Balancing Martials (a radical thought)

[jdizzlean]

There are literally tons of PrC's for caster's that progress spellcasting, but not a single PrC for a martial character that progresses their base class. So why not add in a line like "+1 to class that qualified you for this class" or something along those lines. Caster's gain all the PrC's abilities AND get to progress spellcasting at the same time, why not grant martials a continuing ability as well?


I think that would go a long way in helping to even out class disparity by making the martial character stronger over time as well.

and discuss.

[Red Fel]

What exactly would progress the base class?

For example, Fighter. Fighter has absolutely no class features, just bonus feats. There is no class feature to advance there.

Barbarian has class features - DR, Rage, Uncanny Dodge - but not all of them actually advance. For example, Fast Movement simply is, it doesn't grow. Rage scales up, in that the bonuses increase at 11 and 20, the fatigue goes away at 17, and the number of daily uses increases every four levels. But there are classes that advance Rage - for example, Bear Warrior not only changes your ability scores while Raging, it adds an extra Rage per day. Likewise, levels in the Eye of Gruumsh class stack with Barbarian levels to determine the number of Rages per day.

Rogue has a similar problem to Barbarian - Sneak Attack, most of its class features don't actually advance. That said, there are so many classes that advance Sneak Attack damage that it hardly seems worth it to list them all.

My point is: What do you mean by "progresses their base class?"

[Cosi]

I think you could probably get away with just making martial PrCs functionally Gestalt. You qualify for Eye of Gruumsh, and from that point on you get both Eye of Gruumsh abilities and whatever your base class was doing at every level. Probably with a one-at-a-time limitation to avoid people stacking eight PrCs at a time.

That said, I'm not really all that impressed by the scheme. You could just be an Eye of Gruumsh from 1st level and I wouldn't care. Most martial PrCs are just not all that good, just like most martial base classes. And the ones that are mostly build on martial's core competencies -- hurting people and breaking things. What martials need the most help with is the stuff that happens when they aren't fighting.

[jdizzlean]

+ spellcasting gives spell progression and slots

+ martial would simply progress class abilities, so in the case of fighter, yes that would be nothing but bonus feats. rogue would continue to stack SA and other abilities, Barb would get more and better uses of Rage, etc etc.


that progression of the base class, matching the progression of spellcasting is what I mean. You obviously aren't going to progress saves/BAB or anything else from the base class. But I'd agree that it would have to be restricted to a single class, or a single class per PrC as you're able to choose which spellcasting class you apply that bonus to in those events.

[Venger]

There are two classes that do this: legacy champion and uncanny trickster.

[Red Fel]

+ spellcasting gives spell progression and slots

+ martial would simply progress class abilities, so in the case of fighter, yes that would be nothing but bonus feats. rogue would continue to stack SA and other abilities, Barb would get more and better uses of Rage, etc etc.


that progression of the base class, matching the progression of spellcasting is what I mean. You obviously aren't going to progress saves/BAB or anything else from the base class. But I'd agree that it would have to be restricted to a single class, or a single class per PrC as you're able to choose which spellcasting class you apply that bonus to in those events.

But that's just it - +spellcasting really only advances that class feature, not the whole class. Admittedly, that class feature is the class feature, but that's just it. By way of comparison, a Druid that enters a PrC that advances divine spellcasting advances his spellcasting, but not Wild Shape. A Hellfire Warlock grants invocations known and increases Eldritch Blast damage, but does not add higher-level categories of invocations.

Mind you, I'm not saying it would be unbalancing to have a PrC that advance a martial class' everything. They still wouldn't catch up with spellcasters. What I'm saying, however, is that there are already classes that advance these features, inasmuch as they can be advanced.

Creating a class that advances a martial class entirely, while also adding additional features, feels less like a Prestige Class and more like a replacement. A class that gains bonus feats like a Fighter, but also has features, is strictly superior in every respect. A Monk with all Monk features, but also some other neat trick, is strictly superior in every respect. There becomes no reason to stay in the base class at all; you might as well just replace all subsequent levels with the PrC by default.

Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But at least in theory, and in most cases, a PrC consists of advancing one thing or adding another, in exchange for losing certain elements of the base class. For example, a Paladin advancing as a Fist of Raziel gives up on advancing Lay on Hands, Special Mount, and Turn Undead, in favor of gaining power-ups for Smite Evil. Most PrCs are a trade-off. Rarely, there's barely any trade-off (see e.g. Moonspeaker, which only loses you about 4 levels of Wild Shape); most of the time you lose out on something.

