Do Slam attacks require a free hand?

[Deaconjunglist]

My Warforged has a natural Slam attack. Can I use it in these scenarios:

1: wielding a two handed weapon
2: sword and board
3: replace hands with claws
4: the reason I ask, my warforged warlock is using the Eldritch Claws feat

Edit: btw I do not intend to take the beast strike feat, but I know how awesome it is

[ericgrau]

Slap or Slam

The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Depends which appendage does your slam. For example arm or elbow or misc limb and you're usually good to go.

[The Viscount]

1 No, your hands/arms are occupied with the weapon. The same goes for TWFing.
2 No, your weapon hand is full, and shields prevent you from using weapons with that arm (unless the shield is a buckler).
3 The slams never specify that they have to be made with the fingers of the hand, so using claws and slam is kosher.

[ericgrau]

Also relevant:


one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm



When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.


I'm going to guess warforged do arm slams like TV robits and because 1 arm slams seem to be a large creature thing:
1. Yes. But but if you attack with the sword then the slam must be a secondary attack at a -5. See #3 for details. And if you're super strict and literal you can't do both at all because the slam is primary (but I don't think this is RAI, and maybe not RAW either).
2. Yes.
3. Usually, but the claws are secondary attacks and so have a -5 to hit and only add half your strength bonus. The multiattack feat (MM) reduces this to -2. Improved multiattack reduces this to -0 (still at half strength bonus).
4. Yes, likewise at -5.

Also near the silver tracery warforged feat there's an example of an arm slam attack in a picture. I've read shoulder slams as another suggestion and I think it's reasonable to be able to do both.

[Rebel7284]

As you may have figured out after getting two exactly contradictory answers, the game rules are not clear on this issue. In general, you can do all your iterative attacks and then all natural attacks. However, there are cases where monsters can't do claw attacks if they are using manufactured weapons with those limbs. There are dozens of cases that lead to confusion, however. This is one of them.

The description of slam attacks mentions arms (at least for large creatures.) Manufactured weapon attacks are usually used with hands. Can you use both your arms and hands at the same time for different attacks? If you use Unarmed Strike, you are explicitly allowed to use any part of your body, so you should be able to kick or something and have arms/hands free.

Some more things that can add confusion. Can you use claws and a Knee blade? Elbow Blade? Slam with those?

[Uncle Pine]

My Warforged has a natural Slam attack. Can I use it in these scenarios:

1: wielding a two handed weapon
2: sword and board
3: replace hands with claws
4: the reason I ask, my warforged warlock is using the Eldritch Claws feat

There is no explicit RAW answer for these, so I'm going to answer with data:
1. According to every published statblock, no. Creatures with one or two slam, when holding a two handed weapon, have the slam(s) removed from their Full Attack entry, or can only use the weapon or the slam in any given full attack. Examples: fire giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#fireGiant), zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm).
2. According to every published statblock, no. Creatures with a slam attack holding something in their hand don't use manufactured weapons in that hand and slam with it as part of their full attack routine. Example: see above.
3. Generally speaking, published monsters don't have several weapons stacked on the same appendage. So you get creature with slams, claws, tentacles, clawed tentacles, but each given appendage only gets a single a single slot in the Full Attack entry. I am not aware of a published creature attacking with several natural weapons from the same appendage, but it existing would definitely add to the debate. In the meantime, I'm going with the assumption this scenario is similar enough to 1. and 2. to say that no, if you replace your hands with claws you can only claw or slam with each arm.
4. Get the Beast Strike feat from Dragon #355 and enjoy the best of two worlds. There are countless threads on calculating Eldritch Claws + Beast Strike damage so you may want to google "site:giantitp.com beast strike eldritch claws".

[Darrin]

I tried to address this issue way back when, but the RAW is a fustercluck. So I came up with a simple house rule to avoid convoluted RAWankery:

"One slam good, two slams bad."

Essentially, if a creature has a single slam attack, then this is probably a shoulder-check or body-slam of some sort that does not involve the arms. If a creature has two slam attacks, then these are probably arm-related, and are not available if your arms are doing something else, such as wielding a weapon.

However... since then, I have some further thoughts with regards to Warforged. There are a couple examples where you can add a slam attack to a creature that works a lot like a Warforged slam: the Mighty Arms graft and the Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist. Renegade Mastermaker doesn't say anything about whether you still get the slam if your battlefist arm is occupied, but the Mighty Arms graft does say this:

"You can make a slam attack while wielding a weapon in the other hand, in which case it is treated as a secondary attack (–5 penalty on attack roll)."

From this, I believe the intention from the designers, at least so far as the Mighty Arms graft is concerned, was that you only get the slam attack when one of your arms is unoccupied. (The Warforged statblock in MM3 also does not include the slam when the Warforged is wielding a two-handed spear, but I consider statblocks to be... shall we say, less persuasive?)

[Thurbane]

I know many treat the official FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) with disdain, but it has a couple of sections that are pretty relevant:


Is a warforged considered to be wearing gauntlets, and therefore always armed?
A warforged always threatens squares within its reach, but not because it’s considered to be wearing gauntlets. A warforged has a natural slam attack, and thus always threatens squares within its reach (just like any other creature with a natural attack). These are slam attacks, however, not gauntlet attacks.


