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Afgncaap5
2018-05-23, 07:12 PM
So... we all know it's a "thing" that sometimes monsters or villains or mythical beings or creatures of the fair folk will challenge heroes with brain teasers. But... I'm actually struggling to come up with many solid examples.

1) The Sphinx, obviously. One single sphinx asks a riddle on the way to Thebes, and suddenly it's all they're known for (not that that's a problem, it's just interesting that they went from "general guardian creatures" to "riddlers and philosophers" so easily.)

2) The Minotaur, known to his friends as Asterion, perhaps more understandably fits this mold since there was only one of him (in the original story, at least), and it did, in fact, lair in the labyrinthian labyrinth. Possibly worth noting that the Minotaur didn't create the maze, but as it was his "lair" it's understood that he came to know it, so when you have multiples it's understandable that this trait gets associated with them as well.

And... that's it? Are there any others that I'm missing? Because I definitely feel like this is more of a "thing" than the evidence of two monsters suggests. Would I find dozens more if I was more familiar with eastern folklore and myths than western? Is my belief that this is a recurring thing in classical mythology just ill-founded? Oh, and before I stop listing things...

-Honorable Mention-

3) I don't really feel this is the same "kind" of thing, but the "generic cryptic riddle-asker" figure probably deserves a mention. You know the type. Typically stands at a rickety bridge and asks cryptic riddles. May or may not speak in rhyme ("Answer me these questions three, if th' other side ye wish to see!") and that sort. However, this figure is definitely not a "monster" in the traditionally understood sense. However... the prototype for this kind of thing may well be the Norse god Odin, who often wandered as a mysterious wight through the world, wearing a hood and playing what tricks he would on people. He took what knowledge and wisdom whenever he could to prep for the end of the world, and engaged in riddle and trivia competitions to the death (setting a decent precedent for a certain Mr. Baggins, also known for asking potentially unreasonable questions that the competitor wouldn't have a shot at answering.) On the one hand, I don't feel like he's a "puzzle monster". On the other hand, he's definitely "not human", and like the previously mentioned examples of Theban Sphinx and Asterion, you basically have a case where one creature sets the tone for the rest of literature to follow.

So... apart from these three, are there others you can think of? Or is that, uh... is that it?

Darth Ultron
2018-05-23, 07:34 PM
Riddles are an important part of Norse Mythology, and in particular Odin is a fan of riddle games to the DEATH. This is also the inspiration for the riddle battle in The Hobbit between Gollum and Bilbo, down to the unanswerable question.

It's also common in myths and fairy tales.

The vast majority of ancient heroes outsmart their foes much more often then just attack them. Odysseus is a great example, but you can find similar myths everywhere.

More modern Indiana Jones is full of these .

Afgncaap5
2018-05-23, 07:50 PM
It's also common in myths and fairy tales.

The vast majority of ancient heroes outsmart their foes much more often then just attack them. Odysseus is a great example, but you can find similar myths everywhere.

More modern Indiana Jones is full of these .

Aye, but what I'm wondering is, apart from my 3 examples of Sphinx, Minotaur, and Odin, are there any other monsters "known" for this kind of thing that I'm just leaving out. Like, "The Kalicantzari* is a kind of fairy/goblin thing most commonly associated with rebuses" or something.

For instance, it's not quite a puzzle or riddle, but thinking more I might associate the Jabberwock (not a mythological monster, but it's at least public domain) with ciphers. He didn't present one as a challenge, but Alice initially encountered his poem in reverse script. (Granted, it was right-ways script for the mirror land residents, but... you know what I mean.)


*The Kalicantzari aren't associated with that, they're associated with ruining yule-tide parties. I didn't want to make up a monster name, though.

Cespenar
2018-05-24, 02:45 AM
-Death itself?

-On the same vein, the devil himself? Or maybe a higher up demon. Possibly with some twists.

Brother Oni
2018-05-24, 06:45 AM
I've found a number of the honourable mentions type of riddle asker (the story of King Vikram and the Baital for example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baital_Pachisi)), but the only other creature I've found known for asking riddles are bridge trolls as in 'The Three Billy Goats Gruff' style troll.

