Considering the New Shadar-Kai

[Sception]

I was a big fan of the 4th edition version of the Shadowfell, and the 4e versions Shadar-Kai and the Raven Queen in particular. I know, I know, they're weren't popular with everyone, but taste is subjective so there's not much point litigating it. I'm not looking to argue in this thread over whether the 4e versions of these things were good or bad, or whether the new versions are or are not improvements. Rather, I'm just trying to look at how exactly they've changed, where that puts the new version of Shadar-kai in particular, and some ideas for expanding on them.

To be clear, and to get this out of the way right up front, I do think the new version of the Shadar-Kai & Raven Queen are objectively lacking in at least one area compared to the 4e version - detail. By the end of 4e, the Shadar-Kai, their culture, their hierarchy, their lands, their relationship to their god and the shadowy world they occupied, that was all very fleshed out. In particular, "The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond" box set did a lot of this work, and was one of relatively few stand out setting/lore supplements in an edition rather lacking in that regard, harkening back to old AD&D box sets.

The 5e versions are brand new, only just introduced in a book mostly dedicated to other things, so of course they're less fleshed out. I'm not at all claiming that this is a failing or an indication of lack of quality, there's definitely some neat ideas going on in the new stuff. I'm just saying that there isn't all that much to go on for them, yet.

And unfortunately, you can't really port forward the old 4e lore to fill out the currently empty spaces, because, and here's the big point of this first post,

The 5e Raven Queen and Shadar-Kai are not the 4e (or 3e) versions.

They're not an adaptation or evolution, either. It would be a stretch to say they were even 'inspired by' the previous versions. What we're looking at here is a reboot of the "In Name Only" variety.

And while this is true for the Raven Queen, it is *especially* true for the Shadar-Kai, who have even less in common with the 4e version than the 4e version had with what the Shadar-Kai originally where in 3e. Where the 5e Raven Queen is 'fundamentally different with some superficial similarities', The 5e version of the Shadar-Kai are are from top to bottom practically the outright opposite of their previous selves.

The Raven QueenI'll start by looking at the raven queen, since there's a few more at least superficial similarities here, and since the Raven Queen is less of a direct gameplay element from a player's perspective. A character may or may not follow the Raven Queen, but that's kind of purely a background element and there's not much impact there in terms of mechanics.

The most obvious difference is that the 4e Raven Queen was a major deity, while the 5e Raven Queen is a powerful but non-deific offshoot of the elven pantheon. But that's a difference without all that much distinction, so instead lets list out some general discriptors:

4e Raven Queen:

Helped overthrow Nerull
Other gods betrayed her by withholding much of Nerull's power
So she exiled herself to the Shadowfell in protest/to plot against them
Rival to Orcus, who seeks her dominion over Death
Works equally well as patron, antagonist, or sidequest
Ruler of the Shadowfell, associated with:
Death
Souls (shepherding them to the hereafter)
Winter/Cold
Fate
Ravens


5e Raven Queen

Tried to force her way into elven pantheon to avert civil war
failed & ended up in the shadowfell
elven gods stole their peoples' memories of her
between that & the fall to shadowfell, she was left broken & half sane
Rival to Vecna, who seeks the secrets hidden in her memory collection
works best as sidequest
Prisoner of the Shadowfell, associated with:
Memory (particularly, and with no clear reason for the preference, sad memories)
Souls (in particular stealing them to collect their memories)
Ravens


Not all that much overlap there. However, there are some parallels. Both have some association with souls & death magic, though the 5e version's association is much more limited & tenuous. Both have beef with other gods who wronged them, and both are distracted from this grudge by a particular rivalry with a powerful entity associated with necromancy, Orcus in 4e and Vecna in 5e.

Both are obviously associated with Ravens, but the 5e version in particular goes a bit further with that. 4e Raven Queen's association with the birds came more from her being a Death goddess and ravens being known as scavengers, and from her being a Winter goddess and ravens being non-migratory birds still active & present in winter months. 5e Raven Queen takes on more Raven-Like habits and behavior in the way she likes to collect memories like baubles or trinkets. For the 5e Raven Queen, being associated with Ravens is like the primary foundation of her character, basically starting with the name and working backwards.

In terms of their place in the campaign though, the 4e version manages to be a lot more versatile, despite being a lot more defined. As the goddess of death and enemy of Orcus and the undead she works as a patron for individual party members or even the entire party. As a figure scheming to gain power over undeath and have revenge on the other gods who slighted her, she could just as easily work as a campaign's chief Antagonist, in the vein of Tiamat or Lolth. And as the goddess of, effectively, the underwolrd, she could also work as a friend or foe in a one off sidequest to barter for a soul a la Orpheus style myths.

The 5e Raven Queen, as a thief and horder of both memories and souls, works very easily in that last role. But as a figure somehow simultaneously less benevolent and less malevolent than her 4e incarnation, one lacking in both explicit motivations beyond the compulsive hording of sad memories and in the sanity needed to coherently pursue any additional motivations the DM might ascribe to her, it's a lot harder to see her working as either a patron or a more long term antagonist. The 5e Raven Queen is just a much more passive figure than the 4e version. By her nature, her attention is pointed backwards at memories rather than forwards at fate, and her disposition is defined by sorrow and regret rather than by ambition. I'm not saying the difference makes her an inherently worse character, just a far less dynamic one.

....

From a player perspective, there's not a lot of reason to follow the 5e Raven Queen apart from out of obligation if you choose to play a Shadar-Kai. She doesn't seem to seek followers outside of the Shadar-Kai, or offer anything to anyone who might want to follow her. Even the Shadar-Kai aren't really given any reason to want to serve her apart from just sort of having to because of the nature of their existence. There's definitely room to expand here, and I'll get into some ideas on how to do so in a later post, but there's not much in the way of reasons for player characters to follow or revere her or engage with her in any way apart from if the DM decides to directly bring her into the campaign as an npc.

The Shadar-Kai
In 3e, Shadar-Kai were fey creatures that suffered from a cursed link to the plain of shadow. This manifested as a constant pull on their souls that they had to resist at all times. In both 4e and 5e, the Shadowfell has an inherent soul-draining atmosphere similar in effect to the 3e Shadar-Kai's curse, though the causes for this are different. In 4e, it was because the Shadowfell was the realm through which dead souls passed to the beyond, and being that near the boarders between life and death and true death had a sort of gravitic effect on mortal souls. Just keeping your soul attached to your body was emotionally exhausting effort. In 5e, this seems to be more esoteric than narrative, a byproduct of the Shadowfell being adjacent to the negative energy plane which is anathema to mortal lives and souls by its elemental nature. All versions of Shadar-Kai are heavily characterized by their attachment to their consistently Shadowy and variably Fell homelands, but the nature of that characterization couldn't be more different.

4e Shadar-Kai were cursed humans, and in that sense outliers from the 3e fey or 5e elves, but while they had a different history they were in nature and disposition very similar to their 3e predecessors. In both 3e and 4e, the Shadar-Kai survived by actively fighting against the drain on their souls, by driving themselves to extremes of emotion and sensation to keep their soul focused on the here and now. So strong emotions, an emphasis on personal expression, always seeking new experiences, new rivalries, etc. Not only do they experience emotions, those emotions are deliberately heightened dramatically to offset the Shadow/Shadowfell's influence, to the point of sometimes becoming dangerously uncontrollable when visiting other planes. In fashion, they favored tattoos, scarification, and piercings, as both the personal expression and the physical pain could help keep their souls attached to their bodies. They were arguably more punk in style than the goth or emo reputation they acquired in some circles, though admittedly that aspect of their description didn't always come out in the artwork depicting them.

5e Shadar-Kai are exactly the opposite. Rather than rebelling against their environment, they exemplify it. Drab, dull, lacking in emotion, hiding expressionless faces behind equally expressionless masks. This isn't at all a bad or invalid direction to go with characterizing a Shadowfell race, but it lacks the contrast and tension that defined the earlier versions. The Shadowfell does not pull on the 5e Shadar-Kai's souls, partly because their souls are directly linked to the raven queen - returning to her upon death to be reborn rather than following the normal fate of mortal souls in whatever world they find themselves in - but also because their souls already seem dampened and muted to the point of there hardly being anything to pull on in the first place.

The 5e Shadar-Kai are much more directly tied to their version of the Raven Queen, and those ties further impact their disposition. The 4e Raven Queen instilled an ambitious, mercenary attitude in her Shadar-Kai, reflecting her own ambition and making them more active, eager servants. The 5e Raven Queen imposes her own much more passively curious disposition on the 5e version. One of the monsters is even described as sometimes following adventurers in hiding, just watching and studying how they react to the misfortunes imposed by its aura, as if curious about these strange "emotions" they've heard so much about.

A poster in another thread mentioned 5e raven queen reminding them of their mental health issues. If I were to armchair diagnose the Shadar-Kai, 3e & 4e SK would represent bi-polar disorder, with extreme highs and lows, while 5e SK would be a more chronic uni-polar depression, low for so long that it becomes deadening and emotion of any kind becomes difficult to even comprehend.

Again, either characterization works for a Shadowfell Race, but I will say that, much as the 5e Raven Queen is a much more passive figure, so too are the 5e Shadar Kai a much more passive people. They collect memories for their queen not because they are described as having any interest in them, but because she wants them to. They lack motivations or reasons to adventure of their own. Their emotionlessness risks coming off as dull or engaged at the table, and their disinterest in individual expression risks 5e Shadar-Kai characters being somewhat bland and forgettable. They also lack the obvious motivations to become an adventure that 3e Shadar-Kai had in their quest to find a cure for their people's curse, or that 3e and 4e Shadar-Kai shared in the need to constantly seek out new experiences to help keep their souls attached to their bodies.

This doesn't mean 5e Shadar-Kai can't be an interesting, motivated characters, just that you as the player will need to put a bit more thought into them because their default description doesn't set them up for a life of adventure in the same way.

Ancilary Lore Elements - Sorrowsworn & Nagpas
Shadar-Kai are not alone in serving the Raven Queen. Both in 4e and in 5e, she has more powerful supernatural creatures serving her interests as well, but the natures of these creatures are extremely different.

In 4e, Sorrowsworn were powerful divine servants of the Raven Queen, equivalent to celestiels or fiends in service to other deities, which the Raven Queen created by elevating her most favored servants, Shadar-Kai or otherwise - though most were originally Shadar-Kai. Thematically, the Sorrow-Sworn were basically grim reaper figures, direct manifestations of the death goddess's power sent to collect the souls of those who defied her jurisdiction. Mechanically, in campaigns where the Raven Queen was an antagonist, they served as powerful lieutennants, boss monsters at high levels and common enemies at the very highest levels. The most powerful of these was a literal demigod, said to be the Raven Queen's own son. In campaigns where the raven queen was a patron, they could deliver communications to the party for her, and at higher levels you could aspire to become one. There were even explicit epic destiny rules to do exactly that.

In 5e, Sorrowsworn are much weaker creatures that have nothing explicitly to do with the Raven Queen other than both being found in the Shadowfell. They're interesting monsters, not bad ideas at all, but not really relevant to this thread in any way. Rather, the role of 'more powerful servant of the Raven Queen' in 5e is filled, unwillingly and possibly unwittingly, by Nagpas.

Nagpas are Skeksis from the Dark Crystal, in both looks and disposition. Exactly 13 in number, they are the Shadar-Kai wizards who attempted to usurp the Raven Queen in her moment of ascendance, leading to the fall of their queen & entire race. To punish them, she made them hunched & birdlike in appearance, but more significant than the physical changes is the more esoteric nature of their somewhat ironic curse. Since their lust for arcane knowledge and power led to the destruction of their civilization, the Raven Queen cursed them to only be able to gain such power and knowledge by picking through the wreckage of fallen civilizations.

Since, for all their physical changes, they're still a cabal of near-epic level wizards, they're quite capable of deliberately manipulating politics or directly causing magical cataclysms leading to the collapse of civilizations for the express purpose of collecting new knowledge from the remains, making them good campaign antagonists with both the motivation and the power to concoct villainous plots and conspiracies. Like a typical Liche, but with friends, and a built in answer to the 'why are they bothering with villainous plots that risk exposing themselves when they could be devoting themselves to their research' question that most liches would prefer you quietly refrain from asking.

Nagpa's are despised exiles from Shadar-Kai society who do not serve the Raven Queen directly, but when their plots do lead to calamity, the Shadar-Kai are always there to collect the souls of the fallen and memories of loss and despair that are abundant in such disasters, and in this way the Nagpa's serve the Raven Queen indirectly. For their part, much as they might hate the Raven Queen, they fear her more, and avoid her servants, taking on "cringing, fawning" attitudes in their presence, further bringing in the Skeksi inspiration.

As monsters & antagonists, the Nagpa's are very cool, and I like them a lot. But as exiles, they don't fill the gap left in the Shadar-Kai hierarchy by the loss of sorrowsworn. No powerful, semi-divine servants of the Raven Queen's interests. Nothing for Shadar-Kai characters & npcs to aspire to become.

So, To Summarize

The Raven Queen, and especially the Shadar-Kai, are very different in 5e. The punk aspect of the Shadar-Kai, of a people living at 110% in defiance of an entire world trying to strip them of their very souls, is completely gone. The stern goddess of winter, fate, and death - basically a D&D version of the third part of the classic maid/mother/crone earth-goddes trinity - is likewise gone.

