Wisdom synergy, mechanics conflict - AL

[ZorroGames]

By the title I mean a Life Cleric with Chainmail and Shield Has to stop using metal armor and shield to multi-class to Druid, right?

My Life Cleric 1 or 2 levels dip to MC Druid “X” cannot carry over his armor even though proficient and already using metal armor (I can hand wave using a Wood Shield from level 1 for that matter.)

Any other class skills get stripped of equipment in 5e AL when a character multiclasses? I am not carping about the AL ruling but wonder any other classes have like clashes. Fighter 1 keeps the armor if they MC to Wizard or Sorcerer for example.

Just curious if I missed any such cases.

[PeteNutButter]

Druid and only druid has the stupid armor requirement, but several monk features don't work while wearing armor. Rage doesn't do much in heavy armor. I think Bladesingers have to be wearing light armor (or no armor) to blade sing.

Druid is unique in that it doesn't tell you what features you lose if you don metal armor. It just says you don't wear it.

[Theodoxus]

Re: Druids, I don't recall a specific ruling for AL that states you lose anything. I'd be happy to be pointed to a post or pdf that talks about it.

I find it funny that, if they have proficiency, rogues can use all their abilities in heavy armor with no restrictions (other than disad on stealth checks). But barbarians and monks get boned out of their class defining features.

Unlike previous editions, there isn't a spell failure chance in armor - it's a toggle; if you're proficient, you can cast in armor. If you're not, you can't. One reason Fighter 1 (or 2) / Wizard X is so popular, as it lets you eventually cast fireballs while running around with 21 AC (plate, shield, defense fighting style) before getting anything enchanted.

[Unoriginal]

It's a religious taboo, not something that affect your powers.

[ZorroGames]

Re: Druids, I don't recall a specific ruling for AL that states you lose anything. I'd be happy to be pointed to a post or pdf that talks about it.

I find it funny that, if they have proficiency, rogues can use all their abilities in heavy armor with no restrictions (other than disad on stealth checks). But barbarians and monks get boned out of their class defining features.

Unlike previous editions, there isn't a spell failure chance in armor - it's a toggle; if you're proficient, you can cast in armor. If you're not, you can't. One reason Fighter 1 (or 2) / Wizard X is so popular, as it lets you eventually cast fireballs while running around with 21 AC (plate, shield, defense fighting style) before getting anything enchanted.

AC 22 with a Forge Cleric friend. 🤣

[ZorroGames]

Re: Druids, I don't recall a specific ruling for AL that states you lose anything. I'd be happy to be pointed to a post or pdf that talks about it.

I find it funny that, if they have proficiency, rogues can use all their abilities in heavy armor with no restrictions (other than disad on stealth checks). But barbarians and monks get boned out of their class defining features.

Unlike previous editions, there isn't a spell failure chance in armor - it's a toggle; if you're proficient, you can cast in armor. If you're not, you can't. One reason Fighter 1 (or 2) / Wizard X is so popular, as it lets you eventually cast fireballs while running around with 21 AC (plate, shield, defense fighting style) before getting anything enchanted.

It just seemed oddly unique.

I can have a Life Cleric in Chainmail one game, make second level, MC to Druid and the MC build of Cleric 1 and Druid 1 is illegal in most AL DMs minds for the next game. Though actually it just seems to say you won't, not you can’t.

[Ganymede]

Considering the PHB says that druids won't wear metallic armor, when would this issue of "what happens if a druid wears metallic armor?" even come up?

Is the druid forced into a suit of scalemail by the campaign's Big Bad? Does some evil hag Dominate the druid and compel him or her to don a breastplate?

[ZorroGames]

Considering the PHB says that druids won't wear metallic armor, when would this issue of "what happens if a druid wears metallic armor?" even come up?

Is the druid forced into a suit of scalemail by the campaign's Big Bad? Does some evil hag Dominate the druid and compel him or her to don a breastplate?

The Life Cleric portion of the MC wore it on the way to 2nd level. It just seems odd that now he would abhor the armor.

[Ganymede]

The Life Cleric portion of the MC wore it on the way to 2nd level. It just seems odd that now he would abhor the armor.

It sounds like the issue isn't the restriction itself, but your character's roleplay justification for the restriction.

