PC Death Question

[Deathslayer7]

I will start off by saying I have been playing with this group for over 5 years and enjoy it. Last night my PC died and I feel slightly angry/annoyed by how it happened. I don't mind PC death. I had quite a few die on me, the previous being taking a critical
to the face twice in a row. The story is below but my main question is this.

How do I address my issues to the dm without him feel like he is being attacked?

Backstory: we are currently playing Tomb of Annihilation (ToA). In previous campaigns, the dm has been lenient with PC Death. Tries to avoid it if possible. Well for this campaign, he said that will change and PCs will die.

Early on we had approximately 5 battles in a row. My character was out of spells and around 5 hp and we were fighting giant mosquitoes. Playing true to my character, I said we should just hide under our canoes and let them go by. The rest of the part disagreed even though they were hurt and low on resources too. The battle ends with the barbarian dying and the fighter should have died as well but the dm was lenient. He let her ignore the death saving throw from taking damage. Anyway, the dm did a vision thing and brought the barbarian back to life with three massive claw marks on his chest. I'm guessing RP reasons. Not really sure. Anyway, my point is two PCs "died" but he brought them back to life. My best guess is this was their first time playing and he didn't want to kill them off.

After the battle, half the group got mad my character for not helping during the battle. Needless to say, after that group cohesion was barely there. It hurt even more by the fact that I missed the first session and never really got introduced to the group either.

Later on we attacked a group of were tiger slavers and ended the session there. I missed the following week but I just found out that we let two of them go alive because the npc would not allow us to kill them. Also, others escaped so their reasoning was eh why not. We can let them go to. I was not there for that conversation. Thisimportant later.

Months of jungle exploration pass and we get back to town. Lots of people split up and two people camp outside the city. As I go home, I am told to roll perception. Guy has a +9 to stealth versus my +2. Didn't even come close to beating it. As I am unlocking the door to my home I am shot with a crossbow bolt.

The guy is an assassin rogue and auto crits on his first hit. Well the bolt was poisoned and he got sneak attack.

I instantly took 2d10 (crossbow) + 14d6 (poison) + 8d6 (SA). I passed the con save so only took half damage from poison. Needless to say I took 5 piercing 56/2=28 poison and 30 sneak attack for a grand total of 63 damage. My HP as a sorcerer was 35 at level 6. I became unconscious and rolled a 4, 2, and 4 on my death saves and bleed out and died.

The guy who killed me was part of the slavers guild. Needless to say I'm a bit angry. The DMs reason was this encounter was planned for all of us but we split up. Somehow I'm the one who gets shot not the other 3 people who went off on their own.

I should mention I haven't even been in town for 30 minutes and we came in the middle of the night to avoid exactly this type of situation and some of is disguised ourselves. Myself included.

I don't care the fact that I died, it's more of the fact that previous people died and got away with it, and the fact about HOW I died.

So back to my original question. How do I address this to my dm? I feel like I never really had a chance there.

[Unoriginal]

Tell the DM what you just wrote, calmly, and let them explain themselves.

At the very least, the rest of the group should also be ambushed by competent assassins.

And then those assassins and the people who hired them would be Sanctioned by Port Nyanzaru and killed, because you don't mess with the Merchant-Princes' laws on assassinations.

Not sure why your DM decided to add a slaver guild, though, no one in Nyanzaru would agree to do business with slavers. No legit people anyway.

Also I'd say that while the assassin was tough, it was a valid move overall (as long as you're not the only one targeted) but bringing a dead PC back to life goes against the whole point of the campaign, which is "something is preventing bringing people back to life".

[Trask]

I will start off by saying I have been playing with this group for over 5 years and enjoy it. Last night my PC died and I feel slightly angry/annoyed by how it happened. I don't mind PC death. I had quite a few die on me, the previous being taking a critical
to the face twice in a row. The story is below but my main question is this.

How do I address my issues to the dm without him feel like he is being attacked?

Backstory: we are currently playing Tomb of Annihilation (ToA). In previous campaigns, the dm has been lenient with PC Death. Tries to avoid it if possible. Well for this campaign, he said that will change and PCs will die.

