PDA

View Full Version : Gender fluid elves



Douche
2018-05-24, 03:36 PM
Hey fellas,

In my world, the players will soon most likely travel to the land of elves. I want to be consistent with the image that WotC wants to portray, where elves can freely change their gender at their whim. Mostly because I find this to be a fascinating concept for a society.

However, I find that there is a delicate balance between portraying sexuality, versus making it a sole defining characteristic. It's too easy to put a trans character into a show and then they are simply "the trans one" rather than being a well defined character of their own.

Anyway scaling that to their whole society, I'm afraid that everyone will think that all elves are effeminate & hedonistic, rather than the timeless wardens who have shaped history.

What do y'all think I should do?

LibraryOgre
2018-05-24, 04:55 PM
The Mod Wonder: This is NOT a closure of the topic, just a note at the outset to leave politics at the door; discuss the topic, not your political beliefs regarding gender identity.

(End Mod Section; this next part is Mark the Poster, not the Mod Wonder)

Ad res, there's a lot of ways for this to play out.

Elves are physically fairly androgynous, and if you add in a culture of gender fluidity, you're probably not going to know anyone's sex for certain until you see them naked... but, depending on the climate, you might also see a lot of them naked or semi-naked. Flowing skirts and a blousy shirt might go either way; anyone might feel free to take off their shirt when doing heavy work, if they don't want their clothes dirty.

You might emphasize that elven doesn't have grammatical genders, nor gendered pronouns. Either pick some of the popular agendered pronouns and school yourself to use those when referencing elves, or go with "they" as a universal pronoun for any elf (I find that easier, rather than adding a new word).

Elven gender fluidity might also mean that, when dealing with less fluid people, there's... misunderstandings. Physically male but feminine elves attracted to straight male humans is the somewhat stereotypical version of this (I am reminded of Oglaf, with the king of the elves and the apprentice, but don't look that up at work), but you might also have physically female elves who identify as masculine and prefer more feminine partners... which, if you have a somewhat camp-gay human male in your party, might lead to similar situations.

Nifft
2018-05-24, 05:19 PM
Which was the book where WotC said that elves can change gender freely?


But let's just build on that...

- Ability to change gender does not imply gender fluidity. Some (or many) elves may just pick one gender and stick with it forever.

- Ability to change gender doesn't imply transexuality either. Some elves may be happy with whatever they got by chance at birth.

- Ability to change gender does imply that society won't care much about gender. This seems reasonable for what I've seen of Elf culture in the WotC books, with strong leaders & powerful adventurers being fairly evenly distributed.


I guess Elves would need a new word for intentionally fruitful sexual relationships, so they could ask a partner if s/he would be willing to change gender in order to procreate.


-- -- --

Alternately, if Elves are all female (because the male of the species is called a Dwarf), then male elves might only exist through transformation magic. But this is somewhat silly.

LordEntrails
2018-05-24, 05:27 PM
My understanding is that the ability to change sex for elves in mentioned in MToF for Eladrin. But, it is also listed as a that is no longer common. But, that a very small minority of elves do show this trait and are considered blessed and usually become priest/ess of Lorathalon (spelling!).

So, it's not that in WotC vision every elf can change when they want. But rather such ability to change is known among the elves and is considered a blessing in the rare cases that it does manifest.

As for how to deal with this, well, most of the time my players don't get involved sexually with NPCs. And most of the time they never ask the bartender that look likes a woman if they are a woman. Or if they used to be male.

I would still refer to the elves using gender pronouns, but, when the elves refer to themselves, have them use gender neutral pronouns. If you players catch on, it will be interesting and something they can explore if they want. If they don't notice, or don't care, then it's just one more trait among the many that you can use in describing and playing them.

Nifft
2018-05-24, 05:30 PM
I would still refer to the elves using gender pronouns, but, when the elves refer to themselves, have them use gender neutral pronouns. If you players catch on, it will be interesting and something they can explore if they want. If they don't notice, or don't care, then it's just one more trait among the many that you can use in describing and playing them.

Ooo, make a pronoun which in practice only refers to Elves.

It's the Elven gender-neutral pronoun, so they don't think anything of it except that they're being polite, but outsiders think they're being haughty and referring to themselves as some kind of higher life-form.

When you introduce a(n N)PC who isn't an Elf and also isn't gendered -- like a non-genered Warforged or whatever -- the Elves should use their "Elf-only" pronoun on that character also, to the confusion of some.

Geddy2112
2018-05-24, 05:57 PM
I second the androgyny of elves, as well as a genderless language. A lot of languages don't have gendered words or even gendered pronouns, so that's not incredibly unusual. Bonus points if they have a pronoun for elf that is something really snooty and "we are the best ancient guardians of nature etc", much like how the Hannar in Mass Effect use "This one" as a pronoun for basically any sentient life. You could go as far as making elves so gender fluid that they only have one gender, elf. They have biological sex, but no gender(also no sexual dimorphism).

The big thing is to not overdo it, and make it a subtle reference from the get go. You could describe the elves as androgynous and even difficult to tell apart without close interaction then call it good. Don't go making every hot elf slave girl into a trap-I find in general as long as you don't act like a child about sex/gender/etc your table won't as well. If your table is the kind to snicker and make immature jokes, then you have the wrong group to introduce such an elven society to.

Pleh
2018-05-24, 07:12 PM
It's worth considering how a gender fluid race reproduces. Elves can be so long lived that they probably don't have children frequently anyway, but it might be that gender isn't especially significant to their reproductive process. I'm reminded of Jurassic Park where the dinosaurs used the genetic advantage of frog DNA that was used to make them to change sex in an all female environment. Clearly, that story was just animals, not a race of sapient people, so they probably just reacted to instinctive impulses rather than making conscious decisions.

While the subject of reproduction probably shouldn't be directly important to a party of adventurers, it informs the elven cultural identity and philosophical perspective on their own sexuality, which is important for thematic tone and narrative framing. You only need to answer it to give this race a self coherent tone and atmosphere in the game.

After all, if an elf had the power to change sex and it only happened as they willed it, then logically they probably have a default which they began as for a subconscious starting point (or maybe even a neutral gender mode they begin with). Their "first change" would likely be informed by whatever attractions they felt and relationships they had, making themselves whatever gender gave them the most benefit to the relationships they wanted to have. Seems to me like they might stick with what they're born with until someone comes along that gives them a reason to change to make themselves more attractive and compatible with that person.

But the change might be partly or wholly subconscious for some or all elves as well, which would probably turn it into a more emotionally sensitive issue than it would already be. In this case, the change may only respond to sincere, powerful feelings about themselves and others with limited ability to consciously evoke or prohibit the changes.

Also, like Asari from Mass Effect with their Ardat-yakshi, you probably want to consider what happens when elves become evil and start using this ability in an abusive or manipulative manner. It has some potential to become a sexually predatory advantage. Again, this doesn't have to be a direct experience of the player characters in the game, but it develops thematic depth of elven culture to see how they deal with the problem (or if they even see it as a problem).

Also, if it's a voluntary bodily function, thus implies that some diseases, poisons, or disorders might affect their control of gender (unless the ability to change is simply magical in nature rather than biological, which could provide a host of other complications).

In general, I'd try to imagine first having this ability myself, then living in a culture with a world of people who can do the same (a generally good aligned, enlightened society). Gets you into the ballpark.

As for how to not lose the culture being advanced culturally to a hypersexualized hedonistic projection, all you have to do is introduce example characters as powerful, intelligent, and hyposexual creatures like any other. Show them giving lectures on advanced science and magic topics to demonstrate they have a passion for academia. Show them mercilessly carving up goblins in combat to show they aren't sqeamish about getting their hands dirty.

Gender fluidity represents a level of sexual liberty that humans lack. There's no avoiding this, so it might be best to show that humans *perceive* elves as hedonistic swingers just so you can subvert the prejudice by showing that sexual liberty is only one of many facets they are comprised of and it isn't even the one they should be defined by. They have literally written the book on history, architecture, engineering, magic, and more. They're not ashamed of their sexuality as many humans are, but it's just one of many things they naturally excel at.

Anymage
2018-05-24, 08:33 PM
Fantasy has always had a split between what it tells us about elves and what those elves actually do. You wouldn't be the first person who failed to grasp what a millenia long existence might actually do to a racial psyche, you won't be the last. So don't feel the need to get too detailed about it.

