How to make a Very Good Paladin

[SociopathFriend]

The rundown is thus: I was asked to join a campaign under a DM I'm familiar with. He's pretty fond of "earned" victory, also known as, "Not pulling punches very much."
He mentioned in a text we were playing with predominantly younger children- that to me spells disaster for two reasons.

1) It's Out of the Abyss, nuff said.
2) Given that he likely doesn't want to kill the kids, that makes it all the more likely the worst stuff will target me.

Now I have a rundown of the party and it's mainly Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians so far as I know. I need a unit that can keep inexperienced players alive while being capable of keeping myself alive with possibly a greater "focus" of enemy attention, presumably while also probably fulfilling people-pleasing.
Paladin seemed like the best answer to these needs, particularly Ancient Paladin as Conquest Paladin isn't allowed. (Though alternative suggestions are by all means allowed if you have a better idea)

As such, any suggestions for making him the best little Paladin-boy he can be? Damages might be secondary but I need to live and I need to help others live while also convincing even more, hostile, others that we SHOULD live.
My stats are 8 - 16 - 15 - 15 - 13 - 15
^Not in that order, that's just what they are, I can assign them as I please.
(Yes I asked recently about a different idea using these stats, that was before I realized I might have to "carry" the team)

I do know what's in store as I've played this campaign before- but I'm not going to metagame beyond the idea that, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna have to work to keep them alive/not captured/not enslaved/ not imprisoned/etc." that prompted this thread.

[Davrix]

The rundown is thus: I was asked to join a campaign under a DM I'm familiar with. He's pretty fond of "earned" victory, also known as, "Not pulling punches very much."
He mentioned in a text we were playing with predominantly younger children- that to me spells disaster for two reasons.

1) It's Out of the Abyss, nuff said.
2) Given that he likely doesn't want to kill the kids, that makes it all the more likely the worst stuff will target me.

Now I have a rundown of the party and it's mainly Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians so far as I know. I need a unit that can keep inexperienced players alive while being capable of keeping myself alive with possibly a greater "focus" of enemy attention, presumably while also probably fulfilling people-pleasing.
Paladin seemed like the best answer to these needs, particularly Ancient Paladin as Conquest Paladin isn't allowed. (Though alternative suggestions are by all means allowed if you have a better idea)


As such, any suggestions for making him the best little Paladin-boy he can be? Damages might be secondary but I need to live and I need to help others live while also convincing even more, hostile, others that we SHOULD live.
My stats are 8 - 16 - 15 - 15 - 13 - 15
(Yes I asked recently about a different idea using these stats, that was before I realized I might have to "carry" the team)


Conquest paladin with a lv 1 Dip into hexblade so you can snag shield. this way you focus on Char and stick a 15 in str and forget about it. Take booming blade and wrathful smite for battlefield control and save spells for shields on reaction when a bad round of hits is inc. Sword and board it and it will fully come online when you get the lv 6 and 7 arua's with fear at lv 10. You are going to want to pump Char to 20 as son as you can but Warcaster is also a very high on the must have list. So maybe start with a variant human to pick that up at the start.

[AureusFulgens]

Running Out of the Abyss for kids sounds like... I'll say an idea I would not have, rather than a bad one. It could work with the right kids, I suppose.

You're running a Dexadin, I take it (from the 8 Strength). Which makes being a tank a bit more interesting: you can't get as good an AC right out of the gate (your options are wear chain anyway and take the penalties for an 18 AC with a shield, or wear leather and wind up with a 16). But that CON is nice, so your HP maximum shouldn't be lacking. And for a bit of AC boost you can take a race that ups your Dex, by which I mostly mean elf, maybe drow elf for the Charisma bonus and the nice Underdark flavor - let's be honest, Sunlight Sensitivity isn't going to come up much.

As far as fighting style at level 2, how about Protection? If you're really going to be tasked with keeping the heat off of the other players, this could be a good way to do it, and your young party members will probably think it's pretty cool, though I don't claim to be any expert on the behavior of children.