Early on we had approximately 5 battles in a row. My character was out of spells and around 5 hp and we were fighting giant mosquitoes. Playing true to my character, I said we should just hide under our canoes and let them go by. The rest of the part disagreed even though they were hurt and low on resources too. The battle ends with the barbarian dying and the fighter should have died as well but the dm was lenient. He let her ignore the death saving throw from taking damage. Anyway, the dm did a vision thing and brought the barbarian back to life with three massive claw marks on his chest. I'm guessing RP reasons. Not really sure. Anyway, my point is two PCs "died" but he brought them back to life. My best guess is this was their first time playing and he didn't want to kill them off.

After the battle, half the group got mad my character for not helping during the battle. Needless to say, after that group cohesion was barely there. It hurt even more by the fact that I missed the first session and never really got introduced to the group either.

Later on we attacked a group of were tiger slavers and ended the session there. I missed the following week but I just found out that we let two of them go alive because the npc would not allow us to kill them. Also, others escaped so their reasoning was eh why not. We can let them go to. I was not there for that conversation. Thisimportant later.

Months of jungle exploration pass and we get back to town. Lots of people split up and two people camp outside the city. As I go home, I am told to roll perception. Guy has a +9 to stealth versus my +2. Didn't even come close to beating it. As I am unlocking the door to my home I am shot with a crossbow bolt.

The guy is an assassin rogue and auto crits on his first hit. Well the bolt was poisoned and he got sneak attack.

I instantly took 2d10 (crossbow) + 14d6 (poison) + 8d6 (SA). I passed the con save so only took half damage from poison. Needless to say I took 5 piercing 56/2=28 poison and 30 sneak attack for a grand total of 63 damage. My HP as a sorcerer was 35 at level 6. I became unconscious and rolled a 4, 2, and 4 on my death saves and bleed out and died.

The guy who killed me was part of the slavers guild. Needless to say I'm a bit angry. The DMs reason was this encounter was planned for all of us but we split up. Somehow I'm the one who gets shot not the other 3 people who went off on their own.

I should mention I haven't even been in town for 30 minutes and we came in the middle of the night to avoid exactly this type of situation and some of is disguised ourselves. Myself included.

I don't care the fact that I died, it's more of the fact that previous people died and got away with it, and the fact about HOW I died.

So back to my original question. How do I address this to my dm? I feel like I never really had a chance there.

Him bringing back the others for no reason smells bad to me. I dont know he did that but theres a reason its a bad idea.

As for your death, I think assassins hunting you seems fair, I question how they were able to figure out your identities. In a situation like that I like to give the PC a chance that he will hear rumors that people are asking about him and such.

I would say if it bothers you just go to him and say I dont like that my character died without me being able to make any choices in the matter. I dont know your relationship with him but if hes an adult you can at least talk about it honestly. Maybe he wont agree but at least youll have conveyed your feelings.

[Deathslayer7]

He brought them back to life for the sole reason he didn't want to kill their first character. He didn't say it out loud, but I'm 99 percent sure that's why.

As for the fairness, I agree being hunted is fair. What I don't agree with is dieing a half hour into the city and them knowing you are there when you try to avoid that scenario. I didn't ask how they knew we were there and frankly I don't know if I plan to ask.

And I do plan to talk to him just wanted time to cool down first.

[Malifice]

The guy is an assassin rogue and auto crits on his first hit. Well the bolt was poisoned and he got sneak attack.

I instantly took 2d10 (crossbow) + 14d6 (poison) + 8d6 (SA). I passed the con save so only took half damage from poison. Needless to say I took 5 piercing 56/2=28 poison and 30 sneak attack for a grand total of 63 damage. My HP as a sorcerer was 35 at level 6. I became unconscious and rolled a 4, 2, and 4 on my death saves and bleed out and died.

Your DM screwed up.

The poison damage isnt doubled on a crit (there has been recent sage advice ruling on this; seeing as the poison has a save DC its treated as a seperate effect and not doubled on the crit).

You should have only taken 14 poison damage.

Not that it would have mattered.

Did the assassin also win initiative, or did the DM screw that up as well and 'resolve the attack outside of initiative order?' If he was following the rules, initiative should have been called for, giving you a slight chance of acting before the Assassins bolt struck true (you cant take actions, but reactions are fine) and maybe shielding yourself from the attack (presuming you know the spell).