What you're describing doesn't appear to have any downside. As I've said, not a bad thing, but it does call for some explanation.

[Bavarian itP]

Swift Hunter etc. does something similar, if you think about it.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

9th-level spellcasting is as useful as an entire class worth of non-casting features, so the gestalt PrC method seems fair.

[AnimeTheCat]

Creating a class that advances a martial class entirely, while also adding additional features, feels less like a Prestige Class and more like a replacement. A class that gains bonus feats like a Fighter, but also has features, is strictly superior in every respect. A Monk with all Monk features, but also some other neat trick, is strictly superior in every respect. There becomes no reason to stay in the base class at all; you might as well just replace all subsequent levels with the PrC by default.


Practically every prestige class that a sorcerer or cleric takes does exactly that though. The only feature those classes get is spellcasting, a prestige class gives casting progression plus features. Making the base class distinctly better is nothing new. Its kind of the point of prestige classes isn't it?

[Goaty14]

Practically every prestige class that a sorcerer or cleric takes does exactly that though.

No. The sorcerer misses out on familiar progression, and the cleric misses out on the highed HD of undead he can turn.

As if those even matter, though :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh, and a Sorc/Cleric/MT still doesn't have any class features despite what you just said :smallyuk:

[AnimeTheCat]

No. The sorcerer misses out on familiar progression, and the cleric misses out on the highed HD of undead he can turn.

As if those even matter, though :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh, and a Sorc/Cleric/MT still doesn't have any class features despite what you just said :smallyuk:

A feat will fix that. Obtain familiar applies to any class levels that grant arcane spellcasting.

and I'm not sure what you mean... A cleric 3/sorcerer 3/mystic theurge 10 has all the class features of a 13th level cleric and a 13th level sorcerer. :smalltongue:

[SangoProduction]

A feat will fix that. Obtain familiar applies to any class levels that grant arcane spellcasting.

and I'm not sure what you mean... A cleric 3/sorcerer 3/mystic theurge 10 has all the class features of a 13th level cleric and a 13th level sorcerer. :smalltongue:

...That's...actually completely true. Now, it comes in at level 16, putting you 3 levels behind in either. But yeah. You simply have [Class]+ whenever you take a full casting PRC. Which I kinda appreciate PF fixing for the most part.

Then again, most PF PRCs are simply bad because they wanted you to single class and not multiclass. Really rather annoying actually. I only endure PF for the Spheres of Power.

[AnimeTheCat]

...That's...actually completely true. Now, it comes in at level 16, putting you 3 levels behind in either. But yeah. You simply have [Class]+ whenever you take a full casting PRC. Which I kinda appreciate PF fixing for the most part.

Then again, most PF PRCs are simply bad because they wanted you to single class and not multiclass. Really rather annoying actually. I only endure PF for the Spheres of Power.

So, I was wrong, you actually have to be cleric 3/sorcerer 4 to do it.

I don't mind not multiclassing personally. Then, I don't mind the 3.5 fighter.

[Cosi]

What you're describing doesn't appear to have any downside. As I've said, not a bad thing, but it does call for some explanation.

Mundanes are massively worse than casters. Anything that brings them to something approaching competence is going to mean absurdly massive buffs (more than even this provides). The solution isn't to not provide those buffs because they are absurdly massive, but to find some buffs you can give casters that don't increase their power ceiling much, and slightly over-buff mundanes so things balance out. So you give martials free ToB, extra actions, a ritual subsystem, and free PrCs, but you give casters full casting progression on all their PrCs, which is barely even a buff since the best ones have it anyway. Then everything is reasonably balanced without looking like blatant favoritism.

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm of the opinion that to balance martial characters you need to give them something that they can do aside from putting the pointy end in the enemy that ISN'T replicated by magic. Something that makes them unique.

Their primary schtick is so easily taken over by magic it's not even funny, and aside from a few niche cases most martial characters don't have anything beyond that schtick. Notable exceptions to this are the Rogue who has a buttload of skills and insane damage potential from sneak attack, ranger who can become relevant thanks to ACFs, and that's kind of it... Paladin is woefully worse than Cleric at everything, and Barbarians and Fighters are stuck in "poke the enemy" land. Monk is just... unfortunate...

