Breath weapons?

[retaliation08]

Are the breath weapons of dragons physiological?

How does that relate to breath weapons from other features like draconic feats or dragonfire adepts?

[PhantasyPen]

Honest Answer? Magic

I've always considered the dragons' breath weapons (and those that imitate them) an expression of the inherent magical power found within all of dragonkind, manifested onto the physical world through the elemental power of the dragon species in question. This is why there are different types, and why breath weapons are Supernatural abilities. If they were physiological they would be Extraordinary abilities.

[Nifft]

Are the breath weapons of dragons physiological? Since the SRD is obviously private now thanks to the death of Net Neutrality, and you can't look it up yourself due to cable company slow-lanes, I'll quote the SRD for you here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm


Breath Weapon (Su)

It's explicitly supernatural. Is that what you mean by "physiological"?



How does that relate to breath weapons from other features like draconic feats or dragonfire adepts? I think those are also supernatural.

[Uncle Pine]

AFB, but Draconomicon has a whole chapter about draconic anatomy which also answers your question about dragons. As far as feats and classes that grant breath weapons, I'd say you simply grow glands similar to ones naturally owned by dragons but that's just my take on it. If you use a spell, then it's just magic.

[retaliation08]

No, I meant what is actually happening? Could a red dragon digest stone with its brimstone belly?

[retaliation08]

If you use a spell, then it's just magic.

The Draconic Breath feat is fueled by arcane spell slots. Would that be less anatomical?

[BowStreetRunner]

No, I meant what is actually happening? Could a red dragon digest stone with its brimstone belly?

The Draconomicon has a whole section dedicated to Dragon Physiology that covers these questions. It even states "A dragon can literally eat rock or dirt and survive." (Page 10)

[retaliation08]

The Draconomicon has a whole section dedicated to Dragon Physiology that covers these questions. It even states "A dragon can literally eat rock or dirt and survive." (Page 10)

Interesting. That seems less than supernatural to me. However, It doesnt seem like a DFA etc. would share this anatomy by virtue of class or feat. I'll have to check that out in the book. AFB currently.

[Uncle Pine]

Since the SRD is obviously private now thanks to the death of Net Neutrality, and you can't look it up yourself due to cable company slow-lanes, I'll quote the SRD for you here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

It's explicitly supernatural. Is that what you mean by "physiological"?


I think those are also supernatural.


Interesting. That seems less than supernatural to me. However, It doesnt seem like a DFA etc. would share this anatomy by virtue of class or feat. I'll have to check that out in the book. AFB currently.
Supernatural and physiological can go hand in hand in d&d. For example, when know A LOT about the anatomy of beholders from LoM, but most of that id hardly not supernatural.

Back to the dragons, I believe the most sensible interpretation would be that DFA share the glands that let dragons eject fire (or acid, or stuff) from their mouths. That doesn't mean they also have digestive tracts that are as strong as that of a real dragon.

I would group Draconic Breath together with spells in the "does it make you grow draconic anatomy?" discussion, but I could see an argument about it making you grow partially functional glands that can only be activated if you fuel them with spells.

[Nifft]

Supernatural and physiological can go hand in hand in d&d

You're not the person who can answer what the OP meant by "physiological", but you're right that in D&D there's no necessary conflict between "it's magic" and body parts.

From the OP's tone, it did seem like the OP thought there was a conflict between "it's magic" and "physiological".

If your guess is correct about what the OP meant, then there's no particular conflict -- spells & supernatural class abilities might as well give you whatever you need to do the supernatural thing.

[DrMotives]

So, how does alternate form intersect with breath weapon? It's not weird for SLAs to work in alternate form, but breath weapons it seems weird. I can't find rules that back this up though.

[Uncle Pine]

You're not the person who can answer what the OP meant by "physiological", but you're right that in D&D there's no necessary conflict between "it's magic" and body parts.

From the OP's tone, it did seem like the OP thought there was a conflict between "it's magic" and "physiological".

If your guess is correct about what the OP meant, then there's no particular conflict -- spells & supernatural class abilities might as well give you whatever you need to do the supernatural thing.
Maybe, but I can answer what physiological means (which is anything pertaining the normal functioning of an organism) and clear possible doubts the OP may have on the supernatural/magic Vs physiological.


So, how does alternate form intersect with breath weapon? It's not weird for SLAs to work in alternate form, but breath weapons it seems weird. I can't find rules that back this up though.
Alternate Form explicitly says how it works with breath weapons:

The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

I remember the clause being more explicit somewhere (something along the line of "except for those based on body parts of the original creature, such as breath weapons and gaze attacks"), but I can't really find that at the moment. We're talking breath weapons here though, so this will suffice.
Considering that you retain feats but not physical features of your original form while in alternate form, if we go back to the Draconic Breath example you could either rule that the benefit provided by the feat is entirely magical and not related to anatomy (so you breathing fire is not different from using spell slots to shoot a fireball for which you don't need extra appendages) OR that the anatomical differences carry over to the new form explicitly because they're granted by a feat (similar to a warforged with Adamantine Body, which retains its plating in every form).

