3.x - RAW - The Mighty Divining Full Caster?

[unseenmage]

Okay so could someone please thoroughly explain the full caster divination immunity that's been bandied about recently?

The mightiest divination I've utilized in game was that one druid spell that reveals natural terrain for miles, Find the Path, and that cleric one that is basically twenty questions with a semi random outsider.
And all as an Artificer.

Not sure I've ever seen a non-specializing divining full caster reach the almost godly foresight I've been reading people claim they could have.

How early do these protective divination come online for the paranoid caster?
How invested does the daily allotment of spells have to be?

Assume unconverted 3.0 stuff is 3.5 compatible.
Dragon & Dungeon mags allowed just cite the source.
By full caster I mean Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Psion & Wizard tier.
Minionmancy & itemmancy are fine just note Cha or WBL or similar restrictions as required.

Bonus points if there's a way to make Constructs do it for me just because.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Becoming immune to most divination spells is a simple matter of casting Mind Blank.

If you want truly hardcore divination abuse, you Shapechange/Wild Shape into an Elemental Weird (MM II) and spam their Prescience ability as a free action.

EDIT: Prescience lets you use: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing, vision.

[unseenmage]

Becoming immune to most divination spells is a simple matter of casting Mind Blank.

If you want truly hardcore divination abuse, you Shapechange/Wild Shape into an Elemental Weird (MM II) and spam their Prescience ability as a free action.

EDIT: Prescience lets you use: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing, vision.
Shapechange seems awfully late in the game to get a full caster through those pre-ninths levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Shapechange seems awfully late in the game to get a full caster through those pre-ninths levels.

That's the nuclear option, you can get by by casting Contact Other Planes routinely until them.

EDIT: Along with spells like Scry.

EDIT 2: With Assume Supernatural Ability, you could become an Elemental Weird at level 15.

[unseenmage]

That's the nuclear option, you can get by by casting Contact Other Planes routinely until them.

EDIT: Along with spells like Scry.

EDIT 2: With Assume Supernatural Ability, you could become an Elemental Weird at level 15.

Any dinmvinatory advice for lower levels then? Am interested if divination can keep full casters alive down when they're still vulnerable.

[Silva Stormrage]

Any dinmvinatory advice for lower levels then? Am interested if divination can keep full casters alive down when they're still vulnerable.

Divinations at low levels are fairly... poor. When splatbook diving for my own homebrew pure divination class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?213491-The-Haruspex-(3-5-Divination-based-Base-Class)-PEACH) it was brutal trying to think of something that would work at low levels.

I have found that the best low level information gathering tool is detect thoughts + leading questions. Scholar's touch is also pretty useful and you can get some pretty good uses out of some low level divinations.

Now, when a lot of people on giantitp start talking about spamming divinations to learn what encounters are coming up or to just flat out figure out the plot they are generally refering to divinations at spell levels 4th-6th. Divination, Scry, Identify Transgressor, Contact Other Plane, Find the Path, etc. These spells are the open ended "DM give me specific answers" that can break campaigns if the DM is not prepared for them.

The lowest level version of that kind of spell that I know is path of the exalted as a 3rd level sanctified spell. You can't cast any divinations for 24 hours before hand though. Still it's fairly powerful as far as effects go and you can follow it up with divinations after you cast it if need be.


Edit: As for spell slot allotment, if you are spamming divinations you are hiding in your fortress/mage's magnificent mansion and casting them for 2-3 days. After you know what you need to fight against you prepare the appropriate spells and go in spells blazing. So they usually don't take up spell slots. Either that or a wizard uses spontaneous divination to expend all of his unused spell slots at the end of the day on divinations.

[unseenmage]

Divinations at low levels are fairly... poor. When splatbook diving for my own homebrew pure divination class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?213491-The-Haruspex-(3-5-Divination-based-Base-Class)-PEACH) it was brutal trying to think of something that would work at low levels.

I have found that the best low level information gathering tool is detect thoughts + leading questions. Scholar's touch is also pretty useful and you can get some pretty good uses out of some low level divinations.

