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JellyPooga
2007-09-05, 08:49 PM
Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not here to say that "Warforged suck" or that they're really any worse than any other playable race.

However, I've heard a lot of people talking about how Warforged make good (as in game-mechanically good, as opposed to R-P good) characters...and I just don't particularly see why and I need enlightening.

As far as I can see they get:

1)Living Construct+Fortification: About half of the good stuff from the Construct type in exchange for losing about half the bad stuff about it. This kinda roughly balances out as far as I can tell...

2)Ability modifiers: ummm, we're in negatives now.

3)Composite Plating: Free leather armour at the cost of not being able to wear any other armour...err, this isn't good. Sure you can take feats to get better "free" armour, but they're not exactly extensive and don't provide the best available. This, IMO, is more for the negative.

4)Slam attack: A bad one at that. This is not compensation...for (2)+(3)...

5)Favoured Class: Well, I suppose it's alright if you wanted that 2 level dip that's the only thing that the class is good for...


Please, someone tell me what I've missed! I quite like the idea of playing a Warforged, from an RP perspective, but cannot help but think that they're somewhat sub-par mechanically...they're unsuitable as Arcane Casters 'cos they can't take off that armour, they're beat-down as Divine Casters 'cos of their stat penaties, they've got nothing going for them as Stealthers, they can't even be a Linguist (no bonus languages), let alone the party Face! They seem to be stuck with being a Meat Shield that can't be easily healed (unless the party wizard devotes some slots to Repair spells)...do they really have so few options?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-09-05, 08:56 PM
Half the good stuff of being a construct=Still good for PC's. Not to mention being immune to so many of the scourges to a PC on a daily basis and still having a Con score, not to mention a Con bonus. They get more hitpoints and are far more capable of keeping them. Not to mention warforged feats.

TSGames
2007-09-05, 09:12 PM
Warforged Juggernaut is also a very good PrC when combined with shock trooper, which is an essential feat for your typical power attacking high powered melee build. Also, alter self, and the rest of the polymorph subschool, make it a very good choice for character race.

JellyPooga
2007-09-05, 09:21 PM
Warforged Juggernaut is also a very good PrC ...

Just had a look at it...and yes, it is...but I can't fathom why it doesn't have full BAB...:smallconfused:

The_Snark
2007-09-05, 09:25 PM
I might add, also, that having the equivalent of full plate is rather powerful at level 1.

They're not mechanically great at anything, in particular. They don't get the really big construct immunities, like critical hits, mind-affecting things, and anything with a Fortitude save, but they do get some nice ones; poison, disease, and energy drain. Immunity to fatigue is nice, too, since you can keep watch all night long (too bad about the Wisdom penalty). The natural weapon and composite plating means that they're literally always ready to fight.

They also have access to some nice feats; there's one that gives them heavy fortification, from what I recall. Not mechanically great, but a warforged holds its own in most classes. (Anything that doesn't rely on Wisdom or Charisma too heavily, in other words).

StickMan
2007-09-05, 09:25 PM
Just had a look at it...and yes, it is...but I can't fathom why it doesn't have full BAB...:smallconfused:

Welcome to my world.

I think that Warforged make good role play charters as well, if you want to roleplay. Some people play them as big dumb, mindless constructs which is just wrong as they are as smart as any human.

TSGames
2007-09-05, 09:27 PM
Just had a look at it...and yes, it is...but I can't fathom why it doesn't have full BAB...:smallconfused:

Huh...
I hadn't even noticed that. I even played one, and I just assumed it had full BAB. I also can't see why it wouldn't have full BAB.

Mr. Moogle
2007-09-05, 09:28 PM
warforged feats like mithral/adamantium body allow one to obtain good armor cheaply. A heavly armored healer/tank is a great addition to any group but at low levels the good kinds of armor are to expensive, warforged solve that problem entirely.

TimeWizard
2007-09-05, 09:43 PM
JellyPooga, I love the thread title so much I had to make a post.... actually I don't know anything about warforged really... But hey, DnD robots are cool right? Guys? hey where are going! Hey don't leave me here!

TSGames
2007-09-05, 09:48 PM
Mr. Moogle, I love the thread title so much I had to make a post.... actually I don't know anything about warforged really... But hey, DnD robots are cool right? Guys? hey where are going! Hey don't leave me here!