[Nifft]

Maybe, but I can answer what physiological means (which is anything pertaining the normal functioning of an organism) and clear possible doubts the OP may have on the supernatural/magic Vs physiological.

The normal functioning of a D&D organism is often quite supernatural in its nature.

What is supernatural in D&D can also be what is natural.

There is no "supernatural vs. physiological".

[Uncle Pine]

Supernatural and physiological can go hand in hand in d&d. For example, when know A LOT about the anatomy of beholders from LoM, but most of that id hardly not supernatural.


The normal functioning of a D&D organism is often quite supernatural in its nature.

What is supernatural in D&D can also be what is natural.

There is no "supernatural vs. physiological".
I'm glad we agree on the matter, although it took a slight detour for it to be evident (to you).

[Nifft]

I'm glad we agree on the matter, although it took a slight detour for it to be evident.

Yeah it was weird how you tried to answer for the OP and then combat against a stance that apparently isn't averse to one of your own.

But it's a bit of an irrelevant derail because the opinion that matters here is that of the OP.


Now that's done: Hey @retaliation08, you need to give more detail on what you mean by physiological.

[retaliation08]

Yeah it was weird how you tried to answer for the OP and then combat against a stance that apparently isn't averse to one of your own.

But it's a bit of an irrelevant derail because the opinion that matters here is that of the OP.


Now that's done: Hey @retaliation08, you need to give more detail on what you mean by physiological.

Well redefining physiological won't do much good, but i'll give a couple examples.
I am particularly interested in the function of breath weapons in alternate form.

I was curious if there was a specific part of dragon anatomy (fuel/acid glands, extra stomach etc.) that are responsible for the breath weapon independently of arcane magic.

The second part was me wondering that if we assumed such anatomy was necessary, how we could explain alternate forms having breath weapons when, in most cases, the new form would lack the required anatomy.

[Remuko]

Well redefining physiological won't do much good, but i'll give a couple examples.
I am particularly interested in the function of breath weapons in alternate form.

I was curious if there was a specific part of dragon anatomy (fuel/acid glands, extra stomach etc.) that are responsible for the breath weapon independently of arcane magic.

The second part was me wondering that if we assumed such anatomy was necessary, how we could explain alternate forms having breath weapons when, in most cases, the new form would lack the required anatomy.

Someone already answered this. You cant.


The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

[retaliation08]

Someone already answered this. You cant.

Yes I saw that. I should have said: "How then do we explain nondragon creatures (namely humanoids) having breath weapons."

It seems like people are either saying that these humanoids develop the prerequisite anatomy (or something functionallt similar) or it is handwaved as being considered magic, as inexplicable as anything else.

I was hoping someone could point to printed text with an answer.

[Necroticplague]

Yes I saw that. I should have said: "How then do we explain nondragon creatures (namely humanoids) having breath weapons."
The same way you explain nondragon creatures having any other magic abilities: because the rules say so. You don't need a special organ attached to your heart to breath energy.

[Nifft]

The same way you explain nondragon creatures having any other magic abilities: because the rules say so. You don't need a special organ attached to your heart to breath energy.

Yep, this.

Additionally: if you decide that you do need a special organ, then the magic spell or class feature gives you that organ.

[Uncle Pine]

If you want to explore the unexplained (by RAW) fluff behind everything but dragons and presumably dragonlike creatures having breath weapons and toy around developing your own answers for a possible campaign you may want to have a look here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreathWeapon) (disclaimer: TV Tropes link).

[retaliation08]

Thanks @Uncle Pine. I was starting to feel like the kid asking "why?" And being dismissed as "Just because."

[ShurikVch]

Note:
The draconis fundamentum (7) is a gland possessed only by true dragons. Attached to the heart, it is the center of elemental activity inside the dragon's body. All blood flowing from the heart passes through this organ before going to the body. The draconis fundamentum charges the lungs with power for a dragon's breath weapon and also plays a major role in the dragon's highly efficient metabolism, which converts the vast majority of whatever the creature consumes into usable energy.See - it says "possessed only by true dragons"
Thus, for lesser dragons it's a big no-no, and for non-Dragons it's at least unclear

Also, check the Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#dragonGold) Bloodlines: Major Bloodlines for Gold, Red, and Silver Dragons are all give Breath Weapon... But it's (Ex) - thus should depend on body rather than magic

[Nifft]

Note:See - it says "possessed only by true dragons" Therefore, you ought to be a Dragonwrought Kobold Dragonfire Adept.

That's a character who might have Dragontouched him- or her-self.



Also, check the Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#dragonGold) Bloodlines: Major Bloodlines for Gold, Red, and Silver Dragons are all give Breath Weapon... But it's (Ex) - thus should depend on body rather than magic

Bloodlines are such a midden heap.

The SRD true dragons all have (Su) breath weapons.