How to find a hidden lich phlanctrophy?

[Joe dirt]

Assuming an ancient lich has it hidden how would a group of adventurers really defeat one?

[georgie_leech]

They would attempt to find it, perhaps involving one or more adventures in exotic locales to uncover hidden clues.

Less tongue in cheek, if other avenues are exhausted you can dust them with your favorite anti-lich strategies and start combing the area of wherever they pop up again.

[Unoriginal]

Assuming an ancient lich has it hidden how would a group of adventurers really defeat one?

Thing is, normally, they wouldn't.

Liches are smart, and ancient liches are even smarter (they need to, to become ancient). They're not usually going to make gross mistakes revealing where the item is. Acererak is basically impossible to kill for good for this very reason.


Best way to find a phylactery would be to find someone to spy on the lich 24/7 and find where the lich goes to to feed souls to the phylactery. The more options to go in other planes the lich has, the harder it is to find the phylactery.

Beings such as Celestials, Fiends and Gods might help you. So could beings who deal with death.


Less reliable way is to study the lich's MO and every places it could go given its ressources and the time limit.

[HolyDraconus]

Thing is, normally, they wouldn't.

Liches are smart, and ancient liches are even smarter (they need to, to become ancient). They're not usually going to make gross mistakes revealing where the item is. Acererak is basically impossible to kill for good for this very reason.


Best way to find a phylactery would be to find someone to spy on the lich 24/7 and find where the lich goes to to feed souls to the phylactery. The more options to go in other planes the lich has, the harder it is to find the phylactery.

Beings such as Celestials, Fiends and Gods might help you. So could beings who deal with death.


Less reliable way is to study the lich's MO and every places it could go given its ressources and the time limit.

Those avenues might not be able to help you either depending on how powerful the lich is (Acererak as an example) and the ones that become REAL demiliches (again, Acererak) can actually drain souls on the go, so they don't need to hang out near that glaring weakness.

[ImproperJustice]

I once GM’d a game where a Lich built an entire elaborate dungeon to draw adventurers to come and fight and do battle, in a giant throne room with him and a bunch of impressive animated bodyguards.

There was even a secret door that led to a room which held hundreds of jars and some veiled clues as to which one was really his phylactery.

The whole thing was a sham of courese. The Lich in the dungeon was a powerful construct and the phylactery room was just a mixture of some props and illusion magic.

The real Lich worked out of the basement of an abandoned shack somewhere high in the mountains nearby.

He would drop by every hundred years or so, rebuild the constructs, restock the treasure and phylactery room and then return to his experiments.
When he needed to borrow test subjects from the nearby town he would spread rumors about the Legendary Lich and his evil fortress nearby who returns every 100 years to cause chaos!

[Astofel]

For the most powerful liches, not much short of divine intervention is going to reveal the location of the phylactery. Either that, I'd have the players need to seek out some kind of ancient, powerful entity who was around to see the lich come to power to begin with and knows where the phylactery is, or can find out with powerful magic. Sphinxes, ancient dragons, powerful hags, vampires, and my personal favourite, aboleths, all fit the bill. Who knows what these creatures might want in exchange for the information, though.

[Atalas]

yeah, basically, you're just not gonna find it. Liches, by their very nature, are smart (except Xykon). If they lich had been preparing for lichdom for an exceedingly long time, it'll have spells like Demiplane ready to make a place no one else has immediate, easy access to to hide its phylactery.

I'm in a game where we just accidentally pulled a lich's body out of an artifical zone of dead magic. It immediately cast Time Stop, took the wizard's Staff of Power since she set it aside to try and pry the lich' spellbook out of the presumed skeleton's arms, and is now staring us down as of the end of session

[Astofel]

@everyone saying it's just impossible for the party to find, while that's probably the realistic answer it's imo a very boring one. As a player I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I had an enemy that I just couldn't kill for good, who just comes back after a few weeks to continue their nefarious ways and plots. Besides, as both a player and a DM which of these two scenarios sounds more exciting?

Players: We want to put this lich down for good, where's his phylactery?
DM: It doesn't matter, the lich is super duper smart and he's made it impossible for anyone to find.

or

Players: We want to kill the lich forever, how do we do that?
DM: First, you'll need to discover the location of his phylactery. The lich is unspeakably ancient, and only the ancient aboleths remember a time before his rise to power. They might know where it is, but who knows what they'll ask of you in return for telling you? Once you know where it is, you'll have to actually get there to retrieve it, braving many perils and horrors on your journey. Then, you'll have to figure out how to bypass the lich's many magical safeguards and destroy the cursed artifact, which might require yet another perilous adventure. Finally, you'll have to track down the now-desperate and terrified lich before he can make a new one. Be warned, if he's cornered he'll bring his full wrath down upon you, and hold nothing back. It'll be difficult, but if you succeed you will have finally rid the world of an ancient and terrible evil.

