Doctor Who: Where do I start, what do I watch, what can I skip

[Obscuraphile]

So, I've been culturally aware of the Doctor for a long time but never really got into it. I noticed that the complete run of the new show (2005) is included with Amazon Prime Video. So if I hop on with that what am I missing? Should I go back and pick up previous seasons? Just certain episodes? Are there any I should skip in the new run? Are there accompanying movies/TV events that I should be aware of.

Knowing myself, if I watch the new show I will be liberally digging through any Doctor Who wikis that are out there to satisfy questions I have as they arise rather than allowing the show to get around to answering them, are there any other good resources for this sort of thing?

[Kato]

Uhm... That's a lot of questions? With a lot of complicated answers?

I'll try to answer a few.
1) yes, you can start with the reboot. Many people did, some decided to go back and watch some (me) / lots of the old show. I'll assume you're grown up enough to make that decision for yourself.
2) I don't know what Amazon includes. There are a few shorts put out by BBC, likely not included but those are not essential. After season... Six (?) there's an anniversary movie which is slightly important but can be skipped if it's not included.
3) I cannot possibly tell you what to skip. Once in a while there will be a not so good episode, as with any show. But that's personal preference. I'd recommend watching everything, unless you decide you don't like an episode, then.. Well, skip it.

4) there's the tardis wiki. It might know more about the show than it's creators.

[Pex]

Starting with Eccelston is fine. As the episodes happen you'll miss the fanservice nostalgia in a visual or piece of dialogue of Classic Who, but they on purpose made NuWho its own thing in terms of storylines.

If you can see Classic Who concurrently go for it. The Hartnell and Troughton years have a few missing episodes due to no longer having the tapes, but it's not intrusive.

Edit: If you do start from the beginning, though, it will be a long while before you reach the Sylvester McCoy episode Paradise Towers and meet the brave, heroic, awesome Pex, but it's worth the wait. :smallbiggrin:

[Androgeus]

I noticed that the complete run of the new show (2005) is included with Amazon Prime Video. So if I hop on with that what am I missing? Should I go back and pick up previous seasons? Just certain episodes? Are there any I should skip in the new run? Are there accompanying movies/TV events that I should be aware of.

Pretty much everything from the new show is on Amazon Prime. However Amazon gets very confused by the number of episode that aren't really a part of defined series. Make sure you follow an episode list (like Wikipedia's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_episodes_(2005%E2%80%93present) #Series_1_(2005))) rather than just autoplaying the next episode.


Edit: If you do start from the beginning, though, it will be a long while before you reach the Sylvester McCoy episode Paradise Towers and meet the brave, heroic, awesome Pex, but it's worth the wait. :smallbiggrin:

Have I ever told you I have a hoody that reads 'Pex Lives' on the back?


Edit: While I do agree that TARDIS wiki is very decent, just beware that Doctor Who has a very unique stance on canon (there isn't one). So the TARDISwiki is full to the brim with non-tv sources.

[Calemyr]

Yeah, it's probably best to Eccelston. The first season of the revived series is written on the assumption that many have never seen Doctor Who before. Over the course of the show, ties to the old content will crop up - old monsters and foes, things like that - but it never requires watching the old show to keep up. They'll tell you what you need to know, though obviously you might appreciate an episode starring the Sontarans, for example, just a little bit more if you remember them from the old days.

The difference between the new show and the old show are pretty jarring. The writing and special effects are drastically different as New Who has a fairly solid budget while Old Who often had to scrimp and save in order to afford a roll of bubble wrap and a package of bubblegum and it shows.

So, yeah, start with New Who - it's not as big a task to take on and you don't need Old Who to enjoy it. You may find yourself going back afterwards, but that will be a bonus if you're interested, not required reading.

We'll be waiting. And, of course, we'll be looking forward to your opinion on which incarnations of the Doctor are your favorites. That's always a great source of good-natured debate.

[Fyraltari]

Yes the best is, I think, to start with Serie One ("Serie" for NuWho, "Season" for Classic Who, Serie X = Season 26+X) and watch Classic later as I am doing (I am up to Season 17).

That said as Doctor Who is very aware of its status as a looooong show there are several "entry points" for new fans who would pick it up, generally when there is a both a new Doctor and new companions (Serie One, Serie Five and Season Seven come to mind) I suspect Serie Eleven will be one as well for these very reasons, and thus everyone pretty much meet everything for thefirst time/is in need of explanations from the Doctor. Despite the name "the pilot" the first episode of Serie 10 is not one of these.

