

....so? Ten characters!

[Millstone85]

....so? Ten characters!So, how do you jump from that to an aquatic race?

Or, if your versari are not an aquatic race, why post about them in this thread?

[Unoriginal]

Seriously, the Aldani/Lobster-folk would be fun.

Probably would get 14 of natural armor.

Only issue they're monstrosities, not humanoids.

[Kadesh]

Seriously, the Aldani/Lobster-folk would be fun.

Probably would get 14 of natural armor.

Only issue they're monstrosities, not humanoids.

Cba checking, but how did the UA handle Centaurs (please don't say 'poorly')?

[Unoriginal]

Cba checking, but how did the UA handle Centaurs (please don't say 'poorly')?

Well, you don't want me to say it.


They basically said "they count as a medium humanoid too. Forget about the rest."

[Laserlight]

From back in the dim mists of antiquity (so around 1980) I recall pics of octopi with armor and spears. Might have been from Empire of the Petal Throne or The Fantasy Trip. I would buy those as a INT DEX race.

[Damon_Tor]

but I know they're also reworking the loxodon (apparently to include use of the trunk as a "free hand"/bonus action bludgeoning attack)

Cool! Link to source?

Yeah, the Simics look like our next aquatic PC race. +2 Con, +1 to another stat, Aquatic, and +1 AC at level 5 (the other options at level 5 are ribbons, unless they change them before print) which makes for a nice tank for the party.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I definitely think sahuagins could be an interesting aquatic option.

For my part, I've written a few aquatic and semi-aquatic races, including sirines (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/03/sirine.html), merfolk (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/05/merfolk.html), undines and glaistigs (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3crmpfdbc5u5x5/Fey%20Creatures%20Complete.pdf?dl=0) (merfolk and undines have since been updated slightly in non-free books). All of these were conceived before Volo's was published, for the record.

It definitely gets hard to differentiate aquatic races. A lot of them a drawing on the same set of tropes, and including swim speed and water breathing as essential features leaves less room for other features.

[Finback]

Cool! Link to source?



https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1038125525070360577

[Particle_Man]

Those pictires just make me question the inclusion of Sea Elves even more. We already had Triton, why the hell did we need Sea Elves?

To ride the giant seahorses? :smallsmile:

[GreatWyrmGold]

We didn't, but then someone remembered The Sinister Secret of Salt Marsh, module U1, AD&D 1e, and decided "we have to have a sea elf!" :smallyuk:
Ah, it's one of those things.
Not to be needlessly harsh on old D&D, but it seems like most of the weird and/or annoying aspects of the system and its worldbuilding can be traced to things from ye olden D&Days which have been enshrined in the nostalgic...um...shrine of tradition...never mind how design goals, aesthetic/narrative preferences, and the gaming landscape have changed since then.

[Sigreid]

Ah, it's one of those things.
Not to be needlessly harsh on old D&D, but it seems like most of the weird and/or annoying aspects of the system and its worldbuilding can be traced to things from ye olden D&Days which have been enshrined in the nostalgic...um...shrine of tradition...never mind how design goals, aesthetic/narrative preferences, and the gaming landscape have changed since then.

I would say its biggest obstacle is trying to be all things fantasy to all people who enjoy fantasy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, it's one of those things.
Not to be needlessly harsh on old D&D, but it seems like most of the weird and/or annoying aspects of the system and its worldbuilding can be traced to things from ye olden D&Days which have been enshrined in the nostalgic...um...shrine of tradition...never mind how design goals, aesthetic/narrative preferences, and the gaming landscape have changed since then. The never ending differentiation of elves into yet another sub group (maybe we can blame Tolkien for that, but in his world building it made sense) in D&D since AD&D 1e has been a source of annoyance for me since then. The Drow was the worst of these offenses against story telling, IMO.

FFS, yer an elf (or yer a half elf). Get on with it!

(Likewise with the fine distinctions between kinds of hobbits, kinds of gnomes, kinds of dwarves ...)

FFS, yer a dwarf/gnome/hobbit. Get on with it!