In their place we have a morose semi-goddess whose very existence is a shifting prison of fragmented memories and flitting shadows, served by a somber people who embody the soul-draining apathy of the Shadowfell rather than rebelling against it.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I might have a personal preference, but it's just that. Rather, I'm saying that just because you liked the Raven Queen or the Shadar-Kai in 4e doesn't mean you'll have any interest in them in 5e. The contrary is also true, if you didn't like them in 4e, you might actually like them now.

But what can you actually do with the Shadar-Kai as a player race, mechanically? If you do like the tidbits of lore we got in the Tome of Foes, how can you expand on that, and if you don't what are some ways you could adapt the 5e lore to get back a bit of the 4e feel without too dramatically contradicting the 5e canon?

I'll get into some thoughts along these lines in the next couple posts. At some point. Eventually.

[Sception]

5e Shadar Kai

5th edition Shadar-Kai as a Player Race

Once you've justified shadar-kai PCs in your game, assuming you have, how do the 5th edition shadar-kai actually fare as a player race? Well, here's how the racial traits panned out:


size medium, speed 30, languages elven & common - all standard
+2 dex, as all elves - favoring light armor & ranged or finesse weapons
keen senses - like every elf, they come trained in the most important skill
trance - rest while on watch with that free perception training
fey ancestry - protection from uncommon but debilitation charm & sleep conditions
darkvision 60ft - good for sneaky types, and again keeping watch
+1 con - every class likes con, though for most it's third priority at best
Raven Queen's Blessing - a nice teleport & damage resist power, but on a slow refresh timer, see the book for the actual wording
necrotic resistance - necrotic damage isn't exactly uncommon, especially in the shadowfell, so this is welcome.


Sadly, they've been hit by a pretty painful downgrade from the UA version. Their racial teleport was limited to once per long rest instead of long-or-short rest, and simultaneously the damage reduction aspect was pushed back to level three. A range extension is not enough to offset these negatives. In addition they lost their bonus cantrip, and their secondary stat boost went from Cha to Con.

From a narrative & conceptual perspective the switch from Cha to Con isn't invalid. Apart from the boost to dexterity, there isn't really any consistent secondary stat to the shadar-kai through their editions, and the characterization of the 5e shadar-kai seems much more subdued and withdrawn, lacking the flashier and more expressive elements of shadar-kai culture from previous editions that might have justified a charisma boost, though such elements could certainly be added back in by designers later if they wished. I'm not sure there's a strong narrative or thematic reason for them to get a con boost. An int boost might have been better, given the Raven Queen's arcane associations and the role wizards play in their background, but that's not to say constitution is wrong by any extent.

What it does mean is that shadar-kai are less well suited to classes like shadow sorcerer or hexblade warlocks than the UA version, and the lack of any mental stat bonus gives them a slightly harder time picking up shadow magicky mechanics from class features that are a bit lacking from their racial traits after the removal of the bonus cantrip and teleport power shifting from a short rest to a long rest cooldown.

That said, every character likes dexterity for initiative and common saving throws, and every character likes constitution for hit points. The published shadar-kai aren't a top tier choice in terms of optimization for as many classes as their UA version was, but they're not exactly terrible at anything.

.................

Choosing a Class for a Shadar-Kai Character

From a mechanical optimization perspective, you want to pick a class where the primary stat (ie, the one used for your round-by-round attack rolls or save DCs) is in something you get a racial stat boost in. If your game rolls for stats, and you roll at least one 16+, you can kind of ignore this, but as a rule of thumb it's highly advisable to start with at least a +3 stat modifier in your primary stat, and racial bonuses are the only way to do that using 5e's default stat array or point buy methods. To be clear, you can make a +2 starting stat mod work, and the difference isn't too noticeable on any given role, but when it's your primary stat you're adding that bonus to nearly every roll you make round after round, day after day, so even a small difference does indeed add up. While no classes have constitution as a primary stat, almost all weapon using classes can use finesse weapons to make dexterity their primary stat.

Looking at thematics, 5e shadar-kai are basically "shadow elves". Like elves, they're agile, magical, and aloof, but those traits are all heavily influenced by their connection to the Shadowfell and the Raven queen. Their agility becomes stealthiness, with a preference for strange & unusual weapons. Their magic becomes dark and mysterious. Their aloofness becomes sorrowful or eerie. The racial traits bring some of that across, but a bit more weakly than the UA version did, so unless you're deliberately playing against type your class features should make up some of that difference.

Keeping in mind these competing mechanical and thematic priorities, this class shadar-kai mini class guide will be using the following color-coding system:


BLUE - Blue indicates a class or subclass that is both a good mechanical match for the shadar-kai's stat modifiers and racial traits and good thematic fit with class features and flavor that bring out your characters inner shadow-elf. These classes are great choices for a shadar-kai character right out of the box, no extra effort required
GREEN - Green indicates a class or subclass that is a good match for the shadar-kai's stat modifiers and racial traits, but with features and flavor that don't particularly enhance the racial flavor of the shadar-kai. While these are fine choices for your character, you might want to take some extra steps to get your flavor across. Suggestions for doing so will eventually be added below.
PURPLE - Purple indicates a class or subclass that is a good thematic fit for a shadar-kai character, but your racial stat mods and features aren't doing you any favors. Alternatively, your racial features might align well, but the class or subclass might be kind of lackluster to begin with. These classes can still absolutely make for fun and engaging shadar-kai characters, but you might want to take extra steps to shore up or play around your weaknesses, such as focusing your spell selection on battlefield control or buffing spells, which don't generally depend on spell attack rolls or saving throws.
RED - Red indicates a class or subclass that is neither a great mechanical fit nor a particularly thematic choice. Sure, with some effort you can still make a shadar-kai character with one of these classes work, but unless you're deliberately setting out to play against type why would you bother?


Each class will get a general rating & brief write up, while subclasses that vary from the overall class rating or are in some other way notable will get an individual mention below their parent class.

Martial Classes (barbarians, fighters, monks, and rogues)
Most martial-type classes can use dexterity as their primary stat due to finesse weapons, and so most are decent fits for shadar-kai mechanically. On the other hand, they're generally lacking in shadow magic flavor, so there are a lot of green options here. That said, it's worth remembering that the Shadar-Kai are not without martial flavor. In 4e their warriors were known for pushing themselves to physical extremes and training in difficult, exotic weapons. The lore directly supporting that is fairly minimal in 5e so far, but still implied by their monster stat blocks, 2/3 of which favor melee combat and one of which even fights with the infamous spiked chain, though that's not presently an official player option. Still, if you choose a martial class, you'll want to look for subclasses and other character options that help convey your shadow-magic flavor.


BARBARIAN - In general, not a good choice for shadar-kai. Unlike most other weapon using classes, the barbarian's class features mostly lock them into using strength rather than dexterity as their primary stat. The con bonus make shadar-kai among the best elf subraces for the class, but that's not a high bar to clear. Furthermore, the barbarian's special abilities are derived from a super-human outpouring of emotion - anger specifically - where 5e shadar-kai are generally described as having very limited emotional affect.

Zealot - the Zealot is a bit of an exception to other barbarians, in that their rage is not an outpouring of unquenchable inner anger but rather of devotion to their deity, and while shadar-kai aren't especially angry, they are devoted to the Raven Queen. The mechanics of the Zealot subclass, particularly the bit about revival spells not requiring gold investment as their patron collects their souls and freely sends them back to the world to continue the service, is a particularly good fit for shadar-kai fluff. The Zealot's mechanics are still a bit lacking in shadow magic flavor, so it might be worth burning a feat choice at something that gets some of that back, but the first priority of any shadar-kai zealot will be shoring up their mediocre starting strength as quickly as possible. Avenger was a particularly good fit for shadar-kai in 4e, and if you're looking for the 5e version, this is where you'll find it.



FIGHTER - the 5e Fighter is a particularly broad class, both in terms of mechanics and flavor, but the general unifying theme that bring those disparate character archetypes together is that the Fighter is 5e's weapon master class. As long as the weapons you choose to master are either ranged or finesse, you're good to go mechanically, at least. And the bonus ASIs will help you shore up any lacking flavor with some fluffy feat choices.

Arcane Archer - a nice thematic fit that gets in some magical feel, particularly with that shadow arrow. Unfortunately, the subclass itself is kind of lackluster power-wise, the neat special arrows feature is painfully limited in number of uses, and most of them rely on int-based save DCs, which isn't ideal for you. Again, a strong thematic fit, the shadow-arrow in particular is cool, so it can be worth trying to make it work.
Battle Master - Still lacking in shadow magic, but the Battle Master's maneuvers are one of the best representations in 5e of 'strange and exotic weapon styles' bit that has in the past been part of shadar-kai's characterization, so it gets the nod here. But only barely, you still might want to look into spending one of those bonus fighter ASIs on shoring up your shadar-kai flavor. It's also one of the strongest and most engaging fighter subclasses, so definitely an option to consider.
Eldritch Knight - The strong default mechanical fit of the fighter, but with a touch of magical flair, so of course this is going to be blue so long as you pick up some good thematic choices from Eldritch Knight. Abjuration and Evocation aren't the fluffiest schools for you, particularly evocation given your lack of int bonus for save DCs and spell attack rolls, so your rarer open slots will matter a lot here. As with Magic Initiatie, I recommend the minor illusion cantrip and find familiar for a pet raven, as both are useful, versatile, and flavorful, and once you can get an open second level spell choice, Shadow Blade is great.


MONK - +2 Dex alone makes monk a decent choice for shadar-kai, and the +1 con won't go to waste either, even if +1 wisdom might have been preferred. Thematically, the monk's traditional quiet stoicism fits well enough with the shadar-kai's natural stealthiness and subdued emotional affect. And monk is one of the best classes for 'exotic fighting styles', plus the slightly supernatural flavor of some monk abilities help get a touch of magical flair in, if not quite enough for me to rate the whole class blue.

Shadow Monk - This is it. THE BEST class/subclass for players looking to simultaneously maximize the mechanical utility and racial flavor of their shadar-kai character. Shadow monk has it all. Mechanically they're one of the better subclasses of a decent dex-based class, exceptional scouts, solid skirmishing melee damage dealers. Thematically, they combine creepy flavor, exotic fighting style, and explicit shadow magic. Pass without trace, in addition to being among the best stealth spells in the game, also fits in thematically, as it's could be used by small teams of shadar-kai to venture out into the world unseen in search of curios for their queen. There are other class options that fit shadar-kai characters as well for mechanical optimization or narrative flavor, but not at the same time.
Four Elements - it's kind of an old chestnut that this subclass is bad, and yeah, it kind of is. Plus it's more dependant on wisdom than most other monk subclasses so the lack of a racial bonus there hurts more. And it's flashy and showy in ways that don't fit with the shadar-kai's more subdued nature.
Sun Soul - unlike Four Elements, this subclass isn't bad in and of itself, but it again cares more about wisdom than you'd like, and the flavor is 100% the opposite of what we're looking for, here.


ROGUE - 5e's other 'ninja class' besides the monk, rogue is another natural mechanical fit for shadar-kai characters. MToF characterizes 5e shadar-kai as thieves and assassins, stealing keepsakes, memories, and souls for their dark queen's collection, so there's extra thematic justification there. The lack of shadow magical goodness baked into the parent class stops me from rating the whole class blue, but only just barely.

Arcane Trickster - As with Eldritch Knight, a bit of extra magic flavor earns the blue rating here. If anything, arcane trickster is an even better fit, since the preferred schools of enchantment and illusion brings in a lot more shadow magic flavor than the knight's abjuration and evocation. As with eldritch knight, the lack of racial intelligence bonus does sting a bit, so you'll want to take that into account in spell selection. Otherwise, be sure to grab find familiar for a pet raven, pick up shadow blade as soon as you can grab it, maybe dip a couple levels of bladesinger wizard, and you're good to go.
Assassin. Sadly this is a very mundane assassin, not the shadow-magic infused concept sometimes tied to that name in D&D. The creepier flavor and theme of staying concealed until striking a fatal blow before disappearing again is enough to bump it up to a blue rating. I could definitely see shadar-kai assassins being despatched by the raven queen to retrieve souls she desires from their mortal souls. This only barely gets the blue rating though, due to lack of magical flavor, so as with the Battlemaster fighter a multiclass dip or feat choice to bring in some of that flavor would be welcome.
Thief - more than assassins, the Raven Queen's shadar-kai servants are described as thieves, taking not lives or riches but irreplaceable curios of great emotional significance. A lost love's favour, or a deceased child's favorite toy. Given that characterization, Thief Rogues in particular are good thematic fits, enough so to bump their rating up to blue, though again the subclass is still a bit lacking in shadow magic flavor, so a feat or multiclass dip would help there.




Nature Classes (Druid & Ranger)
These may seem like a bit of stretch for Shadar-Kai, as Druids and Rangers are typically associated with the the life, vivacity, and green places of the Natural World and Feywild, not the life-draining gloom of the Shadowfell. But for Shadar-Kai, the Shadowfell is their natural world, and their affinity with shadow magic a reflection of their deep spiritual bond to that environment, the same as any other type of elf has to the natural places they call home. In that light, classes that draw their power from nature can make sense for Shadar-Kai, as they're just drawing their power from a different, darker natural environment. In general, though, the actual abilities of these classes again lean towards green places, and the lack of Wisdom bonus doesn't help matters. That said, there are
a few stand out Ranger options.