Now, when a lot of people on giantitp start talking about spamming divinations to learn what encounters are coming up or to just flat out figure out the plot they are generally refering to divinations at spell levels 4th-6th. Divination, Scry, Identify Transgressor, Contact Other Plane, Find the Path, etc. These spells are the open ended "DM give me specific answers" that can break campaigns if the DM is not prepared for them.

The lowest level version of that kind of spell that I know is path of the exalted as a 3rd level sanctified spell. You can't cast any divinations for 24 hours before hand though. Still it's fairly powerful as far as effects go and you can follow it up with divinations after you cast it if need be.


Edit: As for spell slot allotment, if you are spamming divinations you are hiding in your fortress/mage's magnificent mansion and casting them for 2-3 days. After you know what you need to fight against you prepare the appropriate spells and go in spells blazing. So they usually don't take up spell slots. Either that or a wizard uses spontaneous divination to expend all of his unused spell slots at the end of the day on divinations.

That's actually very helpful, thank you!

Any advice for running the obligatory divinatory scry-and-die full caster?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Any dinmvinatory advice for lower levels then? Am interested if divination can keep full casters alive down when they're still vulnerable.

What levels are we talking about?

Detect Magic is all kinds of useful, as is Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.


Any advice for running the obligatory divinatory scry-and-die full caster?

Take Scry & Scry Location. Take Teleport. That's about it.

[Elkad]

Becoming immune to most divination spells is a simple matter of casting Mind Blank.

Online very late, and doesn't keep me from finding your horse, or the Barbarian. Best to augment with some lower level stuff like Detect Scrying and Nondetection. Neither are foolproof, but they are helpful.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Online very late,

That it does, but it's still absolute protection.


and doesn't keep me from finding your horse,

Horse? :smallconfused:


or the Barbarian.

By the time you can cast Mind Blank, the Barbarian should have it too.


Best to augment with some lower level stuff like Detect Scrying and Nondetection. Neither are foolproof, but they are helpful.

Indeed, those two spells are useful. I'd toss in Anticipate Teleportation as well.

[Elkad]

That it does, but it's still absolute protection.
Horse? :smallconfused:
By the time you can cast Mind Blank, the Barbarian should have it too.
Indeed, those two spells are useful. I'd toss in Anticipate Teleportation as well.


Horse, familiar who wandered out of spell-sharing range, juju-zombie mercury dragon, your airship, your sentient sword, whatever

Barbarian has to cough up 81k to buy you a Pearl, or even more if he wants it on an item. Or you have to blow enough spellslots to cover everyone in the party. 4+ 8th level slots is a serious power investment every day. And if your party is big enough to have 2 wizards, it's probably still 4+ slots each.

Yeah. I'm paranoid and happily blow at least a third of my slots on all-day defenses starting about L7. Some of which aren't relevant to this thread, but of course you need Greater Mage Armor and Mage Armor both. Or Phantom Steed + Overland Flight. What if one of them gets dispelled?

Oh, theres another custom spell at my table. 24hour Divination that just checks for the detect-ability of a certain creature every round. If your scrying defenses drop, the caster is alerted.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Horse, familiar who wandered out of spell-sharing range, juju-zombie mercury dragon, your airship, your sentient sword, whatever

You can share spells with your familiar. I'm not sure it matters that much if your minions get Scryed on.


Barbarian has to cough up 81k to buy you a Pearl, or even more if he wants it on an item.

It's worth it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Barbarian has to cough up 81k to buy you a Pearl, or even more if he wants it on an item. Or you have to blow enough spellslots to cover everyone in the party. 4+ 8th level slots is a serious power investment every day. And if your party is big enough to have 2 wizards, it's probably still 4+ slots each.



http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Cough up the XP and get a third eye conceal for at or near cost at ~60k. Do the psion making it a service if you have to.

[ColorBlindNinja]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Cough up the XP and get a third eye conceal for at or near cost at ~60k. Do the psion making it a service if you have to.

If you don't mind spending extra cash, get a Cowl of Warding. It gives you Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and some spell turning as well, IIRC.