IDK...every time I play one, I have the strongest desire to make my character pick someone up and eat them. Without a bag of devouring, this isn't easy to do.

Benejeseret
2007-09-05, 10:03 PM
Subtle things.

Not sleeping means an all night guard never taking the -20 to listen etc.

Not sleeping means crafting items becomes easy, allowing crafting while adventuring or doubling crafting output.

Not breathing means not drowning, not inhaling the poison gas. Not eating and not sleeping means no food costs and no Inn costs.

Feats like Unarmored Body gets rid of light fort, but also all the armor restrictions, while keeping the other benefits.

Certain spells work very, very differently for warforged. Alter Self....lets you assume another form within your type......this means warforged become transformers becoming large animated objects of ANYTHING.

Modified Die Hard feat for free.

Immune to paralysis, disease, poison and energy drain make allot of monsters a whole lot less threatening.

Free slam attack means your unarmed attacks are not treated as such (loss of unarmed penalties)

Alleine
2007-09-05, 10:11 PM
I don't really think the -2 wis and -2 cha as bad as most people seem to think they are. So you can't play the most elite sorc/cleric ever, so what? There are plenty of classes that don't rely on cha and wis. Warlock, for example, is a fun warforged class for RP reasons and doesn't rely heavily on cha, but more dex, so the warforged can be a fun and effective race. The Warlock also gets no arcane penalty in light armor.

I must admit the Warlock is only one example and widely considered a weak class, but there are other classes and items that can make the warforged very interesting to play fluff-wise and crunch-wise.

skywalker
2007-09-05, 11:09 PM
I don't really think the -2 wis and -2 cha as bad as most people seem to think they are. So you can't play the most elite sorc/cleric ever, so what? There are plenty of classes that don't rely on cha and wis. Warlock, for example, is a fun warforged class for RP reasons and doesn't rely heavily on cha, but more dex, so the warforged can be a fun and effective race. The Warlock also gets no arcane penalty in light armor.

I must admit the Warlock is only one example and widely considered a weak class, but there are other classes and items that can make the warforged very interesting to play fluff-wise and crunch-wise.

Dude, the warlock's saves are CHA based. Also, one of his primary skills is *use magic device.* The warlock's primary stat is charisma.

On the subject of warforged, beyond what other people have already said, I think the advantages balance out the dis-advantages. They're not sub-par, but they're not above average, either. They're a fun role-play choice, and also an interesting choice for those who have bad luck with saving throws, for instance. People are glad to pay money for light fortification, why not get it "for free?"

About their armor, beyond the adamantine body etc. feats, the warforged can be enchanted further, which means his AC can increase just like a human upgrading his favorite set of full plate. Sure, he has to be there for the entire process, unlike other adventurers with their armor, but is the fighter really gonna leave his +2 mithral full plate to be upgraded to +4 while he goes into a dungeon? No, he's gonna be in the tavern for ale and whores, cuz he wants the best protection possible.

My last point has to do with the repair spells, that is, the warforged was designed for ebberron, where there is a large preponderance of artificers, who are far better at caring for a warforged(Typically, and fluff-wise, at least) than a wizard.

EDIT: You also have the improved fortification feat you can get at level 6 of any full bab class, that makes you totally immune to sneaks, crits, etc, but cannot be healed by healing spells at all. Looks like a small price to pay for total immunity to precision damage. Don't they make potions(oils?) of repair?

Pokemaster
2007-09-05, 11:35 PM
You're immune to pretty much every annoying thing the undead can do, you can march for days on end without rest, Adamantine Body makes you pretty tough and combining Cleave and charge feats gives you a pretty sweet mental image of an adamantine golem ripping lines of orcs and goblins apart.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-09-05, 11:38 PM
Warforged make absolutely brilliant armies for those wishing to abuse the leadership feat a little. A warforged commoner makes a far, far better soldier then a human commoner.

Seffbasilisk
2007-09-05, 11:44 PM
I always liked the idea of Warforged Barbarian. I mean...no fatigue! Rage whenever you damn well please!

I had a Warforged Barbarian with a Adamantine maul in one game, aiming to Sunder his way through anything he couldn't kill, but the game sorta petered out...