DRUID - Again, being in tune with nature, where nature meant to imply leafy green forests full of abundant life and critters, really isn't a great thematic fit for shadar-kai, who hail from a considerably darker and more sterile environment, and the lack of a racial bonus to wisdom isn't helping this combo out on a thematic level, either. The ability to turn into a raven is pretty cool, at least, so it's not utterly without merit, but yeah, very much red overall.

Circle of Dreams - that said, if you really want to play a shadar-kai druid, circle of dreams is probably the closest fit thematically, as the Raven Queen is said to appear to people in their dreams, so there's a bit of correlation there. And there's some teleport features. Your racial traits still aren't doing you many favors, here.


RANGER - Here we've got a much better mechanical fit at least. Whether arching or dual wielding, most rangers prefer dexterity for their attack stat, so you've got that covered, and the con again never goes to waste, though as with the monk above a wisdom bonus might have been better. As with the druid, nature magic isn't really the best thematic fit, though the hunting and tracking angle certainly works, and access to Pass Without Trace in the ranger spell list is great. Not quite as good a fit as Fighter or Rogue by default, but not far behind, either.

Gloom Stalker - Lack of a wisdom bonus certainly hurts here, even more than with other rangers, as the Gloom Stalker's initiative bonus and potent Fear spell are based on it. That said you get tons of shadowy goodness out of the package, while being probably the best build at sneaking & scouting in the game. Next to Shadow Monk, Gloom Stalker is probably my top class suggestion for Shadar-Kai characters.
Horizon Walker - A bunch of teleport abilities, which are often associated with shadow magic in 5e, along with other abilities that facilitate planar travel, like analyzing portals or the like. Considering that shadar-kai are often travelling from their homes in the shadowfell on missions to retrieve items located on other planes of existence, horizon walkers seem like they'd be a natural fit as inter-dimensional guides and expedition leaders.
Monster Hunter - Whether this subclass gets the extra nod for flavor depends on how you and your DM see the attitude of shadar-kai towards wizards in general, and nagpas in particular. In 5e, the wizard coven that became the nagpas was responsible for the fall of the entire race. So far we don't have any canon details on whether this led to lasting animosity and hatred on the part of the shadar-kai. If so, then a ranger with features that specialize in hunting and slaying spellcasting monsters might be particularly flavorful. If not, then less so.




Divine Classes (Cleric & Paladin)
In 4e, Shadar-Kai, as the chosen people of one of the premier deities and a race with an optional Wisdom boost, worked well with divine classes. Avenger in particular was a good and flavorful fit. In 5e... not so much. Lack of wis or strength & cha bonuses puts them a step behind for Cleric and typical Paladins respectively. Since the 5e Raven Queen isn't by default a goddess, divine classes are a less attractive choice on thematic grounds as well, so no great loss there. Yeah, this is a pretty red section, here.


CLERIC - No wisdom bonuses starts shadar-kai out a step behind most other popular cleric races, and racial devotion to a non-deity means there's little reason to force the issue here. That said, Millstone85 quotes Mike Mearls below stating that "in some worlds, the Raven Queen is more powerful, worshipped as a god and able to grant divine power." In such a world, shadar-kai clerics would work better from a thematic perspective, though from the perspective of mechanical optimization, they still wouldn't have much going for them. If you are playing in a world where the raven queen can ordain clerics, these are the domains I would look at:

Death - in 4e the Raven Queen was a Death god, sort of like Kelemvor, and she's still somewhat associated with souls and the dead. Just a shame this lore is more about killing people than manipulating the souls of those already dead.
Grave - same-ish as Death domain, but slightly less sinister overtones, and since it's not in the DMG your DM is more likely to let you play it. Does have a bit of anti-undead flavor, which works with the Raven Queen as an enemy of Vecna. Probably better than Death, all things considered.
Arcane - The Raven Queen has some association with the arcane. In 5e, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks are said to be those most likely to know about her. This also has some 'secret knowledge' feel to it, which works with the Raven Queen hoarding secrets.
Knowledge - Again the 'secret knowledge' angle.
Trickery - This one's less about the Raven Queen's characterization and more about the shadow magic flavor of her powers and those of the shadar-kai themselves. The domain most associated with illusion abilities kind of plays off that.



PALADIN - the existence of finesse weapons doesn't quite save this class from getting a red rating here. That is because paladins tend to favor their secondary charisma stat to the point that it's practically co-equal to or even more important than their physical attack stat. Those who don't favor charisma quite as highly frequently want to multiclass out of paladin sometime between levels 7 and 13, and any paladin multiclass requires a 13 strength, which is a really rough prerequisite on dex-based paladins working under standard stat array or point buy. In terms of flavor, paladins draw their power from oaths rather than gods, but most of the existing oaths just do not fit the shadar-kai disposition, or the Raven Queen for that matter. They're not depicted as especially virtuous or compassionate or forgiving or inclined towards protecting the wild places of the world. Nor do they seem especially or power hungry.

Oath of Vengeance - if you really want to play a shadar-kai paladin, this is the best fit. The 5e Raven Queen is depicted as being at least a little bit spiteful, enjoying ironic punishments both in how she dealt with the nagpas and in her habit of trapping dead souls in prisons of their own unfinished business, and that thematic thread could be drawn out into a reasonable shadar-kai Paladin of Vengeance. Stick to finesse weapons to capitalize on your dexterity, and stay single classed so you don't bump into the multiclass paladin's strength requirement, and this almost starts looking pretty good.




Arcane Classes (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard)
If you really want to excel at dark and/or shadow magic in 5e, this is where the most attractive subclasses are. Shadow Sorcerer, Hexblade Warlock, Whispers Bard, and Illusionist Wizard are the premier thematic examples. Additionally, it is implied that the ritual that created the Raven Queen was arcane in nature, and she's loosely associated with arcane magic and its practitioners, particularly warlocks. Unfortunately, without a racial bonus to intelligence or charisma shadar-kai suffer a bit in this category. Furthermore, shadar-kai arguably have historical cause to dislike wizards. And if you look past the thematically appealing subclasses, charisma-based spellcasters tend to draw their power from their own inner drive and flamboyant or even explosive personalities, and that just does not describe the shadar-kai in 5th edition. Altogether, there's going to be a lot of red and purple in this section.


BARD - On the face of it, shadar-kai make for pretty poor bards, whether you're looking at mechanics or narrative. They lack the important racial bonus to charisma, and their quiet, sorrowful, and rather emotionless affect doesn't incline them to what traditionally the most boisterous and flamboyant class. Put simply, bards are about good times, and shadar-kai just aren't. Maybe if we ever see a Dirgesinger subclass. That said, if you really want to play a shadar-kai bard, they do have at least some proficiency armor and with finesse weapons that will let you use your strong dex score to shore up your flagging charisma a bit, and the Bard spell list does have a lot of buffing spells that will let you circumvent your lower save DC. It's unfortunate that they don't, by default, get the melee cantrips from SCAG, so you'll want to do something to access one or more of those.

College of Whispers - not the strongest school, but definitely the creepiest and most shadowy of those currently available. In general shadar-kai don't seem to interact directly with other cultures much, preferring more physical forms of infiltration, but social infiltration subtly influencing a society to tear itself apart from within isn't entirely out of character, and the pseudo-sneak attack feels suitably ninja-ish.
College of Lore - playing on the themes of arcane magic and secret knowledge associated with the Raven Queen
College of Swords - doubling down on the bard's backup martial abilities, the sword bard is probably the best mechanical fit for shadar-kai bards, and isn't entirely outside of their thematic associations. It's probably a bit generous to call this green, the rating is more in terms of comparison to other bard subclasses than to other classes generally.


SORCERER - Like the bard, the Sorcerer's magic flows from the strength of their outsized personality, but also often from a hereditary connection to a powerful magical ancestor. Neither seems likely to apply to shadar-kai. And mechanically, that lack of a racial charisma bonus still hurts. It hurts even worse than with bard, because the sorcerer class doesn't have that secondary swashbuckling theme to fall back on, though at least you do get the SCAG cantrips, for some reason. On top of that, a sorcerer is often expected to be a blaster, and blasters are the spellcasters most reliant on their spell attack modifiers and spell save DCs. All of that's a shame, because the sorcerer subclasses include one of the very best thematic fits for a shadar-kai spellcaster.

Shadow Sorcerer - The shadow sorcerer only rates purple, but it's a strong, strong purple, because the Shadow Sorcerer has all the splooky, spooky darkness a shadar-kai spellcaster could ask for. Thematically, it's as strong as shadow monk. As with most shadar-kai primary spellcasters, try to focus your spell selection on buffing and battlefield control spells that don't rely as heavily on your charisma. It's still a bit of a "square peg/round hole", but the flavor here is so good that it's worth trying to make it fit.
Divine Sorcerer - By default this is a poor fit for shadar-kai, but again in some worlds the Raven Queen is more powerful, closer to a true deity. IF you're playing in such a setting AND in your setting the Raven Queen is served by some equivalent to the celestial creatures that serve other deities THEN AND ONLY THEN this subclass could become a reasonably good thematic fit. Still not a great mechanical choice, though.


WARLOCK - the Raven Queen is associated with the warlock more than any other class. 5e lore implies that the Raven Queen is the true power behind the Hexblade patron, and she was even herself a direct warlock patron in Unearthed Arcana - though that seems to be abandoned content at this point. The rating for this class assumes you're using one of those two patrons. For any other patron choice, this class is a lot worse thematically. Unfortunately, the lack of a racial charisma bonus continues to sting here, though there is some narrative justification for that. After all, when bartering their souls to the Raven Queen for power, shadar-kai aren't really bargaining from a position of strength. Their souls are bound to hers already.

Raven Queen Patron (UA) - Assuming your DM even allows it, the Raven pseudo-familiar at level one makes this an absolutely fantastic 1-3 level flavor dip if you can afford the cha 13 multiclassing requirement. As a primary class, Raven Queen Warlock wants to be a tome-using blaster, which is mechanically not the best angle for shadar-kai warlocks, as eldritch blasting is very charisma-intensive. In contrast bladelocks can fall back on their dexterity via finesse weapons for round-by-round damage contribution, though it's a bit awkward. Raven Queen bladelock can sort of work, though, particularly if you start your progression with a level or two of fighter. Either way, you might want to get out shortly after picking up that super cool 6th level ability, as the later level patron features don't do much for you, in particular the redundant necrotic resistance.
Hexblade - Hexblade is designed in part to be a fix for bladelocks. Bladelock is already the best way to go for shadar-kai warlocks mechanically, so this should in theory work really well for them. Unfortunately the nature of the fix was to shift the hexblade bladelock's attack stat back to charisma, and while that's a lot better for bladelocks generally, it isn't doing shadar-kai any favors. Still, you can start with a +3 dex mod, and just use that to swing with until your charisma eventually overtakes it. You'll still be behind for several levels, but not the critical early levels when you're just starting out. The difference starts showing at level 4, but by that point you can get advantage from darkness/devils sight, so you should be ok. And the other features of the hexblade - extra proficiencies, hexblade's curse, the Shield spell, several of your higher level features - that stuff is all still very good, and none of that is dependent on your charisma. Mixing in some Fighter levels, especially starting off, will still help smooth things over. And like Raven Queen Warlock, this is a great 1-3 level flavor dip if you're looking to add some shadow magic flavor to another class, and have the stats to spare for the 13 charisma multiclassing requirement


WIZARD - You don't have the racial stat mods to be great at it, and a cabal of Wizards doomed your entire people, so you might not even want to be. That said, shadar-kai society was inclined enough towards wizardry to have such a cabal in the first place, and that culture is said to have continued in some fashion to the modern day, and the Raven Queen herself is associated with both arcane magic and secret knowledge, which is a very wizardy combination. On top of that, wizards have a very long and diverse spell list, and there's a lot of juicy shadow-magic to be found there, so your mileage may vary on whether you find them to be a good thematic fit overall.

Divination - playing up the Raven Queen's associations with dreams and secret knowledge.
Illusion - illusion is the school most associated with shadow magic.
Bladesinger - this tradition is explicitly associated with elves in general, and happens to be an exotic fighting style, getting some of that flavor in, plus finding a use for your dexterity. Arguably the best wizard school for shadar-kai in terms of concept and style, but it's a bit dull to play as your primary class. Better, whether mechanically, thematically, or just in overall feel, as a 2-3 level multiclass dip, particularly for eldritch knights and arcane tricksters.



................................

Half Elves

As elves, 5e Shadar-Kai have one feature that you won't find in their write-up: they can, at least theoretically, have children with humans, producing half elves. That said, there is no specific mention of half-elf shadar-kai in MToF one way or the other, so players who wish to play one and their DMs will have to work out how exactly half-elves do or don't fit into shadar-kai society, or even whether they exist in the first place. Which they might not, especially if the DM reads the shadar-kai as entirely hostile or even just extremely isolationist - and there's plenty of textual justification to read them that way, though if that is how your DM is running shadar-kai in your game, then full blooded shadar-kai PCs might be inappropriate as well. I'll suggest some ideas on how and why half-shadar-kai might be incorporated into shadar-kai society in the next post, but it's important to note that in the absence of any explicit canon on the subject such suggestions will be entirely homebrew in nature.