What you would need to do to balance martials with Casters is to basically rework every class with actual class features that scale with the corresponding magic scaling, but are not also replicated by magic. How one would do this, I'm still thinking about. Magic replicates practically everything.

At that point though... you're basically rewriting the whole system and would probably be better off building something from the ground up with your particular vision of "Balance" baked in from the beginning.

[Cosi]

You don't need to give martials something magic can't replace, you just need to give them something that is not strictly worse than magic. At low levels, skills suffice pretty well for this. At 3rd level, knock is between half and a quarter of a Wizard's daily outlay of top level spells. Compared to that, investing a skill into a slightly worse but at will mechanism for opening locks is entirely balanced. Seriously, knock versus Open Lock is a perfect example of a balanced trade off at the level where you get knock. So if martials got things that were simply like magic, but with slightly different sets of costs, that could be totally balanced. Indeed, "similar effects with different costs" is what the balance between casters looks like right now.

Going back for example to the Eye of Gruumsh, getting an arcane eye with progressively better stealth and perception would be a reasonable trade off with the Wizard's ability to use scry.

[Red Fel]

I'm of the opinion that to balance martial characters you need to give them something that they can do aside from putting the pointy end in the enemy that ISN'T replicated by magic. Something that makes them unique.


You don't need to give martials something magic can't replace, you just need to give them something that is not strictly worse than magic.

Agree in part, disagree in part. You do need to give martials something other than combat ability. You don't need to give them something magic can't replace.

You just need to give them options.

If you're playing a caster, you're playing pretty much every character. You can be a Fighter. You can be a Rogue. You can be a Dragon. You can do whatever. If you're playing a martial, on the other hand, you're playing a martial. That's pretty much it.

You don't need to give martials something casters can't do. You don't need to give them all of the same options - that way lies 4e. All you need to do is let martials do more - as in, aside from combat or the occasional skill check - than they currently do.

That's it. That's the magic bullet. That's how you get your martials to a point that, when you're out of combat and this character is diplomancing and that one is spell researching and that one is talking to literal deities, the martial has something to do so that the player isn't sitting there boredly waiting. That's how you reach a point where, when this character can fly across the chasm and that one can teleport and that one can summon a unicorn, they aren't boredly waiting on the other side for your martial to make about a million climb checks while he shimmies across ledges in the wind and snow. Just let them do more.

That's all.

[PhantasyPen]

You just need to give them options.

If you're playing a caster, you're playing pretty much every character. You can be a Fighter. You can be a Rogue. You can be a Dragon. You can do whatever. If you're playing a martial, on the other hand, you're playing a martial. That's pretty much it.

You don't need to give martials something casters can't do. You don't need to give them all of the same options - that way lies 4e. All you need to do is let martials do more - as in, aside from combat or the occasional skill check - than they currently do.
Just let them do more.

That's all.

Might I ask what this mysterious "more" looks like in your mind? People keep saying things like this, but details always feel sparce.

[Cosi]

You don't need to give martials something casters can't do. You don't need to give them all of the same options - that way lies 4e. All you need to do is let martials do more - as in, aside from combat or the occasional skill check - than they currently do.

This is exactly backwards. If 4e is what you get by giving martials the same options as casters, where is the 4e Fighter's polymorph/planar binding/fabricate/wish/simulacrum/shadow conjuration/summon monster? Where is his Wild Shape or Familiar? 4e is what happens when you take away caster options until they have as few options as the martials. It's certainly possible that doing the opposite could also be bad, but 4e does not particular demonstrate that.


Might I ask what this mysterious "more" looks like in your mind? People keep saying things like this, but details always feel sparce.

In combat, martial classes get free gestalt with any ToB class (+ Full BAB and Adaptive Style for Swordsage) or Factotum (with fixed IP gain, +1 IP/level, no Font of Inspiration), and can take the Combat Feats from Races of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Warriors_with_Style#The_New_Combat_Ready_Feats) (possibly this also means Factotum needs full BAB). That's probably sufficient, maybe mix in some Path of War or new homebrew disciplines if you want.

