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Piggy Knowles
2018-05-20, 12:47 PM
INTRODUCTION
With more than a decade and a half of toying around with 3.5, I’ve accumulated a lot of spare builds and ideas. While I don’t have an active game going right now, I still like to pop open my builds folder and try to refine things. Recently I decided to make a dedicated effort to flesh out some of these builds into full write-ups, and reached out to some friends in the CO community who might be interested in doing the same. In the spirit of Tempest Stormwind’s Weekly Optimization Showcase (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?), I thought I’d showcase the end results here.

The goal is (usually) not to show off any fancy new TO trick, but to showcase effective, playable builds and spur discussion. While each of us has a different build philosophy, in general the intent is to create something that can be played in most groups from level 1 to level 20. Again, the goal is discussion, so feel free to discuss the build, talk about other options, make suggestions or tear it all to shreds. Also, feel free to use anything showcased here in any of your campaigns—and let us know how they work out if you do!

Right now the group consists of myself, Darrin, Akal Saris and Venger, with a couple of other folks hopefully on their way. Typically one of us writes up the build concept and possibly a stub, the others share feedback on Discord or in some of the shared documents we have, and together we refine things until we’re happy with the final product. I’ll list the build’s main author whenever I showcase a particular build.

Anyhow, to start things off, here’s one of mine: the Buffsader.


http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37200000/-John-Hannibal-Smith-the-a-team-37241344-350-407.jpg
Buffsader
I love it when a plan comes together…

BACKGROUND
I’m sure we’ve all seen bardic builds using Words of Creation and Dragonfire Inspiration to dish out tons of extra damage. That’s fine and dandy, but what if we wanted something a little more… flexible? Raw damage is great, but sometimes encounters need a bit more finesse. And sometimes you want a character that is comfortable fighting on the frontlines alongside his team, not standing in the background singing.

Crusader is a great start; a White Raven-focused crusader can provide some very useful party support without sacrificing any melee potential. But how can we crank up the party support to 11? How can we provide magical buffs to our party without wasting half the combat casting support spells or dedicating the whole build to persistomancy cheese? Heroes of Battle had a handy answer: the war weaver, a support-focused caster prestige class that allows you to weave magical tapestries that let you boost your entire party in a single action.

The goal here was to create the ultimate combat leader: smart, charismatic, able to turn his entire team into a tactical strikeforce on par with the A-Team. I wanted someone who could fight effectively alongside his team while still providing tailor-made buffs and boosts to his whole party. The end result is a gishy character with +16 BAB, 8th-level maneuvers and stances (hello, Immortal Fortitude) and 5th-level spells, plus some serious party buffing abilities that would put most bards to shame. I don’t usually like gishes unless starting at a high level, since they usually have some really awkward points in their careers, but this build should be playable from 1-20 without any real clunkiness.

THE BASICS

Race: Human. The bonus feat is the draw here, though you can shave a feat off the build if magical locations are allowed (see level one notes), in which case options like gold dwarf and dragonborn become decent alternatives. That said, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it; humans are almost ways a top notch choice for a reason.
Build Stub: Crusader 8/Suel Arcanamach 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/War Weaver 5
Alignment: This build was written with a lawful neutral alignment in mind, but you can adjust it to fit just about any non-evil choice. Just make sure to modify the maneuver and stance you pick at level 11 and 18 accordingly, and swap out the imp for a familiar with a more compatible alignment.


Build Breakdown




Level
Class
Feats
Class Features
Maneuvers/Spells
Notes (Click to Expand)


1st
Crusader 1
Iron Will, Extra Granted Maneuver
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5
Crusader’s strike, charging minotaur, stone bones, douse the flames, leading the attack, martial spirit (s)
This is a fairly standard crusader open, focusing on party support. Iron Will isn’t the most exciting feat but it’s required, and Will saves are important. That said, if you’ll have access to magical locations in your campaign, take Power Attack instead and don’t look back; a few days in the Otyugh Hole will give you what you need.


2nd
Crusader 2

Indomitable soul
Leading the charge (s)
In a melee heavy party, this is the stance I recommend starting every encounter in. The damage boost scales well and it’s a static bonus, meaning that it should be multiplied by effects like Valorous.


3rd
Crusader 3
Keeper of Forbidden Lore
Zealous surge
Mountain hammer
Keeper of Forbidden Lore is a neat little feat from Fiendish Codex with a lot of flavor buried in it. Mechanically it gives you access to spellcraft to help you meet qualifications down the road, but it also aligns nicely with the flavor of the suel arcanamach’s secret knowledge and the unique techniques you’ll pick up down the road as a war weaver and a jade phoenix mage.


4th
Crusader 4

Steely resolve 10
Douse the flames -> tactical strike
Fairly straightforward upgrade, nothing to see here.


5th
Crusader 5


White raven tactics
WRT is the gold standard for party buffing via action and initiative manipulation; used properly, you can functionally give someone an extra turn at the low low cost of a swift action. Get it, love it, never trade it.


6th
Crusader 6
Combat Casting
Smite 1/day
Crusader’s strike -> revitalizing strike
You’re about to take two feats that will basically be set on fire in order to meet qualifications. Here’s the first of them: Combat Casting, a big huge trap that is usually worse than just taking Skill Focus (and we all know how great Skill Focus is). Luckily the crusader chassis is robust enough that all you really need is Extra Granted Maneuver; even throwing away several feats in the early game, you should stay competitive thanks to your maneuvers and class features.


7th
Suel Arcanamach 1

Ignore spell failure 5%, tenacious spells
Nerveskitter
Suel arcanamach is a nice gishy class that will give you access to all the buffs you need as a spontaneous, Charisma-based caster. That’s just perfect for a crusader. Mostly you’ll focus on utility buffs that let you and your party do interesting things rather than straight damage boosts, but for now we’ll start with the all-around great nerveskitter. Getting a sizable boost to your initiative every encounter is pretty hard to beat, especially when you add in WRT and eventually war weaver.