Why not brainstorm a reason why your PC has set aside his steel armor? We know he doesn't want to wear the armor anymore, you just need to come up with a justification for it.

[DivisibleByZero]

The Life Cleric portion of the MC wore it on the way to 2nd level. It just seems odd that now he would abhor the armor.

He didn't follow the druidic ways and beliefs before.
Now he does.

Think of it like someone converting to Islam. They may have eaten pigs before, but now they refuse to.

[ZorroGames]

He didn't follow the druidic ways and beliefs before.
Now he does.

Think of it like someone converting to Hinduism. They may have eaten beef before, but now they refuse to.


It sounds like the issue isn't the restriction itself, but your character's roleplay justification for the restriction.

Why not brainstorm a reason why your PC has set aside his steel armor? We know he doesn't want to wear the armor anymore, you just need to come up with a justification for it.

Okay... The Life Cleric had an offstage epiphany that animals are “lives” like mortals too? To fulfill the he application process to care for “Life Plus” he needs to sell the armor?

Weird but doable.

[DivisibleByZero]

Okay... The Life Cleric had an offstage epiphany that animals are “lives” like mortals too? To fulfill the he application process to care for “Life Plus” he needs to sell the armor?

Weird but doable.

He doesn't necessarily need to sell it. He just refuses to wear it any longer. Which probably means that he would sell it then, but yeah.

It would actually be the opposite though. He would now refuse to wear anything *but* plants and animals.

[JellyPooga]

He didn't follow the druidic ways and beliefs before.
Now he does.

Think of it like someone converting to Islam. They may have eaten pigs before, but now they refuse to.

While a character could develop that way, I prefer to think of it more like a believer taking their religion more seriously or even fanatically; sticking to some of the more esoteric or fringe strictures to acquire a deeper understanding of the mysteries of their faith, or perhaps joining a cult within his religion (for a Cleric, a Fighter might join a cult within his mercenaries guild, or a Paladin or Monk within their Order/Monastery). The cost of multiclassing isn't that you must abandon your previous Class (which for a Cleric includes their faith), but rather adapt the concept to gain the benefits of your new Class. It shouldn't be "Once I was a Catholic, now I'm a Hindu", it's more like "I was just a Christian, but now I'm a Mormon".

[DivisibleByZero]

It shouldn't be "Once I was a Catholic, now I'm a Hindu", it's more like "I was just a Christian, but now I'm a Mormon".

Except that druidism (aka New Age, aka Wiccan) and poly or monotheism are two different types of religions, which makes my initial comparison more appropriate. So there's that.
You can believe in both all you like, but if you don't practice then you aren't a Muslim. And once you start practicing, you haven't adapted, you have converted.

A subclass is an adaption. A new class is a conversion.

[Theodoxus]

Eh, i think it'd be odd to be a cleric, adventure, kill some goblins, rescue a damsel, get a reward and the next day think "hmm, I think I'll take up druidism. Well, guess I have to take off this suit of metal I've spent my youth learning how to walk around in."

Now, this being AL, I've seen two types of DMs:

The first, who gathers everyone's character sheets, copies down the important bits (HP, Passive, AC) and might do quick math for attributes if it's 1st level, but doesn't scrutinize the bits and pieces.

Vs.

The second, who doesn't care what people play, understands it's all on the honor system anyway, and as long as your character fits in somewhere in the current tier he's running (or sometimes one level above or below) and their last session on their log wasn't in a "locked" game (Cos, ToA, etc), you're golden.

Neither type would look at a Cleric/Druid MC and go "So, wearing metal armor, huh? Can you justify that?"

But I will say, I've run into PLAYERS who scrutinize the ever living crap out of your character. Heck, I'm one who will straight up stop a dude who thinks his ranger somehow has some magic ability to not be ambushed, ever, in his favored terrain. I've had to literally convince a table that yes, at 1st level, a ranger, fighter, rogue, whatever, does in fact get to use both their proficiency and attribute bonus to their attack roll with an offhand weapon... Or that Initiative checks are Dex checks and yes, halflings get to reroll a 1 on those too...

I could totally see a player glancing at your sheet, seeing an 18 AC on your "druid" and going WTF, how? And then you have to explain to the DM why, and see if the DM cares - and that's a damn coin toss as far as I've seen...

