"Divine Spellcasting Class" - meaning?

[schreier]

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum before, but I just noticed an interesting phrasing in a prestige class. I was looking at the Sacred Fist - it says:

"When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells before he added the prestige class."

It specifically says "spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells" ... if that is the definition, that would seem to allow an arcane class that has the ability to cast divine spells. If you have a Rainbow Servant - any cleric spells that are not on an arcane list are cast as divine. Similarly, Alternative Spell Source lets you cast a spell as divine.

The relevant language is:
Rainbow Servant:
"Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don't appear on the sorcerer/ wizard or bard spell lists."

Alternative Source Spell:
"You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells. An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were I level lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard."

It seems pretty clear to me (unless I'm missing something) that a wizard 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 should be able to take Sacred Fist, since Rainbow Servant effectively converts the wizard level into a divine AND arcane class. I am less sure about the Alternative Source spell, but I do not know why.



The phrasing on Sacred Fist is different than some other classes - such as Contemplative which says:
"If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a contemplative, the player must decide which class to assign each level of contemplative for the purpose of determining divine spells per day and spells known. If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric."

That doesn't define divine spellcasting class at all.

They both list "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" so it could be argued that they are intended to be the same, and Sacred Fist has the more detailed description. Or it could be said that the Sacred Fist phrasing is uniquely related to that class.

[Karl Aegis]

Generally speaking, the class will identify which kind of spell it can cast in its Spells entry. If it doesn't you're probably in a poorly edited book like Complete Divine and have to guess which kind of spells you cast based on context clues like the Blighter.

[schreier]

Are you talking about the base class (wizard) or the prestige class (blighter)? If it just says spellcasting class, it should be either, but I am trying to define when it says divine or arcane. In the case of sacred fist, it seems to define divine as able to cast divine spells. If that is the case, does a traditional arcane class (i.e. wizard) with rainbow servant qualify as a divine spellcasting class? In sacred fist, I would say yes. But that phrasing is not used in other classes so I don't know.

[Nifft]

Generally speaking, the class will identify which kind of spell it can cast in its Spells entry. If it doesn't you're probably in a poorly edited book like Complete Divine and have to guess which kind of spells you cast based on context clues like the Blighter.

Yep, this.

Take a look at the Cleric:



Spells

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to (...)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm


Since the Rainbow Servant lets you cast as a Cleric, and Cleric is clearly defined as casting divine spells, I think that Rainbow Servant 10 would allow you to count your previous arcane casting class as a divine casting class.


Alternative Spell Source doesn't give you divine spellcasting -- you get no divine spell list, for example -- but it does give you the ability to cast divine spells. You could use Alternative Spell Source to qualify for early access to Mystic Theurge, for example as a Cleric 1 / Wizard 3 -- but you couldn't use it to tag an arcane casting class as divine casting for advancement.

[schreier]

That's where I would come down too I think - Rainbow Servant 10 allows an arcane class to count as divine for prestige classes.

I am curious about spontaneous vs prepared as well - I would assume that something like "Spontaneous Divination ACF" for Wizards lets them qualify for a prestige class requiring spontaneous casting, but Uncanny Forethought would not.

[Nifft]

I am curious about spontaneous vs prepared as well - I would assume that something like "Spontaneous Divination ACF" for Wizards lets them qualify for a prestige class requiring spontaneous casting, but Uncanny Forethought would not.

I wouldn't allow either.

Clerics and Druids can do spontaneous conversion, yet they are both prepared casters. Spontaneous conversion is what Spontaneous Divination does, too. Conversion isn't the same as casting (apparently, somehow).

[Arael666]

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum before, but I just noticed an interesting phrasing in a prestige class. I was looking at the Sacred Fist - it says:

"When a new sacred fist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells before he added the prestige class."

It specifically says "spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells" ... if that is the definition, that would seem to allow an arcane class that has the ability to cast divine spells. If you have a Rainbow Servant - any cleric spells that are not on an arcane list are cast as divine. Similarly, Alternative Spell Source lets you cast a spell as divine.