8th
Suel Arcanamach 2

Dispelling strike 1/day
Protection from evil, snake’s swiftness
For my money protection from evil is the best defensive buff in the game. Deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saves against the widest class of creatures in the monster manual is nice, but the real money is in the non-aligned effects: complete protection from possession and mental control. It’s not mind blank, but for a first level spell it’s hard to beat. Snake’s swiftness fits in nicely with your general MO of action-granting. In general it’s a neat option to have but not great (trading a standard action casting time for a single attack by one of your allies is situationally useful but generally going to be worse than just using a strike), but it gets a lot better soon...


9th
Jade Phoenix Mage 1
Enlarge Spell
Arcane wrath, rite of waking
Divine surge
And we’ve got another feat to set on fire. It’s alright, I promise this is the last of them. Jade Phoenix Mage will keep your BAB and IL up while continuing to progress your casting and maneuvers, and again fits surprisingly well flavor-wise with the rest of the build. Divine surge is easily the most underleveled strikes in the entirety of ToB; grab it here and don’t look back.


10th
Jade Phoenix Mage 2

Mystic phoenix stance
Resist energy
Time to grab another handy defensive buff. Resist energy is situationally useful… but when you need it, you really need it. The fact that you’ll soon be able to apply it to your whole party in one go makes it significantly better.


11th
Jade Phoenix Mage 3


Law bearer / Fly
Let the bards focus on mindlessly pumping allies with boring +1s. Your buffing is more tactical in nature, and nothing provides more tactical maneuvering than flight. You also grab another devoted spirit maneuver; pick the one that fits your alignment. I’ve always envisioned this build as a lawful crusader fighting hard against the chaotic roots of her forbidden knowledge, so I went with law bearer.


12th
War Weaver 1
Obtain Familiar
Eldritch tapestry

And now we begin dialing things up to 11. Eldritch tapestry comes online immediately, allowing you to weave your party together so that single spells affect them all. You’re capped at your war weaver level for the spell here, but even at first level that still means things like providing your whole party a +5 to initiative as an immediate action. Picking up a familiar gives you even more actions to play with, and also acts as a way to deliver touch spells to your allies who are a bit outside of reach. Plus, since familiars use your BAB, this will be a capable extra combatant once polymorph comes online.


13th
War Weaver 2

Quiescent weaving 1
Enlarge person, haste
You can now cast second level spells through your tapestry. Remember how I said that snake’s swiftness was a neat tactical option but often not worth the action cost? Well, scratch all that; now for the cost of a single action, you’re providing an extra attack to your entire party.

Quiescent weaving is another fantastic ability. This allows you to pre-cast spells into your tapestry and release them later as a move action. You’ll eventually be able to store up to four spells this way, but even with just one, that’s fantastic action economy.

On the buff side of things, you pick up two classic buffs: enlarge person and haste. Not too much to say about them, except that they are two incredibly useful buffs. (Note that enlarge person isn’t labelled harmless, so you can’t cast it through your tapestry; that’s not actually a huge problem, though, as it’s not necessarily something you want to apply to the whole party anyhow.)


14th
War Weaver 3

Queiscent weaving 2
Blur, polymorph
Another defensive buff to cast through your tapestry comes online here, as well as one of the most powerful and versatile buffs in the game: polymorph. You also gain the ability to cast third level spells through your tapestry now, and can cast two at once. Fly and blur is a great choice: you can now open your typical combat with an immediate action nerveskitter and release your quiescent weaving as a move action, giving your whole party +5 to initiative, flight and a decent miss chance. With your standard action, feel free to open up with haste for even more combat-buffing goodness, or soften your enemies with a powerful strike.


15th
War Weaver 4
Practiced Spellcaster
Quiescent weaving 3
Improved invisibility
Practiced spellcaster shores up suel arcanamach’s mediocre caster level nicely, giving much better duration to your buffs and protecting you from random dispels. Improved invisibility comes online as another bit of fantastic utility. You also get the ability to cast fourth-level spells through your tapestry, and add on an additional spell to your weave. How about opening up combat by spending a move action to turn your whole party into flying, invisible mountain trolls?


16th
War Weaver 5

Enlarged tapestry, quiescent weaving 4
Benign transposition, greater mighty wallop, greater blink
And now we max out our war weaver abilities, giving us fifth-level spells and a whopping four spells at once via quiescient weaving. Greater blink is a great defensive choice, giving a huge miss and spell failure chance, reduced damage from area attacks and the ability to phase through solid walls, and should be added to the top of any list of buffs. You also start picking up some general utility spells here in benign transposition (incredible repositioning utility for the level) and the very nice buff spell greater mighty wallop.


17th
Jade Phoenix Mage 4

Empowering strike
Heroics, investiture of the orthon
With war weaver concluded we pop back into JPM for a couple of levels. Investiture of the orthon is a cool spell that ties in nicely with your forbidden lore theme; it always has seemed a bit overly pricey as a fifth-level spell, but by casting it through your tapestry, it can end up being quite nice.

Heroics is a solid spell in general but worth its weight in gold for an initiator, as you can use it to cherry-pick high level maneuvers and stances. Its only drawbacks are that its duration isn't quite where it needs to be for an all day buff (though with a rod of extend it still does well), and that it can't be cast through your tapestry. Heart of air is another option here, giving you a boost to speed, an "oh crap" option in case you lose your flight and providing nice synergy with heart of earth.


18th
Jade Phoenix Mage 5
Improved Familiar

Castigating strike, aura of perfect order (s) / Heart of earth
Trading out your raven for an imp is a great upgrade for you, primarily thanks to commune. Use your imp’s commune ability to get an idea of what to expect for the adventuring day to come, and tailor your buffstacks accordingly. You can also go with Planar Familiar here for a lantern archon, which loses out on the excellent commune but gains a whole host of party buffing abilities. Heart of earth is a nice all day buff, providing you with a decent chunk of temporary HP and the ability to active stoneskin on command. It's even better if you took heart of air instead of heroics last level, as the two spells combine to also provide fortification.