As far as gender and sexuality, you run into an issue where the less pronounced sex differences are, the less gender becomes a factor. And conversely, the less that a noticeable gender differences exist, the less likely someone is to feel that they were born into the wrong body. To use a real world example, many trans people are more concerned with top surgery (general body shape, including how you present to most of the outside world) than they are with bottom surgery (genitals).

Probably the easiest way to make elves alien without being obsessed with sexuality and/or gender would be to make them androgynous. Biological sex immediately stops mattering. You sidestep questions like what happens when a pregnant female magically swaps to male. One universal body plan makes their situation apparent any time you see a gathering of elves.

2D8HP
2018-05-24, 09:49 PM
As opposed to the promo video, In reading the relevant sidebar in Mordenkainnen's Tome of Foes you really don't have to do much of anything that greatly culturally distinguishes the Elves from a modern typical big City in California as far as I can tell, unless you want to.

It's a question of numbers, relarive status, and how much current Elves regret their change from the primal elves, and it's up to you as DM how similiar or different they are to humans, and I imagine there will be parallels with the elven attitude to the Eladrin.

Some Elven deities have had mutable genders at least since Jim Ward wrote up Corellon Larethian in the 1980 Deities & Demi-Gods book, but I noted while watching
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hgP6JnWh4Ig (at about 10 minutes into the video) that it looked like for an upcoming 5e D&D book some mortal Elves would be "blessed by Corellon", and may "once per long rest" change to female, male, or neither, and the evil Drow who "unlike other Elves are gendered" regard this as "subversive", and Drow with this ability become "heroes" that non-Drow Elves "welcome at temples of Corellon"

"THE BLESSED OF CORELLON
Ever changing, mirthful, and beautiful, the primal elves could assume whatever sex they liked. When they bowed to Lolth's influence and chose to fix their physical forms, elves lost ability to transform in this way. Yet occasionally elves are born who are so androgynous that they are proclaimed to be among the blessed of Corellon - living symbols of the god's love and of the primal elves' original fluid state of being. Many of Corellon's chief priests bear this blessing.
The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest - a miracle celebrated by all sorts except Drow. (The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.) Darl Elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society. If Corellon's blessing manifests in a drow, that elf usually flees to the surface world to seek shelter among those dedicated to Corellon."
Immediately I think of the promo videos that said "Eladrin are the elfiest elves", and how in the book "Of all the elves, eladrin are the closest in form and ability to the first generation of elves. Some could pass for high elves, but most are distinctly eladrin in appearance: very slender, with hair and skin color determined by the season which they feel the closest affinity".

Since an eladrin may when it "finishes a long rest, it can associate itself with a different season", and change their nature and appearance, and they are "haughty around other elves", I imagine that the "Blessed of Corellon" are similarly regarded as an elite among elves. I also imagine them being "mirthful" like primal elves rather than "melancholy" like the majority of elves

Elves are Chaotic, they value freedom and whim, and they "pay special attention to the ephemeral", so they like change.

I want to stress that most elves have a permanent gender (they are seperate male and female names in the PHB!), but some elves get to choose each long rest their physical sex each long rest, and elves value things that don't last.

Elves like change.

How to DM this?

First, take cues from players with elf PC's, how do they want their elf to be?

That should guide how common the ability is and how important elves regard it.

If the player wants to just play a "pointy eared human with Darkvision" I wouldn't make it a big deal, maybe just hsve a rare few elves with the ability be the equivalent of celebrity pop stars (who sing ch-ch--changes!).

If however you want to differentiate elves more, I"d have "genderfluid" surface elves be high status, with more High Elves than Wood Elves ('cause closer to eladrin) having the ability, and I'd make Drow with the ability be refugees or keep it secret.

I could actually imagine ambitious surface Elves without the ability leave their communities because all the top posts are reserved for elves with the "Blessing of Corellon"

A way that elves are different from humans that seems a bigger deal to me, is that Elvish children and elderly experience memories of lives that are not their current ones when they trance, so that may contribute to fluidity (I'm thinking of Dax on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine who had both male and female memories).

Another big difference between elves and humans is that "few elves grow up playing with brothers or sisters of similar age" because of "the rarity of elf births, siblings might be separated by decades, or even a century or more". So does the ability of some elves to change sex effect Elvish birthrates?

Perhaps those elves with the ability to change sex can't have children?

Or maybe only elves with the ability can have children?

Avigor
2018-05-25, 01:47 AM
First, a reminder that Adventurer's League allows players to use this if desired, meaning that while it is stated to be rare, PC's can basically do this whenever they want (as they are already exceptional anyways). Per MToF the primer:

The Blessed of Corellon:
Any elf character, new or old, may choose this option regardless of their PHB+1.

Anyhoot, IMO, a society where this ability is common or normal could go one of two ways:

1: As was suggested before, most typically choose one gender and stick with it. Whether this is because they just feel more comfortable in that form for some reason, they prefer that form's particular carnal differences, they base the choice on whether or not said gender gets pregnant, they have a kink for a specific race and gender outside their own race and choose the opposite gender to make seduction easier, or whatever other reason you can think of, they just have an extra ability for all practical purposes, kind of like a limited, once per day Alter Self for gender only instead of overall appearance or whatever.

2: They might swap genders regularly, whether out of curiosity of how others might react, because of different gender influences on hormones (i.e. have a slight personality influence, such as two similar but subtly different Personality Traits or maybe even Flaws that one trades between along with gender, alongside other traits that stay the same - just keep the Alignment, Bond, and Ideal the same) letting them "see the world out of two sets of eyes", some sort of belief that they should regularly change as some sort of natural cycle thing, or whatever other reasoning, and for the most part see gender as some sort of fluid part of their lives, possibly even pitying those mortals who lack the power to change their gender as said elves do.

EDIT: Fixed quote, didn't notice the copy-paste from the PDF included a 2nd line that wasn't needed here.

AmberVael
2018-05-25, 05:48 AM
So I see a lot of suggestions here for prevalence of non-gendered language and reliance on neutral pronouns, and to me, that seems to miss the point? We're not talking about a primarily agender society here, but a genderfluid one. It seems more accurate (and interesting) to me to focus on different genders being present and acknowledged, rather than shifting towards genders being ignored. Now I think gender neutral language would absolutely exist and be used in such a society... but if you invest in a gendered identity, you probably want that acknowledged rather than glossed over.

Of course, if your average person is fairly androgynous and may switch genders day to day, knowing what pronouns to use might be kinda tough. So, such a society would develop ways to signal. Perhaps in formal society, introductions are a big thing. You don't just get introduced once, but again and again to keep people appraised of your pronouns and other changes in status. In day to day life this would no doubt get shortened... so how about greetings that signal your pronouns? Perhaps a suffix affixed to a greeting, or common phrases that indicate what gender you're feeling that day. But of course even that might not be usable in all situations, so you might have other signals - certain colors or patterns in clothing might indicate a gender, for example.

As a final thought... its really, really important not to mix up gender identity and sexuality. Gender fluidity and gender identity have no bearing on what sexuality you have. In a gender fluid society this could make pursuing certain sexualities far more complex. But swapping genders around willy nilly as you please doesn't say anything about your sexuality. In short, gender fluid elves are as likely to be asexual as hypersexual.

Pleh
2018-05-25, 07:15 AM
As a final thought... its really, really important not to mix up gender identity and sexuality. Gender fluidity and gender identity have no bearing on what sexuality you have. In a gender fluid society this could make pursuing certain sexualities far more complex. But swapping genders around willy nilly as you please doesn't say anything about your sexuality. In short, gender fluid elves are as likely to be asexual as hypersexual.

I completely agree with your points, but I would just add a touch more nuance to this last one: "gender fluidity and gender identity don't *necessarily* have any bearing on what sexuality you have."

Saying that the scenario, "isn't black and white, but many shades of gray" is a correct statement, but it shouldn't be used to assert that therefore there are no individual cases of black or white to be found.

