Middle Finger of Vecna: Witch. What’s the Consensus?

[KOLE]

http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/09/witch.html?m=1

Link for those unfamiliar.

Recently, there was a fairly sizable topic discussing MFOV and the communities opinion of their work. I’d only ever glanced at the Muscle Wizard and Bardbarian Primal Paths before, which are hilarious and IMO one tweak away from being very valid archetypes. Me and a friend hope to play them in a campaign as expies of Johnny Bravo and Gaston, competing for the attention of “Babes”.

The topic encouraged me to dig in to their work more, and I was very, very, impressed! I even became a contributor to their patreon.

I’m not a fan of homebrew classes for the most part because I feel all the major roles are occupied by PHB classes and I already want to play so many classes that I don’t really have time to consider something new, but I was already planning on running a full caster next campaign, and the Witch really grabbed my attention. I won’t reveal anything out of respect to MFOV, but the complete version has twelve additional archetype options, and all of them are awesome and make me even more excited.

My question is, I’ve done some digging around the forum and not found many topics on this class in particular. My DM is wary of homebrew and I’m not the best at predicting balance, and I think we both would feel a lot more confident if someone else chimed in who was a little more objective. Do you think the Witch is a balanced class? Would you accept it at your table? If another player used it and you were a core full caster, would you feel gypped? If you do think it’s unbalanced, what would you reccomend to reign it in?

[Consensus]

I'm the Consensus :smallsmile:

[KOLE]

I'm the Consensus :smallsmile:
Boooooooo! Hahahaha. I didn’t expect this.

[Xihirli]

My question is, I’ve done some digging around the forum and not found many topics on this class in particular. My DM is wary of homebrew and I’m not the best at predicting balance, and I think we both would feel a lot more confident if someone else chimed in who was a little more objective. Do you think the Witch is a balanced class? Would you accept it at your table? If another player used it and you were a core full caster, would you feel gypped? If you do think it’s unbalanced, what would you reccomend to reign it in?

Hey I'm not super great at predicting balance either so I just wanted to chime in to ask you to please not use racial slurs.

[Laserlight]

The MFOV stuff I have seen seemed pretty balanced. If one of my players wanted to try one of their classes and I had to decide sight unseen as to whether to allow it, I'd lean toward Yes.

[MrStabby]

Some of their stuff is good. This is not. This was literally the class that put me off allowing 3rd party stuff at the table. If you have read the other threads I don't have to repeat why.

My advice would be to 'brew your own. You get what you want, what fits your world and probably better balance.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I found nothing wrong with the class. But i haven't looked at it in a long time.

Of their classes its of the few i really liked, being right behind Binder but ahead of Warmage. Unless any major changes have occurred or any huge power shifts with different archetypes then i'd say it be fine to put in any normal campaign.


I highly suggest running the entire class (in detail) with the DM though. It gets alot of stuff that can do almost all at the same time.

[mephnick]

It's too strong. I outlined it in another thread a while ago but I don't have the time to go through it again and I'm a bit hazy, but I believe the hexes not requiring concentration and the action/resource economy of the class were my major concerns.

[halarin]

I'm not an expert on balance by any means, but this is way overpowered. It's like they combined sorcerer and warlock to make one overpowered class.

[SirGraystone]

So you have the same spell progression then sorcerer, with more spell knows, add hex to that, and a familiar, but the easiest way that it's not balance, you get a new feature at every levels, except level 17.

[strangebloke]

So you have the same spell progression then sorcerer, with more spell knows, add hex to that, and a familiar, but the easiest way that it's not balance, you get a new feature at every levels, except level 17.

Yesh, it's just too much everything. Improved familiar, ritual casting, maximized damage against hex targets, concentration-free debuffs, Diviner Wizard's portent ability, freely heightened debuffs... Grood Grief.

And it's horribly put-together.

Some relevant quotes:

You can take the hex:
"Beckon Familiar
You can cast the find familiar spell as an action without expending a spell slot or spell components"

But at level 2 you already got:
"Familiar
At 2nd level, you learn the find familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual without material components. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known."