Another point for drow elf: having faerie fire once per day lets you highlight enemies for your fighter, rogue, and barbarian buddies. The advantage from that should give the rogues Sneak Attack damage, and everyone will appreciate hitting more often - though of course if you're taking hits all the time, keeping concentration will be rough. Again, it's less the effectiveness and more helping the other party members to shine or feel like they're shining. Your companions are probably not min-maxers. "Best paladin" here does not mean what it might mean elsewhere on the forum.

You mentioned talking people out of hurting you. If you're bent on that, you want Persuasion and/or Intimidation (my own Dexadin had both, which was frequently pretty fun, even though I often hear that they're redundant from other people), and you'll want to brush up on your speeches if your DM is the sort who might let rolling a die slide for good enough RP. But I'd also suggest that you consider whether one of your co-players wants to be party face. I'd only take the role if none of them wants it. Again: your co-players are children. Let them do what they want, and fill in the gaps.

Once you get spellcasting at second level, plan on using your concentration on bless, I'd say, or maybe heroism and shield of faith if you want to mix it up. And plan on burning your other slots on cure wounds. Smiting is probably not your job, you have plenty of damage people who will want to be slaughtering the enemy themselves. On which note, once you get it, magic weapon is probably for casting on somebody else.

Oath-wise, the only thing I'd say for sure is NOT Vengeance, since you aren't going to be the BBEG-killing machine of the party. But I wouldn't say that Ancients gives you that much more over Devotion until later levels. On one hand, at lower levels all of the nice ensnaring options are good for your primary let the kids kill everything function, at higher levels you get some nice support in plant growth and protection from energy, Aura of Warding is good stuff, and you get turning fiends either way (which is good for OotA). BUT Devotion's spell list is pretty tempting too, especially as you level. Sanctuary helps if you're intent on keeping a buff spell running, and protection from evil and good is probably pretty handy for this campaign. I can't recall whether lesser restoration helps with madness, but if so, then YES, and beacon of hope makes you better at healing. So, your call.

That's all I can think of for now, and I need to go to bed. Good luck!

[OldTrees1]

Inspiring Leader is a very solid increase to the survivability of yourself and your allies.
Aura of Protection (aka Cha Mod) is nice for your allies but eventually becomes essential for the Paladin themselves.
Aura of Warding (aka Ancients Paladin) combined with Aura of Protection has made my party casually welcome Fireballing their own position.

[CTurbo]

I'd go variant Human LG Devotion Pally with Inspiring Leader at level 1 and 16 Dex, 16 Con, and 16 Cha to start. I'd rather dump Int than Str though. I'd bump Cha to 18 at level 4.

Keep in mind that with a <13 Str, you won't be able to multiclass at all. You have the right stat spread to go with the normal Str Paladin and still have a +2 in your Dex.

[SociopathFriend]

Just to be clear, those were the ability scores, not where they're placed; I just rolled the 8 first is all. I'll edit the OP to make that more easy to tell.



Running Out of the Abyss for kids sounds like... I'll say an idea I would not have, rather than a bad one. It could work with the right kids, I suppose.


I have no doubt he's got them terrified. In particular he likes doing what I dub, "DM s**t" like saying, "You feel like you're being watched" out of nowhere and then watching the players go nuts trying to figure out what it is. It's quite good for immersion but I'm curious myself how well they're taking it. Granted I don't know what "younger" children means. I frankly assume teens or below given that we have an ending time of 9PM. I'd have guessed high schoolers could stay out till 10 or 11.

[Kane0]

Ancients Pally with a dip into Warlock after 6-7 if you feel like it, Fey is great for flavor and Hexblade is the choice for optimization (although you might want to consider starting off with Warlock then the rest in Pally if you're looking at Hexblade). Keep up a high Str, Con and Cha or just Cha and Con if you're getting into Hexblade.

Those are good stats to start with, it gives you options when you hit level 4. Heavy Armor Mastery and Shield Master will keep you alive but not necessarily the others, Inspiring Leader works well for everybody and you can't go wrong with Lucky. Sentinel might be a good option under the right conditions, or if you're a dwarf (which also means extra HP) you can get the feat that lets you heal when you dodge if you think you're going to get targeted a lot.

[CTurbo]

Just to be clear, those were the ability scores, not where they're placed; I just rolled the 8 first is all. I'll edit the OP to make that more easy to tell.