You also grab the excellent aura of perfect order here; who needs to roll the dice and leave things up to chance when you can just take 11?


19th
Crusader 7


White raven hammer
Popping back into crusader for the last two levels gives some nice timing as far as maneuvers and stances go. White raven hammer will almost never go amiss: no-save stunning as an attack rider is huge, especially against big solo foes.


20th
Crusader 8

Steely resolve 15
Immortal fortitude (s), stone bones -> greater divine surge
One advantage to your delayed progression is that you actually manage to get your hands on 8th-level stances without shenanigans. Take immortal fortitude and never look back.




MANEUVERS KNOWN:
1- Crusader’s strike, charging minotaur, stone bones, douse the flames, leading the attack
2- Mountain hammer, tactical strike
3- White raven tactics, revitalizing strike
4- Divine surge
5- Law bearer
7- Castigating strike
8- White raven hammer, greater divine surge

STANCES KNOWN:
Martial spirit, leading the charge, aura of perfect order, immortal fortitude



SPELLS KNOWN:
1- Nerveskitter, protection from evil, enlarge person, benign transposition
2- Snake’s swiftness, resist energy, blur, heroics
3- Fly, haste, greater mighty wallop
4- Polymorph, improved invisibility, heart of earth
5- Greater blink, investiture of the orthon


Keeper of the Forbidden Lore requires an Int of 13, and you will need at minimum a Charisma of 15 to cast your highest level spells. You don’t have to worry about spell DCs, so you don’t actually need to keep Charisma much higher than that, but it does drive bonus spells and abilities like indomitable soul and smite, so going up as high as 20 certainly wouldn’t go amiss. Assuming standard items are readily available and you’re not operating with any funky WBL I recommend hitting 16 naturally; by the time getting to 20 is relevant, the 16k it costs for a +4 item should be a drop in the bucket.

Other than that, Strength and Constitution are good priorities for any crusader. I personally like focusing on Con in particular; Strength is nice but the most important thing is that you keep on ticking. Con can also be funneled into greater divine surge as a nice damage engine or used with your immortal fortitude stance to keep you standing long after the rest of the world would have dropped.

SAMPLE STAT ARRAY:
28-point buy: Str 13/Dex 10/Con 14/Int 13/Wis 10/Cha 15
32-point buy: Str 13/Dex 10/Con 16/Int 13/Wis 10/Cha 15
--> Boost Strength at level 4, Cha at level 8 and Con at all other levels



At a minimum, the build has the following skill requirements:

Concentration 9 ranks, jump 4 ranks, spellcraft 5 ranks, tumble 4 ranks, know (arcana) 6 ranks, know (nature) 2 ranks, know (religion) 2 ranks, craft (weaving) 6 ranks

This should be easily achievable with an Int of 13. Beyond that, you have a fair bit of flexibility. Don’t bother investing in craft (weaving) beyond the 6 ranks unless you really feel like it; you only ever need to hit a DC 15 and you can explicitly take 10 on the check. Concentration and spellcraft are always great options to keep high, as are your knowledge skills, which will help you identify the ideal buffs to prepare in a given encounter. Crusader also has some solid social skills and you should have a hefty Charisma focus, so feel free to invest in these if you have skill points to spare.



The biggest difference between this build and your typical crusader is the armor. With only 5% ASF ignored, you’ll want to make sure you can always cast spells. Without getting too cheesy, the twilight enhancement on top of mithril armor and the 5% ACF reduction you get from suel arcanamach means you can wear armor that normally carries a 25% ACF, which should firmly put you within range of most medium armors.

For a weapon, you’ll want something bludgeoning to make the most out of greater mighty wallop. I’m personally partial to flails (higher than usual crit rate for bludgeoning weapons, plus you can use them to disarm or trip in a pinch), though hammers and mauls are always a classic.


BUILD SUMMARY
How do we hold up?

A typical 20th-level bard might spend their standard action at the beginning of combat to give out a +4 to attack and damage via inspire courage. An optimized IC-focused bard with all the relevant goodies is probably giving out closer to +14, with the option of instead providing +14d6 fire damage (and possibly even both at the cost of a second standard action). That’s pretty good, though hardly exciting.

You, on the other hand, can start each encounter providing all of your allies +5 to their initiative, flight, improved invisibility, greater blink and polymorph… while still retaining your standard action to cast an additional spell or use a maneuver. With a little bit of prep you can tailor your buffstacks for the encounters you expect to face. You’ve also got a myriad of other party support options, whether it’s manipulating turn order via white raven tactics to give your party extra turns, providing everyone on your team an extra attack via snake’s swiftness cast through your tapestry or locking down foes with white raven hammer.

The flexibility in particular is notable; having the utility to apply things like resist energy, protection from evil or investiture of the orthon to your whole party is a great way to completely turn the tide of relevant encounters.

On top of all this you are a more than passable melee brute: your damage won’t stand up to an ubercharger but with +16 BAB, 8th-level maneuvers and some incredible defensive abilities thanks to solid defensive buffs augmenting the already-excellent crusader goodies such as immortal fortitude, you more than stand your own. Even without Power Attack, you’re certainly no slouch damage-wise; your offensive maneuvers scale decently, greater mighty wallop is a great damage boost and you have some high-damage options like greater divine surge to end encounters when necessary.

VARIANTS
As referenced above, access to the otyugh hole frees up a feat. There are a few good options here: Power Attack is the obvious choice, but there are also some nice goodies like Minor Shapeshift, Arcane Strike or various metamagic feats as well. Improved Familiar is also non-essential (thanks to the wonders of polymorph and the way your familiar shares your BAB, it will be more than capable of fighting alongside you even if you stick with a raven), so it’s another place where there is room for adjustment.