If it's a regular DM and you're going to be playing at the table for a whole campaign, just be upfront on their ruling - point to this discussion if it helps... But if you're running multiple campaigns with the same character on different nights and different DMs... well, you'll run into Pex's primary gripe about 5e in general - rulings, not rules and different DMs seeing the same scenario and ruling it completely differently.

Only you know the answer to this conundrum.

[Naanomi]

Just like a character who multiclasses into a Paladin suddenly has an oath to follow (well... in a few levels); some classes come with more ‘baked in’ fluff than others... Druids are near the top of the list.

Do note there are a few non-metal pieces of armor in the various AL modules (Stone breastplates, dragonscale Armor)

[ZorroGames]

Just like a character who multiclasses into a Paladin suddenly has an oath to follow (well... in a few levels); some classes come with more ‘baked in’ fluff than others... Druids are near the top of the list.

Do note there are a few non-metal pieces of armor in the various AL modules (Stone breastplates, dragonscale Armor)

Magic is like chicken teeth in my experience. Except for the “temporary” “just as an experiment” GWF Earth Genasi character who has been a magic item magnet... Four, four, count them! Unique +1, +2 Longsword, Mariners Plate, +1 Battle Axe, and, just because, +1 Chainmail.

🧐

Actually not that rare 🙄 or my six other active characters would not have 1 common (damn Wand of Smiles - only my fault,) and 5 uncommon (4 weapons and a cloak,) plus an Adamantine Chainmail. Low is 0 items (Ranger) and high is 2 with one character including the Wand; Adamantine and cloak for one and the other Short Sword and Wand. 😇

Still I can poke our AL organizer and ask about scenarios that might have such - probably higher Tiers?

[Naanomi]

Princes of the Apicolypse has the stone breastplates.

Other adventures have...
-half plate of poison resist,
-crystal breastplate
-half plate of bone,
-full plate scorpion armor
-red and white dragon scale armor

...That are Druid friendly (don’t know specific adventures)

[ZorroGames]

Princes of the Apicolypse has the stone breastplates.

Other adventures have...
-half plate of poison resist,
-crystal breastplate
-half plate of bone,
-full plate scorpion armor
-red and white dragon scale armor

...That are Druid friendly (don’t know specific adventures)

The list has struck a greedy nerve in my dwarf soul...

Seriously, thanks.

[Malifice]

By the title I mean a Life Cleric with Chainmail and Shield Has to stop using metal armor and shield to multi-class to Druid, right?

My Life Cleric 1 or 2 levels dip to MC Druid “X” cannot carry over his armor even though proficient and already using metal armor (I can hand wave using a Wood Shield from level 1 for that matter.)

Any other class skills get stripped of equipment in 5e AL when a character multiclasses? I am not carping about the AL ruling but wonder any other classes have like clashes. Fighter 1 keeps the armor if they MC to Wizard or Sorcerer for example.

Just curious if I missed any such cases.

You retain proficiency; you just cant use metal armor anymore.

Dragon scale armor works. Depending on your DM (he might have armor made from bone or chitin etc) so will other types of heavy armor.

[Tetrasodium]

it's a sacred cow that they forgot to murder with all the other ones they finally killed in 5e. In the past, the limitation was because druids were zomg powerful on a completely different level than most other classes, but now they are on a similar power scale & it's no longer needed. Nothing happens by RAW.

[Malifice]

it's a sacred cow that they forgot to murder with all the other ones they finally killed in 5e. In the past, the limitation was because druids were zomg powerful on a completely different level than most other classes, but now they are on a similar power scale & it's no longer needed. Nothing happens by RAW.

Were they that powerful in AD&D?

Pretty sure they had the same restrictions then. Plus weapon restrictions.

BECMI limited them to leather armour as well from memory, even if they were a N Cleric in full plate before hand (they worked a bit different in BECMI; you only became a druid after being a cleric for a bit and being N aligned, but a fair few DMs let N clerics be druids from 1st).

[Tetrasodium]

Were they that powerful in AD&D?

Pretty sure they had the same restrictions then. Plus weapon restrictions.

BECMI limited them to leather armour as well from memory.