It's important to not *conflate* gender identity and sexuality, but it also seems incorrect to say that they share no mutual relationship whatsoever (at least in all individual cases). For some gender fluid elves, their gender will be used as part of the definition of their sexuality, while for others it will not. It's part of how they view themselves, after all, so it's likely that some will tie the two parts of themselves together (not that they need to do so, but that it's how they view themselves) while others simply won't (because they don't view themselves that way).

This would help play into the narrative theme for the humans wandering into elven cities that, "some of them are very much like us, while some of them are completely different." This feels like it serves the intended purpose of creating a "familiar, but alien" culture that themes like this one are usually best at creating.

Spore
2018-05-25, 07:24 AM
Which was the book where WotC said that elves can change gender freely?


I would love to know, too. As elves are a fantasy race, they might as well reproduce by smiling at a particularly beautiful tree and then harvest the elven babies from cherry blossoms.

But are there cold hard facts about the Elven biology in official WotC material? The only thing I know of is the romance Drizzt had with that one unicorn rider gal. She did not seem genderfluid however, or else I think the Drizzt fangirls would have fainted by the hundreds. (Unless you count the qualities of a battle hardened warrior as male traits, which I do not).

At their very core, elves are basically personified emotions to me (similar to Fey). They may even not have genders at all.

:vaarsuvius: Hello, my name is Varsuuvius and I am an elf.
:elan: Hello Vaarsuuvius. May I ask if you are a boy elf or a girl elf?
:vaarsuvius: Your racial heritage makes you believe, we have genders too. Elan, I am just an elf.

I really like the idea that elves have no sexual dimorphism, similar to dwarves (you'd never see a female dwarf in fantasy anyhow). Maybe dwarves are forged and then given flesh. Maybe elves are just a concentration of very powerful emotions given physical appearance. I helps making them more mystical again, rather than short stocky humans with beards or slender tall humans with pointy ears.

Pleh
2018-05-25, 07:41 AM
(you'd never see a female dwarf in fantasy anyhow).

I dunno. I've made some female dwarven clerics I was pretty proud of.

Something about that matriarchal, "mother bear" ferocity seems to really suit a female dwarf to me (like the small, crotchety, bearded drunkard suits the male dwarves). I get that image that she cradles an infant in the crook of her shield arm while crushing skulls with a hammer and/or mace with the other arm, all while shouting her patron deity's judgement on the vile abominations trespassing on the dwarven homelands. Just doesn't take crap from anyone and she's not afraid of getting her hands dirty or making a grown man-dwarf cry.

She's just that good at her job she doesn't need anyone to hold the baby for her while she saves the day (not that holding the baby was every "her job" to begin with, more likely that she didn't trust anyone else to do the job right). Sort of like how in some cultures there are warriors who keep long, delicate fingernails as a sign of their skill in combat that they can keep long nails without breaking them.

No, she doesn't have a beard. She does have long, flowing hair she keeps in a tight bun on her head, though.

Maybe I'm just drawing parallels between Dwarves and Klingons at this point.

2D8HP
2018-05-25, 07:44 AM
Which was the book where WotC said that elves can change gender freely?.


I would love to know, too. .


I must assume that you didn't read my post upthread.


:annoyed:


It's in Mordenkainnen's Tome of Foes, and it's not all elves and it's not freely all the time:

"The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest"


"THE BLESSED OF CORELLON
Ever changing, mirthful, and beautiful, the primal elves could assume whatever sex they liked. When they bowed to Lolth's influence and chose to fix their physical forms, elves lost ability to transform in this way. Yet occasionally elves are born who are so androgynous that they are proclaimed to be among the blessed of Corellon - living symbols of the god's love and of the primal elves' original fluid state of being. Many of Corellon's chief priests bear this blessing.
The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest - a miracle celebrated by all sorts except Drow. (The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.) Darl Elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society. If Corellon's blessing manifests in a drow, that elf usually flees to the surface world to seek shelter among those dedicated to Corellon."

Spore
2018-05-25, 07:56 AM
I must assume that you didn't read my post upthread.


:annoyed:


It's in Mordenkainnen's Tome of Foes, and it's not all elves and it's not freely all the time:

"The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest"

Uhm, yea no. I don't have the time to read all of your several paragraphs before entering a discussion. If I did that I'd only have time to read forums, eat and work. And sometimes brevity is the soul of wit. Actually most of the times. :smalltongue:

So it's a divine blessing. If there is no notion about a race-wide ability to do so, I do not know if an entire thread is warranted. It is individuals that can do it.

I would DM it like such. It is a divine blessing but it doesn't have to be seen as such by followers of other religions. People should be confused, belittling or even angry because they felt tricked. Some don't care at all, other would be curious, again others could be admiring them.

Solaris
2018-05-25, 07:56 AM
I was just thinking about this yesterday, actually.

Elves are significantly less sexually dimorphic than humans are. It's only natural that they would emphasize gender less than humans do. We have traditional gender roles due to biological differences - differences that elves mainly lack. Ergo, it's unlikely that they'd have developed as pronounced gender roles as we did. I do doubt that they would have too much trouble telling boy-elves from girl-elves - that kind of problem can lead to a species going extinct, unless they're able to gender-swap more or less at will. While sequential hermaphroditism is unknown in mammals, so is living for a thousand years.

That also supports the supposition that elven would not have as gendered language as we do. It's simply not as big a deal for them as it is for us.

This also supports low birthrates - elves would probably trend a lot more towards bisexuality than we do, and I doubt that their reproductive urges are as strong or frequent as ours are.

The upshot? The elves would be far less concerned about it than you are, so don't make a big deal about it. I would run it by referring to "non-binary" elves as simply elves, and have them be at least a substantial plurality of the encountered elves, and refer to the more obvious gendered elves as "he" or "she" as appropriate. Other than that, it's probably not going to come up outside of background text. After all, how many games have you been in that discussed the reproductive habits of the involved races?

CantigThimble
2018-05-25, 08:09 AM
So, the Blessed of Corellon thing says that certain elves can switch sex not that they switch gender. I'm guessing most with this trait would probably settle into whichever sex best fit their gender and spend most of their time like that. (after an exceptionally tempestuous puberty most likely)

Only if you had one of the rare elves with this trait who also considered themselves to be gender fluid would there be any regular swapping.

Douche
2018-05-25, 09:26 AM
To those of you who pointed out that only the "chosen" get to change their gender, I guess you're right. I didn't mean to misrepresent WotC depiction, rather that I wanted to take this to an extreme and make it be a common facet among elven culture. I initially imagined it to be 100% of them (which wouldn't matter since none of the PCs are elves) but I can see how that's a bit ridiculous.. All of them being agendered or genderless would make more sense than an entire race changing genders on command. (although, come to think of it, there are several aquatic species that can do it)

I still want it to be a large percentage though. Maybe like 1/3 to 1/2, Enough that it is a major part of their society, rather than some obscure blessing.


Of course, if your average person is fairly androgynous and may switch genders day to day, knowing what pronouns to use might be kinda tough. So, such a society would develop ways to signal. Perhaps in formal society, introductions are a big thing. You don't just get introduced once, but again and again to keep people appraised of your pronouns and other changes in status. In day to day life this would no doubt get shortened... so how about greetings that signal your pronouns? Perhaps a suffix affixed to a greeting, or common phrases that indicate what gender you're feeling that day. But of course even that might not be usable in all situations, so you might have other signals - certain colors or patterns in clothing might indicate a gender, for example.


I like this idea. I am imagining an elf saying "Hello, I am Velnitas, my pronouns are he/him". Simple, and gets the message across.


I really like the idea that elves have no sexual dimorphism, similar to dwarves (you'd never see a female dwarf in fantasy anyhow). Maybe dwarves are forged and then given flesh. Maybe elves are just a concentration of very powerful emotions given physical appearance. I helps making them more mystical again, rather than short stocky humans with beards or slender tall humans with pointy ears.

The dwarves in my world are all male! They're born from clay though.


So, the Blessed of Corellon thing says that certain elves can switch sex not that they switch gender. I'm guessing most with this trait would probably settle into whichever sex best fit their gender and spend most of their time like that. (after an exceptionally tempestuous puberty most likely)

Only if you had one of the rare elves with this trait who also considered themselves to be gender fluid would there be any regular swapping.