Assuming you and your DM do see half-shadar-kai as an appropriate player race choice, the base half elf rules (as there are no specific half-shadar-kai rules as of yet), make them a great choice for basically any class, and in particular work extremely well for several of those fluffy charisma classes that full blooded shadar-kai can struggle with mechanically, in particular Vengeance Paladin, Whispers Bard, Shadow Sorcerer, Raven Queen Warlock, and Hexblade. The option to grab a racial bonus to intelligence also makes them better Wizards, assuming you find them to be an appropriate thematic choice for shadar-kai in the first place..

.....................

Shadar-Kai Aasimar

In 4e, where the Raven Queen was explicitly a deity, she was served by her own class of quasi-celestial Sorrowsworn. As mentioned in the first post, the Sorrowsworn in 5e are something else entirely, with no direct connection to the Raven Queen and there is nothing like the 4e Sorrowsworn. The Raven Queen is not a deity, her messengers and heralds are not powerful, darkly angelic beings, but rather flocks of unnervingly intelligent ravens, who convey cryptic instructions for her followers to decipher and follow to the best of their abilities. She is not, by default, on good terms with other deities, and in particular is on bad terms with the elven deities. Aasimar born to shadar-kai parents should by default basically never happen.

However, we're also told than in some realities the Raven Queen is more powerful, allowing her to grant divine abilities to her followers, empowering clerics and the like. If (and only if) you happen to be playing in such a setting, then the Raven Queen may also be directly served by the same sorts of celestials that serve other gods, albeit of a more sombre disposition, which could in turn serve as the divine patrons of Aasimar characters born to Shadar-Kai parents. How such characters would be viewed by shadar-kai society is something you'd need to work out with your DM, but aasimar make particularly effective Paladins and Sorcerers and Multiclasses of the Two. Such a character might serve as a powerful weapon for the Raven Queen to wield against Vecna's necromantic cults.

..........................

The Whys and Hows of Serving the Raven Queen

5e's Raven Queen is a considerably more mysterious and indistinct figure than her previous incarnation, both from the perspective of the player, since there's so little established cannon about her so far, and from the character's perspective, as communication from the raven queen seems to be considerably more cryptic, and the rewards of long term service much less defined. Gone are the days when the Raven Queen handed out explicit boons and divine powers, or elevated favorite followers to the ranks of her semi-angelic chosen. MToF gives reasons why the PCs might travel to her castle to barter for some lost soul, forgotten secret, or stolen keepsake, but not why a PC might dedicate themselves to the Raven Queen as a patron or establish any sort of long term relationship.

The established lore does present some ideas, though. For Shadar-kai the link is obvious, for they are bound to the Raven Queen by nature, and it is by her will that they are reborn into the world after they die. The situation is similar for warlocks of the Hexblade or Raven Queen patron, as they do draw power directly from her. Likewise with divine spellcasters in those worlds where she is powerful enough to grant such power. Wizards might turn to her, seeing her collection as a font of long lost arcane lore. Those with a grudge against the servants of Vecna might reach out to the Raven Queen as a potent ally against the arch-liche, receiving dreams or raven messengers guiding them to where Vecna's cults can be found and confronted.

homebrew mechanics:
- spiked chain
- masks?
- shadar-kai magic
- half shadar-kai

[Sception]

5th edition Shadar-Kai, Monsters or People?

While there is very little content for the 5th edition incarnation of shadar-kai so far, that doesn't stop what is there from already being a touch self-contradictory, in tone at least, if not in concrete details. In particular, the picture painted of the shadar-kai in the elf chapter of MTOF is rather different from that painted in their monster descriptions. In the elf chapter, they seem to be a reclusive people - though that can be said of most elves, but not innately hostile to outsiders. At least, in so far as they don't turn away those who come to their lands to make requests of the Raven Queen, and they even help such petitioners prepare for the Raven Queen's tests. They send raiding groups into other lands and realms, but they are only described as doing so in order to steal trinkets linked to tragic memories for their queen. Yes, they also sometimes steal souls as well, but they are only said to do so when the target is already "close to death", and even then it's left vague, I would guess deliberately so, as to whether they kill such targets themselves.

To be sure, that doesn't make them at all friendly or good. Soul theft is generally considered a great evil in D&D land, even if you're stealing it back to a queen who will cleanse the soul of trauma before releasing it (which the book suggests without confirming might be the Raven Queen's purpose and function in the overall cosmology). And for elves in particular, the theft of a small item tied closely to a cherished memory - ie, the typical given goal of shadar-kai raids - is said to be a particularly horrific crime, considered worse than murder. Even the friendliest interpretation of shadar-kai would make them a people most surface elves would react to with shock, horror, or revulsion, if perhaps not the same visceral hatred they feel for the drow. I am reminded of the John Mullaney bit about a kid he knew in high school who stole antique family photos at parties because "it's the only thing you can't replace." Which opens up the shadar-kai to being interpreted as increadibly cruel and hateful of others, evil in the truest sense of the alignment in D&D, as their actions wouldn't even be motivated by self interest, but rather by maximizing the suffering of their victims. That again, though, could be seen as having a benevolent effect via the "great filter" concept, freeing the victim to move beyond the past so they can learn to face the future.

So the description of the shadar-kai in the elf chapter seems deliberately crafted to allow either malevolent and cruel shadar-kai or less malevolent, even somewhat benevolent shadar-kai, though even the more banevolent interpretation would still come off as creepy and would likely be thought of as cruel thieves who steal not for profit but purely to inflict suffering through loss, especially by other elves. They, however, would see themselves as performing an unpleasant but necessary service, relieving their 'victims' of the emotional burdens that only serve to weigh them down. Such an interpretation would paint the shadar-kai as sad and somber and literally misunderstood, likely to be seen as villains, but not outright villainous by nature or intent.

Unfortunately, the possibility of a more benevolent interpretation of the shadar-kai that MToF seems to go out of its way to allow in the elf chapter goes right out the window in the monster descriptions later in the same book. Those shadar-kai are described as inherently, almost elementally hostile to other life, more like an undead ghoul or wight than a hostile npc bandit or raider: "Wracked with despair... soul mongers now crave the vitality of others." They and the Raven Queen they serve are described as taking delight in inflicting suffering "This torment alone is enough to please its master, the Raven Queen". Trinket theft is referenced, but only as being conducted after slaughtering their victims: "When their quarry is helpless... [they] dispatch the prey. Then they loot the corpse for trinkets." This fluff is reflected in their stat lines, as they have auras that inflict various forms of suffering or misfortune on any non-shadar-kai creature merely existing in their presence.

It is difficult, though not impossible, to square this monstrous depiction with the elf chapter shadar-kai. Again, their trinket-theft can be read as deliberately cruel, for the purpose of causing suffering. And the shadar-kai who aid petitioners preparing to face the Raven Queen could be interpreted as only refraining from murdering outsiders out of fear of the Raven Queen, who might be displeased if they kill someone she might wish to speak to. It's still a bit of a stretch, though, because how would such a creature even be able to help others prepare to face the raven queen, when its very presence is antithetical to other life?

Furthermore, shadar-kai are said to maintain a reflection of their pre-fall society, and it's hard to see these creatures maintaining any society at all, let alone one in any way similar to that of early elves. One has difficulty imagining such creatures growing crops or raising livestock or repairing homes. And while one could envision them perhaps raiding for all their necessary supplies, a society built on that seems unlikely to bare even a passing resemblance to what they were before.

And the monstrous shadar-kai profiles don't even have the 'Raven Queen's Blessing' racial teleport ability. One of the three monster profiles doesn't have any teleport abilities at all. It's almost as if whoever wrote the monster descriptions only got a cliffs note version of what the 5e shadar-kai were even about, and in particular didn't catch that they were also supposed to be an acceptable choice of player race.


All that comes to the main point of this section: Extreme as they are, the 'all shadar-kai are like the abominations in the monster section' is certainly as valid and consistent reading of MToF as is possible, as it doesn't directly contradict anything in the player chapter, which again has very little by way of specific detail, when it isn't being presented as outright rumors, theories, and legends.

HOWEVER, if that is the interpretation you or your DM are going with, then shadar-kai are probably NOT an appropriate player race choice in your game. Even in an evil game, the shadar-kai described in the monster section of MToF would almost certainly be insurmountably hostile to any non-shadar-kai characters in the party.

There are several options to bridge this gap, but they will by necessity involve making up new lore outright that, while it might not contradict the existing first party description of the shadar-kai, isn't exactly supported by it, either. I'll suggest a few, but keep in mind that all of these are basically non-official-cannon ideas invented for the explicit purpose of allowing shadar-kai as a viable race in a typical D&d campaign with a neutral-to-good aligned player party.



Almost all shadar-kai are monsters like in the monster descriptions, but sometimes a rare individual breaks away from this society and tries to live a different life more in keeping with their other elf kin, as with exile drow. This is the "occam's razor" option that adds the least ancillary fluff to the existing description. The problem with this is that it isn't just an evil society that seems to drive the monster description shadar-kai to acts of evil, but rather their inherent nature. They seem less like drow or orcs or goblins, and more like ghouls or wights or this regard, again, see references to hollowed out souls that drive them to steal the vitality of other living things. Additionally, while this might allow for shadar-kai PCs, it probably wouldn't really allow for shadar-kai PCs who also still follow the Raven Queen, as walking away from their existing society would be a prerequisite to becoming viable as a PC. In the same way that you could have an exile drow PC in a regular player party, but an exile drow who still worshipped and followed Lolth probably wouldn't work out, and cutting PC shadar-kai off from the Raven Queen removes a lot of their appeal, at least from my personal perspective.

Shadar-kai are like their monster descriptions, but only their warriors, and only when they are doing battle. The baleful moaning and vitality-sucking auras a fighting styles or stances, like bladesong or the like, entered when there are enemies to fight, then dropped afterword. And the particularly cruel and murderous aspects of those descriptions only apply when facing enemies they already have other reason to kill, such as the cultists of Vecna. To be clear, nothing in the text supports this, and it does rather contradict the monster descrptions themselves. But if you were going to make something up that would allow you to keep those monsters around while still having a less malevolent interpretation of shadar-kai society as a whole such as would allow extended visits and, in particular, shadar-kai PCs, this version adds less extra faff than most options.

Some groups of shadar-kai are like the monster versions, but not all. Shadar-kai are said to have "lands" and "communities", plural in both cases. And while their connection to the Raven Queen seems ironclad and unbreakable, their understanding of her and communication with her seems tenuous at best. As with any researchers or followers in the mortal realm, the Raven Queen doesn't speak to her people in the Shadowfell directly, but rather through signs and sigils and cryptic messages that the shadar-kai are left to interpret as best they are able. And since mortal scholars of the arcane have many contradictory interpretations of what the Raven Queen wants and just how malevolent or benevolent her nature and motivations are exactly, then it's not unreasonable to think that similar conflicting schools of thought may exist among the shadar-kai as well. Thus you might have rival shadar-kai communities each advancing different interpretations of the Raven Queen's commands, some like the monster versions embracing their darkness and becoming monsters to inflict vengeful suffering on all other living things, while rival groups see the Raven Queen's purpose, and thus their own, taking the world's sorrow and tragedy into themselves to purify the rest of reality of the echoes of that suffering. This interpretation doesn't exactly conflict with what's in the text, but it isn't at all directly supported, as there's no mention yet of any internal subfactions or conflict within shadar-kai society as a whole.

Shadar-kai live the majority of their lives within the oppressive soul-corroding environment of the shadowfell, and within every generation there are always a few for whom that burden is too great, causing them to go mad and be consumed with hatred of other living things. These individuals lose the Raven Queen's Blessing (hence why all three monster profiles lack "the Blessing of the Raven Queen" racial ability), and in their desperation both to soothe their corrupted souls and reclaim their queen's favor, they strike out at any perceived outsiders in parodies of normally less lethal shadar-kai raids. This response basically just pushes the monster profiles out of shadar-kai society by calling exceptions, corrupted exiles not representative of their people as a whole. Of course, there is nothing supporting this in the text itself, apart from the debatable disconnects between the descriptions in the elf chapter and the monster chapter, so this is more or less a convenient house rule retcon, albeit one that might prove necessary for DMs who want to spend time exploring shadar-kai as a culture in their game, because the versions depicted in the monster profiles don't seem well suited for that.

The monster descriptions are for games where the shadar-kai are just monsters, and the PC race write up and less hostile elements of their description in the elf chapter are to be disregarded in such a game. Likewise, the PC race is only for games where shadar-kai are people, not monsters, and the monster write ups should be ignored in that case. Just use standard npc stats with the shadar-kai racial traits for shadar-kai bandits, cultists, or what have you in that case. The easiest way to resolve seemingly contradictory content is to just pick the part you like for your game, and just arbitrarily drop the contradicting content from it. The laziest option, one that drops existing lore rather than making up extra, but also probably the most workable. That said, given how little lore there is for 5e shadar-kai to begin with, it's hard to justify cutting out any part of what little there is.

Abandon 5e lore entirely, and just port forward the lore from 4e. That's always an option, but this thread in general, and this post in particular, is about playing 5e shadar-kai AS 5e shadar-kai, so this option won't be discussed further, other than to say you should try to find a copy of the 4e supplement Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond.