I remember having him just tunnel through encounters and the DM saying something along the lines of '....that was supposed to slow you down at least...'

TSGames
2007-09-05, 11:58 PM
You're immune to pretty much every annoying thing the undead can do...

You may want to check again, you still take negative levels, ability damage, and ability drain. Unless you go into warforged juggernaut, you're just as vulnerable to undead as the next squishy humanoid.

The_Snark
2007-09-06, 12:15 AM
You may want to check again, you still take negative levels, ability damage, and ability drain. Unless you go into warforged juggernaut, you're just as vulnerable to undead as the next squishy humanoid.

You are immune to energy drain*, poison, paralysis, disease, sickening, and nausea. Ability damage and drain (such as from wraiths and shadows) is still a problem, but right there, this means that ghouls, ghasts, spectres, wights, and arguably vampires* (I wouldn't let them drain blood from a warforged...) are much less threatening.

They have the best immunities of any LA +0 race.

*But not negative levels; you might still vulnerable to Enervation.

leperkhaun
2007-09-06, 12:38 AM
Huh...
I hadn't even noticed that. I even played one, and I just assumed it had full BAB. I also can't see why it wouldn't have full BAB.


All the immunities you get, the less than fighter BAB makes up for that a bit since the "you cant be healed by healing spells" means very little.

Beleriphon
2007-09-06, 12:45 AM
All the immunities you get, the less than fighter BAB makes up for that a bit since the "you cant be healed by healing spells" means very little.

Also note that the 3/4 BAB matches the construct BAB. One might almost assume there was a link between becoming more construct like and the BAB...

The_Werebear
2007-09-06, 12:51 AM
... and arguably vampires* (I wouldn't let them drain blood from a warforged...) are much less threatening. .

I just got the best mental image of a pissed off vampire at the dentist's office after trying to bite into a Warforged neck on accident.

Anyway, I like warforged. They are solid, and better than a lot of the other race options available. Constitution boosts are really the best of the racial modifiers, and that can usually cover for what few immunities they do lack. Though, I do think composite plating should be an option, with unarmored body being the other choice.

Dervag
2007-09-06, 01:18 AM
You are immune to energy drain*, poison, paralysis, disease, sickening, and nausea. Ability damage and drain (such as from wraiths and shadows) is still a problem, but right there, this means that ghouls, ghasts, spectres, wights, and arguably vampires* (I wouldn't let them drain blood from a warforged...)I would, but would also force them to treat it as a poison to which they are not immune- having machine oil where you're supposed to have blood can't be good for you.

Vonriel
2007-09-06, 01:46 AM
Erm, machine oil? Aren't warforged just metal cast over a wooden frame and magically animated?

Overlard
2007-09-06, 06:15 AM
Dude, the warlock's saves are CHA based. Also, one of his primary skills is *use magic device.* The warlock's primary stat is charisma.
Actually it's Dex. Charisma is nice, but you're perfectly able to keep it average and get along quite well. The strength of the warlock is that if they make the save, you can try again six seconds later - their save DCs will nearly always be lower than any other caster of the same level anyway. You don't even need a minimum Cha to cast invocations - you could have a Cha of 3 and still use dark invocations.

JellyPooga
2007-09-06, 07:46 AM
Thanks for the responses guys! I'm kinda warming up to the abilities they have now, but I'm still erring on the side of "but why don't they also get..."

For instance...they get immunity to fatigue and don't need to eat or sleep. Great! They can keep marching all day and all night...oh no wait, they still take non-lethal damage...no forced marches then...immune to fatigue but have to rest...uh, what?:smallconfused:

Someone mentioned an "Unarmoured Body" Feat as well...2 things; 1)Where can I find this feat and 2)Why don't they start with no armour and have an "Armoured Body" Feat?...makes more sense to me to have Feats add different levels of armour, rather than a couple that 'upgrade' it and one that removes it.

Still on the armour thing; Sure, full plate (with DR/Adamantine) 1st level is good, but it's no better than someone who's bought it at later levels, except the non-Warforged guy who bought his armour has an extra feat on you.