I dunno man I mean there are lots of practical implications of being able to change gender/sex that have nothing to do with reproduction. Like if you wanted to seduce your mortal enemy to get him to lower his guard and then STAB HIM IN THE THROAT

khadgar567
2018-05-25, 09:57 AM
while you personallynot need to much focus on gender fluidness of elves as long as some one perception checked the target or the proverbial "alex fierro*" of your cast tells them there current gender. i think you dont have to much problem if you have trouble deciding or be polite japanese atleast has -dono suffix to keep the situation checked.


* from magnus chase series she/ he was argr and has power to change her/ his gender. lot of the team have problem with identfy her/him in books besides hero.

2D8HP
2018-05-25, 10:00 AM
Uhm, yea no. I don't have the time to read all of your several paragraphs before entering a discussion.



:frown:


If I did that I'd only have time to read forums, eat and work....



:confused:

There's more to life than that?


...elves would be far less concerned about it than you are, so don't make a big deal about it. I would run it by referring to "non-binary" elves as simply elves, and have them be at least a substantial plurality of the encountered elves, and refer to the more obvious gendered elves as "he" or "she" as appropriate. Other than that, it's probably not going to come up outside of background text. After all, how many games have you been in that discussed the reproductive habits of the involved races?


As a DM I could think of a few background details, but nothing much for players to interact with.

As a player?

Maybe a Charlatan or spy character could make use of it as an aide to disguise, but that only works among those who don't guess the ability.

I think I lack imagination.


To those of you who pointed out that only the "chosen" get to change their gender, I guess you're right. I didn't mean to misrepresent WotC depiction, rather that I wanted to take this to an extreme and make it be a common facet among elven culture. I initially imagined it to be 100% of them (which wouldn't matter since none of the PCs are elves) but I can see how that's a bit ridiculous.. All of them being agendered or genderless would make more sense than an entire race changing genders on command. (although, come to think of it, there are several aquatic species that can do it)

I still want it to be a large percentage though. Maybe like 1/3 to 1/2, Enough that it is a major part of their society, rather than some obscure blessing....


I can imagine elves adjusting their sex based on the perceived need for births, but that's not really something that players would interact with much.

If the players don't know than you have more options with an NPC that can disguise themselves i.e. "That wasn't me, that was my sibling".

hewhosaysfish
2018-05-25, 01:30 PM
I like this idea. I am imagining an elf saying "Hello, I am Velnitas, my pronouns are he/him". Simple, and gets the message across.

I like the idea of elven language having gendered (or should that be "sex-specific"?) 1st-person pronouns and non-gendered 3rd-person pronouns.

I like it because it's the opposite of what English (and by implication Common) does but it makes sense: it allows the elves to express themselves and doesn't require them to make assumptions about others.

The Jack
2018-05-25, 02:38 PM
All the traps I can think of

-Resist making Elves a perfect race if you do this. Not just for balance, narrative balance, or whatever, but you also need to consider that people don't like "Mary sue"and'll build up frustrations for them. At the same time, you can't really have elves that hate people that are too-gendered or something of such, because that's also a problem. You don't need to go for postmodern inclusivity, like a race that can switch gender on whim won't necessarily have every conceivable sexuality/gender identity niche down, nor are they likely to be super warm to humans that are "confused and think they're like elves"

-When people go for androgynous, they often swing too feminine. Really try to think about that middle ground.

Personally, as far as elves have gone, I've only ever liked drow. Generally I'm not a fan of optimistic settings. I'd rather rage against injustice than have it all wiped out before I get there, for narrative purposes.

Nifft
2018-05-25, 05:24 PM
So I see a lot of suggestions here for prevalence of non-gendered language and reliance on neutral pronouns, and to me, that seems to miss the point? We're not talking about a primarily agender society here, but a genderfluid one. It seems more accurate (and interesting) to me to focus on different genders being present and acknowledged, rather than shifting towards genders being ignored. Now I think gender neutral language would absolutely exist and be used in such a society... but if you invest in a gendered identity, you probably want that acknowledged rather than glossed over. No, it's more that an elf cannot know the current gender of another elf unless that elf is present and presently displaying a blatant gender, or has gendered him- or her-self during the current conversation.

Unlike non-elf races, where gender is consistent from day to day, any elf ought to know that the polite thing to do is not make assumptions about an elf's gender.

Having a strong gender identity might be an oddity amongst elves -- perhaps there are some elves who adamantly demand to be a him or a her, and using a gendered pronoun for those specific individuals is a bit like using a title.


I must assume that you didn't read my post upthread.


:annoyed:
Given that my post preceded yours in time, and given that I'm sadly limited to a linear temporal experience, it's a little preposterous of you to get annoyed that I didn't read your post before you had posted it.

If you can share with me the secrets of non-linear time perception, perhaps I can avoid that sort of thing going forward. Or forward and backward, as it will have were.


It's in Mordenkainnen's Tome of Foes, Thanks.

2D8HP
2018-05-25, 05:35 PM
...Given that my post preceded yours in time...


I was teasing Sporeegg, I quoted you for context.


Thanks.


Your welcome.

It's mostly lore and new monsters, but I've liked MToF's, and from it I'm finding how the Elves age, and experience memories makes them the most different from humans, and would be hard for me to role-play.

Worldbuilding-wise there's some good stuff in it.

Solaris
2018-05-25, 08:15 PM
There's more to life than that?

One presumes.
I have yet to encounter it, personally.



As a DM I could think of a few background details, but nothing much for players to interact with.

As a player?

Maybe a Charlatan or spy character could make use of it as an aide to disguise, but that only works among those who don't guess the ability.

I think I lack imagination.

Eh, you and me both. I really can't come up with anything beyond flavor text and background details that I doubt more than one player in a hundred would actually bother to read, and even then that stuff wouldn't have a significant impact on the culture other than "the elves aren't surprised to see a female fighter, the humans are, the dwarves wonder who let her out of the kitchen."

AmberVael
2018-05-25, 08:30 PM
No, it's more that an elf cannot know the current gender of another elf unless that elf is present and presently displaying a blatant gender, or has gendered him- or her-self during the current conversation.

Unlike non-elf races, where gender is consistent from day to day, any elf ought to know that the polite thing to do is not make assumptions about an elf's gender.
Sure. I could see gender neutral language being more prevalent in order to achieve politeness and not make assumptions.


Having a strong gender identity might be an oddity amongst elves -- perhaps there are some elves who adamantly demand to be a him or a her, and using a gendered pronoun for those specific individuals is a bit like using a title.

...but this doesn't follow. People can care about their gender without being the same gender day after day. That's whole point of genderfluid.

Nifft
2018-05-25, 10:36 PM
Sure. I could see gender neutral language being more prevalent in order to achieve politeness and not make assumptions.

...but this doesn't follow. People can care about their gender without being the same gender day after day. That's whole point of genderfluid.

If you use gender-neutral pronouns by default, then those few people who care enough to defy social convention and demand that you use a specific gender pronoun would be exceptional.

So: I think it does follow.

Not because gender-fluidity is the default, but because presuming continuity of gender is NOT the default for an Elf.


However, if you get upset about people not getting your gender correct but you refuse to be consistent about which one you are, I'd expect people to eventually become annoyed with your behavior. Hmm, maybe that's exactly what elves are known to do -- that would certainly fit the "haughty" stereotype, if some of them look down on people for not correctly guessing what their gender of the day might be.

It wouldn't be most elves, of course, but those few who behaved in such a manner might shape the perception of outsiders who don't know any other elves personally.

TheCount
2018-05-26, 01:35 AM
-snip-

You might emphasize that elven doesn't have grammatical genders, nor gendered pronouns. Either pick some of the popular agendered pronouns and school yourself to use those when referencing elves, or go with "they" as a universal pronoun for any elf (I find that easier, rather than adding a new word).

Elven gender fluidity might also mean that, when dealing with less fluid people, there's... misunderstandings. Physically male but feminine elves attracted to straight male humans is the somewhat stereotypical version of this (I am reminded of Oglaf, with the king of the elves and the apprentice, but don't look that up at work), but you might also have physically female elves who identify as masculine and prefer more feminine partners... which, if you have a somewhat camp-gay human male in your party, might lead to similar situations.

