Simulacrum questions not involving "Wish"

[MarkVIIIMarc]

This spell is interesting. Sorta O/P but I have a few questions.

-What is the generally regarded theory on what happens to a Simulacrum created by Wizard Bob when he dies? Just reading the spell it doesn't seem like Bob dispelled his Simulacrum, Bob just died.

-How strictly is the "lacking the ability to learn" line enforced? Can a Sim learn the way to the new tavern in town? Can a Sim learn a stranger's name?

-Is there any way to ID a Sim? Detect Magic? Anything like that?

-Is there any easier way to eliminate a Sim than outright killing it? Dispel Magic?

-What degree of interpreting the situation are Sims usually allowed? If Bob told his Sim to help him take over the town by eliminating the opposition would the Sim continue on killing the opposition even if he found out Bob's life was in danger and Bob's imminent death was the greatest obstacle to Bob taking over the town?

-Is it possible to repair another person's Sim?

-Any rules on effects of other spells on Sims? Dissonant Whispers or anything work different on them due to a trick of wording?

:EDIT:
-Do Sims age at all? It doesn't say they don't, but then again it doesn't say it does. I assume they do since my twin would age?

-The spell description reads "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell". Does that mean to create a Sim of someone I pretty much need both a lock of their hair and for them to sit in the room touching the snow/ice for the 12 hour casting time?

[Blacky the Blackball]

This spell is interesting. Sorta O/P but I have a few questions.

Here's how I interpret it - others may interpret it differently.


-What is the generally regarded theory on what happens to a Simulacrum created by Wizard Bob when he dies? Just reading the spell it doesn't seem like Bob dispelled his Simulacrum, Bob just died.

It hangs around indefinitely until it's damaged beyond repair or dispelled, at which point it turns to snow/slush.


-How strictly is the "lacking the ability to learn" line enforced? Can a Sim learn the way to the new tavern in town? Can a Sim learn a stranger's name?

Given the description, the dividing line would seem to be that it can remember things, but not learn from them - in other words it can remember facts (such as the layout of the town or people's names) but can't assimilate those facts and turn them into learning new skills or abilities. For example if you showed it how to do a card trick, it would gain the abstract knowledge of how the trick worked and be able to describe it to others, but would never be able to actually practice or perform the trick itself.


-Is there any way to ID a Sim? Detect Magic? Anything like that?

A Detect Magic will show it to be an illusion spell.


-Is there any easier way to eliminate a Sim than outright killing it? Dispel Magic?

Dispel Magic will work. Walking into an anti-magic area work too.


-What degree of interpreting the situation are Sims usually allowed? If Bob told his Sim to help him take over the town by eliminating the opposition would the Sim continue on killing the opposition even if he found out Bob's life was in danger and Bob's imminent death was the greatest obstacle to Bob taking over the town?

If it was told to eliminate opposition, it would continue doing that. It doesn't have free will.

Personality-wise, I'd treat it as a particularly intelligent golem or robot. It might be able to fool casual observers into thinking it's the real you, and it has enough sophistication in its "programming" - a duplication of your thought patterns to within the limits of the spell - to appear to have imagination and personality (although it doesn't really), but anyone interacting with it long-term will realise that its inability to learn and its single-mindedness at following whatever instruction you last gave it are give-aways that it's not a real person.


-Is it possible to repair another person's Sim?

I see no reason why not.


-Any rules on effects of other spells on Sims? Dissonant Whispers or anything work different on them due to a trick of wording?

It has a mind (albeit an artificial one created by magic) so there's no reason why mind-effecting spells won't work. It will take psychic damage as normal.

However, I'd expect any spell that affects the soul not to work, because it doesn't have one.


-Do Sims age at all? It doesn't say they don't, but then again it doesn't say it does. I assume they do since my twin would age?

I'd assume not. It's not your twin - it's an illusion made to look/think like you. It will always look/think like you did when you cast the spell.