I like the idea of a Warforged Warlock...instead of his 'powers' stemming from demonic origins, I see "him" as the latest model with in-built weapons and upgrades:

Eldritch Blast = Energy Cannon
Brimstone Blast = Flamethrower
Baleful Utterance = Sonic Death Ray
Leaps and Bounds = Hyper Overdrive Mode
Entropic Warding = Shields
Fell Flight = Jump Jets
And so on and so forth...To explain why he gains "new" invocations, part of his backstory is that he doesn't remember where he was made or what, exactly, he is. As he adventures, he 'discovers' that he has these 'upgrades' almost by accident:

Picture the scene: a low helicopter shot swoops in over a small circle of light surrounded by the Hordes of Darkness, within which a our band of four weary Heroes fend off the unending tide of Evil...the mighty Warrior, clad in full plate armour falls, with a cry, to a sneaky goblin attack. The towering Warforged, who's been busy peppering his foes with small blasts of energy from an arm-mounted cannon, hears the cry and swings around to aid his friend. As he does so, a different cannon clicks and whirrs its way from his arm and releases a huge gout of flame, incinerating a swathe of orcs...the melee pauses for a moment, the combatants awestruck by this display of power...

"Hey guys! Did you see that?! Did you see what I did?! That is soooo COOL!!! I'm gonna see if I can do it again!"

ImperiousLeader
2007-09-06, 08:30 AM
Aside from the uneven stat modifiers, I quite like Warforged, they make good Artificers regardless of their CHA penalty. Beguilers are an interesting choice that bypasses their armour and doesn't fear the WIS and CHA penalties.

Warforged immunities and CON bonus make a lot of adventures challenging to run. I'm DMing an Age of Worms campaign with two 'Forged PCs (a Factotum and a Barbarian), and they sneer at a lot of the challenges the Whispering Cairn throws at them. Heck, the Lair of the Labourers was pathetically easy for them.


Someone mentioned an "Unarmoured Body" Feat as well...2 things; 1)Where can I find this feat and 2)Why don't they start with no armour and have an "Armoured Body" Feat?...makes more sense to me to have Feats add different levels of armour, rather than a couple that 'upgrade' it and one that removes it.

1. Races of Eberron
2. It is an upgrade, one for spellcasting 'Forged.

Indon
2007-09-06, 08:37 AM
Another Warforged benefit: their natural "armor" doesn't count as armor for the purposes of things like Monk abilities, so sometimes it's a way to wear armor when you otherwise couldn't (I don't think it reduces Arcane Spell Failure, though).

Benejeseret
2007-09-06, 09:11 AM
Unarmored Body
[Warforged]
(RoE p120)

Citizen Joe
2007-09-06, 09:26 AM
I like the idea of a Warforged Warlock...instead of his 'powers' stemming from demonic origins, I see "him" as the latest model with in-built weapons and upgrades:

Eldritch Blast = Energy Cannon
Brimstone Blast = Flamethrower
Baleful Utterance = Sonic Death Ray
Leaps and Bounds = Hyper Overdrive Mode
Entropic Warding = Shields
Fell Flight = Jump Jets
And so on and so forth...To explain why he gains "new" invocations, part of his backstory is that he doesn't remember where he was made or what, exactly, he is. As he adventures, he 'discovers' that he has these 'upgrades' almost by accident:

This can also be explained by the Artificer that originally created him, built him as the final incarnation and then put in security protocols and safety lockouts until he was sure about complete loyalty. Since Warlock magic is based on Pacts, this makes sense too. Assuming, the artificer is still alive, he could probably utter the release codes and activate everything. But then again, he could probably utter the shutdown or self destruct codes as well. If the Artificer is dead, then the warforged warlock would have to work his way around the various lockouts and bypass internal security protocols to get his upgrades to work.

ALOR
2007-09-06, 09:45 AM
I like the idea of a Warforged Warlock...instead of his 'powers' stemming from demonic origins, I see "him" as the latest model with in-built weapons and upgrades:

Eldritch Blast = Energy Cannon
Brimstone Blast = Flamethrower
Baleful Utterance = Sonic Death Ray
Leaps and Bounds = Hyper Overdrive Mode
Entropic Warding = Shields
Fell Flight = Jump Jets
And so on and so forth...To explain why he gains "new" invocations, part of his backstory is that he doesn't remember where he was made or what, exactly, he is. As he adventures, he 'discovers' that he has these 'upgrades' almost by accident:


Oh wow I totally love this idea, consider this stolen :smallbiggrin:

TSGames
2007-09-06, 11:38 AM
You are immune to energy drain*, poison, paralysis, disease, sickening, and nausea. Ability damage and drain (such as from wraiths and shadows) is still a problem, but right there, this means that ghouls, ghasts, spectres, wights, and arguably vampires* (I wouldn't let them drain blood from a warforged...) are much less threatening.

