Simulacrum - how does it work in combat? Is it really THAT good?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So let me get this straight, once I get Simulacrum I can spend 12 hours and a 1500 gold piece ruby casting it and get a 1/2 hit point mini-me running around that has all my characters spells and slots?

Assuming I have clothes and reasonable armor for it (go cheap studded leather armor!) are they any giveaways that reveal it really isn't my character?

And it just goes on my turn casting its own Polymorph spells or whatever it wants using up its non-replenishable spell slots?

RAW it looks like if the mini-me can't meets a near person it can't learn the name of the NPC? Is that just Rules as Intended just meaning it does not learn more spells?

I suppose if it could come up with a big ruby it could make a 1/2 hit point copy of itself again?

Good thing they threw in that 1500 gp limitation....now only to find a ruby mine....

[dejarnjc]

I think you've got the crux of it. It's definitely a super powerful spell.


RAW it looks like if the mini-me can't meets a near person it can't learn the name of the NPC? Is that just Rules as Intended just meaning it does not learn more spells?

RAI, I assume the line was put in there to make sure the simulacrum doesn't grow beyond what it was when it was first created. I kind of think of it as a computer that has info uploaded to it only during the casting of the spell. I'd probably play it where a Simulacrum has pretty severe memory limitations. It obviously CAN remember though since it can obey verbal instructions and act upon them.

[darknite]

Sounds about right. You can use Wish later on for a free version with a casting time of one action. About the only down side is they share attunement slots with your PC so you can't load them up with extra attunable items for an extra special death star.

Best of all its' a creature so you can True Polymorph it to a CR of comparable level (your PC's level) and leave them that way permanently after 1 hr. This usually means they can't cast spells (since they become the new creature) but you can make some very tough compadres with CR 17+. And, even though they can't be healed you can polymorph them again if you want, and refresh their HP. Finally, if the polymorphed form is killed, well you get a 17th+ level wizard at half health!

[Doug Lampert]

So let me get this straight, once I get Simulacrum I can spend 12 hours and a 1500 gold piece ruby casting it and get a 1/2 hit point mini-me running around that has all my characters spells and slots?

Assuming I have clothes and reasonable armor for it (go cheap studded leather armor!) are they any giveaways that reveal it really isn't my character?

And it just goes on my turn casting its own Polymorph spells or whatever it wants using up its non-replenishable spell slots?

RAW it looks like if the mini-me can't meets a near person it can't learn the name of the NPC? Is that just Rules as Intended just meaning it does not learn more spells?

I suppose if it could come up with a big ruby it could make a 1/2 hit point copy of itself again?

Good thing they threw in that 1500 gp limitation....now only to find a ruby mine....

At minimum level it can't copy itself, because when it was made, you were missing the slot that you use to cast that spell.

However, if it has the slot to cast the spell itself, then when it makes a simulacrum, it doesn't copy itself, it copies YOU, that gives the new copy full slots and the same half of your HP. Note that AL has nerfed this.

The spell doesn't get really abusive till you get wish and can avoid that pesky time requirement and ruby needed. If you can make one simulacrum with the actual spell, then that simulacrum has a level 9 slot and wish available, and it can make another copy of you, which has a level 9 slot and wish available (because you do), and has half your HP (because it's a copy of you, not a copy of the copy).

[darknite]

At minimum level it can't copy itself, because when it was made, you were missing the slot that you use to cast that spell.

However, if it has the slot to cast the spell itself, then when it makes a simulacrum, it doesn't copy itself, it copies YOU, that gives the new copy full slots and the same half of your HP. Note that AL has nerfed this.

The spell doesn't get really abusive till you get wish and can avoid that pesky time requirement and ruby needed. If you can make one simulacrum with the actual spell, then that simulacrum has a level 9 slot and wish available, and it can make another copy of you, which has a level 9 slot and wish available (because you do), and has half your HP (because it's a copy of you, not a copy of the copy).

I go along with the AL nerf on this one, just for simplicity's sake.

[Sigreid]

Sounds about right. You can use Wish later on for a free version with a casting time of one action. About the only down side is they share attunement slots with your PC so you can't load them up with extra attunable items for an extra special death star.

Best of all its' a creature so you can True Polymorph it to a CR of comparable level (your PC's level) and leave them that way permanently after 1 hr. This usually means they can't cast spells (since they become the new creature) but you can make some very tough compadres with CR 17+. And, even though they can't be healed you can polymorph them again if you want, and refresh their HP. Finally, if the polymorphed form is killed, well you get a 17th+ level wizard at half health!

Where are you getting the atonement slot thing?

[darknite]

Where are you getting the atonement slot thing?

Sorry, forgot, that's an AL thing. No worries for private games, subject to DM's interp.