In the Witcher series, which is derived from Slavic folklore, these trolls maintained their bridges and were tolerated as their tolls were a pittance of what it could cost the local villages and lords to maintain the bridge themselves.

Edit: Hmm, the final riddle the Baital asks is a stumper: in the aftermath of a war, a father and son find and rescue a woman and her daughter. They bring the two women home and in time, the son marries the woman and they have a son, while the father marries the daughter and they have a daughter. What is the relationship between the two newborn children?

I suspect redneck style banjo twanging is not an acceptable answer. :smalltongue:

Afgncaap5
2018-05-24, 05:51 PM
Actually, "Bridge Troll" is just about perfect. It's typically done as more of a physical challenge than a mental one, but it fits that style of confrontation. Also, using Death Itself works since the "you can challenge Death to a game" thing is one of the common things said about him.

And as for Baital's riddle... I'm not sure yet, and I'm too stubborn to Google it. :-P I feel like this kind of thing usually revolves around playing the shell game with pronouns (ie., "Ah, but the son has BECOME a father, so he marries the first woman's daughter as previously stated, meaning the new son and daughter are siblings!") or through some unknown piece of information such as a previously existing relationship between the characters that isn't disclosed. Nothing along those lines is ringing true for me, though, so I'll have to think on this further.

Cespenar
2018-05-25, 02:07 AM
Edit: Hmm, the final riddle the Baital asks is a stumper: in the aftermath of a war, a father and son find and rescue a woman and her daughter. They bring the two women home and in time, the son marries the woman and they have a son, while the father marries the daughter and they have a daughter. What is the relationship between the two newborn children?

I suspect redneck style banjo twanging is not an acceptable answer. :smalltongue:

Nice brainteaser.

Joke answer: Complicated. :smalltongue:

Answer: If you follow one line, they are step-uncle and step-niece, but if you follow the second line, they are step-nephew and step-aunt. So the answer would be both, or either.

"Sensible" answer: I think "step-cousin" could have been a choice IRL because it solves the two-answer problem while being close to the spirit of the result.

Brother Oni
2018-05-25, 02:34 AM
Nice brainteaser.

Joke answer: Complicated. :smalltongue:

Answer: If you follow one line, they are step-uncle and step-niece, but if you follow the second line, they are step-nephew and step-aunt. So the answer would be both, or either.

"Sensible" answer: I think "step-cousin" could have been a choice IRL because it solves the two-answer problem while being close to the spirit of the result.

That seems like the right answer to me as well.

Digging into it further, in the original riddle, the woman and daughter were a queen and princess, so here's an alternate question; if the king (ie the queen's former husband) is now dead, which one of the newborn children has a greater claim to the throne?

*Game of Thrones cello music*

:smalltongue:

Cespenar
2018-05-25, 03:31 AM
That seems like the right answer to me as well.

Digging into it further, in the original riddle, the woman and daughter were a queen and princess, so here's an alternate question; if the king is now dead, which one of the newborn children has a greater claim to the throne?

*Game of Thrones cello music*

:smalltongue:

That also depends on if the succession law is seniority, primogeniture, ultimogeniture, or gavelkind.

Oops, spilled a bit of CK2 there, sorry about that. :smalltongue:

Satinavian
2018-05-25, 04:04 AM
Digging into it further, in the original riddle, the woman and daughter were a queen and princess, so here's an alternate question; if the king is now dead, which one of the newborn children has a greater claim to the throne?Let's assume that with "King" you mean the older of the two guys in the riddle and that he is actually a king in his own right, not just some queen-consort. Neither of the newborn seems the prime candidate as the old kind had an older son who is also already a married adult. And if he becomes king that means that the daughter of the old king suddenly is only the sister of the current king who already has is own son. Which means that if that king dies too, his son would probably have a far better claim of the two original children.

That holds true for most systems of inheritance, but not for all.


At topic :

There are a lot of fey types with riddles. A common theme is a riddle for the name of the fey thet will grant power over it.