Also in the familiar block:
" Additionally, once per turn as an action or a bonus action, you can allow your familiar to use its reaction to make one attack or cast a spell."
What spells can they cast? Your spells? Any of your spells? Can you literally cast any spell as a bonus action and have your familiar maintain concentration?

----

Cool as heck though. And other MFoV stuff is good.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I know I'm not exactly neutral in this, but I didn't have anything to do with writing the actual base of the witch class, so I'm not as invested in it as I might be. Hopefully that gives me the right to comment...


It's like they combined sorcerer and warlock

...Because I need to point out that that's way off the mark. Warlocks are about dealing damage, which the witch sucks at. Sorcerers are about metamagic, which the witch doesn't have. The witch is a support class focussed on debuffs - the only PHB class that is really comparable is the bard (which tends more towards buffing its allies).


And to those of you saying it gets too many features: I don't disagree, but I would contend that a lot of the features are comparatively lower in power. I don't think the raw number of features can be taken as evidence of it being unbalanced.


To the OP, regarding all the major roles being covered in the PHB already: I also agree with that. Personally, I feel a lot of our base classes fall foul of this - the only ones that don't are the witch (a debuffer) and possibly the gunslinger (a crit-fishing class).


Diviner Wizard's portent ability

Wait, what? I don't remember that being in there?


"Beckon Familiar
You can cast the find familiar spell as an action without expending a spell slot or spell components"

"Familiar
At 2nd level, you learn the find familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual without material components. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known."

Eh, I think that's ok. Spell components =/= material components, and casting as an action without expending a spell slot is way better than casting as a ritual.


What spells can they cast? Your spells?

No, I'm pretty sure that clause is in there in case someone has a familiar with its own spellcasting trait. We've written a few creatures suitable for use as familiars that know a couple of spells.

[Submortimer]

Eh, I think that's ok. Spell components =/= material components, and casting as an action without expending a spell slot is way better than casting as a ritual.

Yeah, I didn't really work on it either, but I know the big benefit of this particular Hex is the fact that casting it as a ritual takes 1 hour and 10 minutes or so, and the Hex lets you do so as an action.

[Arcangel4774]

Hey I'm not super great at predicting balance either so I just wanted to chime in to ask you to please not use racial slurs.

The term gypped is, for most people, so removed from a derogitory term people historically used in reference to the Romani people, that he likely didnt realize it was a slur.

I've always enjoyed etymology, and like you, tend to side with historic over modern uses. Gay used to be closer to an unfounded glee, and retarded used to just mean slowed, resisted, or impaired. Yankee used to be an insult, and not just to apposing baseball fans. In a few generations gyp will no longer be a slur to anyone but those who choose to be offended or those more historically enclined.

[KOLE]

You know what they say, if you want something done right...

I mostly jest. I was hoping there would be more consensus here, the only other topic I could find on the Witch was just like this, seemingly split right down the middle, with a few pot shots at MFOV here and there which (hur hur, pun)is disappointing. So, here's my analysis of the Witch class to see if we can put this to bed:

-d8 Hit Die (On Par with all other full casters except Wizard and Sorc, okay)
-Light Armor prof (Most other Full Casters get more)
- Underwhelming weapon prof (though Whip is pretty cool)
- Two decent tool profs
- Two skills from a pretty narrow list

Based on a cursory glance at all the other full casters, (including Warlock on the list even though they're special), this seems pretty par for the course. My only issue at the moment is maybe losing armor prof or knocking it down to a d6, but if we compare Witch to Bard, which is fairly comparable, we're still pretty comparable, maybe even a point for Bard since they end up knowing way more spells than we do.

So we can conclude that the Witch chassis is comparable to other full casters start.

Now comes the big point of discussion: Level 1 features.

Level 1 Bard:
-Good starting equipment, average AC
-Bardic inspiration (ally buffer, uses tied to CHA score, long rest recharge)

Level 1 Cleric:
-All clerics have great starting equipment and above average AC (for a full caster)
-Some domains give great starting AC, especially with shield Prof
-A lot of great spells to choose from, depending on the cleric, a very potent starting ability.