-The spell description reads "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell". Does that mean to create a Sim of someone I pretty much need both a lock of their hair and for them to sit in the room touching the snow/ice for the 12 hour casting time?

That's right.

Although if they're unwilling you might want them to be unconscious for the duration so they're less likely to spoil the spell.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Here's how I interpret it - others may interpret it differently.



It hangs around indefinitely until it's damaged beyond repair or dispelled, at which point it turns to snow/slush.



Given the description, the dividing line would seem to be that it can remember things, but not learn from them - in other words it can remember facts (such as the layout of the town or people's names) but can't assimilate those facts and turn them into learning new skills or abilities. For example if you showed it how to do a card trick, it would gain the abstract knowledge of how the trick worked and be able to describe it to others, but would never be able to actually practice or perform the trick itself.



A Detect Magic will show it to be an illusion spell.



Dispel Magic will work. Walking into an anti-magic area work too.



If it was told to eliminate opposition, it would continue doing that. It doesn't have free will.

Personality-wise, I'd treat it as a particularly intelligent golem or robot. It might be able to fool casual observers into thinking it's the real you, and it has enough sophistication in its "programming" - a duplication of your thought patterns to within the limits of the spell - to appear to have imagination and personality (although it doesn't really), but anyone interacting with it long-term will realise that its inability to learn and its single-mindedness at following whatever instruction you last gave it are give-aways that it's not a real person.



I see no reason why not.



It has a mind (albeit an artificial one created by magic) so there's no reason why mind-effecting spells won't work. It will take psychic damage as normal.

However, I'd expect any spell that affects the soul not to work, because it doesn't have one.



I'd assume not. It's not your twin - it's an illusion made to look/think like you. It will always look/think like you did when you cast the spell.



That's right.

Although if they're unwilling you might want them to be unconscious for the duration so they're less likely to spoil the spell.

Man, I'd be upset if I spent 1500 gp worth of a gem on a Sim and some schmuck with a level 3 Dispel Magic came by and "killed" my sim. It seems to read correctly though.

How do I calculate the roll?

The Sim spell is a level 7 so the DC is 10 + 7. So if I'm the one rolling to dispell the Sim I roll a D20 and add my spell casting ability modifier to it (plus Jack of all Trades being a Bard)?

Personally I like to think my Sim could learn a card trick but ya know, he might not be able to learn how to operate a plow so maybe not. Thats interesting. Probably a giveaway you are dealing with one.

I'm working up an idea where a politician is kidnapped, a Sim of him is made and then set about doing something naughty or illegal. When the politician wakes up he's blamed for it. These are fun on a couple levels.

[DanyBallon]

I'm working up an idea where a politician is kidnapped, a Sim of him is made and then set about doing something naughty or illegal. When the politician wakes up he's blamed for it. These are fun on a couple levels.

I may be the only one around here, but I believe that replacing someone else, like in the situation above, is the main reason for simulacrum to exist. Just my to cents

On the topic of dispel magic being able to dispel a simulacrum, I agree that it’s frustrating that a 3rd level spell can overcome a 7th level spell, but it won’t happen often, as I don’t see someone casting dispel magic at every turn, just in case someone is a simulacrum. They would first need to have doubts about him, see through the illusion then cast the spell. In such case I can live with it.

[Blacky the Blackball]

I may be the only one around here, but I believe that replacing someone else, like in the situation above, is the main reason for simulacrum to exist. Just my to cents

That's what it used to be for, back in AD&D.

The idea of using the spell to create a copy of yourself is a relatively new one.

In fact in AD&D, the spell worked as follows:

1) The simulacrum when first created has no more intelligence and personality than a zombie, and has no memories.
2) You can use a Reincarnation spell on the simulacrum to bring it to full awareness, but it will have its own personality but still no memories.
3) You can use a Limited Wish spell (a lower level version of Wish that isn't as powerful) to give it the personality, abilities (such as spell casting and other class abilities), and 40%-65% of the memories of the original.
4) Even if you do that, it will only be 20%-50% of the level of the original.
5) However, you don't need the original to be there for the casting, only a bit of them such as a lock of hair or fingernail clipping.