Out of combat, martials get some combination of Infusions, free Weapons of Legacy (with penalties either removed wholesale or removed if you have proficiency), or minor spellcasting from e.g. Factotum. You could also do more homebrew work and write additional infusion-ish powersets, create a set of ritual magic rules, or add some more stuff to skills.

[martixy]

Agree in part, disagree in part. You do need to give martials something other than combat ability. You don't need to give them something magic can't replace.

You just need to give them options.

If you're playing a caster, you're playing pretty much every character. You can be a Fighter. You can be a Rogue. You can be a Dragon. You can do whatever. If you're playing a martial, on the other hand, you're playing a martial. That's pretty much it.

You don't need to give martials something casters can't do. You don't need to give them all of the same options - that way lies 4e. All you need to do is let martials do more - as in, aside from combat or the occasional skill check - than they currently do.

That's it. That's the magic bullet. That's how you get your martials to a point that, when you're out of combat and this character is diplomancing and that one is spell researching and that one is talking to literal deities, the martial has something to do so that the player isn't sitting there boredly waiting. That's how you reach a point where, when this character can fly across the chasm and that one can teleport and that one can summon a unicorn, they aren't boredly waiting on the other side for your martial to make about a million climb checks while he shimmies across ledges in the wind and snow. Just let them do more.

That's all.

I keep trying to repeat that to everyone that will listen.

No one does.

Also, a thing that casters don't have doesn't hurt. I gave them action points.

[Red Fel]

Might I ask what this mysterious "more" looks like in your mind? People keep saying things like this, but details always feel sparce.

Well...


Out of combat, martials get some combination of Infusions, free Weapons of Legacy (with penalties either removed wholesale or removed if you have proficiency), or minor spellcasting from e.g. Factotum. You could also do more homebrew work and write additional infusion-ish powersets, create a set of ritual magic rules, or add some more stuff to skills.

Not quite this, but similar. The idea is to give out of combat options.

Look at the Fighter. Tell me one thing that he can do, with his class features (not skill ranks, anyone can grab those) outside of combat.

Literally anything would be "more." Bonus languages would be more. So let's try a few things, just off the top of the horned dome, right now:
Fighters could get a class feature that enables them to identify magical weapons and armor. Makes sense, they'd know weapons and armor. They could get a class feature that gives them a bonus on diplomacy rolls involving NPCs of a martial bent (e.g. guards, soldiers, etc.) based on their common experiences and background. Setting-dependent, but you could set them up like the wulin, a parallel-but-recognized society of trained combatants who earn respect and recognition from one another for their feats.
Monks could get some kind of religious-related bonuses, be it divine magic, the ability to Commune, or similar; it makes sense, given their monastic background. (Hint: Monasteries aren't just where you go to learn to punch.) They could gain enhanced senses, maybe could leap up onto a treetop and see the countryside to scout around. They could get various esoteric knowledges based on their monastic training. And again, the wulin thing above.
Barbarians could get bonuses to carousing, drinking, being social. They could get reputational bonuses for being suitably scary or awesome. A Barbarian could actually be your cultural liaison - your party face - in the right setting.
Look, this is far from comprehensive, and mostly fluff. I'm not saying to give them fireballs or invisibility. But just the ability to hit something isn't enough. And I haven't even addressed in-combat options - like what to do if an enemy is flying, or invisible, or incorporeal, or teleporting. Point is, there could be more.


I keep trying to repeat that to everyone that will listen.

No one does.

Also, a thing that casters don't have doesn't hurt. I gave them action points.

Action Points are actually a pretty great idea. Admittedly, an out-of-game mechanical currency given to some players but not others can be a bit iffy, but I legitimately see martial PCs using them to do awesome stuff that martial PCs by all rights should be able to do.

[The Shadowmind]

Well...



Not quite this, but similar. The idea is to give out of combat options.

Look at the Fighter. Tell me one thing that he can do, with his class features (not skill ranks, anyone can grab those) outside of combat.