Of course, these aren't the only options you might come up with to square this circle, but it is something you kind of have to figure out a solution for as a DM before allowing players to play a shadar-kai character, or with your DM before attempting to play one yourself.



expanding the 5e lore
- a replacement for sorrowsworn?
- stolen emotions: lost, or still felt?
- the soul filter: domains of dread, dark powers, and the raven queen
- raven queen as a darklord of ravenloft or something very like one, the palace of memories as a domain of dread
- strahd : raven queen :: vistani : shadar-kai ?
- alternatively the raven queen as the dark powers or one of them, domains of dread as similar to what she does to captured souls
- half elves
- aasimar? maybe?
- kenku?
- Eladrin Followers of the Raven Queen: Winter Elves
- hexblades

adapting 5e lore to bring back 4e themes
- death & memory, pixar's coco
- fate?

etc etc

[Envyus]

The 5e Shadar Kai are more based on the 3e version.

[DanyBallon]

I think that they had to retcon the Raven Queen backstory, because 4e was a melting pot of deities from different settings, which worked great for the Point of Light setting. In 5e where they brought back FR as the «*main*» setting, having the Raven tied to Nerull a Flan deity from Greyhawk, wouldn’t fit very well. Also from my understanding the Shadowfell nature changed as well between 4e and 5e when the cosmology changed back to thw Great Wheel.
That being said, from the description you gave us of 4e and 5e Shadar-kai, I prefer the former. They seems to be more attractive as a player race this way.

I’ll give a good read to the 5e SK when I get my MToF, and gather as much lore from internet for the 4e version and let you know about my ideas to give a bit of the 4e fell to the 5e version.

[Unoriginal]

In 5e where they brought back FR as the «*main*» setting

*inhale deeply*

No, they have not. Forgotten Realms is not 5e main setting, nor will it ever be. That most of the adventure modules happen on FR don't make it the main setting.

All of the D&D worlds exist in the 5e Material Plane.



having the Raven tied to Nerull a Flan deity from Greyhawk, wouldn’t fit very well..

Nerull exist in 5e, and being from Greyhawk is not an issue.

Even in Adventure League modules you can meet characters from Greyhawk.

[RedCarcharodon]

I think that they had to retcon the Raven Queen backstory, because 4e was a melting pot of deities from different settings, which worked great for the Point of Light setting. In 5e where they brought back FR as the «*main*» setting, having the Raven tied to Nerull a Flan deity from Greyhawk, wouldn’t fit very well. Also from my understanding the Shadowfell nature changed as well between 4e and 5e when the cosmology changed back to thw Great Wheel.
That being said, from the description you gave us of 4e and 5e Shadar-kai, I prefer the former. They seems to be more attractive as a player race this way.

I’ll give a good read to the 5e SK when I get my MToF, and gather as much lore from internet for the 4e version and let you know about my ideas to give a bit of the 4e fell to the 5e version.

The Realms might be where they're setting most of the adventures so far, but all the other settings have been mentioned. The DMG has pantheons for Eberron, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and the Nentir Vale. The adventure paths have bits on converting to settings other than the Realms. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes has bits on worlds like Krynn, Greyhawk, and Eberron. Even Mordenkainen himself is from Greyhawk rather than the Realms.

[DanyBallon]

*inhale deeply*

No, they have not. Forgotten Realms is not 5e main setting, nor will it ever be. That most of the adventure modules happen on FR don't make it the main setting.

All of the D&D worlds exist in the 5e Material Plane.

Nerull exist in 5e, and being from Greyhawk is not an issue.

Even in Adventure League modules you can meet characters from Greyhawk.

I think you missed the ‘’ ‘’ (« » on a french keyboard) part ;)
I’m not saying that FR is the official setting or the only setting, but the main one used by WotC for their adventures and AL.

Nerull being from Greyhawk, it doesn’t fit into FR, and as for myself, the Shadowfell has no place in Greyhawk either.

Now that being said, by using Vecna as a nemesis for the Raven Queen is a better idea as Vecna is known to have ventured to Sigil and gave him access to a multitude of material planes. This make it easier to retrofit the Raven Queen into many settings

[darknite]

Eh, everything changes. Except war. War never changes.

[Sception]

The 5e Shadar Kai are more based on the 3e version.

Both Shadar-Kai and Sorrowsworn look a fair bit more like their 3e versions, though even then aren't a particularly straight line translation. One almost kind of wonders why they bothered with the Raven Queen at all, or at least why they made her THE ONE AND ONLY master of the Shadar-Kai, rather than making her just one of a handful of Unseelie/shadow-themed Fey lords & ladies who might have included Shadar-Kai within their courts.

Either way, it's different. Again, I don't mean to argue better or worse, just pointing out how its different and looking at making the current version work as best as possible in its own right.

[Ganymede]

Personally, I love the reimagination of the Sorrowsworn as Silent Hill inspired monsters. It is a lot of fun.

[Millstone85]

I have got an idea.

Here are some things Mearls said during his D&D Beyond interview on the Raven Queen.
0:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXWgG83jyaI#t=55s)
So in the world of Nentir Vale, she is regarded as a goddess. And there is myths of how she arose. She slew the god Nerull, the god of death. Though Nerull cultists on Oerth, the world of Greyhawk, would find that strange, because they worship Nerull and he is still around and answering their pleas.6:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXWgG83jyaI#t=6m7s)
And so she is a very mysterious and strange figure, sort of straddling the line between life and death. And in some worlds, like the world of Nentir Vale, she is worshiped as a god and she has clerics. And you know, paladins and everything. She is very powerful and can impart powers to others. But she is not quite a deity, she is somewhere in-between.


And here is what the DMG has to say on divine ranks.
The divine beings of the multiverse are often categorized according to their cosmic power. Some gods are worshiped on multiple worlds and have a different rank on each world, depending on their influence there.
Quasi-deities have a divine origin, but they don't hear or answer prayers, grant spells to clerics, or control aspects of mortal life. They are still immensely powerful beings, and in theory they could ascend to godhood if they amassed enough worshipers. Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges.
Vestiges are deities who have lost nearly all their worshipers and are considered dead, from a mortal perspective. Esoteric rituals can sometimes contact these beings and draw on their latent power.


Wouldn't it be appropriate for the ruler of the Shadowfell to be a vestige, except on those worlds where she ascended as a full goddess of death?

And yes, I am assuming there exist separate echoes of Krynn, Oerth, Toril, the world of Nentir Vale (which really needs a name), etc. in the Shadowfell, and that places like the Raven Queen's castle are TARDIS-ing between them. That's a headcanon of mine regarding the new cosmology.

[Sception]

the problem with this is that the questions of just how powerful the raven queen is and whether she is a technical deity and what her specific history was before becoming the Raven Queen are least important aspects of the divergence between her 4e and 5e incarnations.

4e raven queen is an entity linked with fate & the future and characterized by boundless ambition. 5e raven queen is an entity linked with memory & the past and characterized by ennui and loss. They are practically opposite in core identity, not just the superficial details of their histories.

[Pronounceable]

The newly made brand new Shadowfell goddess and also brand new Shadowfell race are not at all bad creations. They're pretty neat and fitting and even rather creative for DnD. It's a good job. However they're not Raven Queen or shadar-kai and everybody knows it. Especially wotc. I'm saying this as someone who never played any 4e or liked Raven Queen and the dumbass shadar-kai who literally cut themselves on that edge: this whole naming is a massive pile of bull****. It's a transparent attempt at appropriating names of some of the few breakout things of previous edition to capitalize on their old fame, while also taking a massive dump on 4e1 by making it completely unrecognizable.

Raven Queen was functionally Kelemvor anyway, who'd moved to Shadowfell after the operation to distance herself from the dumb past baggage (and also to get away from that Wall horse**** that she'd always hated). That was probably one of the reasons RQ became so big in 4e despite her noob status: Kelemvor was and always has been a cool god on a conceptual level if you cut him off of all FR crap.

Conversely, this so called "Raven Queen" is an even suckier2 and pathetic (and also emo) version of Abbathor. As if Abbathor didn't suck hard enough. While there's definitely a place for crappy gods for losers in DnD (Abbathor has been there for decades after all), putting the one goddess from previous edition who'd made it big among the general nerd population in that bag is kinda speaks for itself.

But the saddest thing is prolly that the duders over at wotc aren't even realizing what they're really doing (taking massive ****s on the previous edition just because they can). I certainly would've felt better if I could've believed this a conspiracy theory from marketing (old stuff sucked, buy our new ****!!!1!) but no. Nerds, even if they grow up and become "professionals", are perennially self-unaware.


1 Probably because "**** 4e" is wotc's unofficial motto now.
2 aka elven

[Naanomi]

I don’t want to get into edition wars stuff... but as a 2e+ player I’m confused about even the basics of the argument ‘it intentionally ruins 4e lore’... I just barely got back the entire Cosmology I know and love, and even then it has taken a lot of damage in the transition

[Millstone85]

I don’t want to get into edition wars stuff... but as a 2e+ player I’m confused about even the basics of the argument ‘it intentionally ruins 4e lore’... I just barely got back the entire Cosmology I know and love, and even then it has taken a lot of damage in the transitionConsider the Elemental Chaos.

It can be said that the Great Wheel got damaged by its inclusion. The Wheel worked fine without this, thank you very much.

It can also be said that the Elemental Chaos got damaged during its transition to the Great Wheel. The plane was stripped down of everything that made it interesting, because various aspects of it were moved (okay, returned) to other planes.

Alas, one does not preclude the other.

[Pronounceable]

They just invented Cyric but then named him Vecna to draw the 1e crowd is the analogy you'd be looking at if we were in 1989 (and also you were a time traveller from later on who'd know the dude was supposed to be named Cyric).

[Sception]

First draft of class/subclass suggestions for Shadar-Kai characters is up. Am I peddling any terrible advice? Are there any good mechanical fits, or good thematic fits that you can sort of make work mechanically if you squint hard enough, that I missed?

[Malifice]

You consider lack of a +1 bonus to charisma a fatal flaw for pursuing a charisma based class?

[Arkhios]

First draft of class/subclass suggestions for Shadar-Kai characters is up. Am I peddling any terrible advice? Are there any good mechanical fits, or good thematic fits that you can sort of make work mechanically if you squint hard enough, that I missed?

Not exactly feedback for the quality, the issue just bothers me a little...

While you did acknowledge a previous post noting that 5e Shadar-Kai are a nod towards their 3rd edition version, being a sub-race specific guide, I think it deserves to be mentioned (in the OP) that 5e Shadar-Kai as a subrace of elf isn't really a "new thing" at all. Original Shadar-Kai were fey (elves used to be fey as well), after all, not shadowfell "humans". Currently it's presented in such a way that it seems like Shadar-Kai originated in 4e (which is inaccurate).

That said, I do appreciate what you're doing here. I don't know why, but Shadar-Kai are the most interesting elf subrace so far in 5th edition (imho). It might be a bit "emo", but I assure you, that's not why I like them.

[Willie the Duck]

You consider lack of a +1 bonus to charisma a fatal flaw for pursuing a charisma based class?

I get the impression that these guides (or at least their color coding scheme) work on the logic that everyone uses point buy or array and that a starting stat below 16 is too suboptimal to get high color marks. As long as they don't say, 'this is a bad idea all around, never do it' I'm fine with it.

And, arguably, there are no classes that don't appreciate a +2 Dex, +1 Con; if you start from the place of 'well, we used rolled stats, so whatever my high roll is I will put in Charisma, and then have some nice Dex and Con goodness from my race.' That's so broadly usable that we might as well throw out any color coding system. A race without a +1 or more to cha is suboptimal to cha-classes.

So basically, "meh, close enough."

[Sception]

I don't think I particularly brought up the in-universe origin of Shadar-Kai, whether as altered humans in 4e or as altered elves in 5e, very much at all either way. I suppose I could add a bit about it.

In personality though, the 3e fey Shadar-Kai were more like the 4e version than the new incarnation. As with the 4e version, 3e Shadar-Kai culture revolved around resisting a magical draining effect pulling on their soul, in their case a cursed link to the shadow plane rather than a non-cursed link to the Shadowfell. And that resistance took a similar form - deliberately cultivated strong emotions, a bitter and driven disposition, tools to link their soul to their body that caused them to suffer constant pain. And they looked more like 4e shadar-kai as well, favoring tatoos, piercings, scarification, and intricate hair styles.

5e shadar-kai aren't, so far anyway, associated with any of that. They're sorrowful, nigh emotionless, wear masks - seemingly not as a form of expression but rather to hide their features. They're shown without tatoos, scars, piercings, and mostly with heads shaved of hair entirely.

The more I think back on 3e Shadar-Kai, the less 5e Shadar-Kai resemble them. I mean, 3e SK were fey, and 5e SK are elves, so that's closer than 4e SK who were human, right? Except 5e elves aren't fey by default either.

So I take back my previous comment. 5e SK are even further removed from 3e SK than the 4e version was, and since this thread is mostly focused on Shadar-Kai as a player race in 5th edition, there doesn't seem to be much reason to spend a lot of time or attention on the long gone 3e version.

[Arkhios]

Except 5e elves aren't fey by default either.