[Naanomi]

Aquatic Elves have been part of 5E lore since the Sahuagin MM entry at the least, it is the inclusion of Tritons that should have been perhaps more surprising.

[Luccan]

Aquatic Elves have been part of 5E lore since the Sahuagin MM entry at the least, it is the inclusion of Tritons that should have been perhaps more surprising.

Gonna agree, actually. Aquatic elves have at least been some kind of baseline race ( for aquatic campaigns) in several editions. I don't know about 4e, but in 3.X, Tritons were HD'd Outsiders. Also, they just looked like wet elves anyway.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The never ending differentiation of elves into yet another sub group (maybe we can blame Tolkien for that, but in his world building it made sense) in D&D since AD&D 1e has been a source of annoyance for me since then. The Drow was the worst of these offenses against story telling, IMO.
The idea of a group of evil elves, or evil any player race, is a good idea. Making them genetically distinct from normal elves...less so. Making them dark-skinned? Are you asking for mockery and derision?

[Sigreid]

Gonna agree, actually. Aquatic elves have at least been some kind of baseline race ( for aquatic campaigns) in several editions. I don't know about 4e, but in 3.X, Tritons were HD'd Outsiders. Also, they just looked like wet elves anyway.

On this all I can say is in my very first MM Tritons were in there as kind of a variation of merman that has what amounted to 2 fish tails instead of 1 in place of legs.

Edit: As far as the dark skinned elves, lots of people way back tended not to think about race or correctness in their lives, like at all. More than likely the consideration dark skinned, malevolent, intelligent people lurking in the darkness and striking out of nowhere is a frightening concept. White skin may be uventhe impression over being easier to spot by torchlight.

[Sigreid]

I would reimagine elves as a race whose innate fey magic attunes to its environment over the course of a few generations, resulting in a variety of forms typically divided into four categories: dark, high, sea and wood. In the Feywild, some elves would be able to switch between these forms at will.

Elfquest was pretty similar to that notion.

[Millstone85]

I would reimagine elves as a race whose innate fey magic attunes to its environment over the course of a few generations, resulting in a variety of forms typically divided into four categories: dark, high, sea and wood. In the Feywild, some elves would be able to switch between these forms during trance.

Edit: Messed up my edit again. Just a bad habit I can't shake.

[ZorroGames]

The never ending differentiation of elves into yet another sub group (maybe we can blame Tolkien for that, but in his world building it made sense) in D&D since AD&D 1e has been a source of annoyance for me since then. The Drow was the worst of these offenses against story telling, IMO.

FFS, yer an elf (or yer a half elf). Get on with it!

(Likewise with the fine distinctions between kinds of hobbits, kinds of gnomes, kinds of dwarves ...)

FFS, yer a dwarf/gnome/hobbit. Get on with it!

And Humans should all be one ethnicity/culture by that “Logic ”. - just let people play what they, not you, want.

[Luccan]

And Humans should all be one ethnicity/culture by that “Logic ”. - just let people play what they, not you, want.

While I think the myriad subraces are fun, lets be clear that a human's race as we would think of it in the real world context has no impact on things like strength or intelligence, while in D&D subraces do exactly that. It's not really a good comparison. Plus your response illustrates another problem with subraces that often crops up in D&D: Monolithic culture based on a species genetics. Wood Elves are always standoffish and live in trees (instead of, you know, just living in the woods like normal people but more eco-friendly), Drow are always from evil cultures (despite there being so many good Drow at this point it's frankly astounding they don't have their own vast Underdark empire.

[Millstone85]

Drow are always from evil cultures (despite there being so many good Drow at this point it's frankly astounding they don't have their own vast Underdark empire.That's because a drow's rebellion against their culture's evil ways is often symbolised by them leaving the Underdark. The one good drow deity, Eilistraee, is associated with moonlight of all things. And then, of course, there is Drizzt.

Drow should really take a page from deep gnomes, and seek better ways in what is, in fact, their home.

[MagneticKitty]

Grung which have a supplement like tortles.
Air genasi and warforged don't need to breath.
And the new ua has simmic hybrid or something. They're part sea creature.