Level 1 Druid:
-Average AC
-Great starting weapons
-I never realized how lame level 1 Druid is actually. I guess the power spike at level 2 makes up for it.

Level 1 Sorc:
-Poor AC
-Bad melee potential
-Most cantrips known
-Tied for most fragile level 1 character

Level 1 Warlock:
-Average AC
-Average starting melee ability
-ELDRITCH BLAST
-Full Short Rest Slot Recovery
-Great 1st level choices and 2/3 PHB patrons offer really solid 1st level abilities

Level 1 Wizard:
-Poor AC
-3 Cantrips
-Tied for most fragile level 1 character
-Limited Short Rest Spell Recovery

And Witch:
-2 Cantrips
-2 Hexes
-Average AC
-Poor melee weaponry
-Witches Curse

Hexes are pretty far from game breaking. They're actually pretty comparable to Bardic Inspiration. Maybe some of the Curses could be toned down, but none of them are something that you couldn't get by other means at level one, like resistance to fire (play a Tiefling) immune to being charmed (equivalent to elves immunity to sleep) etc. It's also worth noting that these don't scale at all, so while they might be decent at level 1, they don't gain potency as you level, and you can't grab additional curses. Great ribbon/flavor with a mild amount of mechanical use. Also, pretty much every hex requires your action, so unlike Bardic Inspiration, you can't use while also casting a spell or making a melee attack. This is important. I feel like a lot of people overestimate the Witch's abilities. They might have a lot of them, but they're ALL competing for action economy. That's not to be understated for instantly balancing what this can do.

Level 2 we get a better Familiar. None of the buffs are insane, and the Witch has the same problem as the Beastmaster where it has to utilize an action or bonus action to utilize it. Again, a useful feature, but still competing with all your other ones.

Witch's crafts are pretty rad. They all seem pretty balanced, in fact some of them are underwhelming, by my reckoning. Some of them have pretty powerful features from other spellcaster classes (such as an expy of the Portent ability), but they all come online MUCH later than they normally would if you just picked the class it draws inspiration from.

Insidious spell initially made me nervous, because of how potent a Warlock/Witch multiclass could be. Maximizing EB damage every turn would be devastating, but notice it specifies WITCH cantrips, so they definitely covered their behinds on that one. Most Witch damage cantrips are very underwhelming, and using this feature takes away from our primary debuffer role. To be honest, I think we could lose this feature entirely, but it's by no means broken.

Improved Familiar at level 7 is one of those abilities I really think needs to be fixed or axed entirely. It's the only thing I see as potentially broken. Using your familiar, you can cast one of your spells with range self and have it concentrate on it for you. So, at level 7, you can concentrate on one hex, one spell of your choice, and have your familiar concentrate on a second spell. Yes, it's limited to range self, but NO other class gets to concentrate on two spells, ever. We were already skirting the line by allowing hex concentration and spell concentration, this is just over the top, even with the limits.

I understand Familiars are an important part to Witch flavor and very useful mechanically, but the scaling buffs we get to familiars at level 2 are already great, and familiars in general are a very exploitable mechanic. I don't think we need to break it any more than we have to. This is my one big issue with the class so far.

I LOVE the cauldron feature at level 9. Witches brewing potions is very important to me flavor wise, and it's executed well, in fact it might be a little underwhelming. Your trading your versatile spell slots for potions you may or may not need that will become a waste after 24 hours. Balanced, flavorful, useful ribbon. I dig.

Grand Hexes are rad, but I think three is one too many. And I think Forceful Personality either needs a level cap or to be axed entirely. A cap breaker for your most important stat at level 11?! That's crazy strong, and really overshadows all the other options. I'd say it needs to go. The only other capbreaker in the game outside magic items is the Barb at level 20. Just because it's only one ability +3 instead of two +4 does not balance it.