They have the best immunities of any LA +0 race.

*But not negative levels; you might still vulnerable to Enervation.

I guess we have slightly different definitions of what is annoying. Maybe it's just the characters I play.

lord_khaine
2007-09-06, 11:50 AM
besides warforget makes for unusualy effective psions and psychic warriors, being able to manifest in heavy armor without any problems and healing to full effect because its not from the healing subschool.

martyboy74
2007-09-06, 03:10 PM
I like the idea of a Warforged Warlock...instead of his 'powers' stemming from demonic origins, I see "him" as the latest model with in-built weapons and upgrades:

Eldritch Blast = Energy Cannon
Brimstone Blast = Flamethrower
Baleful Utterance = Sonic Death Ray
Leaps and Bounds = Hyper Overdrive Mode
Entropic Warding = Shields
Fell Flight = Jump Jets
And so on and so forth...To explain why he gains "new" invocations, part of his backstory is that he doesn't remember where he was made or what, exactly, he is. As he adventures, he 'discovers' that he has these 'upgrades' almost by accident:

Picture the scene: a low helicopter shot swoops in over a small circle of light surrounded by the Hordes of Darkness, within which a our band of four weary Heroes fend off the unending tide of Evil...the mighty Warrior, clad in full plate armour falls, with a cry, to a sneaky goblin attack. The towering Warforged, who's been busy peppering his foes with small blasts of energy from an arm-mounted cannon, hears the cry and swings around to aid his friend. As he does so, a different cannon clicks and whirrs its way from his arm and releases a huge gout of flame, incinerating a swathe of orcs...the melee pauses for a moment, the combatants awestruck by this display of power...

"Hey guys! Did you see that?! Did you see what I did?! That is soooo COOL!!! I'm gonna see if I can do it again!"

http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/samus_1.jpg

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-06, 03:18 PM
Just had a look at it...and yes, it is...but I can't fathom why it doesn't have full BAB...:smallconfused:

If it had a full BAB, it would be absolutely devastating!

Warforged Juggernaughts play the fighter's role, yet get none of the fighter's weaknesses. They are immune to mind affecting spells, which means will saves don't hurt them. Stuff like energy drain and enervation don't touch them, nor would stuff like inflict critical wounds. Enchantment spells have no effects, which means they can't be slept or dominated or any of the typical stuff that shuts down your fighter. Their adamantium armor means they aren't making their reflex saves, but with con as a primary stat and a d12 hitdie, it won't matter.

The only real mechanical disadvantage to them is the 3/4 BAB.


I always liked the idea of Warforged Barbarian. I mean...no fatigue! Rage whenever you damn well please!

I had a Warforged Barbarian with a Adamantine maul in one game, aiming to Sunder his way through anything he couldn't kill, but the game sorta petered out...

I remember having him just tunnel through encounters and the DM saying something along the lines of '....that was supposed to slow you down at least...'

My friend has a Warforged Barb1/ftr4/juggernaught5/Bear Warrior 2. Transform and roll out!

ImperiousLeader
2007-09-06, 04:02 PM
The only real mechanical disadvantage to them is the 3/4 BAB.

Considering it's what, a 5 level class, that's only 2 points of BAB lost. As long as your other classes are full BAB, you still have 4 attacks, and 18 BAB at level 20.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-06, 04:06 PM
I might add, also, that having the equivalent of full plate is rather powerful at level 1.

"Being good at level 1" is not a good balancing factor. See Also: Fighter v. Wizard.