The first 6 seasons are in black and white and many episodes wre taped over meanig we only have the audio and a few stills. Find one actual reel and the BBC will credit you and give you a Dalek statue!

Classic who episodes are packed in "serials" ie one story told in several episodes, serials pretty much never influence each others (except for the character growth and change in Doctor/Companions) save for a one or two seasons with a continous plot (The "Key to Time" arc and the "Trial of a Time Lord" come to mind).

Then there is a TV movie that retconned a lot of stuff which was retconned back in by NuWho (so I am told) but is still canon.

New episodes are mostly self contained with the occasionnal two or three parters but there is pretty much every-time a build up to the finale wich ties up all most of the loose ends, so really watch those in order (sometimes plot points from earlier season come back too!).

Between each Serie there is a Christmas Special that may be labelled as episode 0 of the following or as the last one of the preceding or even left out entirely. Watch out for these, some of those are important. There are also 4 specials between Serie 4 and Five and two between Serie Seven and Eight (well one 50th anniversary movie and one Christmas Special) that tie up everything that happened since NUWho beginned so don't miss them.

Oh and Serie Seven is in two parts.

Yeah this show is complicated.

[GrayDeath]

While the more Por Posts above have put it in more Detail, let me as a Whomateur say: Start with new Who, and even if you dont like the Episode, do not skip any, you might miss something crucially important.

After the first 3 Seasons you should know if its for you or not. ;)

[Psyren]

+1 start with NuWho.

I myself started with Eccleston and was completely uninvested in this "Doctor Who" stuff my friends kept going on about. It helped that my roommate at the time and I were in a show hole and the whole thing used to be on Netflix, so the barrier to entry was low.

I still remember the exact moment I became a Whovian - like many who started with Eccleston I'm sure, we eventually got to a quaint little episode called The Empty Child, followed by The Doctor Dances. From that moment on the emotional stakes were turned up to 11 and I found myself hooked.

[Obscuraphile]

a Dalek statue!

Doesn't the UK have laws about Sieg Heil-ing?


After the first 3 Seasons you should know if its for you or not. ;)

Three seasons to warm up? Yikes. I'm three episodes in and it's already getting kinda goofy for my tastes, even though I really want to like it and see what the big deal is.

[Androgeus]

Doesn't the UK have laws about Sieg Heil-ing?

Only to dogs


Three seasons to warm up? Yikes. I'm three episodes in and it's already getting kinda goofy for my tastes, even though I really want to like it and see what the big deal is.

Three series is probably a bit of an over estimate. I'd say the episodes that should really get you into the show are Dalek (Episode 6 off the top of my head), and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances(Episodes 8 & 9)

[Fyraltari]

Doesn't the UK have laws about Sieg Heil-ing?
One of their arm is a plunger and the other a whisk, considering that the BBC managed to takeaway the right of the image of a police box from the british police, I think they will be fine.




Three seasons to warm up? Yikes. I'm three episodes in and it's already getting kinda goofy for my tastes, even though I really want to like it and see what the big deal is.

Naah, If you don't like it by the Doctor Dances, you simply won't like it.
Alternatively, you may watch Blink (Serie 3 ep 10), it is told purposely from the perspective of an outsider (so doesn't need to know any continuity) to Doctor Who and is widely considered one of the best (if not the best) episode of NuWho, or even Doctor Who in general.

[BWR]

If you go with nuWho, skip the season finales. They are all, with the exception Capaldi's last, terrible. Also, avoid anything by Moffat as showrunner. He did good stuff under RTD but was terrible when he was in charge.
I'd start with oldWho because all the best stories, characters, Doctors and companions and villains are there.

[Obscuraphile]

I'd start with oldWho because all the best stories, characters, Doctors and companions and villains are there.

Could you narrow that down abit more than 20+ years of content? :smalleek:

[Fyraltari]

If you go with nuWho, skip the season finales. They are all, with the exception Capaldi's last, terrible. Also, avoid anything by Moffat as showrunner. He did good stuff under RTD but was terrible when he was in charge.
I'd start with oldWho because all the best stories, characters, Doctors and companions and villains are there.