Again, I think we need to reign in the bloat of features, so in addition to nerfing the familiar (while keeping it as a core ability) lets think about cutting down to 1 or 2 grand hexes that can maybe be swapped out at level up. Most of them are very potent.

The capstone is a little underwhelming, but one of those boring but practical kind of things. It is useful, but by no means game breaking. I like it.

So, there we go. I think as written, the class jives pretty well with balancing against other full casters, though I personally will tweak a couple of minor things for my table. What do you guys think of my changes?

TL;DR
-Either remove armor prof OR knock the Witch down to a d6 hit die
-Axe the Improved Familiar feature, probably completely. Familiars are already pretty darn strong.
-Get rid of the Forceful Personality Grand Hex OR make it level 20 only.
-Probably reduce number of Grand Hexes to 2.

[strangebloke]

And to those of you saying it gets too many features: I don't disagree, but I would contend that a lot of the features are comparatively lower in power. I don't think the raw number of features can be taken as evidence of it being unbalanced.

Fair, but I don't think the features are very weak.

The hexes by themselves are very strong, even with the caveat that you have to use you bonus action to maintain them. For example, compare Crown of Madness to Discord.

Discord:
-no spell concentration (still free to drop stinking cloud or whatever
-requires a bonus action to maintain
-allows no save after the first round (unless I'm misreading this)
-is at will and can be gained at level 1.

Crown of Madness:
-Uses up spell concentration
-requires an action to maintain
-allows a save every round
-is a second-level spell, can't get until level three.

If you think Crown of Madness is an Ok spell sometimes, then what is discord? The Witch's Hex ability is basically a second concentration slot that always costs a bonus action to maintain, and the hexes themselves are on par with 1-3 level spells.



Wait, what? I don't remember that being in there?

It's a Grand Hex:

"When you take a long rest, you can peer into the threads of fate and foresee paths the future might take. Roll 2d20s and record the numbers rolled. You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls. You must choose to do so before the roll, and you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn.
Each foretelling roll can be used only once. When you finish a long rest, you lose any unused foretelling rolls."

Can't get it until level eleven, but my point is that this class reads like a 'best of' class, taking huge numbers of the best/most defining features that other classes get. The White Magic witch steals all of the cleric's best spells except for spirit guardians. The improved familiar was a warlock thing, and the witch does it better, and[I] still gets ritual casting, [I]and gets to know a ton of spells. I like the theming and how a lot of the abilities work, but I think the class be a little too strong, and thematically it seems like it would be an easy fit into the warlock subclass.


Eh, I think that's ok. Spell components =/= material components, and casting as an action without expending a spell slot is way better than casting as a ritual.

No, I'm pretty sure that clause is in there in case someone has a familiar with its own spellcasting trait. We've written a few creatures suitable for use as familiars that know a couple of spells.


Yeah, I didn't really work on it either, but I know the big benefit of this particular Hex is the fact that casting it as a ritual takes 1 hour and 10 minutes or so, and the Hex lets you do so as an action.

Ah, fair.

I would add, though, that my point was merely that it was rather ambiguously worded, since a familiar can cast a spell for you. (although this uses your action)

[Doug Lampert]

And to those of you saying it gets too many features: I don't disagree, but I would contend that a lot of the features are comparatively lower in power. I don't think the raw number of features can be taken as evidence of it being unbalanced.

I'll point out that the 3rd edition monk got lots and lots of features, anyone assuming that this made it too powerful was possibly slightly mistaken.

Lots of features is harder to balance than a few big features, but number of features is not, by itself, a reliable indication of power.

[strangebloke]

Hexes are pretty far from game breaking. They're actually pretty comparable to Bardic Inspiration. Maybe some of the Curses could be toned down, but none of them are something that you couldn't get by other means at level one, like resistance to fire (play a Tiefling) immune to being charmed (equivalent to elves immunity to sleep) etc. It's also worth noting that these don't scale at all, so while they might be decent at level 1, they don't gain potency as you level, and you can't grab additional curses. Great ribbon/flavor with a mild amount of mechanical use. Also, pretty much every hex requires your action, so unlike Bardic Inspiration, you can't use while also casting a spell or making a melee attack. This is important. I feel like a lot of people overestimate the Witch's abilities. They might have a lot of them, but they're ALL competing for action economy. That's not to be understated for instantly balancing what this can do.
Hexes are OP as hell.