For a slightly different direction, you could attempt to combine this with bardic music to really become a buffing master. A Song of the White Raven crusader with some bard levels and sublime chord into war weaver could definitely have some potential. The problem is, you start running into the law of diminishing returns: for all that you put into the build, the final product just isn’t that much more useful. You wind up with fewer useful low level spells (which are the meat and potatoes of any war weaver), your bardic music is nice but limited compared to a straight bardsader, and you’ll be constantly competing for actions. It also means a less crusader-y crusader. Still, the allure of picking up some bardic music and perhaps even 9th-level spells is strong, and you can tie in some other neat tricks. (In fact, an earlier draft of the build was a bardic war weaver with healing hymn for supercharged party healing.)

Similarly, for somewhat more flexible casting the build can be reworked as a sorcerer. Slower spell progression means that the build doesn't operate as smoothly in the mid levels, but the pay-off in expanded spell list and lower feat requirements is definitely worth consideration. Both ExLibrisMortis and WhamBamSam have brought up ways to make a sorcerous version work in the thread.

***

So there you have it! I hope you enjoy. Commentary, suggestions and play experience are all welcome, as are ideas for future showcases or ways to improve the format.

Troacctid
2018-05-20, 01:21 PM
I'm not a huge fan of taking a buff spell that doesn't work with War Weaver. I'd be more inclined to replace Enlarge Person with a utility spell like Feather Fall, Silent Image, or Swift Expeditious Retreat.

I also like lantern archon better than imp for LN characters. Aid, Greater Teleport, Magic Circle Against Evil, and Detect Evil at will, it's just so good, both in general and with what this build is doing. You do admittedly need 5 ranks in Knowledge (the planes) for Planar Familiar, though.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-20, 01:31 PM
Lantern archon is a great option. I’ll add a note to that effect when I get to a computer. The main draw for the imp was access to commune to help determine the most useful buff stack for upcoming encounters, but the usefulness of spells like that are always going to be heavily dependent on your particular DM. The knowledge requirements actually aren’t hard to fit in, as Keeper of the Forbidden Lore gives you access to knowledge (the planes) as well as spellcraft. The only downside is that by the time it comes online, many of the SLAs have waned in usefulness (as compared to commune, which I find as useful at level 20 as it would be at level 1).

I’ll add some notes about other utility options in place of enlarge person and the heart of X spells, which are all fairly easy to replace in the build.

Troacctid
2018-05-20, 01:53 PM
I don't mind Heart of X so much because of how action-efficient they are as hours/level buffs. Enlarge Person's short duration, though, means you have to cast it in combat, which is not what you want to be doing IMO. (I like it better in combination with Permanency.)

Akal Saris
2018-05-20, 02:06 PM
Great to see this posted!

Efrate
2018-05-20, 02:22 PM
Looking forward to these. I loved the old char op stuff on wotc boards. I have the entirety of them saved on an old laptop.

NineInchNall
2018-05-20, 02:59 PM
It may be that you're overvaluing the +16 BAB breakpoint. The fourth iterative attack from getting +16 BAB rather than +15 is of little marginal value given your maneuver loadout and lack of pounce. There isn't even the potential damage boost from Power Attack, which makes gunning for +16 even less worthwhile. Most of the time you'll be using a maneuver rather than a full attack, so ...

Anyway, I threw together a similar build a few months back for an IRL campaign--at least, similar in being a JPM/War Weaver.

My build was Crusader 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/War Weaver 5/JPM 8. This got me--before Extra Granted Maneuver--9 maneuvers known, 7 (4) readied, and 3 stances known. This compares rather favorably with your 11, 6(3), and 4. While this does drop down to +15 BAB, that's not that big a deal, as I pointed out earlier, and it allows me to get 8th level spells, too.

Casting as a 15th level Wizard--and all that entails--more than offsets the value of that final iterative attack. Not only does it give you the sheer power of something like polymorph any object and a wider selection of buffs for the tapestry, it also provides strategic and tactical options that better fill that "Hannibal" role from the A-Team. On top of that, there's the added survivability of abrupt jaunt combined with the versatility of heroics with Martial Study/Martial Stance.

WhamBamSam
2018-05-20, 04:06 PM
This is fun. I love the old Stormwind Optimization Showcase and always enjoy reading your optimization work. That's a solid lineup of other contributors as well.

I do like War Weaver. It's a touch cheesy, but you ought to be able to stretch the level limit on Eldritch Tapestry using Sanctum Spell, as it lowers the spell level, so you could, for instance, cast a "3rd level" Sanctum Polymorph into the tapestry with only 3 levels of War Weaver. Doesn't ultimately matter much for this build, as it only ends up with 5th level spells, but it could be consequential for a Wizard version like NineInchNall posted.

EDIT: Actually, Sanctum Spell could allow you to drop the 5th level of War Weaver and scrape 9th level maneuvers. War Master's Charge would be a nice thing to have on a leader type build. Maybe not as nice as Quiescent Weaving 4, but nice.

The Viscount
2018-05-20, 05:09 PM
Great to see a master back at the optimization table.

You make excellent use of the spell selection you have. I wonder if you could extract some utility out of one of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium, or arcane disciple to add some more buffs I'm sure you were considering.

Xethik
2018-05-21, 03:21 PM
Echoing the sentiment about looking forward to seeing all of these! Tempest Stormwind's Optimization Showcases are some of my favorite D&D 3.5 content and this thread holds up to that level.

Irk
2018-05-21, 11:53 PM
I've not really been that active on here for a few years, but this post is really great. There's so much versatility packed into this build, and loads of potential for RP via the forbidden knowledge subtheme and the use of commune as buff intelligence.

I'm wondering if the spells in levels 14-16 can be slightly changed for more flexibility and strength. If you swap out Polymorph for Stoneskin then swap Greater Blink for Draconic Polymorph and either switch the Investiture spell for Greater Blink or keep it for flavor, it seems like you could eke out a bit more advantage.

Polymorph caps out at level 18 when the build's CL hits 15, but getting Draconic Polymorph at 16 instantly gets you stronger, 16 HD forms, and Stoneskin is just another decent buff. I suppose this depends on how big of a power boost Polymorph ends up being (generally pretty substantial), in which case the argument is that it should be obtained as soon as it possible. That said, it can only be cast into the tapestry at level 15, while Draconic Polymorph becomes available immediately.