Youdo realize that Capaldi's last finale had Moffat as showrunner?

[The Troubadour]

As someone who started this very same journey something like a year ago and binged everything from Eccleston's first episode to Capaldi's last special, start with New Who. And don't skip Nine! (That's Eccleston's number as the Doctor.)


I still remember the exact moment I became a Whovian - like many who started with Eccleston I'm sure, we eventually got to a quaint little episode called The Empty Child, followed by The Doctor Dances. From that moment on the emotional stakes were turned up to 11 and I found myself hooked.

Honestly, the moment I decided to continue investing in the series was when "Toxic" was chosen to serenade the - er, an important event in mankind's history. That's when all the insanity of the first episodes really hit me and I thought "Yeah, this is worth my time".

And then, a few episodes later, came "Dalek". Oh, man; that's when I was completely hooked.

*sigh* I miss Eccleston. All of the ones who came after were great Doctors, but he's still my favourite.

[Pex]

You have to be careful starting with Eccleston. Before you can get to the awesomeness of Empty Child/Doctor Dances you need to survive the stupidity of the fart aliens.

[Obscuraphile]

I noticed. 8 & 9 better be something pretty amazing

[The Troubadour]

You have to be careful starting with Eccleston. Before you can get to the awesomeness of Empty Child/Doctor Dances you need to survive the stupidity of the fart aliens.

You say "stupidity", I say "awesome craziness".

[Kato]

Could you narrow that down abit more than 20+ years of content? :smalleek:

Or you could listen to what the other ten people have recommended..

That said... Who is a goofy show often, maybe more often than not. Once in a while there's a really impact-/meaningful episode but a lot of it is goofy to some extent. So if that's not for you, you should not force yourself. I'd say if you find nothing good in season one, drop it. You don't have to like it.

[Obscuraphile]

Or you could listen to what the other ten people have recommended..

My yes, how unreasonable of me to continue participating in this discussion after so many people have been kind enough to weigh in :smallannoyed:

[jayem]

Could you narrow that [Old-who] down abit more than 20+ years of content? :smalleek:

Possibly the two Peter Cushing films? It gives you a feel of old who, and enough of the backstory while being in colour and then you can go back.

[Eldan]

What you want to do is what I did. Watch Nu Who, enjoy it as much as you can (it's campy and silly, sure, but that's just what it is), eventually get sick of it, watch a few old serials, and then entirely switch to Big Finish audio plays. They are for the most part entirely different in tone and structure, but really, really good overall.

[Kato]

My yes, how unreasonable of me to continue participating in this discussion after so many people have been kind enough to weigh in :smallannoyed:

I'm sorry (?) I merely meant since everyone said you should start with the new series, and one person told you to go with the old (and ignore half of the new), I thought it more reasonable to.. Well, accept the majority vote. Of course there's merit to listening to controversial opinions but in this case..

Also, maybe I was put off by his dismissal of all the later seasons. But really, I'm sorry, you're free to consider working through ~fifty years of content, if you want to.

[Eldan]

Starting with the new series, in my opinion, has the advantage that it was written as a fresh start to ease newer viewers into the massive canon, even though they ignored much of the old canon. When they started the old series, I don't think they remotely thought to go where it went later on, so most of the elements, including the doctor definitely being an alien, trickle in very slowly over the seasons.

[Thufir]

Starting with the new series is definitely the simpler and easier option, but if you want to get an idea of the old series as well, this may be of interest: https://www.doctorwho.tv/whats-new/article/classic-doctor-who-comes-to-twitch-for-seven-week-marathon

[GrayDeath]

Three seasons to warm up? Yikes. I'm three episodes in and it's already getting kinda goofy for my tastes, even though I really want to like it and see what the big deal is.

Well, no. The first NeWho Series does have awesome episodes. But the Doctors switch, and if you like the overall direction where it seems to be going, and can stomach the crazyness (and silliness, and...Doctorness^^) enough to TRULY become a fan should be clear by Series 3/End of that Series.

Dont make the same mistake I did when I first watched it and stop at Episode 5 of Eccleston. I needed almost 2 years to give it another go.....sigh...

[Rodin]

I've always found Eccleston's goofy episodes to be quite a bit goofier than much of what follows, and the goofiness comes off more "look how goofy we are" than the later seasons too. Series 2 is definitely where NuWho hits its stride and manages to balance the tone a bit.