[Naanomi]

Grung which have a supplement like tortles.
Air genasi and warforged don't need to breath.
And the new ua has simmic hybrid or something. They're part sea creature.
UA has a few merforlk types if it is allowed. Warforged and Air genasi can’t swim so are only half way there. The Grung supplement isn’t quite like the tortle one, it isn’t AL open and doesn’t have full racial stats

[MagneticKitty]

UA has a few merforlk types if it is allowed. Warforged and Air genasi can’t swim so are only half way there. The Grung supplement isn’t quite like the tortle one, it isn’t AL open and doesn’t have full racial stats

They seem fully statted to me? Search one grung above. Last page. Though not al legal, yeah

[Naanomi]

They seem fully statted to me? Search one grung above. Last page. Though not al legal, yeah
Ah, fair enough... they don’t have a swim speed though

[MagneticKitty]

Ah, fair enough... they don’t have a swim speed though

No they dont. You'd need mariner or something. Lizard folk have a swim speed but can't breathe. Yuan ti might have a swim speed, I forget

[GreatWyrmGold]

Edit: As far as the dark skinned elves, lots of people way back tended not to think about race or correctness in their lives, like at all. More than likely the consideration dark skinned, malevolent, intelligent people lurking in the darkness and striking out of nowhere is a frightening concept. White skin may be uventhe impression over being easier to spot by torchlight.
I know it wasn't intentional, but it still invites mockery and derision. The two aren't even close to related; mistakes earn and invite about as much mockery and derision as intentional screwups.

[Sigreid]

I know it wasn't intentional, but it still invites mockery and derision. The two aren't even close to related; mistakes earn and invite about as much mockery and derision as intentional screwups.

Certainly entitled to your opinion. Personally I think if you insist on judging people from one culture by the standards of another you will surely always find them disappointing.

[Unoriginal]

Dark elves who live underground being a counterpart to light elves who live under the sky is a trope that goes back to Norse Mythology.

Drow are "dark skinned" only in the sense they're a shade of dark purple.

[ZorroGames]

I know it wasn't intentional, but it still invites mockery and derision. The two aren't even close to related; mistakes earn and invite about as much mockery and derision as intentional screwups.

Many (most?) cave living creatures have little or no coloration in their skin IIRC.

[Naanomi]

Many (most?) cave living creatures have little or no coloration in their skin IIRC.
Most examples (as far as we know) were also not cursed by their gods to dwell underground; but rather adapted to live there. I’d guess the distinction in pigmentation may lie there

[username1]

Anyone mention the Tortle yet? These turtle folk can hold their breath for an hour. This would be good enough for most underwater games.

[ZorroGames]

While I think the myriad subraces are fun, lets be clear that a human's race as we would think of it in the real world context has no impact on things like strength or intelligence, while in D&D subraces do exactly that. It's not really a good comparison. Plus your response illustrates another problem with subraces that often crops up in D&D: Monolithic culture based on a species genetics. Wood Elves are always standoffish and live in trees (instead of, you know, just living in the woods like normal people but more eco-friendly), Drow are always from evil cultures (despite there being so many good Drow at this point it's frankly astounding they don't have their own vast Underdark empire.

Monolithic is a DM choice. And Drow have /become a poster child for not mixing novels, FRPGs, and PC choices in games.

[Naanomi]

Anyone mention the Tortle yet? These turtle folk can hold their breath for an hour. This would be good enough for most underwater games.
They have no swim speed, and if you can’t take a long rest underwater it isn’t good enough for my tastes

[ZorroGames]

Most examples (as far as we know) were also not cursed by their gods to dwell underground; but rather adapted to live there. I’d guess the distinction in pigmentation may lie there
Yes, using real world examples in a FRPG - my bad.

[ZorroGames]

They have no swim speed, and if you can’t take a long rest underwater it isn’t good enough for my tastes

Breathe water spell lasts how long?

Yes, if it is a day length adventure it might work. Multiple days, maybe not so much without potions or water proof scrolls?