It's a tradeoff between a level of Polymorph utility and one of the 5th level spells in exchange for Stoneskin and a stronger, wider array of Polymorph forms. It might be a variant worth considering, but I could be missing something.

Some other general things. I like that you can be in Mystic Phoenix Stance while casting spells into the tapestry pre-combat via Quiescent Weaving to make them stronger when released without needing to be in MPS during combat when better options are available. I was also wondering what you thought of Heroics as a potential replacement spell here. I haven't looked into the options too deeply, but another poster mentioned it and I'm curious if it was considered. I can see the argument for flexibility and the argument for a tighter, more focused build.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-22, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback, folks. Glad you like the showcase.

@NineInchNail

I do agree that hitting +16 BAB is often overrated for initiators, but it's more a happy circumstance than a requirement. That said, in practice, I find that even big chunky crusaders find themselves in situations where a full attack is going to be better than going for a strike or other maneuver. Most crusader maneuvers are limited to single target strikes or charges, which aren't always ideal, and unless you're playing an idiot crusader there's always the chance that your best damaging strike hasn't been granted yet. Plus, with things like haste and greater mighty wallop, your full attacks are actually pretty potent even without Power Attack. It's not an absolute requirement to hit +16 BAB, and ordinarily I'm a big fan of challenging arbitrary benchmarks like this, but it certainly doesn't hurt in this case.

(That said, I do really like your wizardly version.)

@WhamBamSam

Thanks for the kind words!

Sanctum Spell certainly will let you stretch the limits of your tapestry and quiescent weaving, though I tend to stay way the hell away from that feat in actual games. Suel arcanamach's casting ties in so well with war weaver that I never really found the idea of cheesing in higher level spells all that necessary, though as you say it could be a neat trick in more lactose-tolerant games with a different casting base.

@The Viscount

Thanks!

I looked into other ways of expanding casting, but a lot of them ended up feeling really unnecessary. Arcane Disciple adds on a pretty hefty Wisdom requirement for fairly limited returns, considering that many of the best buff spells you might cheat access to don't actually work with war weaver. That said, there are so many domains that I'm sure there are some gems to build around. In particular I think you could probably nab some really cool defensive buffs that way. It would require some rejiggering of the build, but I'd be interested to see if you come up with any cool build alternatives this way.

Bloodlines are a different animal altogether; they're one of my favorite ways to expand spontaneous caster lists because you get so much for fairly small investment. In this case, though, very few bloodline spells actually help here. Though there are a few buffs that could work here, most of them are already available to you via suel arcanamach, so at most you end up just saving a spell slot. It's a possibility, but I think if I worked an extra feat into the build I'd go with something like Minor Shapeshift, Power Attack or Extend Spell instead.

@Irk

Glad you liked the build. I really enjoy when disparate elements end up working together so well flavor-wise, as happened here with Keeper of the Forbidden Lore and the fluff behind the Grimoire Arcanamacha. Doesn't make a lick of a difference power-wise, but things like that are really fun to me.

Draconic polymorph unfortunately does not qualify for your tapestry, as it is a personal spell. Otherwise it would be an excellent option to re-order things as you suggest (although I probably would not take stoneskin, because the costs of applying stoneskin to your entire party get fairly high... instead I'd probably move improved invisibility up a level and then go with a more general defensive buff like greater resistance).

It's actually funny you should mention heroics. When I was talking about spells I regretted not fitting in, that was the top of my list... because I had a huge brain fart and in my head thought it was an enchantment spell rather than a transmutation. Turns out I'd been confusing it with heroism. While it doesn't work with your tapestry for some reason (because somehow it neither requires a willing target nor is it labelled as harmless... which I guess means you can use it offensively if you find a bad enough fighter feat?), it's still a fantastic choice for any initiator thanks to the ability to use it to cherrypick a high level maneuver or stance. It's definitely a great option over heart of air.

Irk
2018-05-22, 10:05 AM
Ah, I missed the range on Draconic Polymorph. I'm glad that's part of War Weaver though, it could get absurd wuick if it weren't. Good point with Stoneskin, I didn't consider the costs.

It's very strange that Heroics isn't harmless, I wonder if there's some sort of precedent to change a spell to be harmless/apply to willing targets.

Do you guys have a general plan for build releases, or is it just as they emerge? The people involved in this have produced some of the content I've enjoyed the most when I used this forum, and I'm looking forward to more stuff in this format.

Xethik
2018-05-22, 10:08 AM
I was looking over some domains for my Bard/Sublime Chord War Weaver. The fact that I had Ability Enhancer and my party composition melee heavy likely made it better than it would be in this build, but Valiant Fury from the Courage Domain looked fantastic. I'm not sure if it would be worth the feat investment, especially when you could choose from so many great feats.

From Bloodlines, it looks like the Celestial Bloodline would grab Protection from Evil but prevent you from taking Investiture of the Orthon. Similarly, Earth would grant Enlarge Person but ban Heart of Air. Some of the defaultly good ones seem like they may work alright, like Anarchic or Draconic, but they aren't doing a ton for your buffing. I'm not seeing any gems, but I'm sure someone can find something good.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-22, 11:17 AM
Do you guys have a general plan for build releases, or is it just as they emerge? The people involved in this have produced some of the content I've enjoyed the most when I used this forum, and I'm looking forward to more stuff in this format.

We've got a pretty good idea of what we'll do for the next couple of showcases. We were planning on having something showcased by each of us to start things off. The next one will likely be one of Akal Saris' dives into the deep end of the alignment pool. Once we all get something showcased, we'll probably run it the way Stormwind & Co ran things and post a few builds and let people vote on what they want to see next.

Irk
2018-05-22, 11:24 AM
Neat, looking forward to it.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-05-22, 12:53 PM
You're using a lot of feats to qualify for Suel Arcanamach, including one to pick up Spellcraft. What's the additional value compared to, say, Sorcerer 1/Heartfire Fanner 1?