Just don't expect any of the science (or time travel) to ever make sense.

[q785921]

There are a lot of good classic episodes, but there are also a lot of filler episodes, and some that can be very slowly paced by modern standards.

Not to say that there aren't clunkers in the new series. For my tastes, I'd say that the last two series with Peter Capaldi are some of the best the new series has on offer.

If you have the time, you might as well start with Christopher Eccleston ("Rose"). Everyone has there own favorite doctor, and favorite series. There are a few continuing characters and themes that show up across the new series, but nothing that will be too jarring if you skip a doctor (barring perhaps River....because Spoilers). As someone else mentioned, find a guide for the Christmas Specials. They are not queued with the rest of the episodes.

[Strigon]

I've always found Eccleston's goofy episodes to be quite a bit goofier than much of what follows, and the goofiness comes off more "look how goofy we are" than the later seasons too. Series 2 is definitely where NuWho hits its stride and manages to balance the tone a bit.

Just don't expect any of the science (or time travel) to ever make sense.

Everything said here is very true.
Doctor Who will always be a goofy show, where anything can happen and the most iconic villains wield toilet plungers. If that's a dealbreaker, then it's simply not the show for you.
That doesn't mean there aren't serious episodes, but... well, you wouldn't watch Game of Thrones for its feel-good moments, even if they may come along once in a blue moon.

But that last statement is entirely accurate. Anything goes for the science, time travel works a different way whenever it becomes convenient for it to do so, plot points that used to be hugely relevant are later glossed over, and plot points that would have completely changed everything earlier come up in later episodes with absolutely no thought to the implications. That's not to mention the ludicrous relative power levels of the species shown...

[BWR]

Could you narrow that down abit more than 20+ years of content? :smalleek:

I can give you a list of my favorite episodes if you'd like, but more generically, I'd start with D4/Tom Baker. He's the definitive Doctor and has pretty much the best companions until the end of his run, and good stories pretty much all around. D3/Jon Pertwee is good too and you can't really go wrong with most of those stories. His period also introduces the Master as portrayed by the inimitable Roger Delgado. D1/William Hartnell is the original, and he and D2/Patrick Troughton have both good and bad stuff I'd skip D5/Peter Davison for the first time around. He's pretty bland and has lame companions and didn't get many good stories. Colin Baker/D6 looks terrible and starts bad but grew on me towards the end, even though he suffers from having crap companions. D7/Sylvester McCoy is mixed, with most of the first half being pretty dull and most of the latter half being very good (some exceptions in either case)



Youdo realize that Capaldi's last finale had Moffat as showrunner?

I do. That finale wasn't terrible, merely bad, so you're still better off just ignoring Moffat's stories as showrunner in any case.

[factotum]

Not to say that there aren't clunkers in the new series. For my tastes, I'd say that the last two series with Peter Capaldi are some of the best the new series has on offer.


Wow, I'd have to totally disagree there...while Capaldi is a fine actor, I don't rate his Doctor very highly. Not his fault, it was the lines and the character he was given that didn't really work for me.

[Pex]

Wow, I'd have to totally disagree there...while Capaldi is a fine actor, I don't rate his Doctor very highly. Not his fault, it was the lines and the character he was given that didn't really work for me.

Capaldi's run had a couple of interesting for me episodes, but overall I wasn't having fun. There was no chemistry with Clara, and I didn't like Bill at all. I can even say I didn't care much for The Doctor either. He was gruff, insulting, and generally unlikable. Now that I think about it, it reminds of me Colin Baker's run. I wasn't looking forward to the show, just watching it for the sake of watching it because it's Doctor Who. It also didn't help it would be over a year between seasons (series in British terminology) I get used to not watching it because it's not there.

[Darth Ultron]

One good thing about Doctor Who is the show is always changing. If you don't like an episode, companion or even Doctor...just wait, they will change it soon enough.

Really, there is no way to get ''in'' to Doctor Who. Just watch and enjoy. Some episodes are great...and some are horrible. But it does depend on what you like too.

You don't need to worry much about the show mythology....as, well, it is beyond beyond hopelessly muddled and confused. No body was really paying attention, and it does show. How many times did they destroy Atlantis? Three? And remember all the maned missions to Mars in the ''late 20th century''?