If so you might be able to ask for a do-over.

Otherwise it sounds like your DM doesnt like you as a person if he'd saving everyone else from dying, and murdering you.

Id quit the campaign probably, but not for any of the above. Your PCs showed mercy to NPCs and the DM had them come back and murder you. The fool is pushing you guys into a no-mercy play style where you murder everything you come across to avoid gotchas. Its a classic DM mistake.

He should have had one of the Slavers come to the party later on and thank them for showing him mercy, and given you inside information to help destroy the slavers guild (or similar). Good deeds should be rewarded, and not punished.

From now on I expect his players to cut the throats of every prisoner. He'll hate that of course, but he only has himself to blame.

[Pelle]

The problems with assassins is that they will always feel like a screwjob, even though they are played perfectly fair.

If they knew about your group, and saw you splitting up, attacking the weakest-looking character makes sense. And if the assassin does its job, it's not noticed first and has a high chance of one-shotting someone. So it might have been completely fair and natural consequences of your actions. But obviously something you as players didn't predict and couldn't plan according to, so it still feels bad.

"You die" is the nature of assassins, so it's something the DM should have considered in the planning. And it also depends on players if they prefer 'fair' or 'fun' scenarios, though this kind of scenario can easily feel unfair anyways.

[Unoriginal]

Good deeds shouldn't always be rewarded. Some NPcs have no sense of gratitude, just like some real-life people.

In the campaign of ToA I DM, the PCs stopped a thief from escaping, then used the favor from the shop owner they helped to make the thief go free, which the shop owner agreed to after some convincing (he wanted to do them another favor, but they were pretty adamant on that). It doesn't mean the thief will be grateful, since the PCs ruined his one shot at making it big and his reputation among criminals, so now he's going to try and kill them. Meanwhile, the bullywug henchman who joined the group would is grateful the PCs gave him an opportunity, and would be immensely grateful if the PCs manage to help him start his business by finding giant frogs. He's still neutral evil and wouldn't hesitate leaving someone to die to save his skin, but he would certainly always be ready to help out the PCs if it's within his means.

If I had been OP's DM, though, I would have probably made so the slaver order the assassins to kill everyone except the one who showed mercy to them. Or maybe even have the slaver turns to other businesses after realizing someone saved their life with empathy they always denied slaves.

[SiCK_Boy]

I would need a lot more information in order to provide any kind of advice:

- Is this game played in person or over the internet?
- What is your relationship with this DM? How long have you known him?
- What is your relationship with the rest of the group? How long have you known them?
- What are your group's rules regarding absent players and what happens to their PC while they are absent?
- Do you already have the habit of having discussions outside the game (either via email exchange or some other mechanism) with the DM or the group (or all together)?
- Do you think that having your character somehow survive would work better for the group and the story in the short and long run?
- Do you already have a backup character ready (or can you make one quickly), and do you feel it would be easy to integrate that character in the story and with the group?
- Do you feel the other players share your view on the "unfairness" of the situation? How did they react when you got murdered while the party was split for a town visit?
- What was your character class? What level was your character? At what level did you start? What level are the other characters in the group?
- What are the rules regarding starting level and equipment for a new character at your table?
- How long ago has all this happened? When is your next game scheduled? What is the frequency of your games? Are you supposed to have a new character ready by then? Do you build your character at the table with the DM and the rest of the group, or alone on your own?

I can still provide some observations, even without answers to all the above questions:

- You should certainly approach your DM. All DM need to hear feedback from their players. Depending on how the discussion turns, you should also consider involving the other players (their view on things may matter as much, if not more, as yours).
- I would not focus much on the first part of your post if you discuss with the DM. His treatment of other characters is not all that relevant (except to highlight the fact that he was not coherent). You don't want thinks to turn into a "then the others die as well" situation, and you don't want the other players to feel attacked by your reaction. And if your reading of the situation is correct, I think it is fine that the DM spared a few characters just because their players are new.
- I think you have multiple topics to discuss, and each should be a separate line of discussion: the dynamic within the group (how PCs work together), the rate and deadliness of encounters, and the death of your PC in a solo ambush. Break each one down, as you may get support and different answers on each of those.
- That assassination encounter does feel unfair. But since we don't know fully why it happened (you seem to imply you were expecting something of this nature), it's hard to judge. Maybe try to ask the DM what his goal was with this encounter? Was he thinking you had a fair chance? Was he hoping your death would serve to rally the rest of the party? How was it feeding the story's narrative, and how "logical" was it in the context of your group's adventure up to this point? Independently of his responses, if he had answers to these (other than "the book said there should be assassins"), I would then assume it was a deliberate and "in knowing" decision from the DM, and I would not push to hard for a do-over. But raising these questions will force the DM to explain a bit of his thought process on the situation.


Did the assassin also win initiative, or did the DM screw that up as well and 'resolve the attack outside of initiative order?'

My understanding is that the player's Perception was not enough to spot the assassin as it moved in (the assassin's Stealth check was higher), so that is why the PC was surprised.

[Deathslayer7]

I don't agree that the NPCs should always show us mercy. We killed them because we thought they were monsters. Saving people doesn't always work out for the best.

And yes, I was surprised by the assassin when he killed me.


I would need a lot more information in order to provide any kind of advice:

- Is this game played in person or over the internet?
internet. Over roll20 and discord.
- What is your relationship with this DM? How long have you known him?
friend from middle school. Moved to the east coast during high school. Kind of lost touch for a few years then but got back together later. 5+ at least.
- What is your relationship with the rest of the group? How long have you known them?
met a few in person when I went for the wedding. Otherwise I have played campaigns with them for 2 years now. The rest all know each other really well since they are all east coast.
- What are your group's rules regarding absent players and what happens to their PC while they are absent?
absent PCs do nothing and gain no exp.
- Do you already have the habit of having discussions outside the game (either via email exchange or some other mechanism) with the DM or the group (or all together)?
we use discord to talk outside the game. Either through voice or chat. Can be game related stuff and can be just random stuff.
- Do you think that having your character somehow survive would work better for the group and the story in the short and long run?
honestly not really. 6 players, two out right distrusted me. Other two were meh. No side taken.
- Do you already have a backup character ready (or can you make one quickly), and do you feel it would be easy to integrate that character in the story and with the group?
I can easily create one. As to integration of the story, no idea. Got to talk to the dm on that one.
- Do you feel the other players share your view on the "unfairness" of the situation? How did they react when you got murdered while the party was split for a town visit?
I think they sided moreso with me than the dm. I got a lot of 'that sucks'.
- What was your character class? What level was your character? At what level did you start? What level are the other characters in the group?
sorcerer 6. Started at level 1. Everyone is between levels 5-6.
- What are the rules regarding starting level and equipment for a new character at your table?
got to talk to the dm.
- How long ago has all this happened? When is your next game scheduled? What is the frequency of your games? Are you supposed to have a new character ready by then? Do you build your character at the table with the DM and the rest of the group, or alone on your own?
happened about 24 hours ago. We play every Monday from 7-11pm. Might skip memorial weekend. Yes I'm supposed to have a new character ready. I build my character on my own.


Answers in bold.

[smcmike]

This is a crap way to die, and your feelings are totally justified. The question is what to do about it.

First, I’d try to separate out your conflict with the other players and your feeling that they got special treatment when they were allowed to live. The disparate treatment might sting a little, but it really doesn’t have anything to do with what happened to your character.

Second, identify what about your death was annoying to you. It seems to me that the core issue is that you expected “town” to be safe enough to split up, and therefore got stuck with an impossible encounter based upon this reasonable assumption. I’d talk privately with the DM, and frame it that way: that this encounter wasn’t fun and essentially didn’t give you any decision points to avoid death. That’s poor game design.

After that, drop it, and make a new character (or leave the campaign if you are really sick of it and have other things to do).

[Unoriginal]

I would ask if it's possibly to re-do the fight, given the DM messed up some rules.

[Deathslayer7]

What fight? I got surprised auto crit. I didn't even roll initiative. I'll try to sort out what about it bugs me.

[smcmike]

What fight? I got surprised auto crit. I didn't even roll initiative. I'll try to sort out what about it bugs me.