Irk
2018-05-22, 01:55 PM
You're using a lot of feats to qualify for Suel Arcanamach, including one to pick up Spellcraft. What's the additional value compared to, say, Sorcerer 1/Heartfire Fanner 1?

I might be counting it wrong, but I believe that Sorceror 1/Heartfire Fanner 1 with the 8 extra casting levels from War Weaver and JPM would not net you 5th level spells, but this set up gets you full Suel Arcanamach casting.

remetagross
2018-05-22, 01:58 PM
You're using a lot of feats to qualify for Suel Arcanamach, including one to pick up Spellcraft. What's the additional value compared to, say, Sorcerer 1/Heartfire Fanner 1?

I don't know what the stance of the author relatively to sources is, but the fact that Heartfire Fanner is from DragMag could be a deterrent.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-05-22, 02:13 PM
I might be counting it wrong, but I believe that Sorceror 1/Heartfire Fanner 1 with the 8 extra casting levels from War Weaver and JPM would not net you 5th level spells, but this set up gets you full Suel Arcanamach casting.
You're counting wrong :smalltongue:. Sorcerer 1/Heartfire Fanner 1/War Weaver 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5 provides 10th-level sorcerer casting, which comes with six extra spell slots (plus six cantrips), although you lose a 4th- and 5th-level spell known (getting 11th-level sorcerer casting would change that, but this build isn't about getting tons of casting, I understand that).

Mind you, qualifying for Heartfire Fanner is not easier than qualifying for Suel Arcanamach. You're still burning three feats on entry (one to get Perform, and then Negotiator/Skill Focus--Heward's Hall can provide the latter, as the Otyugh Hole can grant Iron Will), and the skill requirements are higher (though you still take up level 7-8). However, it does get you some sweet goodies, such as 5th-level bardic music, which can be improved to 13th-level with one feat, +5 from a vest of legends, +4 from Chaos Music. As nice as (improved) familiars are, I just don't think they compare to Song of the White Raven, especially if Words of Creation is on the table.

With Song of the White Raven, you can provide Quiescent Weaving, Inspire Courage, and Dragonfire Inspiration all on the same turn. That's really awesome.


I don't know what the stance of the author relatively to sources is, but the fact that Heartfire Fanner is from DragMag could be a deterrent.
Absolutely. I would still question the use of Suel Arcanamach over sorcerer (or another caster), though.

Irk
2018-05-22, 02:32 PM
I haven't played in a while and I think that I doubled the spell level and then added 1 instead of subtracting 1 for the level that Wizards get 5th level casting, which is also not correct because Sorc casting is different. My mistake.

My second guess is that this is meant to be an alternative to the traditional bardsader builds, and Heartfire Fanner strays too much in that direction. Suel Arcanamach fits flavorwise, has some martial synergy, and makes it much harder to dispel the buffs the build runs on.

That said, you could probably do a bardsader variant that used Heartfire Fanner to chain together martial study feats to let party members access higher-prerequisite maneuvers, which could be cool.

Darrin
2018-05-22, 02:43 PM
Absolutely. I would still question the use of Suel Arcanamach over sorcerer (or another caster), though.

If you switch the race to Illumian and take Improved Sigil: Krau, then Sorcerer 2 or Wizard 2 should slot in there rather well. Maybe trade the familiar for Draconic Heritage or one of the other ACFs.

Race: Illumian
Stub1: Crusader 6/Wizard 2/JPM 2/War Weaver 5/JPM +3/Crusader +2.
Stub2: Crusader 6/Sorcerer 2/JPM 3/War Weaver 5/JPM +2/Crusader +2.
Feats: EGM (1st), Improved Sigil: Krau (3rd), Martial Stance (6th), Enlarge Spell (9th), Obtain Familiar (12th), Practiced Spellcaster (15th), Improved Familiar (18th).

Spell progression is a little slower, but you still get 5ths with better spell selection.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-05-22, 02:51 PM
If you switch the race to Illumian and take Improved Sigil: Krau, then Sorcerer 2 or Wizard 2 should slot in there rather well. [...] Spell progression is a little slower, but you still get 5ths with better spell selection.
And with Aeshkrau, you could get bonus spells from Strength, reducing the Charisma (or Intelligence) requirement to the bare minimum of 15. That should enhance the spell slot advantage even more.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-22, 03:04 PM
I'm not a big fan of DragMag material (I find it basically akin to homebrew most of the time... nothing inherently wrong with it and it occasionally produces some good material but generally a bad idea to assume it’s allowed). I don't generally allow it at my tables and so I don't usually build with it. I've come around a bit on the Dragon Magazine Compendium (it is not my favorite book, but its official status and wider distribution means that most tables are OK with it), but the actual magazine content is not something I personally use.

Even assuming that it was being used, though, you'd have to cheese up to second level spells somehow in order to qualify for JPM. That would also delay entry to war weaver as well, since you wouldn't get access to third level spells for another two levels with that layout. There are ways around this, but other than using Versatile Spellcaster cheese or the like, they pretty much all require losing IL and missing out on that juicy 8th level crusader stance.

As for SA versus sorcerer in general, even if you find a way around the issues with qualifying for JPM/War Weaver without losing IL, I think SA definitely has some selling points. The feat requirements are a bit tough, but in addition to providing all the casting the build needs, those two levels also grant a reduction in ASF and a pretty hefty defense against dispelling (+6 DC to dispel checks is huge, and alongside Practiced Spellcaster puts you on par with a full caster). And as you mentioned SA also has a more robust spells known list for the higher levels compared to a regular sorcerer (one fewer first level spell known, but an extra fourth and fifth level spell known), which IMO is a decent trade for the drop in spells per day. It's not a bad option if you can make it work, but I don't think SA is bad either.

I'll fiddle a bit and see if I can find a way to make sorcerer qualification work without giving up too many crusader goodies. If I figure anything out, I'll post it under variants.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-05-22, 04:01 PM
I'm not a big fan of DragMag material (I find it basically akin to homebrew most of the time... nothing inherently wrong with it and it occasionally produces some good material but generally a bad idea to assume it’s allowed). I don't generally allow it at my tables and so I don't usually build with it. I've come around a bit on the Dragon Magazine Compendium (it is not my favorite book, but its official status and wider distribution means that most tables are OK with it), but the actual magazine content is not something I personally use.