If you like a single thing...say the Daleks, you could watch all the shows with them in it.

[Kantaki]

And remember all the maned missions to Mars in the ''late 20th century"?

They sent lions up there?:smallconfused:
I mean it's Doctor Who, so weirder things have happened.:smalltongue:

[factotum]

I can even say I didn't care much for The Doctor either. He was gruff, insulting, and generally unlikable.

I think that was my main problem--Capaldi did such a good job of portraying the Doctor as this unapproachable, generally hostile character that I just didn't like him.

[Obscuraphile]

I think that was my main problem--Capaldi did such a good job of portraying the Doctor as this unapproachable, generally hostile character that I just didn't like him.

Aren't all of the doctors fairly different from one another?

[Strigon]

Aren't all of the doctors fairly different from one another?

They are, but none of them have been real jerks before. Gruff, certainly, but even the worst ones treated people neutrally* at first, and only threw insults around if someone really deserved it.
Capaldi was a short-tempered, insulting, grumpy old man stereotype. I enjoyed him quite a lot, personally, but what the others have said is all true.

*Well, only "neutral" in how he spoke. He still went out of his way to help people, so not in that sense.

[GrayDeath]

Agreed. Didnt get into him at all at first, took a full season for that to partially change, and he`s still my least favourite of the New Doctors so far (Havent seen any of the actual season, I always wait till Ic an watch the whle thing in a few days^^).

If the put him in right after the "War Doctor" it woul have made a lot more sense, but right after Matt Smith? Not really...

[The Troubadour]

I liked Twelfth, partly because Eleventh's quirkiness and zaniness had begun to wear thin for me. Also, while I can't claim I'm an expert on the show (having never watched a single episode of the classic series, for instance), I think the Doctor needs at least some grumpiness and even mercilessness to balance him out, and while I do not blame Matt Smith's acting for that in any way, most of the time I felt like Eleventh seemed more like someone playing at that than someone who truly could be dangerous if pushed to his limits, or a true alien who could just get tired of people's stupidity.

[factotum]

I think the Doctor needs at least some grumpiness and even mercilessness to balance him out

And every other Doctor has done that while still being basically likable. Even William Hartnell, whose Doctor was probably closest to Capaldi's in terms of personality, was more of a grumpy but basically kindly grandfather. Tennant in particular really managed to provide humour in the role, while still being believably someone every alien race from here to the Horsehead Nebula would collectively soil themselves when hearing he was on his way.

[Fyraltari]

Aren't all of the doctors fairly different from one another?
Yeah, everyone have their favorite and least favorite/hated Doctors and the same goes for companions and showrunners.
Seriously Doctor Who's fandom makes Star Wars' look united by comparison.
My advice is as good as any other's but I strongly recommend not to listen to people telling you to skip entire swathes of the show because X was the Doctor/companion/showrunner at the time as their is a high chance you would find something for you in that period.

As for Capaldi's Twelth Doctor it is my favourite of NuWho (probably because Eleven's zaniness nver really clicked with me). His acting his top-notch and he gets some of the more heartfelt moments in the whole show. Listen, Death in Heaven, Into the Dalek, Last Christmas, Extremis,Magician's apprentice/Witch familiar and Doctor Falls to name a few were excellent to me.

He is gruff but that didn't make him less relatable to me as:
1) Who wouldn't be after all that?
2) He isn't gruffier than Three or One.
3) It is basically stated that Ten's and Eleven's behaviour were in good part to cope with the Time War which Twelve has less to do for reasons that I won't spoil to Obscuraphile.
4) I like my anti-heroes with a side of brooding.

[Obscuraphile]

3) It is basically stated that Ten's and Eleven's behaviour were in good part to cope with the Time War which Twelve has less to do for reasons that I won't spoil to Obscuraphile.

He hid Gallifrey instead of destroying it but then some of his incarnations didn't know. I don't worry about spoilers :smalltongue: I watch shows and read their wikis on the side with no regard for what I might run across. I like it better that way. It means I don't wait for ages and forget my questions about a given subject.

[The Troubadour]

That was a change I quite disliked, even though I liked the actual special.


And every other Doctor has done that while still being basically likable.

Aw, come on, you didn't find him even the least bit likeable? "Just... Just see me"? Or his "just a madman in a box" or "just kind" speeches?