Less common is a form of disguise where the riddle reveals the true form or the true being of a person. Solving this riddle will then chance the interpersonal relationship between the actors.

Brother Oni
2018-05-25, 06:30 AM
Let's assume that with "King" you mean the older of the two guys in the riddle and that he is actually a king in his own right, not just some queen-consort. Neither of the newborn seems the prime candidate as the old kind had an older son who is also already a married adult. And if he becomes king that means that the daughter of the old king suddenly is only the sister of the current king who already has is own son. Which means that if that king dies too, his son would probably have a far better claim of the two original children.

By 'king', I meant the queen's former husband, not the father and son in the riddle, who are ostensibly commoners or whatever the equivalent is in the Indian caste system of the time. Given that the war has lead to the queen and princess being separated from their entourage, it's a safe bet to say that the war isn't going well and her husband (ie the king) is either dead or in exile.

Quertus
2018-05-25, 06:55 AM
Edit: Hmm, the final riddle the Baital asks is a stumper: in the aftermath of a war, a father and son find and rescue a woman and her daughter. They bring the two women home and in time, the son marries the woman and they have a son, while the father marries the daughter and they have a daughter. What is the relationship between the two newborn children?

I suspect redneck style banjo twanging is not an acceptable answer. :smalltongue:

Ok, so... The daughter of the father is the (half)sister of the son, and, thus, the aunt of his child.

The son of the mother is the (half)brother of the daughter, and thus the uncle of her child.

The son of the son is the grandson of the father, and thus the nephew of his child.

The daughter of the daughter is the granddaughter of the mother, and thus the niece of her child.

So, IMO, they are uncle/nephew, and aunt/niece to one another.

Not counting ways in which they are in-laws. :smalltongue:

Satinavian
2018-05-25, 08:46 AM
By 'king', I meant the queen's former husband, not the father and son in the riddle, who are ostensibly commoners or whatever the equivalent is in the Indian caste system of the time. Given that the war has lead to the queen and princess being separated from their entourage, it's a safe bet to say that the war isn't going well and her husband (ie the king) is either dead or in exile.
In this case the female baby has a claim as she is the granddaughter of the king (if the daughter of the queen is not from another relationship), but the male baby obviously not as he is not blood related to the king at all.

Brother Oni
2018-05-25, 12:12 PM
In this case the female baby has a claim as she is the granddaughter of the king (if the daughter of the queen is not from another relationship), but the male baby obviously not as he is not blood related to the king at all.

Only if absolute primogeniture is the succession law as Cespenar said, otherwise as the queen is the ruling monarch, her eldest son takes precedence.

Of course like many of these situations, succession is usually decided at sword point (shortly followed by the headsman's axe).

Satinavian
2018-05-25, 12:31 PM
Only if absolute primogeniture is the succession law as Cespenar said, otherwise as the queen is the ruling monarch, her eldest son takes precedence.

Of course like many of these situations, succession is usually decided at sword point (shortly followed by the headsman's axe).
Nope.

If the dead king was actually the ruler then the queen was only a spouse who was not bloodrelated to to the dynasty at all.

Which mean with Seniority it goes to family of the king. With any kind of elective monarchy the question is moot. In pretty much all other cases the children of the king get the throne in some manner and if none is left or eligible it goes to the family of the king.

But never to the spouse of the ruler. Spouse of ruler can become ruler in the name of some child (which is very common). Or he/she can take the throne by force, that happened too. Or by being blood related to the ruler in some other way that is hopefully not too incestous. And that means stepchildren of the king are out too.

That is true for nearly all systems of inheritance. And if you don't believe me, you are free to provide examples of inheritance systems where the spouse inherits first. I am not sure you will be able to find even one.

Obscuraphile
2018-05-26, 02:12 AM
So not exactly a "riddle" but there are lots of stories about faeries making deals with mortals where the precise wording of the deal is used to one side's gain and the other's loss. Of course this sort of scenario is one that almost by definition cannot be planned out and takes a great deal of real world skill at word trickery to use in a role-playing game. Plus there's a fair chance it will just devolve into "that's not exactly what (you, I, they, we) said!"