[Tetrasodium]

Assuming an ancient lich has it hidden how would a group of adventurers really defeat one?

If it was a very stupid lich just hanging out near their phylactery, detect magic or start groping around for something colder than it should be? A lich hanging out near their phylactery would be like an adventurer casting clone & then bringing the clone on the road with them.
If it's a lich at least as smart as the average int10 commoner?... worst case, cast wish. Locate object might work if in range I guess

[Tetrasodium]

@everyone saying it's just impossible for the party to find, while that's probably the realistic answer it's imo a very boring one. As a player I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I had an enemy that I just couldn't kill for good, who just comes back after a few weeks to continue their nefarious ways and plots. Besides, as both a player and a DM which of these two scenarios sounds more exciting?

Players: We want to put this lich down for good, where's his phylactery?
DM: It doesn't matter, the lich is super duper smart and he's made it impossible for anyone to find.

or

Players: We want to kill the lich forever, how do we do that?
DM: First, you'll need to discover the location of his phylactery. The lich is unspeakably ancient, and only the ancient aboleths remember a time before his rise to power. They might know where it is, but who knows what they'll ask of you in return for telling you? Once you know where it is, you'll have to actually get there to retrieve it, braving many perils and horrors on your journey. Then, you'll have to figure out how to bypass the lich's many magical safeguards and destroy the cursed artifact, which might require yet another perilous adventure. Finally, you'll have to track down the now-desperate and terrified lich before he can make a new one. Be warned, if he's cornered he'll bring his full wrath down upon you, and hold nothing back. It'll be difficult, but if you succeed you will have finally rid the world of an ancient and terrible evil.

stopping their plans is easy. Kill all their henchmen, burn all their notes, take all their wealth, maybe destroy or claim their home (castle/keep/cottage/cave/etc) as well for good measure. It's going to take more than a couple weeks for the lich to restart operations.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

@everyone saying it's just impossible for the party to find, while that's probably the realistic answer it's imo a very boring one. As a player I'd find it incredibly frustrating if I had an enemy that I just couldn't kill for good, who just comes back after a few weeks to continue their nefarious ways and plots.

I recommend trickery. I've killed the unkillable, escaped the inescapable, beaten the unbeatable.

Off the cuff:




Planar Ally - scout it for you
Clerics can call on their god for Divine intervention
Create a simulacrum as you - link your minds together telepathically ( or magic jar), then have him fight as you against the lich - before "you" die convince him to tell you the location of phlanctrophy, since "you" will die and it don't matter. Then the real you go destroy it.
Make a deal with a Devil to help you
Make a deal with a Genie - Wish
Just use the spell wish




VC

[Astofel]

stopping their plans is easy. Kill all their henchmen, burn all their notes, take all their wealth, maybe destroy or claim their home (castle/keep/cottage/cave/etc) as well for good measure. It's going to take more than a couple weeks for the lich to restart operations.

Maybe, but the lich itself comes back after just 1d10 days. If the players really solidly kicked its ass then all it has to do is wait until they all die before it continues its plans, so the PCs' victory was hollow in the end.

[Tetrasodium]

Maybe, but the lich itself comes back after just 1d10 days. If the players really solidly kicked its ass then all it has to do is wait until they all die before it continues its plans, so the PCs' victory was hollow in the end.


Erandis Vol (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Vol) has been going for a few thousand years trying to revive her dragonmark since the dragons killed her (killed as in there was a war and her entire bloodline was wiped out to be sure) & her mother (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Minara_Vol) raised her as a lich. She's generally smart enough not to push too far in ways that would bring things hunting her. Any lich of notable age that wasn't killed off quickly due to scheming should have big goals that they can't just pick back up in a couple weeks if the adventurers are thorough with destroying things. Even if they could, they should be smart enough not to do it right now/right here again.

[Astofel]

Erandis Vol (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Vol) has been going for a few thousand years trying to revive her dragonmark since the dragons killed her (killed as in there was a war and her entire bloodline was wiped out to be sure) & her mother (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Minara_Vol) raised her as a lich. She's generally smart enough not to push too far in ways that would bring things hunting her. Any lich of notable age that wasn't killed off quickly due to scheming should have big goals that they can't just pick back up in a couple weeks if the adventurers are thorough with destroying things. Even if they could, they should be smart enough not to do it right now/right here again.