As someone whose mother/native language is like that, i can admit that, just like in the joke, we can have whole conversations without mentioning someone's gender. Also, you can add some elves frustration if they are still learning a language about gendered pronouns.... especially if it uses them like french *shivers*

You could use thier culture too. Im thinking mostly of Gender equality, bonus points if you just call positions with gender neutral words, like military ranks or just not using female versions like mistress.... or using them for both gender.

Also, just two pictue:

https://i.imgur.com/tRYsarc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LTV20ta.png

Lorsa
2018-05-26, 02:11 AM
While I would like to participate in the discussion about gender fluidity, pronouncs and sexuality, I unforntunately don't have the time. But whoever said that sexuality and gender are two different things has the right of it, and also that the ability to swap sex doesn't mean that gender is meaningless.

One thing you could do with sexuality in a gender-fluid and sex-swapping society is to make pansexuality or demisexuality the most common. While those are both different, neither is intrinsically gender specific, so even if a partner would change sex on a weekly or daily basis, it wouldn't cause a problem.

I am not sure how quickly you (that is Douche) plans on making the sex switch work. Does it takes seconds, minutes, hours or days? Is it done during meditation or some other ritual or just an "at-will" ability?

What I would do if I had gender fluid and sex swapping elves would be to have the PCs encounter a man during their first visit in the the elven city, who would introduce himself and offer to show them around tomorrow.

The next day, a woman would come knocking at their door. She would be quite surprised at any possible confusion from the PCs, and say that "we decided I would come and guide you today". Then she would introduce herself again, using the same name, and if the PCs point out the obvious difference in sex, she would say "oh, I'm sorry, I just felt more like a woman today!".

Most likely I would also try to arrange for some awkward romantic situations, if any PCs manages to successfully start a romantic relationship with an elf, that person might later swap sex and be very hurt/upset if the PC suddenly isn't interested anymore. Alternatively, an elf that has the hots for a PC might swap sex to fit their sexuality. So they might find out, afterwards, that the woman they had sex with today was the same person as the man they rejected yesterday. Not everyone likes to introduce that sort of stuff in their games, but I think it can be quite interesting to see how the players react to such situations.

In any case, gender fuildity means (as far as I understood), that you sometimes feel like one gender, and sometimes the other. Combined with the ability to change sex at will, it means you would also have the physical body that matches your gender identity. That still means that gender has a meaning (whatever it is), because if it didn't, then they'd all be agendered, not gender fluid.

War_lord
2018-05-26, 04:10 AM
Why would Elves have the same version of the gender construct as Humans? If sex mutability has been an aspect of their history for their entire existence, and their gods have no fixed form, there's no reason they'd have the attached social baggage we call gender.

Spore
2018-05-26, 05:18 AM
Why would Elves have the same version of the gender construct as Humans?

Because if female elves bear children, they are naturally closer to the security of the community for a short period of time - and I mean VERY short. Elf gestation ranges from 9 months to two years which is still extremely short compared to their life spans. And assuming elves just somehow plopped out of the Feywild as an advanced species someday there is no evolution from "proto-elves" or similar that would lead to a hunter-gatherer society with split specializations.

So no, while there might be SLIGHT predispositions, I feel elves are by virtue of their lore Mary-Sues.

The Jack
2018-05-26, 07:01 AM
I think there's still a good deal of problems.

Let's say war. For humans, the "Ideal" is that the men go out to war while the women stay safe at home, that way if the men are decimated the population can recover much quicker than if all the women went out.

For fluid elves, they don't have a clear distinction of who should go out, who's priority. They could risk the entire colony, or they could send nobody out, because there'd be less sense of duty/social obligation. Either way it makes extinction more likely. Maybe they'd designate rolls over their long lives, but that's got a good risk of being either unfair or diversifying the cultural attitude of the race in a way that's not great (militants/civilians). Maybe they'd become ultra-adverse to conflict or over-reliant on magic.

Maybe on the other hand they lack the internal conflict to drive the race forward. Human technology and culture advances because people want to overcome issues and are diverse which lets them spitball ideas and interests. Genderfluidity, on top of all the other things the elves have got, would really kill a good deal of inovation. Elvish art would be awful, it would mean much less, because they'd have less issues to discuss or express.

War_lord
2018-05-26, 08:20 AM
I think there's still a good deal of problems.

Let's say war. For humans, the "Ideal" is that the men go out to war while the women stay safe at home, that way if the men are decimated the population can recover much quicker than if all the women went out.

Elves aren't humans. Human women have a very short (in Elven terms) period of time in which they're capable of baring any young. Assuming Elven fertility is tied to their total population (since elves reincarnate from a fixed ancestor), there's a cap, so Elven societies don't gain anything from forcing their women to spend their (very long) lives reproducing. Lets assume elven women have four kids each, and that gestation is two years. That's still only 12 years of incapacity out of a 750 year life span.


For fluid elves, they don't have a clear distinction of who should go out, who's priority. They could risk the entire colony, or they could send nobody out, because there'd be less sense of duty/social obligation.

You haven't explained how there'd be less sense of social obligation. Fluid Elves would probably allocate roles based on merit and choice, rather then brute force.


Either way it makes extinction more likely.

Citation needed.


Maybe they'd designate rolls over their long lives, but that's got a good risk of being either unfair or diversifying the cultural attitude of the race in a way that's not great (militants/civilians). Maybe they'd become ultra-adverse to conflict or over-reliant on magic.

They're Chaotic Good, that's unlikely to result in a tyranny.


Maybe on the other hand they lack the internal conflict to drive the race forward. Human technology and culture advances because people want to overcome issues and are diverse which lets them spitball ideas and interests. Genderfluidity, on top of all the other things the elves have got, would really kill a good deal of inovation. Elvish art would be awful, it would mean much less, because they'd have less issues to discuss or express.

Well, for thousands of years of real human history art was entirely man-centric, yet we still managed to produce important works. Who knows what other great works weren't produced because we arbitrarily excluded anyone without a penis. And Elves are very diverse, that's what the "Chaotic" part is about. By your own logic humans in D&D should be in the stone age because they only come in one form.

Anymage
2018-05-26, 09:16 AM
*SNIP*

If we're talking about hardnosed realism problems, a humanlike species living for centuries without racking up debilities from accidents or conflict raises bigger problems than a genderfluid species. To say nothing of issues like the ecology of D&D worlds. We either shrug and accept that it's fantasy and we shouldn't overthink it, or we shrug and say that there's some magic out there to patch up the issues, which amounts to the same thing.

I'd probably go about making my elves into woke elves somewhat differently. But implementation issues aside, elves have been androgynous in plenty of media now. Making them genderfluid isn't that big a step.

The Jack
2018-05-26, 01:36 PM
it just feels cheap, that horrible problems with sexual identity/orientation can be entirely avoided if you were just born into the right r...

Ok, some real world cultures are more accepting than others, but not to the degree proposed.


I dunno, there's the classic "elves are gay" perception and then there's "elves are now an inclusive device for minority sex/identities". Maybe I'm still butthurt about the new WoD getting ruined by that stuff (Was originally a dark satire, now a rainbow of progressive values) so I'm wary


It's very easy to imagine a lot of
"so here's my character..."
"sorry, I don't want to run my elves that way"
*gets upset*

A decent portion of GM's only like the player's handbook races that are more mundane/near human, and it kinda pushes elves away a bit.

Nifft
2018-05-26, 01:46 PM
(Was originally a dark satire, now a rainbow of progressive values) so I'm wary

Mordenkainen says: "Just make rainbows evil."

War_lord
2018-05-26, 02:52 PM
it just feels cheap, that horrible problems with sexual identity/orientation can be entirely avoided if you were just born into the right r...

The horrible problem is intolerance.


Ok, some real world cultures are more accepting than others, but not to the degree proposed.

We're discussing magical elves in D&D.


I dunno, there's the classic "elves are gay" perception and then there's "elves are now an inclusive device for minority sex/identities".

https://imgur.com/a/GbQGD6O

AD&D 1st edition, Gygax himself. The "classic" perception is Corellon as genderfluid, Corellon becomes a "he" in AD&D 2nd edition because that was when they were removing anything that could possibly set off religious or "concerned parent" groups. By 3rd edition, Corellon's called androgynous, but still a "he". The current lore is actually a return to the "classic" conception.