That's what I was saying. When they slaughtered absolute morality, strict paladin codes, etc they forgot druid metal armor.

I'm AD&D they had a crazy mechanic where they needed to track down & defeat the druid of their land before they could progress to the next level (whom they were fighting was). In 3.5, they were the D in CoDzilla... Cleric or Druid zilla.

[DivisibleByZero]

Were they that powerful in AD&D?

Pretty sure they had the same restrictions then. Plus weapon restrictions.

BECMI limited them to leather armour as well from memory, even if they were a N Cleric in full plate before hand (they worked a bit different in BECMI; you only became a druid after being a cleric for a bit and being N aligned, but a fair few DMs let N clerics be druids from 1st).

No, they weren't.
AD&D limited them to leather and hide as well.
He just likes to ramble on about sacred cows because he doesn't like it, even though the fluff is 100% appropriate and always has been.
It has to do with fluff, not power levels.
That same fluff is the reason they have the weapon proficiencies that they do. All natural weapons and a few farming implements.

[Malifice]

That's what I was saying. When they slaughtered absolute morality, strict paladin codes, etc they forgot druid metal armor.

They did nothing of the sort. Paladins still have codes, still get punished for breaking them (and can fall) and morality is still objective (if the DM wants it to be). The rules don't make alignment subjective or objective; that's really a DMs call.


I'm AD&D they had a crazy mechanic where they needed to track down & defeat the druid of their land before they could progress to the next level (whom they were fighting was).

Monks and maybe Assassins had to do similar from memory.

I don't mind that kind of stuff as a general rule. Adding a RP requirement to mechanical level advancement (you must first train with a master/ defeat your master in combat to advance).


In 3.5, they were the D in CoDzilla... Cleric or Druid zilla.

Yes I am well aware.

I've loathed Druids for some time now (3rd onwards). In 3E when you rounded a corner and saw a flying velociraptor wearing a ton of magic items, casting spells and adopting a martial arts stance wearing a Monk outfit, you knew it was a Druid.

In 5E its generally a flying spell casting Mastodon instead. Often also smiting from paladin or also adopting a martial arts stance from monk.

Now while this is insanely hilarious to picture, it just doesn't scream 'Druid' to me.

Would much prefer Wildshape was simply 'Power of nature' instead where you take on an aspect of the wild (and get a buff, like growing wings, or antlers, or toughening your skin like bark, or water breathing or similar).

[Tetrasodium]

They did nothing of the sort. Paladins still have codes, still get punished for breaking them (and can fall) and morality is still objective (if the DM wants it to be). The rules don't make alignment subjective or objective; that's really a DMs call.



Monks and maybe Assassins had to do similar from memory.

I don't mind that kind of stuff as a general rule. Adding a RP requirement to mechanical level advancement (you must first train with a master/ defeat your master in combat to advance).



Yes I am well aware.

I've loathed Druids for some time now (3rd onwards). In 3E when you rounded a corner and saw a flying velociraptor wearing a ton of magic items, casting spells and adopting a martial arts stance wearing a Monk outfit, you knew it was a Druid.

In 5E its generally a flying spell casting Mastodon instead. Often also smiting from paladin or also adopting a martial arts stance from monk.

Now while this is insanely hilarious to picture, it just doesn't scream 'Druid' to me.

Would much prefer Wildshape was simply 'Power of nature' instead where you take on an aspect of the wild (and get a buff, like growing wings, or antlers, or toughening your skin like bark, or water breathing or similar).

I said "strict oaths", are you seriously suggesting that the 5e make up your own oath is anywhere near as strict as 3.5's?...

[Malifice]

I said "strict oaths", are you seriously suggesting that the 5e make up your own oath is anywhere near as strict as 3.5's?...

Umm; where is the rule in 5E that says you can make up your own oath?

Each Paladin has its own oath, with some reasonably specific wording involved.

I mean, if your Devotion Paladin suddenly flees a combat abandoning those in his care, fails to accept the surrender of an honourable (if evil) enemy, stabs a sleeping child in the heart, or even simply lies or cheats, he breaks his oath.

