3.5 Basic books optimisation.

[Evoker]

Challenge: Using only the DMG, PHB, and MM, build the most optimal character. 20th level with standard wealth by level. Must be realistically playable at all levels. Leadership stacking(Giving your cohort leadership) is banned, but the feat itself is not. No chaining wishes off of summoned creatures. Creativity is desired!

[Venger]

is there a particular goal here, or something else to prevent the answer from just being "druid 20" ?

[Evoker]

Just wanted to see what the community comes up with. There are lots of optimization threads, but they are all incredibly complex, using a ridiculous amount of books. Thought it might be interesting to see what happens if I limit the books to just the 3 core.

[Zaq]

Any of the full casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and to a lesser extent Sorcerer) are fully playable with just the PHB (though tossing in Archmage or whatever doesn't usually hurt). But this isn't going to be a terribly interesting discussion because the discussion honestly pretty much ends there; most core-only Druid 20 builds are close enough to being identical that you aren't going to find anything you weren't expecting.

What exactly bothers you about bringing in additional sources? Why do you characterize that as being "ridiculous"? With some reasonable variance for bonus feats and stuff, most builds are fundamentally going to be putting together the same number of macro-level building blocks: the same number of HD-granted feats, the same number of class levels, and so on. Once they're all laid out in the build, there shouldn't be that much more actual material in a "ridiculous" build than in one that's core-only, even if the number of different options chosen looks bigger on a build where the Cleric takes a few nice PrCs than in one in which they choose "Cleric" 20 times.

Or put another way, a Barbarian 8 has the same number of class levels as a Barb 4 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Bear Warrior 1. They each looked at their "class" line eight times and made eight total decisions there, gaining the appropriate class features at each of those eight steps (and they therefore have eight levels of class features apiece). They have the same number of HD-granted feats, presumably the same number of races, and probably a reasonably comparable number of skill points (which should probably be considered a function of class levels). They aren't fundamentally different, even if the second build takes advantage of more books. They made approximately the same number of fundamental decisions. One isn't actually that much more or less "complex" than the other.

Now sure, the second build is likely to be more interesting, but if advancing in one class doesn't give interesting or unique class features for most or all of its progression, shouldn't we celebrate being able to build towards features we care about rather than counterintuitively declaring the boring builds to be somehow less "ridiculous"?

[Covenant12]

Core three books with leadership allowed: Druid 20 with god wizard cohort or god wizard with druid cohort. Druid is a lot more powerful first 10 levels. But I've played plenty of wizards from level 1, they excel. Core god wizard I'd definitely go archmage, maybe loremaster as well if bored, druid I wouldn't prestige at all. Both will have quicken spell at 20/18.

Both get foresight and shapechange, wizard gives mind blank 24/7 for both. Wizard can nova with time stop, druid can mass summon and buff army with animal growth and the like. Cleric is still very powerful, but core only I don't like it for world-shaking power as much as druid/wizard.

[Evoker]

What exactly bothers you about bringing in additional sources? Why do you characterize that as being "ridiculous"?

Just the sheer unlikeliness and cost of obtaining all of the books.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I assume that getting an army of wish SLA bearing Simulacra is illegal?

I'd go with Diviner Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 5.

Abuse circle magic along with your standard powerful Wizard spells like Shapechange, Gate, Time Stop, ect.

EDIT: It goes with out saying that you'd take Leadership.

[Covenant12]

Doh, played a red wizard in a long campaign 3.0, completely forget the were in the 3.5 DMG. Yeah, circle magic means ignore SR and immune dispel, barring disjunction or high epic stuff. Simulacra yourself repeatedly for circle magic if you can't find a 21+ target.

[Troacctid]

Druid 20.

Next challenge please!

[ColorBlindNinja]

Druid 20.

Next challenge please!

Build a viable level 20 core Monk! Without Leadership! :smallwink:

[Troacctid]

Build a viable level 20 core Monk! Without Leadership! :smallwink:
Monk 1/Druid 19.

Next challenge please!

[Goaty14]

On a somewhat related question: If a character with a high CHA takes leadership, then is it possible for their cohort to be a higher level than themselves?

Also a related note: Leadership's Cohort can only take NPC class levels, since cohorts with PC class levels are a ELH variant rule.

[Venger]

On a somewhat related question: If a character with a high CHA takes leadership, then is it possible for their cohort to be a higher level than themselves?

Also a related note: Leadership's Cohort can only take NPC class levels, since cohorts with PC class levels are a ELH variant rule.

No.

I've never heard of any such rule that cohorts can only take npc levels. Where is that written?

Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself.

[Covenant12]

On a somewhat related question: If a character with a high CHA takes leadership, then is it possible for their cohort to be a higher level than themselves?

Also a related note: Leadership's Cohort can only take NPC class levels, since cohorts with PC class levels are a ELH variant rule.No, you can only recruit cohorts two levels or more below you, regardless of leadership score. (Interesting I never noticed epic leadership allows one level lower, but that would take an impressive score) I don't see anything about cohorts losing levels if you do from level drain/raise dead, so I guess its possible that way but not desirable. I can't find the rule, but I've read they stop leveling if that would make them closer than two levels above, as well.

That epic level handbook variant rule applies, to followers, not cohorts. Since this is core three you could well argue all followers are npc classes, and I'd support that.

DMG just vaguely specifies you can attempt to recruit cohort by race and class. I'm not seeing anything barring PC classes, or implying NPC only.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Just wanted to see what the community comes up with. There are lots of optimization threads, but they are all incredibly complex, using a ridiculous amount of books. Thought it might be interesting to see what happens if I limit the books to just the 3 core.
This is approximately the most common request on these boards. At the same time, the answer is very similar each time: the three full prepared casters dominate at high levels (where "high" can start anywhere from level 7 to level 11, depending on optimization level; it's hard to argue with polymorph and the like), and low levels are pretty consistently for druids and barbarian/fighter mashups. As such, the obvious "must be playable at all levels" build is druid 20.