I have no doubt he's got them terrified. In particular he likes doing what I dub, "DM s**t" like saying, "You feel like you're being watched" out of nowhere and then watching the players go nuts trying to figure out what it is. It's quite good for immersion but I'm curious myself how well they're taking it. Granted I don't know what "younger" children means. I frankly assume teens or below given that we have an ending time of 9PM. I'd have guessed high schoolers could stay out till 10 or 11.



Ah ok. I stick to my Devotion Pally recommendation. Variant Human with Inspiring Leader to start. 16 Str, 15 Dex, 16 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha. Go sword and board with the Dueling, Defense, or Protection fighting style. I'd probably go Dueling unless you just seriously want to protect the others all the time. AC will be 20 with plate and shield(21 if Defense style). Bump Wis at level 4.

[AttilatheYeon]

Human Crown Pally with either HAM or Inspiring Leader. HAM/Inspiring Leader will keep you alive until level 3. Crown will keep you alive and able to keep the rest of the party alive after that. Plus Crown pallies get Spiritual Guardians at 9. Giving you a second tanking button to push to keep aggro. Remember to use Aura of Vitality to heal. And Turn the Tide also gives you a second healing button. It's the most solid Heals/Tank subclass for pallies.

[Spore]

Granted I don't know what "younger" children means. I frankly assume teens or below given that we have an ending time of 9PM. I'd have guessed high schoolers could stay out till 10 or 11.

It's most like the point. You can easily play an Abyss themed adventure if you somewhat censor the torture porn and the other sins going on. Remember Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom received a PG-13 rating. And movies and media today are more brutal. And games like WoW have the same rating, and have their warlock characters summon Succubi and tormented Voidwalkers (basically negative energy with a body shaped like an elemental).


Now I have a rundown of the party and it's mainly Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians so far as I know.

Incentivize the rogues to hide, the other characters can take the abuse if they are not built horribly.

[Contrast]

Just to offer some contrary thoughts - if the DM is gonna focus fire you anyway you're not gonna stay up so try being unassuming instead and not give opponents a reason to focus fire you.

And by unassuming I mean glamour bard, the least unassuming of all classes. Your party is already set up for smashing face. Just hang out in the back hiding, not doing much damage and buff everyone else. Bonus points for human with inspiring leader (temp HP for days!).

[jaappleton]

I highly recommend going against Paladin and instead vote for a Cleric.

For the unaware, Nature’s lv6 is similar to Ancients lv6. However, Ancients only works against spells. Nature provides resistance regardless of the source.

Now, it’s not an aura like Ancients. But it’s got a lot more spells and spell slots, which your party is sorely lacking.

If UA is allowed, Order Cleric all the way. Granting your allies a free attack is amazing with those face wreckers.

Otherwise I suggest Life, Arcane, Nature, Tempest or Light. Light’s Warding Flare will be great for your party, and it can blast, and Radiance of the Dawn will stretch your spell slots a bit. I’m not familiar with the monsters in OotA, but remember that Radiance of the Dawn is specifically Sunlight, if that helps.

Even in Medium Armor with a Shield you’re quite capable of going into melee if you want. You can Bless the party, Light Domain gets Faerie Fire to deal with invisible creatures, and there’s the amazing ally-friendly Spirit Guardians at 5th Level.

I can’t recommend Cleric enough here.

[Laserlight]

I played a campaign as a gnome cleric 1/divination wizard X, usually stayed back and cast Bless, and got attacked four times during the campaign. And Shield took care of two of those.

[MrWesson22]

I would go hexblade 2/divine soul x with that group. They're lacking on spellcasters, and a twinned haste or greater invisibility with all those heavy hitters would be awesome.

You could still be in half plate with a shield, could still melee it up well with SCAG cantrips, and would do outstanding ranged damage with agonizing eldritch blast. Plus you get goodies like bless, spiritual weapon, and spirit guardians. Bless would be my go to concentration slot at low levels, then spirit guardians or the aforementioned twinned buffs.

[MagneticKitty]

Oath of devotion makes a good protector. You can take hits for the kids. Maybe get tough feat and focus con and cha
Con > Cha > str
Sword and board. Grab defense or protection fighting style
Be a tortle and take the tortle feat (when you make a dex save the rest of the team gets advantage on that save from the same effect.)