[Elkad]

Not saying it's not worth the cost.
But it has to be available. And while we - the 12+ Int forum warriors - see the value immediately, and even his player sees it, convincing the 6int/7wis Barbarian of the same may be a problem. That's money that could upgrade his Sword of Awesomeness! /endflashyfont from +6 to +7, instead of for an item that "doesn't do ANYTHING!"

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not saying it's not worth the cost.
But it has to be available. And while we - the 12+ Int forum warriors - see the value immediately, and even his player sees it, convincing the 6int/7wis Barbarian of the same may be a problem. That's money that could upgrade his Sword of Awesomeness! /endflashyfont from +6 to +7, instead of for an item that "doesn't do ANYTHING!"

I think even a low INT/WIS Barbarian doesn't want to be mind controlled/spied on.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not saying it's not worth the cost.
But it has to be available. And while we - the 12+ Int forum warriors - see the value immediately, and even his player sees it, convincing the 6int/7wis Barbarian of the same may be a problem. That's money that could upgrade his Sword of Awesomeness! /endflashyfont from +6 to +7, instead of for an item that "doesn't do ANYTHING!"

So whack him with dominate, make him do a funny dance, then release it and tell him "this will make it so nobody else ever does that to you." Assuming he's never been subject to any of what MB blocks to his detriment before, anyway; a bold assumption by the time even 60k is affordable.

[Silva Stormrage]

That's actually very helpful, thank you!

Any advice for running the obligatory divinatory scry-and-die full caster?


Frankly I haven't seen Scry and Die work against BBEG very often. Mainly because realistically every single important villain prepares against Scry and Die. It is too obvious a tactic. In my campaigns the PC's have given up trying use Scry and die on the main villain if they are a spellcaster as it simply get stopped by the variety of methods, Detect Scrying, Mage's Private Sanctum and Anticipate Teleport are the major ones. All which are very easy to keep up most of the time and can quickly turn an ambush on the BBEG into an ambush by the BBEG. Or they can just call their guards and flee before the PC's get there.

That isn't to say they don't do a variant of Scry and Die. It's just instead of scrying the individual they find their location via non scrying methods (Multiple copies of circle dance) get a rough estimate, teleport ~400 meters away and try to ambush from there. Either via invisibility, normal stealth, burrowing and the like.


Scry and die works best when 1) You are using divination/location discerning methods that the enemy either can't trace or can't detect you doing them. Urban Tracking Feat, Circle Dance, Necrotic Scry or similar methods. 2) They aren't expecting an ambush. This is a problem for BBEG's because unless they are fairly low level (In which case you can't scry and die) or are insanely arrogant they are expecting ambushes constantly. The most relevant time this comes up is if the situation changes rapidly and you can spot a window of opportunity where they either can't prepare for an ambush (The evil chancellor has to leave his fortified manor for a political negotiation) or can't appropriately negate it, (You just fought the evil necromancer and he teleported back to base but you know you dispelled all of his buffs and anticipate teleport/non detection effects).

[Anthrowhale]

Barbarian has to cough up 81k to buy you a Pearl, or even more if he wants it on an item.

A level 8 Pearl of Power is "only" 64k.

[Elkad]

A level 8 Pearl of Power is "only" 64k.

8² isn't 81 any more? Darn that new math.

[unseenmage]

Frankly I haven't seen Scry and Die work against BBEG very often. Mainly because realistically every single important villain prepares against Scry and Die. It is too obvious a tactic. In my campaigns the PC's have given up trying use Scry and die on the main villain if they are a spellcaster as it simply get stopped by the variety of methods, Detect Scrying, Mage's Private Sanctum and Anticipate Teleport are the major ones. All which are very easy to keep up most of the time and can quickly turn an ambush on the BBEG into an ambush by the BBEG. Or they can just call their guards and flee before the PC's get there.

That isn't to say they don't do a variant of Scry and Die. It's just instead of scrying the individual they find their location via non scrying methods (Multiple copies of circle dance) get a rough estimate, teleport ~400 meters away and try to ambush from there. Either via invisibility, normal stealth, burrowing and the like.