Literally anything would be "more." Bonus languages would be more. So let's try a few things, just off the top of the horned dome, right now:
Fighters could get a class feature that enables them to identify magical weapons and armor. Makes sense, they'd know weapons and armor. They could get a class feature that gives them a bonus on diplomacy rolls involving NPCs of a martial bent (e.g. guards, soldiers, etc.) based on their common experiences and background. Setting-dependent, but you could set them up like the wulin, a parallel-but-recognized society of trained combatants who earn respect and recognition from one another for their feats.
Monks could get some kind of religious-related bonuses, be it divine magic, the ability to Commune, or similar; it makes sense, given their monastic background. (Hint: Monasteries aren't just where you go to learn to punch.) They could gain enhanced senses, maybe could leap up onto a treetop and see the countryside to scout around. They could get various esoteric knowledges based on their monastic training. And again, the wulin thing above.
Barbarians could get bonuses to carousing, drinking, being social. They could get reputational bonuses for being suitably scary or awesome. A Barbarian could actually be your cultural liaison - your party face - in the right setting.
Look, this is far from comprehensive, and mostly fluff. I'm not saying to give them fireballs or invisibility. But just the ability to hit something isn't enough. And I haven't even addressed in-combat options - like what to do if an enemy is flying, or invisible, or incorporeal, or teleporting. Point is, there could be more.



Action Points are actually a pretty great idea. Admittedly, an out-of-game mechanical currency given to some players but not others can be a bit iffy, but I legitimately see martial PCs using them to do awesome stuff that martial PCs by all rights should be able to do.

For Fighters give them ability to pick between several Archetypes:
Inspiring Captain: Gain Factotum class features, but not the spells.
Tinker: Gain Artificer class features, but not the infusions.
Commander: Get a mix of Marshall and Dragon shaman abilities.

[Cosi]

Inspiring Captain: Gain Factotum class features, but not the spells.

Without getting the spells, all Factotum gives you is some rules disputes and a modestly more effective attack routine. Also I guess skills, but skills are not actually good.


Tinker: Gain Artificer class features, but not the infusions.

No, give them the infusions but not the class features. The stupidest part of the Artificer is how it encourages you to dumpster dive for spells that are low level on weird lists and try to add stupid requirements to items to break WBL. This is giving the Fighter that, but no ability to solve a problem he has today. That is dumb and bad.


Commander: Get a mix of Marshall and Dragon shaman abilities.

What non-combat class features to Marshalls or Dragon Shaman have?

[Red Fel]

What non-combat class features to Marshalls or Dragon Shaman have?

Marshals have a land speed bonus aura, but fair point otherwise.

Dragon Shaman, on the other hand, can get a lot. Flight is a big one, although it's late in the game. Fast Healing aura is nice, as are Water Breathing and Spider Climb. Lay on Hands and a 1/week Commune are also pretty decent.

But yeah. Point is, even Dragon Shaman can do stuff, and it's basically just a class for gaining a breath weapon and some random abilities. Which is still more than the Fighter gets.

[ericgrau]

Creating a class that advances a martial class entirely, while also adding additional features, feels less like a Prestige Class and more like a replacement. A class that gains bonus feats like a Fighter, but also has features, is strictly superior in every respect. A Monk with all Monk features, but also some other neat trick, is strictly superior in every respect. There becomes no reason to stay in the base class at all; you might as well just replace all subsequent levels with the PrC by default.
Pre-reqs and/or dead levels could keep it from becoming strictly superior, like many other PrCS. Trading away full BAB for medium BAB + features could also be a fairly straightforward way to do it. hough for that to work you need to somehow make full BAB or nearly full BAB a pre-req somehow. "BAB at most 1 less than hit dice"?

OTOH many other PrCs are still strictly superior than the base classes because the cost is so much less than the benefits. PrCs in general tend to say "Screw you base classes, we're better". But yeah I can see that you'd want to avoid this and the above is one way the better PrCs do it.

[One Step Two]

Look at the Fighter. Tell me one thing that he can do, with his class features (not skill ranks, anyone can grab those) outside of combat.


I want to elaborate on this point a little more since it's so valid! Casters have things they can do that are non-combat and non-skill orientated (though certainly skill dependent), by virtue of having spellcasting as a class ability, even without having to cast spells, thanks to a whole subsystem (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm) dedicated to their defining class feature.
Any spellcaster can sit in their tower/cave/church and do spell research. Wizards can pop over to visit their friends and trade spells with each other. Heck, even sorcerers and bards can attempt to research and learn new and unusual spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaSorcerersorBardsRe pertoire), and they're spontaneous casters!