[JackPhoenix]

I second the cleric suggestion. It sounds like the party has enough melee power to share the spotlight, if you're playing with children, staying in background and keeping them healed and buffed sounds better. Not only it's a role missing from the party, by the sound of it, you want to optimize your character... that's not a bad thing, but children may not take being overshadowed well.

[jaappleton]

I second the cleric suggestion. It sounds like the party has enough melee power to share the spotlight, if you're playing with children, staying in background and keeping them healed and buffed sounds better. Not only it's a role missing from the party, by the sound of it, you want to optimize your character... that's not a bad thing, but children may not take being overshadowed well.

Exactly!

You shine by helping them be better. And they appreciate the heals and buffs. And you fulfill a sorely lacking party role, possibly even two roles (healer / blaster)

Everybody wins in multiple ways.

[darknite]

I would go hexblade 2/divine soul x with that group. They're lacking on spellcasters, and a twinned haste or greater invisibility with all those heavy hitters would be awesome.

You could still be in half plate with a shield, could still melee it up well with SCAG cantrips, and would do outstanding ranged damage with agonizing eldritch blast. Plus you get goodies like bless, spiritual weapon, and spirit guardians. Bless would be my go to concentration slot at low levels, then spirit guardians or the aforementioned twinned buffs.

Not a bad way to go for what you're looking for. Still makes you a little weak on hp, though. Perhaps do five levels of Paladin (eventually 6) and the rest Divine Soul? Gets you into heavy armor and provides lots of healing options + smite slots.

[WereRabbitz]

Fighter, Barb, Rogue.

Your missing Spells, Heals, and Range.

Fighters and Barbs can soak up hits well enough you don't need a third tank (paladin). I would go cleric. They will take down what ever your fighting if you keep them alive long enough. I would also tell all 3 of them to carry ranged weapons along.

Keep them blessed so they hit and spot heal as needed.

[djreynolds]

Half elf paladin, you will want darkvision.
I like vengeance paladin, but devotion is nice.
You have good stats and could leave dex at 13 for medium armor and stealth, or stay in heavy armor and let the rogue do his work.
Max out strength and charisma.
You will need aura of protection and immunity to fear and charm for everyone within 10ft is sweet.

[SociopathFriend]

I highly recommend going against Paladin and instead vote for a Cleric.

For the unaware, Nature’s lv6 is similar to Ancients lv6. However, Ancients only works against spells. Nature provides resistance regardless of the source.

Now, it’s not an aura like Ancients. But it’s got a lot more spells and spell slots, which your party is sorely lacking.

I can’t recommend Cleric enough here.


I second the cleric suggestion. It sounds like the party has enough melee power to share the spotlight, if you're playing with children, staying in background and keeping them healed and buffed sounds better. Not only it's a role missing from the party, by the sound of it, you want to optimize your character... that's not a bad thing, but children may not take being overshadowed well.

You make valid points. I will admit the Paladin was mainly for the plausible scenario of a kid wanting to 1v1 me for some silly reason as that's what occurred the last time I played with a younger player. It was also going to be invaluable for locating demons.
Cleric seems very viable as well. If so- do you have any suggestions to enhance your Nature Cleric bid? I will note that Nature Cleric gets to pick one person for resistance as a reaction, it's not party-wide which is why the aura seems better if it's likely the party will often be close to one another as mainly martial classes. That was my thought anyways.

That said, I only want to be optimized to keep them alive and successfully carrying through the campaign, the DM already texted me and pointed out some were a bit hobo-ish but he also insisted some were "trying to play". As he's a good DM- I wish to be helpful in getting them through the campaign. Often people getting stonewalled is simply not knowing how to act to get information, plot threads, etc.
Given that I thought I'd have to do a lot of the people-pleasing, I thought a role that benefited from a decent Charisma would be a good choice as I'm 50% sure that's one of the reasons he's eager to have an older player.
Cleric is fine too but I'll say again to be clear, the optimization is solely so I can try to keep the 'good' kids alive and playing; not to overshadow them. I'm fine with taking a backseat and letting them have their fun. If you think I can do so better as a Cleric then I'm open to change.