Scry and die works best when 1) You are using divination/location discerning methods that the enemy either can't trace or can't detect you doing them. Urban Tracking Feat, Circle Dance, Necrotic Scry or similar methods. 2) They aren't expecting an ambush. This is a problem for BBEG's because unless they are fairly low level (In which case you can't scry and die) or are insanely arrogant they are expecting ambushes constantly. The most relevant time this comes up is if the situation changes rapidly and you can spot a window of opportunity where they either can't prepare for an ambush (The evil chancellor has to leave his fortified manor for a political negotiation) or can't appropriately negate it, (You just fought the evil necromancer and he teleported back to base but you know you dispelled all of his buffs and anticipate teleport/non detection effects).
Again, all very informative. THANK YOU!

I know divinations are my weakest magic but I've never heard of Urban Tracking Feat, Circle Dance, or Necrotic Scry. Sources please?

[Jack_Simth]

Any dinmvinatory advice for lower levels then? Am interested if divination can keep full casters alive down when they're still vulnerable.

Welp, there's Arcane Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm) to replace a scout, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clairaudienceClairvoyance.htm) to check a known spot remotely, Detect Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) + Leading questions (as noted), and Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) to find the good treasure (it can somewhat see through barriers), and Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm) or Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm) to ask about the future.

But yes, until you hit 5th level spells for Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm), Commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm), and the like, they're... pretty lackluster.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't think many tables actually do the fullest extent of COP-spam (or the like) to figure out what's happening each day, if only because it's so cumbersome.

Still, aforementioned gems like Circle Dance and Identify Transgressor are relatively quick and straightforward and make sure silly things like mystery and betrayal are no longer a part of the narrative.

[Nifft]

I don't think many tables actually do the fullest extent of COP-spam (or the like) to figure out what's happening each day, if only because it's so cumbersome.

COP-spam for information about the future may also be useless outside of theory-crafting because many DMs don't give perfect knowledge of the future to anyone, including the random outsiders you might contact.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget outsourced Communes from Improved Familiars, Planar Bindings & Allies and the like. And Spontaneous Divination.

[Silva Stormrage]

Again, all very informative. THANK YOU!

I know divinations are my weakest magic but I've never heard of Urban Tracking Feat, Circle Dance, or Necrotic Scry. Sources please?

Urban Tracking is a feat from City Scape. It's not really divination but it's basically "Make an easy gather information check to track down a target's current location if you have a lead on them". DM's will probably prevent this from working on teleporters but still it's pretty useful I have found. Especially if you can get a psicrystal or familiar to pick up the feat.

Circle Dance is in spell compendium which points you in the direction of the target's current location. No save or real way to block it other than mind blank. If you cast it once then move to another far off spot and use it again you can pinpoint their location via a map fairly accurately. 3rd level too so fairly low level option.

Necrotic Scry is a fairly more situation one. Necrotic cyst spells from Libris Mortis all require you to implant a "Necrotic Cyst" which is basically a living necrotic tumor onto a target. Necrotic Scry lets you pinpoint any target with a necrotic cyst in them no save and it's not actually a divination spell or a [scrying] spell so it's not blocked via mindblank or anything else that blocks divinations. It does require you to infect the target first (A 2nd level spell with a touch range and a fort negate is required to infect people) which can make the spell situational.

[ryu]

At the highest of high OP and level you get making ice assassins of prospective enemies and mind-raping said assassin to learn all the enemy knows. No divination to be immune to, and get everything. The defense to this is to defensively mindrape yourself into not having any relevant information about your capabilities with contingent miracle to regain your lost memory at important points. Also Vecna Blooded cycling every day to render yourself immune to divinations and erase knowledge of you from history.

Basically at relatively high optimization the information war is Serious Business. Also that highest of high OP thing was overselling a bit. At actually the highest of OP people can't kill or hinder each other even if you disallow pun-pun.

[ColorBlindNinja]

At the highest of high OP and level you get making ice assassins of prospective enemies and mind-raping said assassin to learn all the enemy knows. No divination to be immune to, and get everything. The defense to this is to defensively mindrape yourself into not having any relevant information about your capabilities with contingent miracle to regain your lost memory at important points.