Maybe I'm still butthurt about the new WoD getting ruined by that stuff (Was originally a dark satire, now a rainbow of progressive values) so I'm wary

It's very easy to imagine a lot of
"so here's my character..."
"sorry, I don't want to run my elves that way"
*gets upset*

If I had a DM throwing around the term "ruined" in relation to this I would be pretty upset, because D&D elves have literally always been ambiguous on the gender and sexuality spectrum. It's just that it was bowdlerized to appease first moral guardians under TSR, and then under WoTC to appease the "gamer dude" crowd.


A decent portion of GM's only like the player's handbook races that are more mundane/near human, and it kinda pushes elves away a bit.

The only mundane player race besides humans are the Halflings, and they're notoriously boring.

Solaris
2018-05-27, 09:44 AM
I dunno, there's the classic "elves are gay" perception and then there's "elves are now an inclusive device for minority sex/identities". Maybe I'm still butthurt about the new WoD getting ruined by that stuff (Was originally a dark satire, now a rainbow of progressive values) so I'm wary

OP is asking about their game, not yours. I don't run my elves as switching genders, biologically or magically, but that doesn't mean I can't offer something more helpful than "Eww, gross!" by weighing in on the implications.

It's not like anybody is exactly talking about something that's vastly different from the standard tropes.


It's very easy to imagine a lot of
"so here's my character..."
"sorry, I don't want to run my elves that way"
*gets upset*

What's wrong with an early warning system for easily buttmangled players who aren't a good fit for your game?


A decent portion of GM's only like the player's handbook races that are more mundane/near human, and it kinda pushes elves away a bit.

You say that like the tendency for rubber forehead aliens is a good thing.

Douche
2018-05-30, 01:07 PM
So the party encountered an elf living in a human city and I decided to ease them into the idea rather than go full blast "genderfluid society"

She started as an elven noblewoman who noticed them being bold adventurers and invited them to dinner at her house. They showed up and the door was answered by a MAN! Who just happened to have similar facial features and the same hair. They were initially perplexed, catching onto something, until he explained that he was the noblewoman from before. They were remarkably tolerant and I expected more trans jokes. One guy tried to make a gender pronoun joke and call him "it" which I shut down. Actually, the first time no one laughed so he tried again and I shut him down. Classic.

She offered them a quest to recover some ancient artifact, because I designed a dungeon and want to shoehorn it in any way I can. Then the bard did the bard thing and seduced him (but he turned back into a woman for him) and after a few good rolls she let them all borrow a horse and provided rations for their excursion.

Overall I actually thought it was a really positive experience, which is really eye opening because I don't consider myself to be a progressive whatsoever.

SaintRidley
2018-06-08, 03:26 AM
I'm a fan of the gendered first person pronoun without gendered third person pronouns idea for Elven language. Signalling the speaker's gender through their self-referential pronoun is a solid idea. For simplicity's sake, a binary option could be I (feminine) and E (masculine) as first person pronouns.




The only mundane player race besides humans are the Halflings, and they're notoriously boring.

Well, in Faerun. They're much less boring when you give them dinosaurs (Eberron) or cannibalism (Athas). Or, I suppose, if you give them pirate ships and racism against the tall folk like I do in my own games.

The Jack
2018-06-08, 06:32 AM
I usually dislike messing with pronouns. English isn't really built for it, and if you're going to put it in another language you need to do the whole language. I remember reading Mage20 and early on some lunatic was insisting on using Xi or Xir or something, but because the book was the messy work of a hundred writers, everyone after just used he or she when they wanted to.

There really isn't much point in gendering I. It makes things exclusive not inclusive
(But for I I'd go for Ir and Im, for her and him)

Thinking about it. I think all the genderfluid elves would just settle for one set of pronoun, probably the "masculine" ones as they're more nuetral/shorter.

Rhedyn
2018-06-08, 07:53 AM
As amusing as Order of the Stick elves are, I always considered elves kind of stuffy, fixed, and traditional.

I think the Gender change thing would be something younger elves do while the older elves will settle into state.

I would say male and female elves would be distinct like in LotR, but the society would necessarily have less sexism because that role is basically voluntary.

It also wouldn't make sense for male or female elves to have different physical abilities even if they look different.

Segev
2018-06-08, 01:18 PM
Elves are physically fairly androgynous, and if you add in a culture of gender fluidity, you're probably not going to know anyone's sex for certain until you see them naked... but, depending on the climate, you might also see a lot of them naked or semi-naked. Flowing skirts and a blousy shirt might go either way; anyone might feel free to take off their shirt when doing heavy work, if they don't want their clothes dirty.In Terry Pratchet's Discworld novels, dwarves are very private about their physical sex. They don't discuss it even in polite but intimate situations. The last step of dwarven marriage practices, right around consummation, tends to be "hope you guessed right."

Though my preferred joke is that all elves are female; the males of the race are called "dwarves." :smalltongue:


Ability to change gender does imply that society won't care much about gender. This seems reasonable for what I've seen of Elf culture in the WotC books, with strong leaders & powerful adventurers being fairly evenly distributed.Most cultural real-world reasons for caring about gender have to do with child-bearing and the limitations of male and female biology wrt that activity. There is a lot of additional social stuff built on top of it, but that lies at its root.

In a race where biological sex is a choice that can be made with reasonable freedom - i.e. as long as it's not a once-only or a once-in-a-very-very-long-time thing, so waiting for the next opportunity to switch isn't a huge deal - social role would dictate biological sex rather than sex having any determining factor on social role.

Are you a warrior? You probably are expected to be male (unless dimorphism is such that females are more capable warriors). you also are expected not to indulge in sex while female, because being pregnant would be inconvenient in your line of work. Are you the home-maker? You are probably expected to be female, or at least to be female often enough to be the childbearer in your relationship.

Though in practice, you'd probably see most being male most of the time, especially if they're particularly promiscuous or sexually active with non-committed partners, because being randomly pregnant is inconvenient.

Alternatively, being female could be the norm (especially if females are the larger and stronger sex), and it's just expected that no non-lesbian sex will happen if one doesn't aim to become pregnant. Being male might even be seen as presumptuous and lewd, because it indicates an intent to mate for the purpose of procreation. Culturally, an elf who gets another elf pregnant might be expected to stay male so as not to accidentally become pregnant, himself, while he supports his mate through this time. And be seen as owing a secondary position to the one who is doing the hard work of this relationship at this time.

And, of course, if the culture has a hedonistic bent, the fetishization of one or the other sex would happen, and if any harems existed, they would have the subservient members of the harem be expected to be the subservient sex. Though if such indulgences are the prerogatives of ruler-types, who are expected to make decisions and not be hindered by things like pregnancy, it is likely that it would be the harem-lead that is male and the harem-members that are female, if only to keep the lead from being encumbered when he's supposed to be ruling/working/whatever. Or, with good abortifaceints or very good birth control, it could be just when the harem lead wants kids that she becomes male and insists one of her harem-boys becomes female to accommodate. (Morality of abortion, like morality of most of this stuff, depends largely on in-setting truths that, this being fiction, can be defined by the individual DMs or authors.)


I guess Elves would need a new word for intentionally fruitful sexual relationships, so they could ask a partner if s/he would be willing to change gender in order to procreate.Good point; there probably would be a verb corresponding roughly to "mate" rather than simply "have sex" or "make love," to indicate that intent.


Alternately, if Elves are all female (because the male of the species is called a Dwarf), then male elves might only exist through transformation magic. But this is somewhat silly.Hee. I see I'm not the only one who likes making that joke.


Ooo, make a pronoun which in practice only refers to Elves.

It's the Elven gender-neutral pronoun, so they don't think anything of it except that they're being polite, but outsiders think they're being haughty and referring to themselves as some kind of higher life-form.

When you introduce a(n N)PC who isn't an Elf and also isn't gendered -- like a non-genered Warforged or whatever -- the Elves should use their "Elf-only" pronoun on that character also, to the confusion of some.Heck, it could be the word "elf." Other races heard them using it to refer to each other so often that they thought it was their race name.

"Did you see Samadrian the other day? Elf's got elfself a paramour; no other reason elf'd be wearing that much makeup."

jayem
2018-06-08, 02:09 PM
Most cultural real-world reasons for caring about gender have to do with child-bearing and the limitations of male and female biology wrt that activity. There is a lot of additional social stuff built on top of it, but that lies at its root.