All elves having Fey Ancestry pretty much disagrees on that. I mean, sure, they're not pure fey, but it's still their heritage.

However, I didn't ask you to write a novel about their 3e origins, just that it deserves to be mentioned, as an aside, so that someone else reading this doesn't get the idea that they were introduced in 4e as a new race entirely. Which just isn't the case. Since you're talking exclusively about 4th and 5th, 3e being omitted might cause a misunderstanding that shadar-kai didn't appear at all before that.

[Millstone85]

And, arguably, there are no classes that don't appreciate a +2 Dex, +1 ConI agree. Notably, I think a shadar-kai hexblade would make sense in both fluff and crunch.

[Sception]

You consider lack of a +1 bonus to charisma a fatal flaw for pursuing a charisma based class?

I should probably note this, but this guide is working on the assumption that the game is using standard array or standard point buy, both of which cap out at 15 for pre-racial stats. And... yeah. You can make it work for a cha secondary class like (non-conquest) paladin, but for a cha primary class that is really going to hurt. Oh, it might seem relatively small in an individual round, but the damage adds up round by round, day by day, for every die roll, in every combat or skill encounter of your character's career, until, at the earliest, level 12, which is longer than most campaigns run.

The same applies for Int or Wis in their respective primary caster classes.

If you're rolling stats, and can just put a base 16 or better in your primary stat, then that's a different situation. You'll catch up four levels sooner that way, and won't be behind 'normal' stat-generation characters in the mean time.

Again, it's not that a +2 looks so much different from a +3 on any individual role, it's the fact that, for your primary stat, the difference is applying to almost every relevant roll that you make for most if not all of your adventuring career. It adds up. I'm not saying you *can't* play a Shadar-Kai character with a Str, Int, Wis, or Cha primary class. Just the same as any class guide on these forums isn't saying you *can't* play any of the races that they rate red for the class being looked at. Just that it is a Bad Fit mechanically, bad enough that the mismatch will have a tangible and difficult-to-ignore impact on your game.


As for Shadar-Kai hexblade, I mention it by name already as a perfect thematic fit that suffers from being a sub-par, but not unworkable, mechanical fit.

[hamishspence]

All elves having Fey Ancestry pretty much disagrees on that. I mean, sure, they're not pure fey, but it's still their heritage.

Even eladrin aren't all fey (the DMG variant is still humanoid).

However, the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes eladrin variant, with Seasons, could reasonably be said to, even the playable version, have the Fey type rather than the Humanoid type.

MTOF does say that both humanoid eladrin and fey eladrin exist in-universe - so the new version doesn't replace the old version.

[Sception]

However, I didn't ask you to write a novel about their 3e origins, just that it deserves to be mentioned, as an aside.

Fair enough, though again, even counting fey origins, 5e shadar-kai are actually a lot further from the 3e version than 4e shadar-kai were. The 5e version is in no way a 'return to form'.


EDIT: added.

[Unoriginal]

You consider lack of a +1 bonus to charisma a fatal flaw for pursuing a charisma based class?

Eh. I'm told that Githzerai make bad Monks in 5e (and that because of that stat bonuses should be divorced from races).

From an optimizer's PoV, not having 16 in your class's primary stat(s) is indeed a fatal flaw.

[Xemuxat]

The Sorcerer King steals the Gloom Weaver's Body. It's a Shadar-Kai.

Burden ofTime. Beasts and humanoids, other than shadar-kai,
have disadvantage on saving throws while within 10 feet of the
gloom weaver.
Fey Ancestry. The gloom weaver has advantage on saving
throws against being charmed, and magic can't put it to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting. The gloom weaver's innate spellcasting
ability is Charisma (spell save DC 16, +8 to hit with spell attacks).
It can innately cast the following spells, requiring no
material components:
At will: arcane eye, mage armor, speak with dead
1/day each: arcane gate, bane, compulsion, confusion, true seeing
Spellcasting. The gloom weaver is a 12th-level s pellcaster. Its
spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 16, +8 to hit with
spell attacks). It regains its expended s pell slots when it fi nis
hes a short or long rest. It knows the fo llowing warlock s pe lls:
Cantrips (at will): chill touch (3d8 damage), eldritch blast (3
beams, +4 bonus to each damage roll), minor illusion, prestidigitation

1st- 5th level (3 5th-level slots): armor of Agathys, blight, darkness,
dream, invisibility.fear, hypnotic pattern, major image,
contact other plane, vampiric touch, witch bolt
ACTIONS
Multiattack. The gloom weaver makes two spear attacks and
casts one spell that takes 1 action to cast.

[Ganymede]

From an optimizer's PoV, not having 16 in your class's primary stat(s) is indeed a fatal flaw.

That's basically saying "it is a fatal flaw because it is a fatal flaw."

Guides are supposed to be evidence based and well considered, not based on what a hypothetical "optimizer" presupposes.

[Unoriginal]

That's basically saying "it is a fatal flaw because it is a fatal flaw."

Guides are supposed to be evidence based and well considered, not based on what a hypothetical "optimizer" presupposes.

That's straight up nonsense.

Not having 16 in your class's primary stat at character creation is in no way a fatal flaw, and evidences demonstrate that you can play characters with far less than that without issues.

Also calling that optimizer 'hypothetical' is gloriously absurd, since that kind of guides don't hide they are optimization guides.

[Sception]

I didn't think I was hiding the optimization angle of the class suggestions here? I specifically call out that I'm trying to make suggestions that are both good thematic fits and good mechanical fits. Some classes aren't suggested for the former reason (sword bards), others aren't suggested for the latter (shadow sorcerers).

In the case of hexblade, which is such a spectacularly good thematic fit that it should be the S-K's favorite class, I took the time to suggest how to best force it to work despite being a poor mechanical fit, something I'll come back to when I get around to sample characters.

But in general, starting with a +2 in your primary stat hurts. I've done it before, I'm speaking from experience. It adds up. roll by roll, session in and session out. I cannot in good conscience recommend Shadar-Kai for shadow sorcerer (another class that should be a favorite for them) at all. The flavor might be good, but yeah. Maybe as a late game secondary multiclass for bladelocks, but even then...

Stats just matter more in 5e than they did in any other edition besides maybe 4e. It's a side effect of bound accuracy - when there are so few bonuses to be had, every little bit you can get matters that much more. And it's a problem compounded by just how limited ASIs are - they only come every four levels, and only then if you never multiclass. Effectively losing one - especially losing one four levels before you even get one... I'm not saying you cannot play it, of course not. Just that it is a pretty big penalty, and you should probably know that going in.

[Unoriginal]

I didn't think I was hiding the optimization angle of the class suggestions here? I specifically call out that I'm trying to make suggestions that are both good thematic fits and good mechanical fits. Some classes aren't suggested for the former reason (sword bards), others aren't suggested for the latter (shadow sorcerers).

In the case of hexblade, which is such a spectacularly good thematic fit that it should be the S-K's favorite class, I took the time to suggest how to best force it to work despite being a poor mechanical fit, something I'll come back to when I get around to sample characters.

Which is why I said that Ganymede's claim that it wasn't optimization was nonsense. As you said, you didn't hide it.




But in general, starting with a +2 in your primary stat hurts. I've done it before, I'm speaking from experience. It adds up. roll by roll, session in and session out. I cannot in good conscience recommend Shadar-Kai for shadow sorcerer (another class that should be a favorite for them) at all. The flavor might be good, but yeah. Maybe as a late game secondary multiclass for bladelocks, but even then...

Stats just matter more in 5e than they did in any other edition besides maybe 4e. It's a side effect of bound accuracy - when there are so few bonuses to be had, every little bit you can get matters that much more. And it's a problem compounded by just how limited ASIs are - they only come every four levels, and only then if you never multiclass. Effectively losing one - especially losing one four levels before you even get one... I'm not saying you cannot play it, of course not. Just that it is a pretty big penalty, and you should probably know that going in.

That's an opinion. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I certainly don't see it that way.

Then again maybe it's a question of experience.

[Sception]

It could be. A lot of things in d&d come down to subjective experience, dm disposition. Optimization tends to work from a least-assumptions, all-else-being-equal kind of place, because that gives the advice given the widest applicability, but if course the truth is that all else usually isnt equal.

For instance, im the type of DM who expects and designs for optimized PCs, but will also optimize characters for their players after the fact if they don't bother. Eg, if someone rolled into one of my games with a 14 cha shadar kai shadow sorcerer, they'd probably find themselves in possession of a 'twilight wand' upping the save dc of their spells, or maybe a 'cloak of midnight grandure' granting them +2 cha when not in bright light, or something of the sort.

I could get into my 'best of all worlds' philosophy, that a game element is best and most immersive when its mechanical ramifications naturally play out the narrative theme. The best example I can point to in 5e us the conquest paladin, a bully who dominates her enemies through fear with mechanical elements that encourage and tangibly reward the player for doing exactly that. Because the narrative and mechanical elements are so perfectly blended, optimization and roleplay enhance each other, rather than getting in each other's way. There's no dissonance there to pull you out of the experience by forcing you to pick one or the other. You become more powerful in the game by acting out your fluff, and becoming more powerful is literally what your fluff says you should want to do,

But that's neither here nor there. For the purposes of this guide, taking the game as it is, my class suggestions are made with both theme and mechanics in mind. I suppose i could go back and give separate ratings for both, instead of the current model where I'm effectively demanding the best of both worlds by giving each suggestion the lower of what the two seoarate ratings would have been.

Basically, i don't think a player should have to choose between fluffy role playing and optimization. You should be able to have both, without compromising either. Which is why, as it currently stands, gloom stalker and shadow monk get top marks for shadar kai classes from me, where as shadow sorcerer or hexblade warlock, well, they just don't.

[Ganymede]

You said this...


From an optimizer's PoV, not having 16 in your class's primary stat(s) is indeed a fatal flaw.

Then I responded with this...


That's basically saying "it is a fatal flaw because it is a fatal flaw."

Guides are supposed to be evidence based and well considered, not based on what a hypothetical "optimizer" presupposes.

Then you responded with this...


That's straight up nonsense.

Not having 16 in your class's primary stat at character creation is in no way a fatal flaw, and evidences demonstrate that you can play characters with far less than that without issues.


Which is why I said that Ganymede's claim that it wasn't optimization was nonsense.

And now I'm here like, "What the hell is this guy talking about?"

Care to enlighten me how your subsequent responses had anything whatsoever to do with what I said?

[Unoriginal]

You said this...

Then I responded with this...

Then you responded with this...


And now I'm here like, "What the hell is this guy talking about?"

Care to enlighten me how your subsequent responses had anything whatsoever to do with what I said?


There was two claims:

I said "from an optimizer's PoV, ..." while talking about that kind of guides

You said that kind of guide was 'not based on what a hypothetical "optimizer" presupposes.'

I responded that, since Malisteen DID write this as an optimizer (as they admitted and didn't hide it), and it is indeed presuppositions (albeit educated ones), with all due respect to Malisteen, calling it "hypothetical" was nonsense.


Second, I said that "not having 16 in your class's primary stat(s) is indeed a fatal flaw" from the aforementioned optimizer's PoV.

To which you said it was like saying "it is a fatal flaw because it is a fatal flaw." aka claiming it was a an objective fatal flaw.

I responded that, since you can play a character with far less than 16 in your primary stat(s) just fine, as demonstrated by evidences, calling it a fatal flaw was nonsense.

A fatal flaw would be something that'd make such character impossible to play (or at least impossible to play for long).

[Sception]

This discussion hasn't been rude or hostile or anything, but it is ranging a bit far from the intended topoc of discussing the new raven queen & shadar kai, and how to get the most out of both of them in game. Now that everyone seems more or less clear on where everyone else is at in terms of balancing narrative and mechanical priorities, I'd like to get back to the topic at hand.

I'll be looking at half elves later today as a "have your cake & eat it too" solution to the cha problem, but given the nature of shadar kai souls, its not immediately clear how half elves would work on a narrative level. I have some ideas there, but I'm curious how & whether you all would work half elves into shadar-kai society from a narrative perspective.

[Unoriginal]

I can't see the Shadar-Kai accepting Half-Elves in their society.

They'd probably see a Shadar-Kai reproducing with an human as "messing with one of the souls that belongs to the Queen".

[Sception]

Try and look at it from the 'yes, and' school of improv/DMing. The goal here is "find a way to make it work", not "find a reason why it can't".

So, lets try flipping that souls bit around. SK can't actually increase their numbers on their own, since they're made from the souls the raven queen already has. In fact, over time they'd suffer gradual, irreplaceable losses, since there are effects in d&d land that destroy or imprison souls.

Perhaps then half elves could be a means of replenishing & increasing their numbers? Born with a new human soul, but tied to the raven queen by their shadar kai heritage, when they die that new soul returns to the raven queen and can then be reborn as a pureblood shadar kai.

Additionally or instead, Half Elves might even be deliberately desired in SK society as spellcasters due to their more vivid souls, not yet dimmed and dulled by prolonged exposure to the shadowfell, giving a narrative meaning to their mechanical superiority as clerics, wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks.

The raven queen might even grant humans boons in exchange for them giving her half elf children, drawing on classic fairy tales about witches granting wishes in exchange for future children, or fey stealing babies.