And like Red Fel's example, here's some quick throw in ideas for buffs to those classes that are simple additions that don't need whole systems dedicated to them outside of a little bookkeeping:


Barbarian - Tales of Valor: Barbarians apply a bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate and Perform checks equal to the highest CR creature they've defeated in single combat, the bonus is halved (rounding down) if defeated as a member of a party.
Fighter - Veterans respect: On meeting a new NPC with Medium or Full BAB, if the fighter's level is equal to or greater than the NPC, their attitude is automatically one step closer towards helpful.
Monk - Rights of Pilgrimage: Monks and his companions can be permitted free entry into any religious, or monastic order's publicly known sanctuaries, libraries, or temples for rest and research purposes. Even those that are diametrically opposed to their ethos are willing to host the monk and his party for a short time, as long as they are not considered hostile by the Religious order they are petitioning.


Perhaps to some people these ideas can be game breaking, but it gives them soft power in the right circumstances. If the party has defeated an Adult Dragon, the Barbarian can use that to threaten those who think too much of themselves, or as a means to gain respect from the other lawless tribes as well as, or even better than, a bard.
The Fighter can de-escalate a group of bandits trying to way-lay them on his presence alone, or give him and his party a chance to explain themselves to the town guards instead of just being hauled off to prison.
And as Red Fel said, Monks are not just brawlers, they are sages and ascetics, who must search and learn, finding new wisdom among others of like minds, or testing them against those of different philosophies.

[JoshuaZ]

Barbarian - Tales of Valor: Barbarians apply a bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate and Perform checks equal to the highest CR creature they've defeated in single combat, the bonus is halved (rounding down) if defeated as a member of a party.
Fighter - Veterans respect: On meeting a new NPC with Medium or Full BAB, if the fighter's level is equal to or greater than the NPC, their attitude is automatically one step closer towards helpful.
Monk - Rights of Pilgrimage: Monks and his companions can be permitted free entry into any religious, or monastic order's publicly known sanctuaries, libraries, or temples for rest and research purposes. Even those that are diametrically opposed to their ethos are willing to host the monk and his party for a short time, as long as they are not considered hostile by the Religious order they are petitioning.


This is an amazing idea. I like the first two a lot. I'm not sure how much I feel about the third one as a class feature because it feels more like worldbuilding (since it a statement about how monasteries behave). But maybe something that just gives a monk bonuses to knowledge checks and/or lets them make them untrained?

[LudicSavant]

To balance martials, you have to overcome several hurdles that 3.5e has... well... fairly consistently failed to overcome. Here are a few of those key problems:

1) Repeated investments are required for baseline relevance: This is perhaps best explained with an example. When a Fighter gains level 2, they might take a feat that makes them better at using a glaive (like "Weapon Focus"). Now they can use a glaive in a level-appropriate fashion! When they gain level 4, they take another feat which makes them better at using a glaive. Now they can use a glaive in a level-appropriate fashion! You know... just like 2 levels ago. What actually changed is the difference between their ability to use a glaive and do anything else grew. The level 4 fighter is more screwed (relative to challenges appropriate for their level) than a level 2 fighter if he decides to use a longsword or a longbow instead of a glaive on his turn. Counterintuitively, they got *less versatile* on leveling up.

It's not just their feats that do this, it's other aspects too. For example, a level 1 fighter could pick up any weapon off the street and it will be alright. If they get their weapon disarmed or sundered, it's not that big a deal. They could potentially even do something like wield one weapon for one encounter, then switch to another weapon for another encounter for which that weapon might be more advantageous. But as they level up, they have sunk a major proportion of their character's wealth into a single, specific weapon, and become utterly crippled if they switch weapons for any reason.

By contrast, one will notice that spellcasters largely avoid this problem. When you level up and learn Stinking Cloud, you can immediately cast it in a level-appropriate way, even though you have at no previous point made any investments into "lesser stinking cloud" or whatever. Likewise, their itemization tends to take the form of things like scrolls, staves, and wands... things which don't so much raise the baseline for relevance (like a +5 sword does) so much as just provide you with extra level-appropriate options on hand.

2) New options cannot be acquired without leveling up: Again this is perhaps best illustrated by an example. Let's say that you're going on an adventure to Tiger Mountain and you realize you'll probably want to be able to communicate with the Tiger People, so you want to go ahead and learn their language. If you're a Wizard, you can just go and find a scroll of Comprehend Languages and scribe it. If you're a Cleric, you just wake up the next morning and prepare a different set of class features. If you're a Fighter, you... go on the adventure to Tiger Mountain, level up, and take a rank in Speak Language after the adventure is already over, when it doesn't matter anymore because you're not going back to Tiger Mountain again for the next adventure.

