[3.5] Favored Soul Sand Shaper

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just wondering, how would you get a straight classed Favored Soul to qualify for a one level dip into Sand Shaper?

The dip is pretty much purely for Desert Insight, to add a bunch of spells known.

The sticking point, as far as I can tell, is the req of "Arcane caster level 5th".

You can use SLAs to qualify, but I believe most SLAs (other than Invocations) are defined as neither arcane nor divine.

Would the Southern Magician feat give a divine caster an "arcane caster level"?

All ideas welcomed, so long as they are "official" 3.0 or 3.5, excluding Dragon Magazine.

I'm the DM. Looking for a RAW solution, if possible.

Cheers - T

[Vizzerdrix]

Have you tried just asking the DM? It is what Id do first. Otherwise Southser Magician may be your best bet.

[remetagross]

Being a Silverbrow Human, since they get 1/day Feather Fall, CL = HD, and Feather Fall is Wizards-only?

[Troacctid]

Would the Southern Magician feat give a divine caster an "arcane caster level"?
It would not.

I don't think there's a way to accomplish what you want without dipping. I'm afraid you'll have to talk to the DM.

[TotallyNotEvil]

+1 for asking the DM. It's a trivial allowance.

[Thurbane]

Have you tried just asking the DM? It is what Id do first. Otherwise Southser Magician may be your best bet.


It would not.

I don't think there's a way to accomplish what you want without dipping. I'm afraid you'll have to talk to the DM.


+1 for asking the DM. It's a trivial allowance.

I'm the DM. I like to do things by RAW if at all possible. :smallwink:


Being a Silverbrow Human, since they get 1/day Feather Fall, CL = HD, and Feather Fall is Wizards-only?


SLAs sometimes state "as a sorcerer" or "as a wizard". Would that count for arcane?

I'll look into both of those, thanks.

Actually, I made a thread related to this a while back, I should look at that too: [3.5] Arcane Caster Level - Without Casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477696)

[Thurbane]

Random thought: would UMDing the Codex Advocare work? It's a magic tome from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that gives a Warlock (or DFA) an extra least invocation known.

If you were considered to have a least invocation, you'd have an arcane caster level, I believe.

It's a very costly and highly questionable solution...assuming it works at all.

[Troacctid]

I'm the DM. I like to do things by RAW if at all possible. :smallwink:
In that case I do not believe it is possible.


I'll look into both of those, thanks.

Actually, I made a thread related to this a while back, I should look at that too: [3.5] Arcane Caster Level - Without Casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477696)
A spell-like ability that functions as a wizard spell isn't necessarily arcane. It just means it uses the wizard version of the spell. For example, what level spell is tongues? 2nd (bard), 3rd (wizard/sorcerer), or 4th (cleric)?

In order for the SLA to be arcane (or divine, or psionic) in nature, it would need to say so specifically, as in the case of warlocks. Either that or the DM would need to take a broader interpretation of what counts as an arcane or divine spell—which is not totally unsupported by the text, but there would be other ramifications if you read it that way.


Random thought: would UMDing the Codex Advocare work? It's a magic tome from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, that gives a Warlock (or DFA) an extra least invocation known.

If you were considered to have a least invocation, you'd have an arcane caster level, I believe.

It's a very costly and highly questionable solution...assuming it works at all.
UMD is pretty clear that it lets you emulate a class feature to activate the item. But the item's activation doesn't require invocations. A non-warlock can already activate it just fine, no UMD required. It just won't do anything.

[Thurbane]

The MM and SRD version of Duergar says this about it's SLAs:


Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person and invisibility as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd); these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries.

Would the "as a wizard" clause make the SLA arcane?

[Troacctid]

That's the "broader interpretation of what counts as an arcane or divine spell" that I mentioned.

[Darrin]

A spell-like ability that functions as a wizard spell isn't necessarily arcane. It just means it uses the wizard version of the spell. For example, what level spell is tongues? 2nd (bard), 3rd (wizard/sorcerer), or 4th (cleric)?


The MM/SRD addresses this:

"A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

Based on this text, I feel that SLAs default to "arcane" unless they appear exclusively on a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger list, in which case this makes them "divine". My understanding is a silverbrow human (Dragon Magic) with 5 levels of Favored Soul would qualify for Sandshaper, as their feather fall SLA gives them an arcane CL of 5. Fluff-wise, silverbrow humans have draconic ancestry via the dragonblood subtype, and dragons are supposed to be innately arcane spellcasters.

I've seen people argue that SLAs are neither arcane or divine unless the text explicitly says so, but I call monkeysnot on that point.

[PhantasyPen]

Wasn't there that Alternative Spell Source feat or whatever I always see people tossing around?

[Just Caker]

You can use duergar as the race. It's SLA is explicitly called out as being at the CL of a wizard of twice it's class level. Of course, this isn't ideal for a favored soul as a race.

[Troacctid]

The MM/SRD addresses this:

"A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

Based on this text, I feel that SLAs default to "arcane" unless they appear exclusively on a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger list, in which case this makes them "divine". My understanding is a silverbrow human (Dragon Magic) with 5 levels of Favored Soul would qualify for Sandshaper, as their feather fall SLA gives them an arcane CL of 5. Fluff-wise, silverbrow humans have draconic ancestry via the dragonblood subtype, and dragons are supposed to be innately arcane spellcasters.

I've seen people argue that SLAs are neither arcane or divine unless the text explicitly says so, but I call monkeysnot on that point.
Yes, again, I talked about this, that's the broader interpretation that carries other ramifications.

The topic is covered in more detail in Complete Mage.