[Sception]

half-shadar-kai class suggestions are up. Is basically what one would expect. Is there a cha class that shadar-kai like thematically? half-shadar-kai can deliver more or less the same thematic connection, while fitting better mechanically.

[Ganymede]

There was two claims:



Yeah, you vastly misconstrued/misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't making any of those claims.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, you vastly misconstrued/misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't making any of those claims.

Then what did you mean?

[Sception]

I don't think anyone meant anything hostile in the discussion about fluff and crunch, and we all understand that everyone has different standards for how to navigate conflicts between them whenever the two aren't perfectly in sync. Please focus the threads discussion more on the 5e Raven Queen & Shadar-Kai more specifically.

[War_lord]

I don't think Shadar-Kai could reproduce, physically speaking their bodies are ancient and warped by the Shadowfel. I see no problem with the Shadar-Kai being a dying race that's very slowly attritioning into extinction, with any destroyed soul being a major loss for the species. The Shadar-Kai only leave the safety of the Shadowfel when they need something from the material plane, and even then they're going to try to avoid attention.

PC Shadar-Kai are either in the party because they're questing for something specific, or because they're one of the few Shadar-Kai who decides to leave their people.

[Sception]

Safety of the shadow fell? Apart from soul eating monsters, which if anything are more common there, shadar kai souls are immortal, so going to the material plane isnt more or less dangerous. Plus, their bodies become younger on other planes, and they're described as disliking their withered forns, so they have every reason to find excuses to visit.

As for their brand of immortality, reincarnation, and reproduction, there's no indication that it's any different from any other kind of elf (apart from possibly drow). All elves (again apart from possibly drow), have immortal souls that must be reincarnated for new elves to be born. The only difference listed so far for shadar kai is that instead of returning to avandor and the elven gods between lives, they return to the Shadowfell and their Raven Queen.

If regular elves can produce half elves from trysts with humans, and they can, there's nothing in the description of Shadar-kai that would prevent them from doing the same. Such trysts might be less common, with Shadar-kai being less prone to affection and spending less time in the natural world. So, less common than half wood elves or half high elves, but if anything probably more common than half drow, which are also canonically a thing.

And for serious, "yes, and", people. Why go out of your way to make up excuses why your players /can't/ do something that the game doesn't otherwise forbid by telling them 'half shadar kai just don't happen', when you could be fleshing out and adding interest nuance and detail currently significantly lacking in the 5e shadar kai by describing how half elves do, instead of don't fit into their culture?

[Unoriginal]

And for serious, "yes, and", people. Why go out of your way to make up excuses why your players /can't/ do something that the game doesn't otherwise forbid by telling them 'half shadar kai just don't happen', when you could be fleshing out and adding interest nuance and detail currently significantly lacking in the 5e shadar kai by describing how half elves do, instead of don't fit into their culture?

Because "yes, and" is not better than "no, but". There is thousands of "yes" in a D&D world, why would I have to police what I think makes more sense from a lore standpoint just to add one?

I don't think the Shadar-Kai would accept Half-Elves in their culture. Nothing about their mindset or habits or way of life indicates that a non-Shadar-Kai would be welcomed.

Sure, nothing prevent the Shadar-Kai from having sex with humans, but if such an event resulted in a kid, it's more likely the Shadar-Kai would have no interested in them. They're a stagnant and decaying people, not the kind to accept new things.

So sure, maybe some times an Half-Elf ask their mom or their dad who their other parent was, and get told they were a pale elf with a taste for black leather who stayed a bit, before leaving after invoking their duty toward some kind of Queen.

[War_lord]

Safety of the shadow fell? Apart from soul eating monsters, which if anything are more common there, shadar kai souls are immortal, so going to the material plane isnt more or less dangerous. Plus, their bodies become younger on other planes, and they're described as disliking their withered forns, so they have every reason to find excuses to visit.

Safety of the shadowfel, because that's where the Queen and the rest of their people are. The Raven Queen is so powerful she can hold off Vecna's armies, and the 13 Nagpa, who are CR 17 each, are terrified of her.


As for their brand of immortality, reincarnation, and reproduction, there's no indication that it's any different from any other kind of elf (apart from possibly drow). All elves (again apart from possibly drow), have immortal souls that must be reincarnated for new elves to be born. The only difference listed so far for shadar kai is that instead of returning to avandor and the elven gods between lives, they return to the Shadowfell and their Raven Queen.

The major difference is that an Elf is reincarnated in a new body. The Shadar-Kai are still walking around in the same husks they had when they stopped being High/Wood elves. They only appear young on the material due to a quirk of the shadowfel.


If regular elves can produce half elves from trysts with humans, and they can, there's nothing in the description of Shadar-kai that would prevent them from doing the same. Such trysts might be less common, with Shadar-kai being less prone to affection and spending less time in the natural world. So, less common than half wood elves or half high elves, but if anything probably more common than half drow, which are also canonically a thing.

Nothing prevents them from doing so, except, you know, that they're ancient psychopaths whose entire culture revolves around devotion to the Raven Queen whose existence is a secret to most mortals. So yeah, aside from their emotional priorities, and their lack of empathy, and the fact that they probably prize their hidden state, and the doubts around their ability to conceive. No reason.


And for serious, "yes, and", people. Why go out of your way to make up excuses why your players /can't/ do something that the game doesn't otherwise forbid by telling them 'half shadar kai just don't happen', when you could be fleshing out and adding interest nuance and detail currently significantly lacking in the 5e shadar kai by describing how half elves do, instead of don't fit into their culture?

Why do you want every race under the elf header to have the exact same culture?

[Sception]

The major difference is that an Elf is reincarnated in a new body. The Shadar-Kai are still walking around in the same husks they had when they stopped being High/Wood elves.

Nothing in MTF indicates this.


[/B]Immortal Servants.[B] The shadar-kai know that when they die, the Raven Queeen captures their souls and returns them to the Shadowfell, where they are resurrected to serve her yet again.

How exactly that works is never explained, and there's no particular reason to think it works any differently from the normal elven process, apart from where the soul goes while it waits to live again. And considering that they're a legal player race, the new shadar-kai born of the dead ones soul really should be a different person, otherwise Shadar-Kai PCs are literally immune to death, and just have a bit of travelling to do to get back to the party every time they drop.


Nothing prevents them from doing so, except, you know, that they're ancient psychopaths whose entire culture revolves around devotion to the Raven Queen whose existence is a secret to most mortals. So yeah, aside from their emotional priorities, and their lack of empathy, and the fact that they probably prize their hidden state, and the doubts around their ability to conceive. No reason.

The way Drow are ancient psychopaths whose entire culture revolves around devotion to Lolth, who while they aren't secret are universally hated and despised by all other races almost half as much as they themselves hate and despise everyone else? Additionally, shadar-kai are universally gloomy and morose, but nothing describes them as psychopathic. They aren't described as hating other elves or other life.



Why do you want every race under the elf header to have the exact same culture?

What gives you that idea? I mean, they're elves, they should share the things that are fundamental to elves. They're a sub-race, not a separate race entirely. No I don't want them to have exactly the same culture, but I do want shadar-kai to have a culture, and as an elven subrace it should be a recognizeably elven culture, and as a player race it should be a culture that allows more opportunities for interesting player characters where possible.

You seem to view them as a monster race exclusively, like neogi or mind flayers or slaad. That is not how they're presented. Neither the 5e shadar-kai nor the 5e Raven Queen are presented as exclusively or fundamentally hostile or antagonistic.

[War_lord]

Considering that the majority of complaints I hear about Elves in D&D is that they're all basically the same race with a different coat of paint. It's endlessly funny to me that you're here complaining that they need to be more like every other elven race. Did you know that the Shadar-Kai don't consider themselves Elves, as per the D&D beyond video?

Now, they have dwelled in the Shadowfell for long enough. Then in many ways, they are the least elfy of the elves. Again, I said that they are like the total opposites of Eladrin. Eladrin in some ways are the most elfy of elves and the Shadar-kai are the least elfy of elves. It's almost like they can remember their very distant ancestors who were a part of the large elven family, but the Shadar-kai would rarely even think of themselves as elves, even though they have that common ancestry. Because they have so much more now, a people of the darkness. Now, this doesn't mean that they are all dark entirely in their souls. It is possible to have a heroic Shadar-kai, particularly because the Raven Queen herself is not necessarily a force for evil.

[Unoriginal]

The Shadar-Kai have a culture. An incredibly isolationist one.

Drows are more likely to produce Half-Elves, because they actually accept contact with foreigners in some situations, not to mention the slaves they keep, and an half-elf is just one more useful slave.

The Shadar-Kai have no such thing.

[Sception]

I don't think the Shadar-Kai would accept Half-Elves in their culture. Nothing about their mindset or habits or way of life indicates that a non-Shadar-Kai would be welcomed.

There's very little we actually know about shadar-kai culture so far, but here's a relevant passage:


Shadar-kai know that those who come willingly to the Raven Queen's tower are there to beseech her for some-thing, and thus they try to prepare such visitors for what they will face. The queen's servants talk to any inquiring adventurer about the gravity of emotion, how sorrow weighs on the soul as it travels through the Shadowfell, and how best to persevere in the Raven Queen's test.

This isn't an isolationist culture, at the very least not to the point of driving away outsiders or refusing to interact with them. Rather, we explicitly see the shadar-kai going out of their way to be helpful, almost compassionate. They are not hostile to those who show the Raven Queen respect, they don't turn them away, they don't wait until the outsider has proved themselves by passing the queen's test before showing them hospitality. They are not cruel or capricious. They aren't uncaring about the fates of strangers, they don't withhold information, they want those who come before the Raven Queen to succeed, to earn her respect, to find what they were looking for, to return to their lands with tales of her benevolence.

If those outsiders should be so awed by and grateful to the Raven Queen that they would choose to stay and serve her rather than return to their own lands, these do not sound like people who would forcibly cast them out. Shadar-kai are described as curious about the strong emotions and powerful memories of other creatures, it does not seem unreasonable that such curiosity might turn to fascination and lead to more physical places. Likewise, if such a tryst between an outsider and one of the shadar-kai were to produce a child, they do not sound like a people who would cast out that child, either.

What shadar-kai are is loyal to their queen, unquestioningly so. They go and collect sadness and memories for her, and when her ravens direct them they might even tilt the course of fate towards tragic ends to create such sorrow to then collect. But they're not going to reject or cast out someone who comes before the raven queen, chooses to live among them, and willingly offers their sorrows to her.

And if the Raven Queen might have some reason to specifically desire half elven servants, few shadar-kai are going to reject the prospect of 'taking one for queen and country'. The Raven Queen and shadar-kai aren't fundamentally hostile, but they don't seem the sorts who would be overly sentimental about that prospect, and there are many reasons why half elven servants might be desirable.


Less fundamentally tied to the Shadowfell, they may be able to more comfortably carry out the Raven Queen's plans that require more long term service on the material plane.
Being naturally more outgoing and sociable, they would certainly have a better time spreading word of the Raven Queen and drawing other mortals into her influence.
With souls less dimmed by prolonged exposure to the Shadowfell, they may be more naturally potent spellcasters, using mechanical results to extrapolate a narrative hook.
With powerfully emotive, human souls, tinged with melancholy from their shadar-kai halves, they are predisposed to living lifes full of exactly the sort of powerful emotional memories that the Raven Queen so greatly desires, and since they're born connected to the Raven Queen, those souls rich with experience and memory will return directly to her on their deaths, no need to extend weighty boons to barter for them, no need to go through the bother of sending servants and expending magical resources to collect them.


In terms of narrative and thematics, the Raven Queen is mix between fey and fairy tail witches, and bartering boons now in exchange for children in the future is classic fairy tale fey/witch business, rich with narrative possibilities. half-shadar-kai give an easy hook to hang exactly that sort of business on. Perhaps a human npc hires the party to find their pale elven bride & their baby, who vanished one day, and he's sure they were kidnapped. Eventually the party find that she wasn't kidnapped, but was rather a shadar-kai woman who had been sent to the material plane by the Raven Queen to find a human father for a half elf child. Maybe she even loved the man and was heartbroken to leave him, but when the PCs find her that sorrow is completely gone, because she already offered it, along with the child, to the raven queen, who has collected many half elf children this way. Now the party has to either kidnap the child back, or barter something of their own souls and memories to the queen to get the child back, or return empty handed. Or maybe the father goes with them, and convinces the Raven Queen to let his wife and child return to the mortal world with him, and she does so, but mostly just to collect the even greater sorrow from her servant when, after living out the humans life with him, she is left to grieve his death. Or maybe the man stays there. Or maybe the father is one of the party members themselves.

And what do they do about the other half elf children? Do they even want to leave? If the party escape with them, can they actually break the bond the queen has to their souls? Why is she collecting them anyway, just because, or does she have some fate in store for them?


See, even if you're not dealing with a player who specifically wants to play a half-shadar-kai character, the very existance of half-elf shadar-kai opens up a lot of narrative possibilities, while 'they just don't exist' only closes doors.



So sure, maybe some times an Half-Elf ask their mom or their dad who their other parent was, and get told they were a pale elf with a taste for black leather who stayed a bit, before leaving after invoking their duty toward some kind of Queen.