[Nidgit]

Honestly? Hill Dwarf Life Cleric with 15/15/18/8/16/13. You'd start with 13 HP and gain ~10 per level up, enough to keep you perfectly tanky in heavy armor while passing out buffs to everyone else. No one's going to be interested in PvP against the support and you won't be stealing any of their spotlight. Human with Resilience (Con) is a bit less tanky but better for concentration checks.

Of course, if you think your DM will go easier on the kids than you, you might be better off with something like Light, Tempest, or Forge Cleric for better defenses instead of heals. Another option could be Swords Bard or Bladesinger for improved AC tanking.

[jaappleton]

You make valid points. I will admit the Paladin was mainly for the plausible scenario of a kid wanting to 1v1 me for some silly reason as that's what occurred the last time I played with a younger player. It was also going to be invaluable for locating demons.
Cleric seems very viable as well. If so- do you have any suggestions to enhance your Nature Cleric bid? I will note that Nature Cleric gets to pick one person for resistance as a reaction, it's not party-wide which is why the aura seems better if it's likely the party will often be close to one another as mainly martial classes. That was my thought anyways.

That said, I only want to be optimized to keep them alive and successfully carrying through the campaign, the DM already texted me and pointed out some were a bit hobo-ish but he also insisted some were "trying to play". As he's a good DM- I wish to be helpful in getting them through the campaign. Often people getting stonewalled is simply not knowing how to act to get information, plot threads, etc.
Given that I thought I'd have to do a lot of the people-pleasing, I thought a role that benefited from a decent Charisma would be a good choice as I'm 50% sure that's one of the reasons he's eager to have an older player.
Cleric is fine too but I'll say again to be clear, the optimization is solely so I can try to keep the 'good' kids alive and playing; not to overshadow them. I'm fine with taking a backseat and letting them have their fun. If you think I can do so better as a Cleric then I'm open to change.

Alright. Couple ways to build a great Cleric for this.

1. Life. You don't really have to optimize much at all, you get a big boost to healing which everybody is always a fan of. Your Divine Strike is radiant, which is always great. Channel Divinity lets you mass heal as well, and starting at lv6, that's twice per short rest. That's a heck of a way to counter a Fireball.

2. Nature is a bit more defensive. Honestly the only features on it that I really like are the lv6 Resistance and the lv8 Divine Strike, since its a variable damage type. The bonus domain spell list is... kinda trash, honestly.

3. My overall recommendation is going to go to the Light Domain. Its Radiant and Fire focused. You gain some blaster spells. Which... the group needs. Light fulfills two roles: Healer and Blaster. Radiance of the Dawn, its channel divinity, is explicitly stated to be Sunlight. Aside from magic weapons, you're the only class capable of dishing out pure Sunlight before a 5th level spell (Dawn, from XGtE). And dealing with the Underdark, that's a fine thing to have. At lv6, you can use Warding Flare to turn enemy hits into misses. You still have the vanilla Cleric spells to heal, and heal quite well. And if you're concerned about Fireball overshadowing the kids... Well, when you're faced with 10+ enemies, the party needs to be kept alive. That's priority one.

4. I didn't recommend it before, but thinking a little harder about it, Lore Bard would do AMAZINGLY well here. Spells like Hypnotic Pattern, you can heal, and my goodness will everyone LOVE you for Cutting Words. I played a Lore Bard for quite awhile, and the party loved me because I turned party failure into successes and enemy successes into failures. Go Halfling with two levels of Diviner if you want to and really screw with the dice rolls :smallbiggrin: Plus you can be the Face better than anyone (except maybe Rogue), and you can cherry pick spells with Additional Magical Secrets at lv6 to shore up any weaknesses the party has. For the race, you can go Volo's Aasimar (I'd go Protector for the wings, to take allies up to vantage points or get them out of danger) or Mord's Eladrin, specifically Spring, which lets you use your Fey Step on an ally every short rest to teleport them 30ft, so long as you can see that point. So look through a keyhole and teleport the strong Barbarian behind the door so he can life the crossbeam holding the door closed, for example.

[CTurbo]

As much as I love the 5e Cleric, I think sticking with Paladin would be best for this situation. Devotion or Crown would be perfect. The Aura of Protection is just too awesome and too perfect for what you need.