Can a creature make a slam or claw attack when both his hands are used for something else, such as holding a two-handed weapon?
As long as the creature can easily let go with one hand, yes. A two-handed weapon requires two hands to wield in combat, but not to hold. A frost giant could choose to make a slam attack instead of a greataxe attack without having to drop the greataxe.
On the other hand, a frost giant carrying a heavy weight in both arms doesn’t have a free hand to use for a slam attack. He’d have to drop the object (a free action) before making a slam attack.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Slams are often stated to be a result of extreme body density but there is just the semi-vague implication that you are smacking them with arm things. So by the strictest RAW I would say no since slams are not listed to consume the slot they do not (except n the situations where they are, of course). The FAQ and Darrin's suggestions seem like the most reasonable compromise to me.

[animewatcha]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaYtNW_wR8

Video game example can be done via Ryse: son of rome.

Ironically, further insight can be had with how this guy in the youtube link is holding the shield ( it's humongous for a shield, but still can be used ).

If you say yes to one handed and shield bash, then you admit a yes to slam being doable via elbow, whole arm, shoulder, etc.

Two-handed. Slam via closest appendage ( usually shoulder/arm thing ).

Hands, claws. Think martial arts except hands are doing more a slashing motion ( some might do differently ) followed by adjoining elbow as a quickie.

How effective doing the 'slam' is a different manner ( representable by -5 on attack roll and half str modifier when secondary ).

[Pleh]

Not sure if it's just citing the MM, but Rules Compendium describes slam attacks (under Natural Attacks on pg 100) as "batters opponents with an appendage," which lends strength to the "must have the appendage free to use" answer.

Then on page 150 (under creatures with swim speed for the underwater combat rules), the RC mentions that some creatures have a Slam Attack that represents a Full Body Slam (like Darrin was mentioning) which is an important distinction underwater as "Appendage Slam" attacks will take attack penalties for swinging through water while a "Full Body Slam" from a creature with swim speed doesn't take the penalty.

Together, these rules seem to indicate that, unless otherwise specified in the monster entry, slam attacks are appendage attacks.

That said, I see no particular reason you couldn't Kick with your slam attack, since those are appendages that can be swung like arms and should be just as dense as the warforged's arms. I considered if maybe the ability to use kicks was a special ability of unarmed attacks that made them different from slam attacks, but several creatures have kicks and hooves as natural weapons and they don't have to stop standing on their legs to use them (even as part of a full attack).

In fact, page 100 in the rules compendium makes me think even more strongly that you could use kicks based on how its described in the paragraph on Combining Weapons. When using both Manufactured Weapons and Natural Attacks together in a Full Attack, you basically use the Manufactured Weapon as the Primary Weapon with no penalties, so one attack at highest BAB, then follow up with any or all of your natural weapons as secondary natural attacks (even with the natural weapon that is normally your primary natural weapon). Seems *to me* like it should be fair game here to Two Hand a Greatsword and use a Slam as a Kick as a secondary natural weapon (-5 to attack with half strength bonus to damage).

So, my answers based on RC:

1. Yes. Based on Thurbane's reference to the FAQ, I'd say you could either momentarily hold the Manufactured Weapon in one hand (if you're not using it to attack) and use your free hand to slam (or claw) OR you could probably kick without letting go (but it'd be good to verify with your DM to see if they agree with this ruling).
2. Yes, but you won't be able to free your hands without dropping something as a free action or sheathing it as a move, so it's kicking or disarming one hand.
3. Nothing in Eldritch Claws actually suggests you must Replace your hands with claws. I'd say, "why not both?" Two Hand a Greatsword, power up the eldritch claws, and follow up with a Slam Kick when the occasion calls for it.

Interestingly, RC adds (on page 16) that Natural Weapons cannot be used to make Unarmed Attacks, so a creature with a Slam Attack arguably can't make unarmed attacks unless they are using part of their body that specifically isn't part of their slam attack. Since Slam attacks are vaguely defined as appendage attacks, it'd be hard to consider a warforged's punch to be a slam while their kick or body check is only unarmed. If the idea is that they get a slam because they're made of metal, then basically they just don't get unarmed attacks whatsoever, because their entire body already is "armed" and causes lethal damage upon collision. That said, they still only get 1 slam attack per round no matter which part of their body they use, just like how most creatures get 1 unarmed attack despite being able to use any unoccupied part of their body. It's like they're effectively receiving the same benefit of having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat while having to utilize the Natural Weapon rules rather than Iterative attacks.

[KillianHawkeye]

Obviously you should try to convince your DM that it's a body slam. Then see if he'll allow you to purchase special meat sticks that can magically transport you and your enemies into a wrestling wring when you "snap into them". Wear a spangled cowboy hat and colorful, oversized sunglasses and you will be set. OOOH YEAH!! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

I know many treat the official FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) with disdain, but it has a couple of sections that are pretty relevant:

I'd go with the FAQ from the creators over everyone else's speculation. They do make mistakes on their own rules sometimes, but I'd go with FAQ a good 97% of the time. It makes sense too. Even if it is an arm slam that's hard to do with a heavy weapon in hand. But in the case of THF you can let go with one hand long enough to slam with the other arm.

So...
1. Yes
2. No, but there are (non-trivial) ways to free up your arm.
3. Not clear but I think yes.
4. Ditto.