And this also works, but let's take it further. First, why might such trysts happen? Shadar-kai on other worlds find their forms younger, without the weight of the shadow-fell their emotions are less dulled, suddenly felt more powerfully than the gloom elf is used to, comfortable with, or possibly even able to reasonably control. Maybe it's exciting. Maybe it's also a little frightening and painful. Maybe they want to experience more while they can, or need someone more used to these feelings to hold on to. Maybe these emotions still seem increadibly limited and dampened to others, mostly because the shadar-kai aren't comfortable with handling them. Regardless, maybe trysts with mortals on the material plane are a bit more common for shadar-kai than you might otherwise think, as they indulge bodies and minds that feel younger and more alive, if only temporarily and superficially. And when the tryst inevitably ends and they return heartbroken to their shadowy queen, they have a gift of that very heartbreak to offer her.

But what of that child left behind? Again, we have a half elf, expressive, emotive, temperamental, prone to living life at 110%, but again with a disposition to melancholy and a soul at least in part already bound to a queen who subtly drives them to seek out new experiences and indulge extreme emotions - not just deep sorrows but also great joys, if only so the sorrows can feel all the deeper by comparison. And all through their life, crows and ravens follow and watch and occasionally lead them towards some event or other, some task they feel subtly compelled to perform, and whisper to them in their dreams of a queen who loves them and watches them and shares in every triumph and tribulation, reliving those experiences as they sleep and drawing away their sorrows so that they wake the next day recalling whatever hurts they might have suffered the day previous, but not really feeling it anymore. Do they come to worship and revere this figure, or resent her for taking a part of them that, if painful, is still an important part of their identity?

Will they seek her out in the Shadowfell - whether to serve her directly, or else to break that bond outright so they are no longer pushed to extreme emotions in the moment, while being denied the ability to hold onto those emotions the next day? And when they do come before the queen, how do her servants view them? As just another supplicant, or are they viewed with more interest, as something disturbing or strangely hopeful, something to be pitied or detested or treated with particular respect? Will their parent be the one to prepare them for the queen's trial? Are they happy to welcome their child home, or did they hope they would have been able to life a life free from the queen's influence?


Half Elf children left behind in the natural world or stolen back to the Shadowfell to be raised among the shadar-kai don't even have to be contradictory. Both can happen. The 5e Raven Queen is, after all, a mercurial and ever shifting figure, and may have different plans in place requiring servents in different places leading different lives. Heck, there's probably some rich story to be had in half elf twins separated in infancy, one brought back to the Raven Queen by their shadar-kai parent and the other left with their human parent in the natural world. MToF tells us about Elven superstition holding that separating twins leads to 'misfortune and tragedy', but misfortune and tragedy inspire exactly the emotions and memories that the Raven Queen finds most compelling.

If you do want to play up the shadar-kai as more inherently sinister, stealing just one twin might be exactly something they'd do, and not just to half elves of shadar-kai descent. we can bring it back to that fey/witch trope again, the raven queen might offer a special boon to an human (or elf, but that would have to be a heck of a boon for an elf to agree to that) in exchange for 'their firstborn child', only for them to later have twins, with shadar-kai sneaking in during the night to take just the first of the two children back to be raised by the shadar-kai, or even by the Raven Queen herself.

And again we've got some narrative ideas not tied directly to half-shadar-kai arising from a starting position of 'they exist, so how does that work, and what implications does that have' that we might not have come to if we had just said 'half shadar kai aren't a thing'.

[Sception]

How exactly that works is never explained, and there's no particular reason to think it works any differently from the normal elven process, apart from where the soul goes while it waits to live again. And considering that they're a legal player race, the new shadar-kai born of the dead ones soul really should be a different person, otherwise Shadar-Kai PCs are literally immune to death, and just have a bit of travelling to do to get back to the party every time they drop.

Additionally, 1st level shadar-kai PCs exist. And their starting ages aren't any different from other elves. That shouldn't be the case if every single individual shadar-kai has experienced countless thousands of years of continuous, unbroken existence, rather than being a new (ish, they're still elves) creature who happens to have an ancient soul that has experienced many lifetimes before.

[War_lord]

This isn't an isolationist culture, at the very least not to the point of driving away outsiders or refusing to interact with them.

Initially, no mortals knew of her, but over the centuries, those who have journeyed to the Shadowfell and those who have encountered shadar⁠-kai in the world have seen, or heard tales of, a dark fortress, a mysterious figure surrounded by gaunt servants, and scores of seemingly sentient ravens.

The shadar⁠-kai are bound to the Raven Queen, cursed to forever serve her in the Shadowfell. They dwell in places outside the Fortress of Memories, usually too terrified of the place to enter it willingly.

Wracked with despair over the loss of memories of a brighter time, soul mongers now crave the vitality of others. The aching void within a soul monger radiates outward, manifesting as an unbearable weight that drains the vigor of anyone unfortunate enough to be in its presence. Those who have escaped the onslaught of a soul monger can hardly shake the memory of the sound it makes—the moan of a tortured soul, lost in a bottomless well of tragedy.

Those who have fought shadow⁠ dancers describe the experience as similar to fighting a living darkness⁠. Every dim alcove and darkened nook is a place from where the lithe and acrobatic shadow⁠ dancers can emerge to ambush their prey. Using this tactic, they Attack their enemies from all angles with a flurry of entangling chains that hold fast and corrupt the flesh. When their quarry is helpless, others move in to help dispatch the prey. Then they loot the corpse for trinkets, anything colorful and lively to gaze at after they return to the gloom of the Shadowfell.

Although a formidable fighter⁠, a gloom weaver is often content to remain hidden in the shadows, watching with rapt attention as its very presence affects its victims. Its dark energy weighs down the heart, causing those within its oppressive aura to feel the approach of death. This torment alone is enough to please its master, the Raven⁠ Queen, but should it be detected, a gloom weaver uses its shadow⁠ magic to reduce its enemies to ghastly corpses.

Yeah, such a friendly bunch, are you here to discuss the book or write crappy fanfic?

[Sception]

[I]
Initially, no mortals knew of her, but over the centuries, those who have journeyed to the Shadowfell and those who have encountered shadar⁠-kai in the world have seen, or heard tales of, a dark fortress, a mysterious figure surrounded by gaunt servants, and scores of seemingly sentient ravens.

The shadar⁠-kai are bound to the Raven Queen, cursed to forever serve her in the Shadowfell. They dwell in places outside the Fortress of Memories, usually too terrified of the place to enter it willingly.

Nothing here implies inherent hostility to outsiders, who, again, the book explicitly describes them as being helpful towards.

As for the rest, they're monster descriptions. Monster descriptions specifically of Soul Mongers, Shadow Dancers, and Gloom Weavers, three things PC shadar-kai cannot be. The shadar-kai can absolutely be characterized and used exclusively as monsters and enemies, but that characterization is not forced on you as a DM or on your players. Yes, at the very least some shadar-kai are entirely lost to the darkness of the shadowfell and become hostile to all life. As the DM you are certainly free to decide that they all have done so, but in making that decision you're choosing to ignore the parts of their published fluff that explicitly contradict that, and your closing the door to your players playing shadar-kai as anything other than self-imposed exiles from their culture, a la good aligned outcast drow.

From your own quote earlier: "the Raven Queen herself is not necessarily a force for evil."

or from the book,

"A few sages have postulated that the Raven Queen's purpose is of greater importance, that she serves as a filter of sorts, cleansing souls that cling to fear and pain, forcing them to confront their unfinished business so that they are freed of their mortal baggage and can rise to explore higher planes of existence."

The book leaves the degree of malevolence of both the shadar-kai and the Raven Queen as an open question, something up to the DM and players to work out. The refusal to provide any answers on that front not only leaves considerable contradiction in their description, but also leaves of their culture and lives basically non-existent. If they are a part of your campaign beyond being a one off monster encounter, you'll have to fill that stuff in yourself.

I am suggesting ways of filling in those gaps that provide opportunities for pcs and npcs, hooks for adventures and adventurers. From the first posting, I've been clear that I'd be throwing up homebrew in this thread, both crunch and lore wise, in addition to discussing what very little has actually been published about the 5e shadar-kai thus far. As with including discussion from an optimization perspective, the fact that this thread would include and invite 'crappy fanfic' was there from the start.

[War_lord]

You've presented this nonsense about half Shadar-Kai as being logical speculation is what the problem is. And you seem hell bent on ignoring everything in the book that flatly contradicts that "speculation". I suspect it's because you're bitter about the 5e Raven Queen not being designed as a campaign derailing interventionist. And the "Shadar-Kai are welcoming to outsiders" line is your attempt to creep that back in there. The Shadar-Kai foes in the monster section are not presented as in any way "rogue elements", they're a part of the Shadar-Kai, who are, as whole, described as fanatical.

If you presented it as just your bad homebrew, maybe I'd care less. But you seem quite determined to lie about that and present your "conclusions" as having a logical basis in the text.

[Sception]

Shadar-kai being non-hostile, even outright helpful, to outsiders who come to their home seeking boons from the Raven Queen is flat out canon. Any reading of them in 5e that adheres to that canon, even one that reads them as outright monsters, needs to account for that (probably by leaning on their fear of her).

So to with the Raven Queen as an interventionist figure. She actively sends servants out to collect sorrows, ensnares souls of the departed, and assigns tasks to temporarily slain heroes to carry out on her behalf in the waking world after their allies return them to life. While she's undeniably a more passive figure than her 4e counterpart, I'm surprised that you can come away from MToF with the impression that the Raven Queen is 'non-interventionist'. "Those who seriously study the arcane - warlocks, wizards, sorcerers, and the like - know that her effect on the world is farther-reaching than that."

[Unoriginal]

You said that you were taking a look at the Shadar-Kai & Raven Queen and at "some ideas" to expand them. That's not really saying "this is homebrew, guys."

As for the Shadar-Kai, aside from giving some advice to those who seek their Queen, they're mostly apathetic to outsiders. They're certainly not seeking them out or going to other places on their own volition, which is pretty isolationist.

[Sception]

You said that you were taking a look at the Shadar-Kai & Raven Queen and at "some ideas" to expand them. That's not really saying "this is homebrew, guys."

but it is saying "this will include homebrew". You're not going to expand on published material without introducing additional material, and material introduced outside of official channels is, by definition, homebrew. The very word homebrew has been used in the sketched outlines of the initial posts since I started this thread.


As for the Shadar-Kai, aside from giving some advice to those who seek their Queen, they're mostly apathetic to outsiders. They're certainly not seeking them out or going to other places on their own volition, which is pretty isolationist.

Even just 'apathetic to outsiders' is already a pretty dramatic contradiction of the behavior described in the shadar-kai monster profiles. I'm not the one introducing that contradiction, it's there in the text. And it's a pretty fundamental contradiction that any attempt to inject detail into their sketchy and vague lore in MToF is unavoidably going to exacerbate. At some point, you're going to have to answer the fundamental question of 'are shadar-kai people, or are they monsters'. Any answer to that, even something as non-committal as 'both' or 'it varies from individual to individual or community to community' is going to run up against the bits of their existing lore that seem to describe them pretty exclusively as one or the other.

'Apathetic to outsiders' also describes an attitude not far removed from how most surface elves react to strangers, and is dramatically less hostile than the default disposition of the Drow, who none the less interact heavily with others, albeit in a mostly antagonistic faction.

And before you say the shadar-kai just don't... don't they though? Nothing in their description says they do, so answering no is perfectly valid. But what would that then imply? Shadar-kai still need to eat. They still need shelters. Do they have farmers, butchers, bakers? Architects, and artists? If they don't trade for materials, do they have their own quarries to collect their own stone to build shelters? Or are shadar-kai shelters simpler and less permanent, tents or thatched houses?

They use metal weapons, so do they have blacksmiths? Miners? Is there Shadar-kai agriculture? Shadar-kai bankers? They're described as acting out a sad parody of their pre-fall society, but that in and of itself implies a society, something more that hunter-gatherer behavior. Something with differentiated labor, probably tiered social hierarchy of some kind. Are there shadar-kai nobility? A priestly class charged with interpreting the Raven Queens cryptic signs and portents? They have "communities" and "lands", both plural. How far do those extend? How many shadar-kai are there? Was their society a small city of several hundred, or a nation of hundreds of thousands before their fall? If there are multiple shadar-kai communities, do they trade with each other, even if they don't with non shadar-kai? Do they have different hierarchies, who interpret the raven queen's portents in different ways, have different views of her role, and consequently their own, and different attitudes towards outsiders?

MToF has answers for none of this. That's all stuff for you to fill in, with no right or wrong answers. So either your shadar-kai live in small subsistence communities when not being sent on missions, or else they do actually trade with others (which doesn't contradict anything in their lore up apart from arguably the monster descriptions, and shadar-kai are explicitly stated to barter with outsiders in the case of obtaining silt from the river Styx, though admittedly that has to be more one of situations rather than anything approaching regular 'trade'), or else they actively raid for food and raw materials making them more like drow or orcs, or else they have at least one fully self sustaining culture of their own including farmers and architects and priests and the like, in which case warriors and soul hunters like those in the monster descriptions by necessity would be a small and specialized group within that society.

Unless you think 'Soul Weavers' and 'Gloom Mongers' have day jobs. :p

Any of that's valid, and I plan on suggesting a few different takes on it, but any potential answers to these questions that I suggest will by necessity be 100% homebrew arse-pull, because what else could they be?