As you can see, the primary use of the spell is to create a duplicate of someone to replace them as an imposter, or to gain information from someone surruptitiously - since the simulacrum is totally loyal to you and has the memories of the original, it will happily co-operate, answering any of your questions and revealing the original's secrets (those it remembers, anyway), or to test to see how the original would react in a particular situation.

All those uses are based around intrigue, though, rather than combat.

Since the simulacrum is likely to be so much less physically/magically powerful than the original, casting it on yourself to double your combat effectiveness just isn't a thing. A fifteenth level caster creating a simulacrum of themselves will get one that's somewhere between third and seventh level - useful to perform minor tasks for you, or to look after your tower while you're out adventuring, but unlikely to be much help if you're facing the sort of monsters and opponents that a fifteenth level party is usually up against.


On the topic of dispel magic being able to dispel a simulacrum, I agree that it’s frustrating that a 3rd level spell can overcome a 7th level spell, but it won’t happen often, as I don’t see someone casting dispel magic at every turn, just in case someone is a simulacrum. They would first need to have doubts about him, see through the illusion then cast the spell. In such case I can live with it.

Another reason for using a simulacrum for intrigue purposes rather than as a combat-buddy - it's far less likely to catch a dispel.

[DanyBallon]

As you can see, the primary use of the spell is to create a duplicate of someone to replace them as an imposter, or to gain information from someone surruptitiously - since the simulacrum is totally loyal to you and has the memories of the original, it will happily co-operate, answering any of your questions and revealing the original's secrets (those it remembers, anyway), or to test to see how the original would react in a particular situation.

You got me thinking, I could definately see a wizard create a simulacrum of himself to manage is wizard tower and act as a village wizard, while the real one is adventuring or reseasrching new spells. The fact that the simulacrum can’t learn anything would be played as if the wizard has some kind of short term memory alzheimer...

[Talionis]

On whether or not a Similacrum can learn, I can let you know how we handle it in our campaigns.

We treat a Similacrum like anyone else, they just cannot learn new levels or recover spells.

The inability to learn is so full of contradictions. We think the Similacrums were intended to be able to be your undercover agent in a stronghold over many days or allow you to go campaigning and have your Similacrum rule the kingdom for you while your away. So the Similacrum must be able to learn enough to do complex everyday tasks, less than the explicit limits. This means the Similacrum are not stupid or forgetful. We think they can be taught new skills like how to cook, but they will never gain enough ability to add a skill like Atheletics, but they could go to a Karate class and learn a little each day, but they would never gain the bonuses that PC's gain.

Spend 5 minutes discussing what it means to literally be unable to learn and you will understand that dogs learn things, so if you take that statement to a logical conclusion the Similacrum cannot do any of the functions it would seem the spell intends. Not to mention the fact that the Similacrum has Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma stats that will usually be much more than 3's. None of those stats work if you cannot learn and retain new information at all.

So the simplest thing is not to let them learn any new skill that conveys a numerical bonus to the Similacrum, but that they otherwise act like a person with their mental stats.

[Zalabim]

Consider that the simulacrum appears the same as the original, but no mention is made of touch, temperature, or sound. Imagine there's an attempt to impersonate the king for some reason. Which does it best? Which is the worst?
The King under the effects of Dominate Person.
A simulacrum of the King made by a typical wizard.
The best possible body double of the king with all the applicable skills, feats, and class features you could want.
A simulacrum of the body double above.
A simulacrum of the king made by the body double above, since Wishes are potentially available to anyone.


Basically, how do you determine if someone can tell that a simulacrum isn't the original? Is it obvious? Is it based on the caster's abilities? Is it based on the simulacrum's abilities?