Even assuming that it was being used, though, you'd have to cheese up to second level spells somehow in order to qualify for JPM. That would also delay entry to war weaver as well, since you wouldn't get access to third level spells for another two levels with that layout. There are ways around this, but other than using Versatile Spellcaster cheese or the like, they pretty much all require losing IL and missing out on that juicy 8th level crusader stance.

As for SA versus sorcerer in general, even if you find a way around the issues with qualifying for JPM/War Weaver without losing IL, I think SA definitely has some selling points. The feat requirements are a bit tough, but in addition to providing all the casting the build needs, those two levels also grant a reduction in ASF and a pretty hefty defense against dispelling (+6 DC to dispel checks is huge, and alongside Practiced Spellcaster puts you on par with a full caster). And as you mentioned SA also has a more robust spells known list for the higher levels compared to a regular sorcerer (one fewer first level spell known, but an extra fourth and fifth level spell known), which IMO is a decent trade for the drop in spells per day. It's not a bad option if you can make it work, but I don't think SA is bad either.

I'll fiddle a bit and see if I can find a way to make sorcerer qualification work without giving up too many crusader goodies. If I figure anything out, I'll post it under variants.
The +6 to Dispel checks is the only thing I see SA bringing to the table. Everything else can be replaced by simply getting another level of some spellcasting class, such as the classic Spellsword dip.

For example, illumian crusader 6/sorcerer 1/spellsword 3/jade phoenix mage 4/war weaver 5/JPM +1 gets you 11th-level casting (at CL 17), IL 15, and bonus spells off of Strength*. Spellsword grants a bonus feat, compensating for the early entry feat required (Improved Krau Sigil), and adds -15% arcane spell failure chance. The three extra real caster levels are probably at least as good as the +6 to dispel DC. You free up two feats, as well.

Alternatively, replace Spellsword with Abjurant Champion, and you can drop IKS. Replace sorcerer with (martial) wizard, and you only need to take two levels of AC/Spellsword, freeing up a crusader level. Or even just take crusader 1/bard 4/spellsword 1/jade phoenix mage 4/war weaver 5/JPM +4/crusader +1. You end up with 15th-level casting (at CL 19--3 5th-level spells known, which does include greater heroism and greater blink), IL 15, 6th-level Inspire Courage, and no feats spent on entry (meaning you can get Chaos Music, Words of Creation, and Song of the White Raven--swift-action +6 IC with just a vest of legends).

Really enjoying the thread so far, so don't take this criticism as dislike, because it's not. I've been tinkering with a divine bardsader myself, which I may post later.


*Replacing sorcerer 1/spellsword 3 with sorcerer 3/spellsword 1 costs you some base attack, but gives you an extra level of spellcasting, including 6th-level spells. But since you can't put them in war weaves, it's besides the point of the build.

lylsyly
2018-05-22, 04:09 PM
I am watching this one with great interest. Always looking for more inspiration ;D

Troacctid
2018-05-22, 06:23 PM
I think Suel Arcanamach's faster progression is more valuable than what you would get from Sorcerer. It's a full two levels ahead for each new spell level. That's very relevant.

WhamBamSam
2018-05-23, 10:42 AM
I'll fiddle a bit and see if I can find a way to make sorcerer qualification work without giving up too many crusader goodies. If I figure anything out, I'll post it under variants.Since I've already pointed to Sanctum Spell as a way to cheese higher level spells into the Eldritch Tapestry then you would otherwise be able to, I might as well also bring it up as a way to cheese early entry as well. Crusader 4/Sorcerer 2/JPM 3/War Weaver 5/Spellsword 1/JPM+5 gets up to 6th level spells in the Eldritch Tapestry with the stance at JPM 5 coming at IL 15, and Crusader 4/Sorcerer 2/JPM 3/War Weaver 4/JPM and Crusader +7 hits IL 17 for War Master's Charge at 20th with spells up to 5th level in the tapestry. But again, it's cheesy beyond what can reasonably be accepted, and I think I might favor the Suel Arcanamach version anyway for the reasons you and Troacctid have laid out.

Without early entry cheese, Human Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/JPM 3/War Weaver 5/Spellsword 1/JPM+1/Crusader +3/JPM +1 gets an 8th level maneuver and stance at 20th level and ends up with 6th level spells. If you make it Battle Sorcerer you hit 16 BAB, though the loss of spells known makes it almost certainly not worth it.

NineInchNall
2018-05-23, 12:34 PM
Without early entry cheese, Human Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/JPM 3/War Weaver 5/Spellsword 1/JPM+1/Crusader +3/JPM +1 gets an 8th level maneuver and stance at 20th level and ends up with 6th level spells. If you make it Battle Sorcerer you hit 16 BAB, though the loss of spells known makes it almost certainly not worth it.

You probably want to start with one level of Crusader for survivability, as well as delay JPM levels as much as possible in order to maximize initiator level for maneuver & stance selection. That way you can use your WBL to meet maneuver prerequisites.

WhamBamSam
2018-05-23, 12:45 PM
You probably want to start with one level of Crusader for survivability, as well as delay JPM levels as much as possible in order to maximize initiator level for maneuver & stance selection. That way you can use your WBL to meet maneuver prerequisites.Starting with Crusader is an option, though it loses out on a bunch of 2nd level maneuvers. I guess the third JPM level can be switched with Spellsword, but War Weaver requiring 3rd level spells means a few of them do have to come in levels 6-9. JPM 4 doesn't give any maneuvers/stances, but aiming for high level maneuvers is precisely why I delayed JPM 5 to 20th level.