See the difference? Basically, the top tier classes can redefine who they are and what they can do on a schedule other than the XP track. Often these redefinitions are even more significant than what a Fighter or Barbarian or whatever can do to customize themselves even when they do level up.

3) There are three main pillars of the game and you need to be able to play all of them. Basically, you need to be doing something meaningful not only in combat, but in Exploration and Social pillars of the game. As Red Fel mentioned, Fighters and similar characters... don't, really.

4) Counterplay! So, when I say counterplay, I'm talking about it in this sense of the word (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g). And... well... magic design in D&D, be it for Team Adventurer or Team Monster, tends to not consider counterplay very much. Spells don't telegraph and you can't really tell what sort of caster you might be up against just by looking at them in the same way that you can look at a fighter and think "hey, he's using a glaive, I bet he's a sort of area controller type" or "hey, he's got a sword and board and plate, I bet he has high AC," let alone figure out a consistent plan for countering their specific brand of casting based on that. And a lot of spells just plain don't interact with the mundane at all. Wall of Force? Just can't be broken. Rays? They just go right through shields and armor for some reason, and you can just forget about hitting back magical projectiles with your shield like Link. And definitely don't even think of things like shielding teammates from area of effect using your shield, no matter how many depictions of it there are in D&D art. :smallannoyed:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75436.jpg
This is supposed to be a picture of what the feat "divine resistance" does.
The feat does not in fact allow you to do this. At all.

[One Step Two]

This is an amazing idea. I like the first two a lot. I'm not sure how much I feel about the third one as a class feature because it feels more like worldbuilding (since it a statement about how monasteries behave). But maybe something that just gives a monk bonuses to knowledge checks and/or lets them make them untrained?

I'm glad you like how they feel, they're just general things that are to help those classes interact with the world beyond hitting things. Feel free to take inspiration from them however you like, here's some "design notes" on each, and how you can take this little idea of mine and adapt it to how you think works best:

Tales of Valor is a direct number crunch, Encounter CR becomes a direct skill bonus on the simple end.
Veterans respect is a little more esoteric, but there's an appreciable scale to how it works (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) in the diplomacy skill description, it's basically an automatic 20 on your diplomacy roll for first impression only with a certain subset of creatures. Not hard crunch in how it's effects actually work, but there's scale and guidelines
Rights of Pilgrimage is straight out fluff, no numbers, no given impact to to any roll or appreciable scale to it, it's pure worldbuilding, and that's the point. Honestly, it's a class feature that shouldn't need to be spelled out, much like any Druid can walk into the woods and find the nearest circle for a night's stay or aid, but in the act of making it explicit, it means characters are open to the idea of using it.

You can even apply this sort of scale to all three classes, for example:

Barbarian

Mechanical bonus: Tales of Valor as written above.
Esoteric bonus: Call the horde - With a DC 25 Survival check to identify the correct practices of a local Friendly barbarian tribe, and the offering of a carcass of an appropriate animal as offering, he can enlist the aid of the tribe to the effect of gaining the Leadership feat for 1 day. All followers and Cohorts are barbarians (or possibly an Adept/Druid Shaman)
Fluff Bonus: Gift of the hearth - Barbarians are known to be wild, but they have their own rules that they abide by. A barbarian in a party can guide their allies if approaching an unfamiliar barbarian tribe, allowing them to spend a night by the fireside and be assured of safety until they depart from each others company. Any future relations are dependent on the party and how they act towards their hosts.
These were something I just thought up off the top of my head as examples, take hold of the concept with both hands, if you're a DM, throw them at your players, see how they like it. I doubt that they will hate having more options available to them.

[Lans]

Well...



Not quite this, but similar. The idea is to give out of combat options.

Look at the Fighter. Tell me one thing that he can do, with his class features (not skill ranks, anyone can grab those) outside of combat.

With specific use of martial study/stance he can walk on water, fly, turn invisible, heal people and or teleport!



In the Rokugan books they introduced Katas where a character could spend exp to learn a special ability. I dont remember how good they were