Ghal Marak
2007-09-06, 04:20 PM
I'm actualy playing a Warforged Swashbuckler5/Warlock4 right now. I'm having a blast so far. :smallbiggrin:

Person_Man
2007-09-06, 04:30 PM
Natural Attacks can be used as secondary attacks at -5 in addition to your normal attack routine when you make a full attack. The FAQ (pg 88) specifically says that you can switch a Two Handed Weapon into an off hand to carry it in order to make a natural slam or claw attack. Thus Warforged always get an extra attack whenever they make a full attack action. That's pretty handy, in my opinion, especially since natural attacks count for Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

The_Werebear
2007-09-06, 04:50 PM
I'm actualy playing a Warforged Swashbuckler5/Warlock4 right now. I'm having a blast so far. :smallbiggrin:

Blast, as in Eldritch Blast?:smallcool:

I'm a horrible person.

Alleine
2007-09-06, 06:07 PM
Dude, the warlock's saves are CHA based. Also, one of his primary skills is *use magic device.* The warlock's primary stat is charisma.

I'm well aware of what the warlocks saves are based on, but as I look at all the invocations that have saves, precious few of them are useful. And if you're looking at Word of Changing, by the time you get Dark invocations there are plenty of other ways to boost the DC.

Anyways, this sounds a lot like the warforged I made a few days ago! Only mine is newly created as a prototype 'forged with amazing abilities based on his construction that he is slowly discovering. His is by far the best backstory I've come up with ever, and I haven't even fleshed it out yet.

Ghal Marak
2007-09-06, 11:52 PM
Blast, as in Eldritch Blast?:smallcool:

I'm a horrible person.

I actualy didn't catch that when I wrote it. I wish I did it on purpose. :smallyuk:

Peregrine
2007-09-07, 01:38 AM
I actualy didn't catch that when I wrote it. I wish I did it on purpose. :smallyuk:

Heh. Here I thought you had. But trust Werebear to pick up on it... this is the same person that said:


...I like warforged. They are solid...

We've got a warforged warlock in my current game. Actually, he multiclassed into wizard, so he's a warforged warlock/wizard. (I am not making this up.) He doesn't have that great an effect in combat, although the DM likes throwing things at us that we have trouble reaching to hurt, so the eldritch blast helps out there. Outside combat, he's our superlative nightwatchman, which counts for a lot in this campaign. He's also well roleplayed and good for a laugh fairly often.

mabriss lethe
2007-09-08, 11:10 PM
We've got a warforged warlock in my current game. Actually, he multiclassed into wizard, so he's a warforged warlock/wizard. (I am not making this up.) He doesn't have that great an effect in combat, although the DM likes throwing things at us that we have trouble reaching to hurt, so the eldritch blast helps out there. Outside combat, he's our superlative nightwatchman, which counts for a lot in this campaign. He's also well roleplayed and good for a laugh fairly often.

There seem to be a lot of warforged warlocks running around. (I'm getting ready to play one soon. Still need to make a few more choices though.)

After seeing the swarm of 'forgelocks running around, I'm almost tempted to chuck it all and play a warforged spellthief. Once they reach 4th level, they can become their own repair-bot. the "repair damage" suite of spells falls under the auspice of the Transmutation school, to which the spellthief has full access.

Sure, you still take the -2 Cha hit in your primary casting attribute, But since the spellthief is a half caster, he only needs a score of 14 to gain access to his full allotment of spells. If you choose wisely and stick mainly to useful spells like the repair for the warforged and buffs from the trans school, you should be in the green on that count. Any spell where saves are meaningless is a good place to start. Any of your stolen spells will be cast as if from the original caster, so your Charisma never comes into play for that class feature.

One of the problems I've come up against is feat selection. (both for the warlock and the spellthief) You have a lot of needs, access to unique feats and a very limited number that you can select. For both classes, at first level, you have to decide if you want the Mythral body feat. That +4 AC sure is nice, but look at what else you might miss out on.

Starting characters in either class at low levels might want to invest in one of the spell like ability feats from Complete Arcane. Gaining even limited access to a few handy spells can make the character a whole lot more viable, especially the warlock. Their usefulness plays out in later levels, but can be a lifesaver early on. Pointblank shot is always in the running. I also like Improved Damage Reduction for a forged warlock. you'd need to take it, or any other forged feat early on, because later bonus feats should rightly be spent on a succession of Extra Invocations. The spellthief isn't quite as restricted. You have the same number of feats to select, but no need to burn them on extra invocations.