If you didn’t even roll initiative, your DM made a rules error to your detriment. You should always roll initiative in a fight. As others have pointed out, your DM is playing surprise incorrectly, a very common mistake.

[Deathslayer7]

Either way I don't think redoing the fight is an option for two reasons.

First there was a finality to my death and I was told to make a new character when I asked.
Second, it was an encounter designed for 6 PCs. One of the enemies one shotted me. I don't think rolling initiative would change the outcome of the death.

[Unoriginal]

Either way I don't think redoing the fight is an option for two reasons.

First there was a finality to my death and I was told to make a new character when I asked.
Second, it was an encounter designed for 6 PCs. One of the enemies one shotted me. I don't think rolling initiative would change the outcome of the death.

The first point is something for the DM to decide after explaining the mistakes he did.

As for the second: you only got one-shot because the DM messed up. As Malifice and others pointed out, crits don't work like that.

[Demonslayer666]

Some advice: First and foremost, sleep on it.

Before you do talk to them, write down your talking points. Word them so they are not attacks - for example, "I hate that you did this to me". Should be something like "I'm not having as much fun as I used to, I feel picked on and singled out."

Write down your expectations and what you would like, and what's fun for you. Create solutions for the problem. Open it for discussion as well and ask them what both of you can do to fix it.

When you do talk to them, do so in a calm cool and collected manner.

The whole point of the game is to have fun.

[ad_hoc]

This is an out of game issue.

I would just quit. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

If you really do want to keep playing then you should talk with the group about what is fun for you and what issues they have with you.

[WOTC_GM]

There are a couple of very apparent issues here.

Your DM is already heavily home-brewing this campaign from the sounds of it, as there is nothing regarding slavers in the module, and it would appear your DM is ignoring the time limit if your party has already been traveling for months and is only around level 5-6. Also, none of the players in your party should be coming back from death, especially not at low levels. That totally defeats the purpose of playing in a ToA campaign were death is permanent. If the DM is going to bring back multiple other people, you should talk to him about allowing yours to come back as well.

Just take your DM aside and calmly explain to him how you feel in regards to how the other player deaths have been treated in comparison to your own. It's fine if he wants to change up the campaign from what is written, but these changes need to apply the same to all players. If the death curse isn't actually preventing players from coming back, ask for a better clarification on what the curse is doing and how to work around it.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think you should make your next character an Assassin and kill some folks. Your DM is having too much fun.

[Deathslayer7]

Well I talked to the dm and found out a bit more. The two slavers the group let go went back to town and bribed the guards to tell them if any of us came back through the gate. Well the guards did. I guess the disguises didn't matter. During the time we were away they found out two of us owned homes in Port. So they set up assassins at our homes.

The DM thought that one of us would have invited the rest of the party to our homes. And I think this is where it all went wrong. Ironically enough 2 camped outside and 2 went to an inn. When the other PC answered their door, their brother in law opened it and his wife was nowhere to be found. He found out that she was living with prince wakanga and banged on his door and barged in. The assassins figured it was too risky to make a move on him. I wasnt so lucky as I had no one near me.

I also happened to be unlucky because I was the last PC telling the dm what we planned to do in Port.

[Pelle]

Well I talked to the dm and found out a bit more. The two slavers the group let go went back to town and bribed the guards to tell them if any of us came back through the gate. Well the guards did. I guess the disguises didn't matter. During the time we were away they found out two of us owned homes in Port. So they set up assassins at our homes.

The DM thought that one of us would have invited the rest of the party to our homes. And I think this is where it all went wrong. Ironically enough 2 camped outside and 2 went to an inn. When the other PC answered their door, their brother in law opened it and his wife was nowhere to be found. He found out that she was living with prince wakanga and banged on his door and barged in. The assassins figured it was too risky to make a move on him. I wasnt so lucky as I had no one near me.

I also happened to be unlucky because I was the last PC telling the dm what we planned to do in Port.

Sounds like a case where the DM should ask him/herself if they should commit to the stuff that has naturally happened without the players knowing, or 'fudge' and scrap it and invent a new "what if" scenario that will be more enjoyable to the players. In my experience, this is totally depending on what the players prefer, what the premise for the game is. If you don't care about consequences and just want to experience a cool improvised story, let the DM know what you prefer so these situations can be avoided.