[Sigreid]

The real problem with under water adventures isn't the aquatic race number anyway. A wizard who wanted to do the under water exploration thing for any length of time would need a different kind of spell book than one made out of parchment.

Though I could see a wizard venturing under the waves in an attempt to learn what aquatic folk make their spell books out of.

[Millstone85]

The real problem with under water adventures isn't the aquatic race number anyway. A wizard who wanted to do the under water exploration thing for any length of time would need a different kind of spell book than one made out of parchment.

Though I could see a wizard venturing under the waves in an attempt to learn what aquatic folk make their spell books out of.I was rather thinking of the wizard being one of the aquatic folk to begin with.

[Sigreid]

I was rather thinking of the wizard being one of the aquatic folk to begin with.

I get that. I was just thinking they would need their books made very differently and that lead me to speculating that a surface wizard would like very much to know how.

[Naanomi]

I get that. I was just thinking they would need their books made very differently and that lead me to speculating that a surface wizard would like very much to know how.
A bit tangential, but my Fire Gensai Wizard was allowed to have a fire-proof book for similar reasons (studied wizardry in the City of Brass)

[Sigreid]

A bit tangential, but my Fire Gensai Wizard was allowed to have a fire-proof book for similar reasons (studied wizardry in the City of Brass)

It now occurs to me that the very act of writing underwater would be very different.

[hamishspence]

It now occurs to me that the very act of writing underwater would be very different.

I could see it as being:

Pages are made in layers. The top layer is very thin. When writing, the top layer is scraped off, revealing a differently coloured layer underneath - this is what the letters are - the revealed underlayer.

Instead of a pen and ink, you'd have a scraper (which looks very similar), that scrapes letters into the pages.

[Regitnui]

It now occurs to me that the very act of writing underwater would be very different.

This is D&D. (Especially in Eberron) Underwater races can use spellshards instead of spellbooks; gems or stones enchanted to show holographic letters arranged in a "page". Why even limit ourselves to the concept of books and scrolls for underwater societies?

[the_brazenburn]

Or they could carve on stones instead of writing with paper.

[hamishspence]

Or they could carve on stones instead of writing with paper.

That's rather slow though. Having something that can be "written on underwater" that isn't as bulky and as time-consuming as stones are to carve, might be handier.

A way of making letters, magical symbols, etc, quickly.

[Sigreid]

This is D&D. (Especially in Eberron) Underwater races can use spellshards instead of spellbooks; gems or stones enchanted to show holographic letters arranged in a "page". Why even limit ourselves to the concept of books and scrolls for underwater societies?

It can be fun to think about how Mindy McMundane would accomplish what we consider basic tasks in such a different environment.

[Naanomi]

Magic Ink (to copy spells) would need some equivalent as well, heck... magic ink could just be plain waterproof as part of its magic

[GreatWyrmGold]

Dark elves who live underground being a counterpart to light elves who live under the sky is a trope that goes back to Norse Mythology.
Drow are "dark skinned" only in the sense they're a shade of dark purple.
The Svartálfar have more in common with fantasy dwarves than drow. Also, drow are black-skinned in all the art I've seen of them.



Monolithic is a DM choice.
In principle, yes. In practice, it's one supported by more campaign settings (and other published material) than not.



Underwater spell books?
Pencils work. (Citation: My own experience with SCUBA.) Graphite wasn't used for proto-pencils in our world until the late 16th century, so it would be even more "anachronistic" than plate armor and cannons (though not as much as steam engines and other gnomish nonsense). Of course, a simple lump of granite should work, and at least one culture used it in pottery, so it's not an insoluble issue.

[Luccan]

On writing underwater: You don't need a magic answer. GreatWyrmGold pointed out graphite might work, but even if you have a problem with that, the races that have lived underwater for countless millennia have probably developed a way to write that's efficient and effective without being too costly. It's only something to worry about if you refuse to believe in the possibility that they might've developed some way of dealing with the problem. Which, to be fair, if they haven't, you could do some interesting things with it. What if the clergy have the most important texts of their people stored in a dry grotto they can visit for only hours at a time? Think of how much power that gives them in addition to their role as religious leaders.