1. they don't require concentration, just a bonus action each turn to maintain.
2. They are at-will
3. Many of them don't allow for saving throws on the rounds after they're first cast.
4. They don't scale, but they don't need to, because they're debuffs. "They must use their action to attack a creature of your choice" is awesome at any level. Restricting a creature to ten feet of movement is strong no matter the level. The reason that spells like suggestion, enthrall, etc. don't get used at higher levels is mostly because of concentration.
5. Some of them are strictly superior to second-level spells. Giving second-level spells at-will seems a bit unfair.

I'm not a talented homebrewer, but there's also something in the design that I really don't like: you're always picking from the same set of hexes. So at level one, you take the 2 that interest you the most, and at level 17... you take the seventh most intersting one. Should be like invocations where you have access to different ones as you level up.


Insidious spell initially made me nervous, because of how potent a Warlock/Witch multiclass could be. Maximizing EB damage every turn would be devastating, but notice it specifies WITCH cantrips, so they definitely covered their behinds on that one. Most Witch damage cantrips are very underwhelming, and using this feature takes away from our primary debuffer role. To be honest, I think we could lose this feature entirely, but it's by no means broken.
I would get rid of it. It has nothing to do with the core mechanic of the class, and is very possibly useless if character didn't take chill touch or acid splash. Way too much feature bloat.

Using your familiar, you can cast one of your spells with range self and have it concentrate on it for you. So, at level 7, you can concentrate on one hex, one spell of your choice, and have your familiar concentrate on a second spell. Yes, it's limited to range self, but NO other class gets to concentrate on two spells, ever. We were already skirting the line by allowing hex concentration and spell concentration, this is just over the top, even with the limits.
Yup.

I LOVE the cauldron feature at level 9. Witches brewing potions is very important to me flavor wise, and it's executed well, in fact it might be a little underwhelming. Your trading your versatile spell slots for potions you may or may not need that will become a waste after 24 hours. Balanced, flavorful, useful ribbon. I dig.
It's good, but not gamebreaking. You use it at the end of the day to use up all your slots you didn't use, and thereby you gain three potions for free. I don't think 3 health potions a day is overpowered or anything, but it is very nice.


TL;DR
-Either remove armor prof OR knock the Witch down to a d6 hit die
-Axe the Improved Familiar feature, probably completely. Familiars are already pretty darn strong.
-Get rid of the Forceful Personality Grand Hex OR make it level 20 only.
-Probably reduce number of Grand Hexes to 2.

I would let them keep the proficiency. They don't get mage armor or shield, so if they have no armor, they're running around with 10-15 AC max, which is, uh... Most people would play a tortle or lizardfolk if you did that.

While this would bring them more in line, I honestly don't think class is very coherent, like there were awesome ideas present and a lot of enthusiasm, but the class itself still isn't really a polished product. Much bigger fan of MFoV classes like the Alchemist. If you like it, Jolly Good! But it needs some hefty reworking.

[Ninja_Prawn]

If you think Crown of Madness is an Ok spell sometimes, then what is discord?

Fair point. I do feel crown of madness is underpowered for a 2nd level spell, and Discord doesn't inflict the Charmed condition, but I can see where you're coming from.


It's a Grand Hex:

Oh, right. Yeah... I agree with you here. I'd at least like to see something unique, rather than a straight copy-paste.

I never liked Insidious Spell, either. I distinctly recall speaking out against it, actually. :smallsigh:

[GandalfTheWhite]

Personally the Finagle feature is the only one I take issue with. Our Arcane Trickster felt pretty invalidated when the witch just blew up the lock he'd failed to pick.

If that's gone, I think it's fine. No other class is super-focused on debuffing, so it holds its own niche.

[Sariel Vailo]

With the full witch i like it.