NineInchNall
2018-05-23, 01:12 PM
Starting with Crusader is an option, though it loses out on a bunch of 2nd level maneuvers. I guess the third JPM level can be switched with Spellsword, but War Weaver requiring 3rd level spells means a few of them do have to come in levels 6-9. JPM 4 doesn't give any maneuvers/stances, but aiming for high level maneuvers is precisely why I delayed JPM 5 to 20th level.

2nd level maneuvers are nice, but life at level one is significantly better as a Crusader than as a Sorc, and being solid at all levels is one of piggy's goals. Since you're hitting exactly +15 BAB anyway, and Crusader 3+ gives approximately jack and crap (seriously, smite and a bigger delayed damage pool? get outta here) why not ditch those levels entirely for more JPM levels? Gives the same level of maneuver access and more, better spells.

Switching to Battle Sorcerer in this case brings us to +16 BAB while still having more spells known and per day than the SA version.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-23, 01:17 PM
Good lord, how did I let this go four days and 25 posts without realizing I’d made a typo in the thread title? The English major in me is ashamed...

Anyhow, I appreciate the feedback, all. I’ll be adding the sorcerer versions proposed by Wham and ExLibris to build alternatives, as well as the Planar Familiar option. I’ll also probably move Heroics to the main build.

WhamBamSam
2018-05-23, 01:18 PM
2nd level maneuvers are nice, but life at level one is significantly better as a Crusader than as a Sorc, and being solid at all levels is one of piggy's goals. Since you're hitting exactly +15 BAB anyway, and Crusader 3+ gives approximately jack and crap (seriously, smite and a bigger delayed damage pool? get outta here) why not ditch those levels entirely for more JPM levels? Gives the same level of maneuver access and more, better spells.You only hit IL 15 at 20th, so that level needs to be JPM 5 in order to get an 8th level maneuver and stance without items or Heroics.

NineInchNall
2018-05-23, 01:19 PM
But ... you do have items.

Darrin
2018-05-23, 01:37 PM
But ... you do have items.

For optimization purposes (and various Iron Chef competitions), you can't assume that the player has control over his WBL, which magic items are available, or what the DM may or may not allow in the campaign. So it's best to show how a build works without magic items.

If you do have access to magic items that enhance the build... that's just extra frosting.

Zaq
2018-05-24, 09:08 AM
I don’t have as much to add as I was hoping, but this build is pretty neat just on its face! I consider War Weaver to be borderline broken out of the box—giving the Wizard that much crazy action economy is a higher power level than I usually like—but this feels intuitively less obnoxiously powerful than a full caster while still very firmly taking care of business. (I’m trying to indicate that that’s a good thing, but I’m not sure if I’m succeeding.) War Weaver is a clever way of stretching SA’s relatively limited slots per day, even above and beyond the action economy advantages.

Would it be much effort for you to discuss your earlier draft that relied on Bard spells rather than SA spells (with or without SC)?

Xethik
2018-05-24, 02:53 PM
I don’t have as much to add as I was hoping, but this build is pretty neat just on its face! I consider War Weaver to be borderline broken out of the box—giving the Wizard that much crazy action economy is a higher power level than I usually like—but this feels intuitively less obnoxiously powerful than a full caster while still very firmly taking care of business. (I’m trying to indicate that that’s a good thing, but I’m not sure if I’m succeeding.) War Weaver is a clever way of stretching SA’s relatively limited slots per day, even above and beyond the action economy advantages.

Would it be much effort for you to discuss your earlier draft that relied on Bard spells rather than SA spells (with or without SC)?

Not Piggy so I won't speak for his build, but I had drafted a very similar character concept but ended up going Bard-Paladin and avoiding ToB. My rough build stub was Bard 7/War Weaver 1/Crusader 1/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/War Weaver 2-5/JPM 2-5 and then either AbjChamp or Sublime 2 to finish off the build. I believe you can replace 3 of the Bard levels with Lyric Thaumaturge with some early entry shenanigans and level juggling, but I could be wrong.

You definitely end up with depressingly few low level spells and stretched higher level spells as well, but you do get those higher level spells, so there's that upside. Keep in mind you actually can't get some of those non-Bard Sorc/Wiz spells easily, especially if you can't fit Lyric Thaumaturge in, so beware of that. There are some Bard specific or level discounted buffs to sort of make up for that, though.

Piggy Knowles
2018-05-25, 07:49 AM
Would it be much effort for you to discuss your earlier draft that relied on Bard spells rather than SA spells (with or without SC)?

No problem, though it gets a bit complicated because most builds go through a fairly tangled process in my head before they turn into something I like. Let's see if I can reconstruct...

I'd originally been building a party face/healbot/defensive behemoth involving soothing voice bard, crusader, sublime chord, JPM and IotSV. As I'm sure you can imagine, the build was a teensy bit all over the place. While the build itself didn't really speak to me, I decided to stat it out as a war weaver instead of IotSV, which freed up two levels and still fit in well with the theme. The working build then became bard 4/crusader 2/JPM 4/sublime chord 2/war weaver 5/lyric thaumaturge 3, and involved healing hymn to supercharge healing spells cast via tapestry. It still felt a bit clunky and wasn't actually something I was that interested in playing, so I decided to pare things down even further and rebuild from scratch, keeping war weaver but focusing a lot more on the crusader side.

I probably will find something interesting to do with healing hymn at some point (the returns on healing are so significant there that if you can mitigate the action cost typically associated with healing via cure spells, in-combat healing actually becomes worthwhile), though I'm not sure that war weaver is going to be what I end up going with.

rrwoods
2018-05-25, 02:02 PM
One of my favorite things about this is that you put the Otyugh Hole option in the build notes and offered a replacement, rather than just assuming it. Very DM-agnostic, which I really appreciate.

EDIT: Do you have commentary on items? You're a mix of melee and buff-casting, so itemizing like a mix of those two types of characters (or even just itemizing like a straight gish) is probably "fine", but if there's any specific notes on items you think are good on this build in particular, that'd be really useful for people playing this (or something like it) at a real table. EDIT EDIT: I totally missed the "Equipment Recommentations" spoiler, ignore me!

I really really like this build, you've given your comrades a tough act to follow!