What spells have balance implications on the wrong lists?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ignore thematics for now. What spells and which lists cannot coexist for balance reasons? Either interactions with slot replenishment (warlocks and animate dead) or metamagic (sorcerers), or what?

I'm working on version 2 of a proof of concept overhaul of the lists and spell learning system and want to see what traps people can find.

[Pex]

A Sorcerer with Hex might cause a headache because of Twin. First you need to decide if you can Twin Hex. No because the target can change. Yes because the initial casting is one target. If Twin does work, when one target dies can you move its Hex to the other person you Hexed. If yes, what happens? Here the answer is probably made for you since it's two aspects of the same spell so only the original works as per the stacking rules. Suppose both targets have died, either in the same round or different but when the first died a new target was not assigned yet. Is it one bonus action to move both Hexes or one Hex per bonus action? When you Twin Hex does the ability score that's targeted have to be the same for both targets or can they be different?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Counterspell and telekinesis are both spells that interact with Jack of All Trades, and counterspell in particular is kind of a Magical Secrets tax. Adding it to the bard list is good - bards almost always have it and are good at it - and bad - it's similar to giving bards an extra Magical Secret. Any spell that interacts with JoAT is in this category, but counterspell is the most prominent.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

In general: As one adds Wizard spells to the Cleric class, there becomes less reason to go Wizard, since Clerics get better baseline stuff. (Armor, HP, all spells known...)

In particular: Melee Warlocks would love to have Spiritual Guardians. I think they should have gotten it, but someone might have thought it's too good.

Anyway,

Ken

[LudicSavant]

Notable ones that leap immediately to mind:

Healing Word

Find Familiar

Find Steed

[Spiritchaser]

Stone good ones already mentioned maybe include:

Some of the warlock spells such as armor of Agathys would work “better” with long rest slots, and would allow other casters to do a special warlock thing better than warlocks

Shillelagh on the paladin list would lead to some degenerate build strategies

Glibness on the sorcerer list would give sorcerers two trump cards to play in mage duels, they can be uncounterable with subtle spell, and they could (with glibness) counter anything that comes at them without a roll. Yes this is possible with wish, but...

Faeriefire or healing spirit would add a lot of power to many lists

[MrStabby]

Any good magical secrets targets are a good place to start. Often these are paladins or ranger spells that could be accessed more politically and earlier on a full caster's list.

Swiftquiver on a bladelock for example. Others become good in dips. A single level of cleric is great for some characters as it gives proficiencies, if it also gave access to the shield spell then it would be almost mandatory for MC rangers.

Others are pure power as the reason they might be bad. Sorcerers are obscenely strong in mid levels. Throw in wall of force as a spell and they 're over the top.

[hymer]

Sometimes, different lists will have different spells, where one spell is strictly poorer than other choice, though usually with a pretty situational quirk. Take Barkskin vs Mage Armor, or Fireball vs Flamestrike.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm going to note here that the project will entail sharply narrowing any one characters' spell list and changing things like Magical Secrets while (mostly) erasing the idea of "class" spell lists. The goal is to differentiate casters of the same class strongly by theme while not providing any "clear best" path.

Let's look at non-list spell-casting related mechanics for each class:

Bard: JoAT interacts with ability check-forcing spells, making them more potent than they are for others. Bards can already steal any spell they want, but are limited in how many they can steal.

Clerics: Heavy armor/martial weapons makes gish-esque spells better than on a squishier chassis

Druids: Nothing I can think of except competition with wild shape. Most of the restrictions are thematic here AFAIK. Maybe they have so many concentration spells because they're expected to cast and then wildshape? :shrug:

Paladins: Similar to clerics, but both better (better out-of-the-box martial abilities) and worse (competition with smite, fewer/lower-level slots).

4e Monks: Included here because in the revamp they get an actual spell list. Sort of.

Rangers: Basically the same as paladins minus smite in this regard. Oh, and spells-known, not spells-prepared, which basically makes no difference

Sorcerers: Metamagic. That's the big obvious one that has strong balance implications. Twin, subtle, quicken are the metamagics to look out for(?)

Warlocks: Short-rest spell slots, so things with longer durations can be stacked. Limited by balance of short rests per long rest.

Wizards: At high levels, signature spell comes to mind as a possible issue. But they already have the widest list, so...?


Notable ones that leap immediately to mind:

Healing Word

Find Familiar

Find Steed

Which classes mechanics would make these problematic, and why?

[MrStabby]

Will add more later but druids/wildshape look for great concentration (Or even better other persistent) spells, especially buffs they can cast beforehand. Something like armour of agythis on a druid might be tough.

[jaappleton]

Valor Bard with Crossbow Expert and Tenser's Transformation makes for a bad time.

Or, for an arguably superior effect (I'll explain momentarily), at lv10, have the same Bard take the spell Holy Weapon.

Bard can't take Tenser's until lv14. Holy Weapon can be taken at 10. HW lasts for an hour, as opposed to the ten minutes of TT. HW deals 2d8 Radiant, while TT deals 2d12 Force, and I argue Radiant is the superior damage type for what a typical adventuring party normally faces. With HW you lose out on the 50 temp HP and proficiency on Str and Con saves, but with a ranged weapon, you shouldn't be getting hit too often anyway. And with TT, you can't cast spells once TT is cast. HW still allows you to Counterspell.