That sounds like an awesome concept for a campaign. The PCs wake up in some underground tunnel, and they have no idea who they are or how they got there.

[Florian]

The main thing to keep in mind is taking a critical look at the kind of game you're in. More static and reactive games, like site-based ones, will favor different tactics than plot-based ones or active and very improv-heavy ones. A lot of things will depend on how the gm does their job, whether it´s pretty prep-heavy or creating most things on the fly and finally how good you know or at least can gauge that gm.

[ryu]

That sounds like an awesome concept for a campaign. The PCs wake up in some underground tunnel, and they have no idea who they are or how they got there.

It's almost like this system has a fascinating magical chess game in it that gets more interesting the less you ban and the more creative your group is or something. This is why I play 4D chess with tier ones. The basic intended game is just too simple to interest me.

[ericgrau]

I've made a mock up of how I see full caster divining most often described, which should help:

Divination
Divination
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You know everything that will happen to you or any creature, place or thing relevant to you for the duration. You know all the abilities of every creature involved. You also know the specific details of all events, both public and secret knowledge. No rolls are involved and there are no drawbacks, you just know.

No magic item or class feature can prevent this, only the cantrip "I'm a Full Caster, the Only Way to Deal with Another Full Caster".

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've made a mock up of how I see full caster divining most often described, which should help:

Divination
Divination
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You know everything that will happen to you or any creature, place or thing relevant to you for the duration. You know all the abilities of every creature involved. You also know the specific details of all events, both public and secret knowledge. No rolls are involved and there are no drawbacks, you just know.

No magic item or class feature can prevent this, only the cantrip "I'm a Full Caster, the Only Way to Deal with Another Full Caster".


That's basically what Shapechanging into an Elemental Weird lets you do.

[Efrate]

Is there a way to planar bubble a weirds pool and bind them in say a portable hole so you can have them as a divination pet? They only have 15 hit dice.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is there a way to planar bubble a weirds pool and bind them in say a portable hole so you can have them as a divination pet? They only have 15 hit dice.

I'm not certain. You could probably make a Simulacrum/Ice Assassin of one and keep it in your demiplane.

[Nifft]

Is there a way to planar bubble a weirds pool and bind them in say a portable hole so you can have them as a divination pet? They only have 15 hit dice.

Just drop one half of a pair of Ring Gates at the Elemental Weird's pool.

Stick your head through the Ring Gate when you want to ask questions.

[Efrate]

I love the visual of sticking your head through a ring and asking questions. Especially if your character gives the weird a funky name. "Oh great and powerful toothless jim, do there be dragons in my future? If so ancient knowable one, what kind? Ok guys the mighty and all knowing toothless jim has informed me that red dragons are ahead. Bow to his infinite wisdom and get some fire protection. It's all true, trust me. Toothless him has never led me astray."

[Nifft]

I love the visual of sticking your head through a ring and asking questions. Especially if your character gives the weird a funky name. "Oh great and powerful toothless jim, do there be dragons in my future? If so ancient knowable one, what kind? Ok guys the mighty and all knowing toothless jim has informed me that red dragons are ahead. Bow to his infinite wisdom and get some fire protection. It's all true, trust me. Toothless him has never led me astray."

If you give a Weird a boy's name, I presume that the Weird would start playing Whack-a-Mole with your head.

Heh, maybe you're not the first or last person to try the ring gate thing, and she really does get to play Whack-a-Mole.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Small catch with weirds; unless you can compel them not to, they answer all questions in riddle, metaphor, and prophecy. Getting one to answer a question straight is like trying to pull elephant teeth with your bare hands; it's not going to work and you're going to get hurt for your trouble.

[ryu]

Small catch with weirds; unless you can compel them not to, they answer all questions in riddle, metaphor, and prophecy. Getting one to answer a question straight is like trying to pull elephant teeth with your bare hands; it's not going to work and you're going to get hurt for your trouble.

Not for the ice assassin plan that was suggested above. They literally can't disobey. Not for the even earlier shapechange because there's no communication just knowing.