Are you a warrior? You probably are expected to be male (

If you've really got the ability to change, why would you even stop there.
You're a warrior, would you not be even better with even less plumbing (and sensitive external areas). Other than to try and enforce one of our cultures on them.

You could have at least 4 'sexes' each more or less independently depending on the season
Lactating, Womb, Sperm and Large-lungs

Segev
2018-06-08, 02:26 PM
If you've really got the ability to change, why would you even stop there.
You're a warrior, would you not be even better with even less plumbing (and sensitive external areas). Other than to try and enforce one of our cultures on them.

You could have at least 4 'sexes' each more or less independently depending on the season
Lactating, Womb, Sperm and Large-lungs
Sure, if "no genitals" is an option, go for it! I'm assuming this is actually just swapping sexes, not a more generalized shapeshifting that gives "neuter" as an option. Heck, if it's "humanoidish" shapeshifting, go for a technically-neuter form that looks like the burliest and most flexible of athletes.

wumpus
2018-06-08, 02:28 PM
Though my preferred joke is that all elves are female; the males of the race are called "dwarves." :smalltongue:

Do *not* go accusing a dwarf of being an elf, or anything similar. Dwarves may consider the fact that half of them are women to be biologically distasteful, but dwarves see elves as something to be destroyed on sight: not "merely" a long racial enemy/rival like the trolls.

But in general, genderfluid dwarves (especially of Pratchett bent) makes more sense. At least it would make for less issues in having offspring for the 50% who didn't guess right (although considering Carrot's adoption, they obviously can get around that without much issue). Another possibility would be a more "haploid/insect" system with a Queen dwarf and her court of drones: all PCs and other NPCs in non-dwarf areas would be workers. [Note that "workers" are actually fertile females, but the genetics work in such a way that the other workers work together to prevent each other from cheating. I'd assume that dwarf workers would be male, but you could always spring the surprise of keeping them female on your players].

If you want biologically consistent elves (in a world with fire breathing dragons with huge mass to wing ratio that can somehow still fly...), child rearing might get interesting...

possibility #1: elves are in fact an "elder race". Elven evolution kept going long after there was any external threat to elves (orcs are minor pests, and presumably the drow had no effect on this). Therefore there is no need for specific gender roles for warfare/defense, and thus no need for gender specific nuturing roles either. Or perhaps Corellon wasn't interested in weighing elves down with a specific gender.

possibility #2: elves mature at human speed. Between their quick maturity and how rarely they are born, elves simply lack any need for specific roles based around supporting children/families. Elves first and foremost have to excel at elven society. Elven "family" (for raising physically immature elves) might be only a quick timeout followed by long-term reentry into elven society.

[obviously, these are hardly mutually exclusive]

- followup: Generally speaking, this implies that there must be "juvenile" elves who are physically mature, but don't begin to have the sophistication expected of a mature elf of a few centuries (ok, many D&D elves don't live this long, but elves are expected to have a certain *glamor*). So what do they do between "growing up" and becoming full-fledged elves in all their snootiness? Are they elf-pages? Is there a massive investment in growing a "proper" elf? Since raising an physically mature elf is relatively cheap, are they considered expendable and not loved as human children and considered (thus leading to relatively young elf adventurers?). Are they raised by the family, "house", or settlement (presumably as pages and similar?)?

Or of course you could go back to my original comment about (Pratchett) dwarfs hating (Pratchett) elves. Pratchett wrote about old-school elves:
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad

Segev
2018-06-08, 02:38 PM
But in general, genderfluid dwarves (especially of Pratchett bent) makes more sense. At least it would make for less issues in having offspring for the 50% who didn't guess right (although considering Carrot's adoption, they obviously can get around that without much issue). Another possibility would be a more "haploid/insect" system with a Queen dwarf and her court of drones: all PCs and other NPCs in non-dwarf areas would be workers. [Note that "workers" are actually fertile females, but the genetics work in such a way that the other workers work together to prevent each other from cheating. I'd assume that dwarf workers would be male, but you could always spring the surprise of keeping them female on your players].

The insect-queen/hive structure for reproduction really only works with the genders as they are because they're egg-layers. For mammalian-style internal-gestating creatures, the womb-bearing member of a mating pair needs to be either 1:1 or the more prevalent sort. As much as I'm sure some female warlords would enjoy harems of male consorts, for reproductive purposes the male harem lead with multiple wives is the more efficient. One man with 9 wives can have 9 (or more) kids in one year. One woman with 9 husbands might manage to get octuplets; it has happened. But it is ridiculously unlikely; she is far more likely to have 1-3 with heavy weighting towards "1" no matter how many husbands she has.

Dwarf or elf, unless they're egg-layers, you're going to want the "King" and his "Harem" as the reproductive core.

One way to do it would be neutered (males or females, if either) as the "worker" caste, with "promotion" to the court as haremettes causing a biological shift to female. If the King becomes unavailable, one of the members of the court undergoes a shift from fertile female to fertile male.


This, however, really doesn't match fantasy elves or dwarves, which are portrayed as much closer to human in terms of their sexual dimorphism and romantic behaviors.

2D8HP
2018-06-08, 02:45 PM
...Are you a warrior? You probably are expected to be male (unless dimorphism is such that females are more capable warriors)....


Since later editions D&D Elves all may use swords and bows (and oD&D Elves "can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game. Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells"), it's reasonable to assume that both female, male, neither, and either Elves are expected to be, and receive some upbringing as warriors.

Nifft
2018-06-08, 03:21 PM
Since later editions D&D Elves all may use swords and bows (and oD&D Elves "can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game. Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells"), it's reasonable to assume that both female, male, neither, and either Elves are expected to be, and receive some upbringing as warriors.

oD&D elves were clearly gender-fluid since they could go from being female in one adventure, to being a Fighting-Man in the next.

Segev
2018-06-08, 04:16 PM
Since later editions D&D Elves all may use swords and bows (and oD&D Elves "can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game. Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells"), it's reasonable to assume that both female, male, neither, and either Elves are expected to be, and receive some upbringing as warriors.

You're aware that the premise of this thread is that for elves, biological sex is a choice, right?

Therefore, if there is literally any advantage to one sex over the other insofar as the biology goes for a particular job, the pressure will exist to have those in that job assume that sex.

The advantage postulated for being male, here, is the lack of childbearing. Which is a damper on any soldiering. There are obviously other solutions to that problem, ranging from celibacy to magically perfect contraception to abortion. If there is a biological advantage to being a female soldier (e.g. canon drow, where the females are said to be the larger and stronger sex), such would probably be the norm.

If sex is literally a choice, choosing to be the socially less-accepted one when the accepted one is so because it's statistically better is like refusing to wear your uniform in the army, and instead insisting on wearing a Morticia-dress.

We are discussing a rather alien setup, here; real world egalitarian issues need not even exist. If Meliastriam can be a woman when she's at work soldiering, and a man when he's at home with his paramour, and said paramour is the one who plans to bear any children they might have, why would Meliastriam insist on being a man while soldiering despite the female form being the stronger body, and all his training and requirements insisting soldiers be female?

2D8HP
2018-06-08, 05:00 PM
You're aware that the premise of this thread is that for elves, biological sex is a choice, right?.....


True, but the OP did post "consistent with the image that WotC want's to portray"

...I want to be consistent with the image that WotC wants to portray.... and existing Lore is that some Elves are female, some are male, some are both, the "blessed of Corellon", and some, the rarest of the blessed, may freely choose once per long rest.

Since, unlike 1e AD&D, all Elves have the same stat potential, and since all Elves are proficient with bows and swords, and since most Elves must forever live and die and live again, suffering the consequence of their ancestors' poor judgment", "fixed in the forms they had adopted in defiance of Corellon's will", it still seems reasonable to me that female Elves fight as well.

If (as you suggest) the Elves that may choose their sex foretell a fight, and feel that there's a survival advantage to being one sex or the other, sure they probably switch to have that advantage, but there's no current "crunch" or "fluff" that suggest that there is any.

I do imagine that if an Elf wants to give birth and is in the middle of gestation, they're probably not going to switch.