Exactly, which is why the lich simply waits until the party dies of old age, scheming and plotting in the background, until finally it can continue its plans or execute a new one, meaning all the party did in the end was delay it and their victory was meaningless. This is the exact reason that I hate the 'ancient and powerful evil can only ever be sealed away, never destroyed' trope. All that happens is that it's delayed over and over again, and because it essentially has an infinite amount of attempts to make at its goals, eventually it succeeds and all those 'victories' against it meant nothing.

As a player, I want to at least have a chance of winning for good, no matter how slim. I'll seal the bad guy away if destroying it becomes impossible for me, in the hopes that maybe somewhere down the line someone else can manage to destroy it. But if destruction is just impossible full stop, why even bother?

[HolyDraconus]

Exactly, which is why the lich simply waits until the party dies of old age, scheming and plotting in the background, until finally it can continue its plans or execute a new one, meaning all the party did in the end was delay it and their victory was meaningless. This is the exact reason that I hate the 'ancient and powerful evil can only ever be sealed away, never destroyed' trope. All that happens is that it's delayed over and over again, and because it essentially has an infinite amount of attempts to make at its goals, eventually it succeeds and all those 'victories' against it meant nothing.

As a player, I want to at least have a chance of winning for good, no matter how slim. I'll seal the bad guy away if destroying it becomes impossible for me, in the hopes that maybe somewhere down the line someone else can manage to destroy it. But if destruction is just impossible full stop, why even bother?

While not a lich, the warrior in Diablo did do something similar to what you suggest.... he died. Gruesomely. And his soul... last I checked was corrupted to the point that it's unrecognizable. Doesn't help matters that the prime evils were merged... but that's a lesson for another day.

[War_lord]

Erandis Vol is actually a good example here. She was turned into a Lich as a teenager against her will, as part of a last ditch attempt by her Mother to keep their Dragonmark preserved. She doesn't even know what her Phylactery is or where it's actually hidden, because her Elf mother and Green Dragon father weaved every magic at their disposal to make her impossible to kill.

But if you wanted to stop her plans, trashing her operations would be pretty effective at doing that. Even if you're a powerful undead wizard, resources have to be gathered, alliances need to be forged, enemies need to be killed, bought off or subverted. You might never be able to totally stop an ancient Lich that's planning to destroy the world, but you can kick the can 100 years down the road and make sure the right organizations are ready for the next emergence.

[Unoriginal]

As I said, let the Lich guide you to it.

A Lich needs to do regular trips to the phylactery, and it can't hide *all* its means to travel there.


Also, Atalas: Xykon is smart. Very smart, even. He's lazy, that's not the same.

[Tetrasodium]

As I said, let the Lich guide you to it.

A Lich needs to do regular trips to the phylactery, and it can't hide *all* its means to travel there.


Also, Atalas: Xykon is smart. Very smart, even. He's lazy, that's not the same.
Sure it can. Underground vault with no way in or out & nothing even remotely nearby.... Thin layer of lead lining the walls to prevent scrying... Teleport....

[Unoriginal]

Sure it can. Underground vault with no way in or out & nothing even remotely nearby.... Thin layer of lead lining the walls to prevent scrying... Teleport....

You can't teleport from anywhere. The spell has limits.


Sure, it'd be difficult to find regardless, but "within teleportation range of X point" is far better than "we have no idea how it could be"

Same thing if the Lich uses Gate or another form of planar travel: someone will notice unless you're Acererak-level at finding remote demiplanes. The question is how you get this someone to tell you.

[War_lord]

You can't teleport from anywhere. The spell has limits.


Sure, it'd be difficult to find regardless, but "within teleportation range of X point" is far better than "we have no idea how it could be"

Same thing if the Lich uses Gate or another form of planar travel: someone will notice unless you're Acererak-level at finding remote demiplanes. The question is how you get this someone to tell you.

The only limit of teleport is that it needs to be on the same plane. Even if you're capable of tracking which plane the Lich casts teleport in, enough planes are infinite that that really doesn't narrow it down.

[Unoriginal]

The only limit of teleport is that it needs to be on the same plane. Even if you're capable of tracking which plane the Lich casts teleport in, enough planes are infinite that that really doesn't narrow it down.

Weird, I could have sworn there was a limit in distance. Thanks for correcting me.

[Amdy_vill]

Assuming an ancient lich has it hidden how would a group of adventurers really defeat one?

as long as you know the real name of the lich just kill him then scry and hope it is not in a anti scrying area. also you could do research on the lich in life and early death to see where he frequented and look in that area.