[smcmike]

Sounds like a case where the DM should ask him/herself if they should commit to the stuff that has naturally happened without the players knowing, or 'fudge' and scrap it and invent a new "what if" scenario that will be more enjoyable to the players. In my experience, this is totally depending on what the players prefer, what the premise for the game is. If you don't care about consequences and just want to experience a cool improvised story, let the DM know what you prefer so these situations can be avoided.

Yeah. Personally, I’m not a fan of having these sorts of background scripted events take precedence over player fun, which is what it sounds like happened here. While it’s nice in theory to have an objective world where the players are able to freely interact and face the full consequences of their actions, that theory is both impossible and not necessarily very much fun in practice.

[ad_hoc]

Yeah. Personally, I’m not a fan of having these sorts of background scripted events take precedence over player fun, which is what it sounds like happened here. While it’s nice in theory to have an objective world where the players are able to freely interact and face the full consequences of their actions, that theory is both impossible and not necessarily very much fun in practice.

I am against fudging and I value the story changing based on everyone's input at the table as well as luck.

That said, if something is off camera it doesn't exist. Many published adventures have this problem. There is a ton of story in them which isn't part of the game. In this case it sounds like the DM just wants to tell their own story which is, unfortunately, very common.

[smcmike]

I am against fudging and I value the story changing based on everyone's input at the table as well as luck.

That said, if something is off camera it doesn't exist. Many published adventures have this problem. There is a ton of story in them which isn't part of the game. In this case it sounds like the DM just wants to tell their own story which is, unfortunately, very common.

I’m talking about off-camera scripting. Is it fudging if it’s off-camera?

Really, what I’m objecting to is a sort of category error in the DM’s justification. When a player gets hit by a totally unfair/unfun situation, and complains about it, using in-world justification doesn’t make any sense to me. The DM can justify any stupid thing with in-world logic, since the DM controls the world.

If the DM wants to engage with the complaint, the proper way to do so is with game logic - for instance, the DM in this case may be able to demonstrate that the players were actually given adequate warning that splitting the party in town was a potentially deadly mistake. Alternatively, he might argue that random deaths like this are a feature, not a bug, of the type of campaign he is trying to run. Or he could just apologize for designing something that didn’t work, and move on.

[Pelle]

I am against fudging and I value the story changing based on everyone's input at the table as well as luck.

That said, if something is off camera it doesn't exist. Many published adventures have this problem. There is a ton of story in them which isn't part of the game. In this case it sounds like the DM just wants to tell their own story which is, unfortunately, very common.

You don't think removing the players ability to negatively affect their situation is removing their agency, though? Blaming the DM for telling their own story is a bit unfair, if the DM is expected to neutrally arbitrate natural consequences.

I don't mind the attitude that everything not on camera is 'undecided', but it is an expectation that should be made clear with everyone. For example, when exploring a sewers system, should it be left 'undecided' if there's an exit at the end of the tunnel the party is following? If so the group can figure it out and a fun story can be improvised together, but then there is no real world to explore. I see the benefit of both, but they are kind of mutually exclusive.

[darknite]

You were attacked by an assassin while on your own. It happens. Roll with it.

What's keeping your PC from being raised?

[Unoriginal]

You were attacked by an assassin while on your own. It happens. Roll with it.

What's keeping your PC from being raised?

The Death Curse.

[Demonslayer666]

It is not fudging when you design an encounter for the entire party and one person, through no fault of their own, faces that encounter alone.

There absolutely needed to be a warning that you were facing overwhelming odds, not "blam! you're dead!"

That's bad DMing and not appropriately challenging the party. This was poorly thought out and poorly executed. (pun intended)

It has nothing to do with being unlucky.

[darknite]

The Death Curse.

That does make it a little different. I don't mind a PC dropping for story reasons now and again if rez magic is about. But a wham-bam-so-sorry-Sam hit is not cool.

[Sigreid]

Reading the story I don't really see anything wrong. Successful adventurers need to keep in mind that they have likely made enemies and not all will fight fair.