[factotum]

Oh, he got better later on--I'm talking mainly about his first season, which I thought was all kinds of terrible.

[dps]

I think Capaldi is actually my favorite of the NuWho Doctors, actually. Though that doesn't necessarily mean that he always got the best stories. At any rate, I wouldn't recommend anyone start with Capaldi.

I think there are 4 or 5 places to start:

1) Start at the very beginning, with the First Doctor story, "An Unearthly Child". If you're OK with black and white instead of color, and with a slower pace of story telling, this is the best place to start. Other than the black and white presentation, the main disadvantage is the fairly large number of missing episodes.

2) Start with the Third Doctor's first story, "Spearhead From Space". This avoids all the missing episodes, and is the start of the color era for Doctor Who. The big disadvantage is that much of the Third Doctor's era is a bit of an outlier--for most of his run, the Doctor was exiled, stuck on Earth in the present day, and unable to freely travel in time and space.

3) Start with the Fourth Doctor's first story, "Robot". This is much closer to what to expect from most of Doctor Who than the Third Doctor's era, and to many, Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor is The Doctor. Disadvantages: some viewers may still find the pacing slow by today's standards, and IMO "Robot" isn't really a particularly good story.

4) Start with the start of NuWho, with the Ninth Doctor story, "Rose". The advantages is that the pacing and effects are pretty much what modern audiences are supposedly more comfortable with. There's not really any disadvantage of this except that you'll be missing a lot of the show's history, but if you like what you see, you can always go back and check out Classic Who.

5) Start with the Eleventh Doctor's first story, "The Eleventh Hour". A new Doctor, a new companion, and a new showrunner, so a lot of change from the Ninth and Tenth Doctors' runs. OTOH, there's no real advantage of starting here instead of with the Ninth Doctor.

[Eldan]

They are, but none of them have been real jerks before. Gruff, certainly, but even the worst ones treated people neutrally* at first, and only threw insults around if someone really deserved it.
Capaldi was a short-tempered, insulting, grumpy old man stereotype. I enjoyed him quite a lot, personally, but what the others have said is all true.

*Well, only "neutral" in how he spoke. He still went out of his way to help people, so not in that sense.

Oh, I don't know. There's early First Doctor, much of Sixth Doctor, late Seventh Doctor (in a way, sometimes, not really)... Cappaldi is one of the worst for pure insultiness, sure, but others had their moments.

[Reddish Mage]

If you look at Christopher Eccleston, his doctor is actually very negative, and regarding humanity especially (David Tennant is like night and day). Moreover we get plots that support that negativity. Also Matt Smith eventually goes through a period where he eschews human for alien contact and becomes very curmudgeonly. Even David Tenant has his moments (or Tom Baker).

I think the gruffness of the Doctor, a readiness to sometimes act dismissive of other individuals, species or even humanity. This is very much always a part of him, only its emphasized differently and some doctors more of an inclination towards positivity and wonder.

[The Troubadour]

If you look at Christopher Eccleston, his doctor is actually very negative, and regarding humanity especially [...]

I know! Isn't it great - that he sometimes has such a dim view of humanity, but still thinks it's a species worth protecting and even admiring (see, for instance, him fanboying over Dickens, or his child-like glee at humanity making first contact with an alien species)?
Also, to be fair, he's at his most critical of humanity as a whole (as opposed to individuals, like poor Mickey) when he feels betrayed by his companions.

[Reddish Mage]

I know! Isn't it great - that he sometimes has such a dim view of humanity, but still thinks it's a species worth protecting and even admiring (see, for instance, him fanboying over Dickens...)

Notice who he admires.

[The Troubadour]

A philantropic writer who's widely regarded as one of the great English authors for his satire of society, while also displaying racism, xenophobia and sexism?

[Fyraltari]

I know! Isn't it great - that he sometimes has such a dim view of humanity, but still thinks it's a species worth protecting and even admiring (see, for instance, him fanboying over Dickens, or his child-like glee at humanity making first contact with an alien species)?
Also, to be fair, he's at his most critical of humanity as a whole (as opposed to individuals, like poor Mickey) when he feels betrayed by his companions.

One of my favorite headcanons (might go and post it in that thread over there) is that he like humanity because so much because Ia stopped him from killing Za in a moment of panick and in pure self-interest which would have been the first step in becoming like the Master.