[War_lord]

I think a Lich would be smart enough to use anti-scry methods and to not leave the phylactery in a place that could easily be tied to their past.

[Chaosmancer]

Exactly, which is why the lich simply waits until the party dies of old age, scheming and plotting in the background, until finally it can continue its plans or execute a new one, meaning all the party did in the end was delay it and their victory was meaningless. This is the exact reason that I hate the 'ancient and powerful evil can only ever be sealed away, never destroyed' trope. All that happens is that it's delayed over and over again, and because it essentially has an infinite amount of attempts to make at its goals, eventually it succeeds and all those 'victories' against it meant nothing.

As a player, I want to at least have a chance of winning for good, no matter how slim. I'll seal the bad guy away if destroying it becomes impossible for me, in the hopes that maybe somewhere down the line someone else can manage to destroy it. But if destruction is just impossible full stop, why even bother?

I agree with everything you are saying, but I've seen too manyweapons, go the other way.

I actually played in a game where the Lich had something the party needed. So we went to its city. There were thousands of zombies which were more of a "we don't want to waste a session fighting these" threat since we were heavily kitted against the undead. No real problem sneaking through. Walked up the lich's tower, no real traps or anything. Fought the Lich, killed it and when we asked about the Phylactery he essentially said "you smash it with your magic weapons, it is dead forever, congrats"


I'd say those scenarios are a) more common and b) more frustrating than the scenario of a villian you can never fully kill off.

[Astofel]

I agree with everything you are saying, but I've seen too manyweapons, go the other way.

I actually played in a game where the Lich had something the party needed. So we went to its city. There were thousands of zombies which were more of a "we don't want to waste a session fighting these" threat since we were heavily kitted against the undead. No real problem sneaking through. Walked up the lich's tower, no real traps or anything. Fought the Lich, killed it and when we asked about the Phylactery he essentially said "you smash it with your magic weapons, it is dead forever, congrats"


I'd say those scenarios are a) more common and b) more frustrating than the scenario of a villian you can never fully kill off.

Well that sounds like a real anticlimax. As always in D&D, DMs have to strike a balance between making the party's goals achievable and making them difficult. I'd only allow a situation like that to occur with a young, newly formed lich who's still overconfident. Even then, a phylactery is basically the equivalent of a legendary magic item, destroying it should take more than just hitting it with a sword.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I recommend trickery. I've killed the unkillable, escaped the inescapable, beaten the unbeatable.

Off the cuff:




Planar Ally - scout it for you
Clerics can call on their god for Divine intervention
Create a simulacrum as you - link your minds together telepathically ( or magic jar), then have him fight as you against the lich - before "you" die convince him to tell you the location of phlanctrophy, since "you" will die and it don't matter. Then the real you go destroy it.
Make a deal with a Devil to help you
Make a deal with a Genie - Wish
Just use the spell wish




VC

Just going to point out that your third point there wouldn't actually work, unless you were in a campaign with no access to resurrection magic. Otherwise it's pretty easy to bring you back to life, and the lich with literally inhuman intelligence wouldn't fall for it. It could also arguable detect that it's facing down a simulacrum with it's truesight.


A creature with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceives the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane.

Your DM's mileage may vary, though.

[Temperjoke]

Deck of Many Things, Vizier card can provide the information and the knowledge of how to use it. Don't forget, according to the MM, "Destroying a lich's phylactery is no easy task and often requires a special ritual, item, or weapon. Every phylactery is unique, and discovering the key to it's destruction can be a quest in and of itself." So without knowing how to destroy it, you may not get very far depending on how your DM wants to roll.

Here's a question I've got though, is it possible for a lich to have more than one phylactery? And when a lich is forced to respawn, it goes to the closest one?

[Chaosmancer]

Well that sounds like a real anticlimax. As always in D&D, DMs have to strike a balance between making the party's goals achievable and making them difficult. I'd only allow a situation like that to occur with a young, newly formed lich who's still overconfident. Even then, a phylactery is basically the equivalent of a legendary magic item, destroying it should take more than just hitting it with a sword.

Yeah, I actually had a group who was utterly confused when a psuedo-phylactery used by a major villian wasn't destroyed when the barbarian hit it with his magic axe.

I think they literally looked at me and asked "so what are we supposed to do?"

They ended up handing it off to an NPC and forgetting about it

[Unoriginal]

Here's a question I've got though, is it possible for a lich to have more than one phylactery? And when a lich is forced to respawn, it goes to the closest one?

No, it's not possible by-the-book (DMs can change that, of course).

However, if the phylactery is broken while the Lich is still alive, they can create a new one without issue