[Sigreid]

Sorry, forgot, that's an AL thing. No worries for private games, subject to DM's interp.

That's why I thought. AL special rules can complicate rule discussions. Not that they shouldn't be brought up. Enough people play AL for that to be valuable conversation as well, as long as we know that's what were talking about. 😊

[Deathtongue]

Having used it and seen it used a few times in Adventurer's League, possibly a best-case scenario for it with an abundance of magical items, loot, and one-shots?

It's good. It's damn good. But it doesn't turn automatically turn a fair encounter into a joke like I've seen with Animate Dead or Conjure Animals or Conjure Fey or Planar Binding or (from the handful of Tier 4 games I've seen) Shapechange or Wish. A Simulacrum tossing out additional fireballs and cone of colds is some frightful firepower, but that half-hp really hurts them. A 50 - 65 hp-simulacrum whom most DMs aren't going to let you heal isn't a recipe for long-term survivability. The best you can really do is to make a Simulacrum of the Ranger or Fighter-Archer or Rogue and hope for some spare magical item donations. Again, damn good, but not encounter-wrecking. I suspect it'd be most powerful making copies of the Moon Druid of all things, getting around the survivability issues.

...of course if you're using the Simulacrum as an additional platform for, say, Conjure Fey + Kerred + 3 Galeb Duhrs then all bets are off.

[Sigreid]

Having used it and seen it used a few times in Adventurer's League, possibly a best-case scenario for it with an abundance of magical items, loot, and one-shots?

It's good. It's damn good. But it doesn't turn automatically turn a fair encounter into a joke like I've seen with Animate Dead or Conjure Animals or Conjure Fey or Planar Binding or (from the handful of Tier 4 games I've seen) Shapechange or Wish. A Simulacrum tossing out additional fireballs and cone of colds is some frightful firepower, but that half-hp really hurts them. A 50 - 65 hp-simulacrum whom most DMs aren't going to let you heal isn't a recipe for long-term survivability. The best you can really do is to make a Simulacrum of the Ranger or Fighter-Archer or Rogue and hope for some spare magical item donations. Again, damn good, but not encounter-wrecking. I suspect it'd be most powerful making copies of the Moon Druid of all things, getting around the survivability issues.

...of course if you're using the Simulacrum as an additional platform for, say, Conjure Fey + Kerred + 3 Galeb Duhrs then all bets are off.

I've always thought it would be good on a Warlock since they can stay at range and many of their fun powers don't use a spell slot.

[Deathtongue]

I thought so, too. But all the same, the whole 'it has 50 - 60 hit points and most DMs aren't going to let you heal it' turns out to be a much bigger liability than you'd think. You don't realize how much you need to heal at Tier 2/3 until you get into a scrap with some fire giants and hellhounds.

Again, it's damn good, but the durability is a huge limiting factor for how good it can be. It's just not as encounter-wrecking as having a Bheur Hag or a Kerred on Planar Binding.

I suspect this might change with a simulacrum of a Moon druid (which I've never seen) or something with True Polymorph/Shapechange. But as-is? It's not that bad. I wouldn't cry any tears if it was nerfed or banned, but I also don't think it's the most balance-ruining RAW/RAI thing I've seen at the table.

[Sigreid]

In the past I've mostly used it for a competent, intelligent, trustworthy entity to watch over my properties in my home/safe zone.

Edit, a celestial warlock with their temporary hp power may be the ideal selection.

[Davrix]

After reading the AL nerf to it. I feel like that's a knee jerk to players who just abused it to much. That being said at a private table who cares what AL does unless your DM wants to follow those rules.

Personally myself and another DM just always went by the rule of you got 1 always anyway. That one could copy you the next day but the moment you use the spell or it uses the spell again the first copy vanishes leaving only the new copy in its place. This stops most of the really cheesy aspects of the spell. The wish nerf, I just kind of feel like yea I get it but also like it takes all the fun out of being a high lv wizard. yours suppose to kind of break reality and bend the rules at that lv as a wizard. That was sort of always the point behind the class.

That being said once again, it depends on how you use it. Talking to Dm's on abusing the wish spell before the game and what you intend to do with it tends to lead to better results then springing up game breaking wishes during a session. More then once I've come to a fellow DM with an Idea about using the wish copy combo and after a few tweaks I get the go ahead and we both have a chuckle on how silly its going to be in the next high level game we run.

So instead of the AL ruling here is what we do at my table. Feel free to use it or not up to you.

If you try to cast a 2nd copy of Simulacrum, the first copy vanishes in place of the new one.
If the Simulacrum uses the wish spell for anything besides duplicating another spell, roll a D100. On a 50 or lower you and any future Simulacrum cannot cast the wish spell until a year and a day have passed.