[Unoriginal]

That's rather slow though. Having something that can be "written on underwater" that isn't as bulky and as time-consuming as stones are to carve, might be handier. quickly.

Wax tablets. Like the Romans in real life.



The Svartálfar have more in common with fantasy dwarves than drow.

That's because "dwarf" and "elf" are two intermingled categories in Norse mythology and not even experts can agree on where which end. Gandalfr ("the elf with the magic wand") was a dwarf king.



Also, drow are black-skinned in all the art I've seen of them.

They go from gray to purple, with a few more blue-ish skin tones, and they can have dark or pale skin.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/98b811578baefec48d2a9dc9d02a4ca8/tumblr_pbf628hmmY1v4fvg9o1_1280.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/0/02/Vizeran_devir-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171231210616


They don't have human-like skin tones.

[hamishspence]

That's because "dwarf" and "elf" are two intermingled categories in Norse mythology and not even experts can agree on where which end.

The Svartálfar have more in common with fantasy dwarves than drow.


In Rich Riordan's Magnus Chase series, dwarves are descended from maggots, elves are strongly associated with Freya, who is basically an "elf goddess", and Svartálfar are dwarf-Freya hybrids - so they look more elflike than dwarflike.

[the_brazenburn]

In Rich Riordan's Magnus Chase series, dwarves are descended from maggots, elves are strongly associated with Freya, who is basically an "elf goddess", and Svartálfar are dwarf-Freya hybrids - so they look more elflike than dwarflike.

Not even slightly true. We get pretty average examples in Magnus’s friends Blitzen and Hearthstone. Hearth is a classic fantasy elf- tall and blond and skinny. Blitzen is short, black-haired, and bearded. He pretty much a dwarf.

[Millstone85]

Of the elven deities mentioned in MToF, I really like Darahl "Firecloak" Tilvenar. The guy is basically the most dwarven of elven gods, and seeks followers even among the dark elves. I could see good-ish drow cities in the Underdark, fostered by his church.

[hamishspence]

Not even slightly true. We get pretty average examples in Magnus’s friends Blitzen and Hearthstone. Hearth is a classic fantasy elf- tall and blond and skinny. Blitzen is short, black-haired, and bearded. He pretty much a dwarf.

When compared to regular dwarfs, he's a lot taller and a lot less wide. "Elf-dwarf hybrid" rather than "regular dwarf".

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's because "dwarf" and "elf" are two intermingled categories in Norse mythology and not even experts can agree on where which end. Gandalfr ("the elf with the magic wand") was a dwarf king.
Yeah, your point being? Can you find any trace of the Svartálfar in the drow, beyond "they're called dark elves and they live underground"? Because I can't.


They don't have human-like skin tones.
Never claimed they did. I said they were dark-skinned, and that making your evil race dark-skinned (often, if not always, being literally black) has all sorts of unfortunate connotations, which deserve mockery and derision.
(Especially since the "good races" stick to a standard Fantasy Caucasian appearance. Contrast how other "evil races" frequently have more varied skin tones in all settings. Granted, they tend to be grays and greens more than human skin-tones, but that doesn't change the fact that the heroes are typically white and the villains are frequently othered in every aspect of visual design.)

[Millstone85]

Especially since the "good races" stick to a standard Fantasy Caucasian appearance. Contrast how other "evil races" frequently have more varied skin tones in all settings. Granted, they tend to be grays and greens more than human skin-tones, but that doesn't change the fact that the heroes are typically white and the villains are frequently othered in every aspect of visual design.I recently found this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_GWY1rUwAADgnu.jpg

Ideally they would all be more alien than that, but maybe that's the next best approach.

Or not, considering the apparent taboo over a white person playing a black one. Making the character an elf could be seen as a poor way to dodge the issue.

I don't know. :smallconfused:

[ZorroGames]

This has wandered from a playable aquatic race to “Why D&D is racist in Political Correctness terms.”

Please stick to the OP subject.