[Unoriginal]

Tbf, minor transgressions can easily be attoned. Also it'd take a particularly dumb Paladin to consider doing things like lying to the BBEG about where the macguffing of world domination is or to trick them into an ambush to be a grave offense against their Oath (if the choice is between abandonning your friends and duties or tell a fib to an evil person, the Paladin of Devition would rarely consider it a dilemma, they'd just tell the fib, to the great sadness of "must make Paladin fall" DMs of the past).


Of course none of the Oaths (aside from Oathbreaker, which is the anti-oath, and maybe a particularly dishonorable brand of Conquest) support doing thing like robbing for no reason except greed the castle of a friendly Cloud Giant who's currently helping the group while he's catatonic, then murdering him.

[ZorroGames]

it's a sacred cow that they forgot to murder with all the other ones they finally killed in 5e. In the past, the limitation was because druids were zomg powerful on a completely different level than most other classes, but now they are on a similar power scale & it's no longer needed. Nothing happens by RAW.


No, they weren't.
AD&D limited them to leather and hide as well.
He just likes to ramble on about sacred cows because he doesn't like it, even though the fluff is 100% appropriate and always has been.
It has to do with fluff, not power levels.
That same fluff is the reason they have the weapon proficiencies that they do. All natural weapons and a few farming implements.


I said "strict oaths", are you seriously suggesting that the 5e make up your own oath is anywhere near as strict as 3.5's?...

Tetrasodium, I have no problem with the rule. It has guided Druids since shortly after the first three booklets (when they started as PC structured NPCs) with a particular style of play. I was more interested in other such type limits.

Will my Cleric/Druid ever be a favorite? Perhaps but this metal wearing Mountain Dwarf player doubts it but we will see. I never thought expected my Earth Genasi to last this long but he is my most xp rich character currently.

And Oaths were far more designed as traps (Gygax influence) originally IMNSHO than character flavoring. Oaths in 5e bite you if you are stupid or your DM is an ass.

[Tetrasodium]

Umm; where is the rule in 5E that says you can make up your own oath?

Each Paladin has its own oath, with some reasonably specific wording involved.

I mean, if your Devotion Paladin suddenly flees a combat abandoning those in his care, fails to accept the surrender of an honourable (if evil) enemy, stabs a sleeping child in the heart, or even simply lies or cheats, he breaks his oath.

3.5 oath's code of conduct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm)


Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Factor in the fact that good & evil in 3,5 was under absolute morality. I'm AFB, but this (https://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2015/08/23/alignments-dd-3-5th-edition/) cotes page numbers & looks to be quoting large sections of the 3.5 alignment stuff
Meanwhile in 5e


[list]
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. D on’tlie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom .
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care and obey those who have just authority over you.

The tenets of the Oath of the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.
Kindle the Light. Through your acts of mercy, kindness, and forgiveness, kindle the light of hope in the world, beating back despair.
Shelter the Light. Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. W here life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.
Preserve Your Own Light. Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.
Be the Light. Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light o f your joy and courage shine forth in all your deeds.

The tenets of the Oath of Vengeance vary by paladin, but all the tenets revolve around punishing wrongdoers by any means necessary. Paladins w ho uphold these tenets are willing to sacrifice even their own righteousness to mete out justice upon those who do evil, so the paladins are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment. The core principles of the tenets are brutally simple.
Fight the Greater Evil. Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or com bating a lesser evil. I choose the greater evil.
No Mercy for the Wicked. Ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not.
By Any Means Necessary. My qualms can’t get in the way of exterminating my foes.
Restitution. If my foes wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those harmed by their misdeeds.


even the parts that might look strict are anything but thanks to the fact that absolute morality is no longer a thing(good riddance to it).

I'm honestly at a loss to see how you could be familiar with both 3.5 & 5e yet still consider the 5e oath of conduct to be anything but nowhere near as strict as 3.5's. Maybe you houserule the 5e alignment to bake absolute morality back in, but that's hardly relevant.

The point is that the no metal armor druid thing was one of the may sacred cows of the past yet virtually the only one to remain in 5e without being at least substantially weakened to the point of being in the ICU with the ventilator turned off. If anything, removal of the ironwood spell makes the 5e metal armor even more bizarre.

[ZorroGames]

Well we have wandered far afield from my Original question and back to a certain persons pissing match postings.

Thank you I have my answers.