The relevant language is:
Rainbow Servant:
"Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don't appear on the sorcerer/ wizard or bard spell lists."

Alternative Source Spell:
"You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells. An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were I level lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard."

It seems pretty clear to me (unless I'm missing something) that a wizard 5 / Rainbow Servant 10 should be able to take Sacred Fist, since Rainbow Servant effectively converts the wizard level into a divine AND arcane class. I am less sure about the Alternative Source spell, but I do not know why.



The phrasing on Sacred Fist is different than some other classes - such as Contemplative which says:
"If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a contemplative, the player must decide which class to assign each level of contemplative for the purpose of determining divine spells per day and spells known. If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric."

That doesn't define divine spellcasting class at all.

They both list "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" so it could be argued that they are intended to be the same, and Sacred Fist has the more detailed description. Or it could be said that the Sacred Fist phrasing is uniquely related to that class.

If you wanna go that deep into RAW (because the RAI is mostly pretty obvious regarding this issue) I would have to say no. The text specifically requires a "spellcasting class in which he could cast divine spells", thus the class itself should be able to cast divine spells. Just because you got a class feature from a prestige class of a feat does not mean that the wizard class is able to cast divine spells, your character is able to.

[schreier]

Sacred fist phrases it in a way that seems to clearly includes a wizard with rainbow servant. Others are more ambiguous.

At least that's how I read it

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sacred fist phrases it in a way that seems to clearly includes a wizard with rainbow servant. Others are more ambiguous.

At least that's how I read it

Not quite right: the wizard needs to learn any cleric spell not on the Wiz/Sorc or Bard lists before taking their first level in Sacred Fist for it to be 100% RAW legal.

Edit: Sorry, you need 2+ of those at 1st specifically, then you are good to go. And yes, I know people this pedantic.

[death390]

unfortunately the specifics of what you are asking are not explicitly stated so it changes from game to game, DM to DM. the PHB (3.0 or 3.5 can't remember which) has the term spellcaster defined as a character who casts spells, but the specifics end there (might be in rules compendium but it if full of ****e and more problems than it fixes).

a spellcasting class is undefined nevermined divine or arcane specific.

for some as long as the class grants spells per day or spellcasting in any form, including +level of spellcasting class, it is a spellcasting class. by that logic mystic theurge is both a divine AND a arcane spellcasting class.

others believe that a spellcasting class must give you litteral slots and spellcasting ability similar to the base classes. this limits prestige classes to those that also do this like; assasin, ur-priest, beholder mage, ect.

short answer ask your GM. long answer there is no answer so ask your GM. beware if YOU are a GM that allowing the first possibility could create either an infinite loop (mystic theurge progressing itself AND a divine/ arcane repeatedly until spellcasting 10 is used) or other abuse. as long as you disallow abuse i personally see no reason to make the distinction since you don't get the class features from the other class advancement. i mean honestly is pulling and eldritch theurge + mystic theurge combo to advance invocations, ET features, and arcane spellcasting really that problematic?

[Karl Aegis]

Generally speaking, if a class has neither a caster level, a casting stat, spells per day nor a spell list the class is not a spellcasting class.

[schreier]

We're definitely starting to focus more on the prestige classes that advance spellcasting - I definitely agree that those are not spellcasting classes, but advance spellcasting still.

The question is:

What is a divine class vs an arcane? Spontaneous vs prepared

Based on the sacred fist description, it seems like that ability to cast divine spells is what a divine spellcasting class -- but that could just apply to that one class. If the ability to cast divine is all you need - then a wizard with rainbow servant would seem to qualify.

Similarly divine vs prepared - can a feat (uncanny forethough) or ACF (spontaneous divination) or even a primary class feature (cleric's ability to cast cure spells spontaneously) qualify?

[Karl Aegis]

Again, the class will tell you what mechanics it is using in the description of their class features.