If all Elves may switch then I inagine that they can adjust their communities birthrate based on perceived need.

wumpus
2018-06-08, 05:24 PM
The insect-queen/hive structure for reproduction really only works with the genders as they are because they're egg-layers. For mammalian-style internal-gestating creatures, the womb-bearing member of a mating pair needs to be either 1:1 or the more prevalent sort. As much as I'm sure some female warlords would enjoy harems of male consorts, for reproductive purposes the male harem lead with multiple wives is the more efficient. One man with 9 wives can have 9 (or more) kids in one year. One woman with 9 husbands might manage to get octuplets; it has happened. But it is ridiculously unlikely; she is far more likely to have 1-3 with heavy weighting towards "1" no matter how many husbands she has.

Dwarf or elf, unless they're egg-layers, you're going to want the "King" and his "Harem" as the reproductive core.

One way to do it would be neutered (males or females, if either) as the "worker" caste, with "promotion" to the court as haremettes causing a biological shift to female. If the King becomes unavailable, one of the members of the court undergoes a shift from fertile female to fertile male.


This, however, really doesn't match fantasy elves or dwarves, which are portrayed as much closer to human in terms of their sexual dimorphism and romantic behaviors.

How if dwarves were marsupial? The queen bears live young, but the drones keep the young in pouches/provide milk. I suppose the weird "3 sets of genes" thing would work with a king + harem, but it doesn't fit the "mystery of dwarven women" nearly as well. I'd go with marsupials (which likely means that your had drinking dwarf has internal (to the pouch) breasts).

Elves (and their chaotic natures) don't fit any really off the wall schemes already known in nature. Perhaps elves start out male physically mature, and then fairly quickly morph into mature female elves? Note: anything that has 1:1 mating schemes and mating during youth does nasty things to population levels. There are two reasons for the male->female swicheroo:
1. the other seems to be open for more abuse (or at least more sick manifestos posted on the internet)
2. presumably the rare stud (presumably completes some legendary feat, perhaps PCs are trying to reach level 20/30 or something before maturity thus giving them the chance to become an "elf stud") allows less rigid births and presumably avoid the issues of a generation happening at near human levels.

- in reality this is probably better for a novel or such than a role playing game. It takes options away from the players, which is almost always bad.

Nifft
2018-06-08, 05:54 PM
Hee. I see I'm not the only one who likes making that joke. Sorry to be serious for a moment, but I feel like the word "joke" is a bit too dismissive. I could probably run a campaign with that as a premise -- that Elves and Dwarves were a single species with extreme sexual dimorphism. I'd need players with just the right mix of maturity & immaturity, though.


Heck, it could be the word "elf." Other races heard them using it to refer to each other so often that they thought it was their race name.

"Did you see Samadrian the other day? Elf's got elfself a paramour; no other reason elf'd be wearing that much makeup." Elfself is a brilliant and terrible innovation.


Sure, if "no genitals" is an option, go for it! I'm assuming this is actually just swapping sexes, not a more generalized shapeshifting that gives "neuter" as an option. Heck, if it's "humanoidish" shapeshifting, go for a technically-neuter form that looks like the burliest and most flexible of athletes. Yeah if that were available, that could even explain the "aloof" thing that Elves have going on -- after all, the combat-optimized neutrelf would fail to respond to everyone's flirting.


Do *not* go accusing a dwarf of being an elf, or anything similar. Honestly hope you're just trying to be funny with this, but it comes off as a bit abrasive & sanctimonious. Trust me, I'm an expert on those.


If you've really got the ability to change, why would you even stop there.
You're a warrior, would you not be even better with even less plumbing (and sensitive external areas). Other than to try and enforce one of our cultures on them.

You could have at least 4 'sexes' each more or less independently depending on the season
Lactating, Womb, Sperm and Large-lungs

Hmm, taking this a bit further, what if Elves don't have genders -- instead, they have seasons.

Winter - no sex - combat-optimized.
Spring - male genitals.
Summer - ???
Autumn - female genitals.

Elves are surprised by criticism of a May/September romance -- "Isn't that the default?"

2D8HP
2018-06-08, 06:12 PM
Well since Elves are traditionally ruled by queens (https://www.swantower.com/essays/philosophy/faerie-ruled-queens/) maybe they do use the ant/bee/Feegle model?

jayem
2018-06-09, 04:00 AM
Hmm, taking this a bit further, what if Elves don't have genders -- instead, they have seasons.

Winter - no sex - combat-optimized.
Spring - male genitals.
Summer - ???
Autumn - female genitals.

Elves are surprised by criticism of a May/September romance -- "Isn't that the default?"

I think there's lots of options, although to some extent coupled with the mechanics:
If they basically are internally basically hermaphrodite then you'd be always paying the plumbing cost of being a boy&of being a girl.
While if you slowly had to pupate yourself, you really wouldn't want to switch too often.
If you magically instantly switched plumbing without affecting the rest of the body (which raises some questions) then you'd probably favor the elves described at the start of the thread, or you decide a prime gender.
if you switch and the whole body changes to boy/girl features (defined by who?) then to the extent you can you may as well (by evolution if not by will) be fully optomised for the current role as you can.

I think whatever courtship would be totally different though.

From a worldbuilding perspective one interesting option would be if Orcs were biologically similar but 'played' things differently. Perhaps Elves form couples where duties are more or less split evenly, while Orcs go for the haram model.

LibraryOgre
2018-06-09, 08:56 AM
I'm a fan of the gendered first person pronoun without gendered third person pronouns idea for Elven language. Signalling the speaker's gender through their self-referential pronoun is a solid idea. For simplicity's sake, a binary option could be I (feminine) and E (masculine) as first person pronouns.


I rather like this... and, possibly, another set of gendered third person pronouns for intimate associates

Just to play with the idea a little bit

Elven first-person pronouns

A = hard masculine (aka self-view has very few feminine traits)
E = soft masculine (aka primarily masculine, but trending balanced)
I = balanced gender expression
O = Soft feminine (aka primarily feminine, but trending balanced)
U = Hard feminine (aka self-view has very few masculine traits)
Y = agender
W = gender transitioning (i.e. as they are making the physical change of sexes, they enter into a culturally indeterminate gender state, as different sexual states can alter self-perception of gender)

Elven second and third-person pronouns are nominally genderless, with the option to add a gendered suffix for intimate acquaintances (not just lovers, but also close family and friends); the gendered suffix is the same as the first-person pronoun. Confusingly, they're written the same, que, with the second person being pronounced KWAY and the third person being pronounced KAY. "Que" is always polite, though it can be a bit cutting if a formerly-used intimate suffix is dropped. Elven society considers using the wrong gendered suffix to be impolite, but not insulting to the person misgendered... rather, it is a sign that the speaker is ignorant and hasty; after all, if they used the wrong one, they don't actually know the person well enough to use the intimate form, nor to wait long enough to let the person identify themselves.

Second and third person gendered pronouns
KWAY'ah KAY'ah
KWAY'ee KAY'ee
KWAY'eh KAY'eh
KWAY'oh KAY'oh
KWAY'oo KAY'oo
KWAY'yuh KAY'yuh
KWAY'wuh KAY'wuh

The Jack
2018-06-09, 10:59 AM
Elven's supposed to be a pretty popular second language for humans.
Speaking as someone who's learned a handful and who finds gendering one of the many pain-in-the-ass ways to needlessly over-complicate, I imagine the difficulty spike would make it pretty unpopular.

wumpus
2018-06-09, 01:41 PM
Well since Elves are traditionally ruled by queens (https://www.swantower.com/essays/philosophy/faerie-ruled-queens/) maybe they do use the ant/bee/Feegle model?

I used dwarves for an ant/bee species because I'd expect such to create extremely lawful (group minded) societies.

For near human equalitarian matriarchies, it would be hard to ignore the bonobos as an example. I'd be careful in introducing it into an actual game as that could really disrupt play and lead to problems (with orcs having more chimp-like mating, elves as bonobos seems much more natural. Just assume cross-fertilizing sex is as unlikely to produce offspring as intra-species sex or elves would cover the prime material plane). I'd even assume that gender fluid bonobo society (regardless if some or all were genderfluid) would be all but indistinguishable from current bonbo society, while genderfluid chimp society would change drastically.

You could always try "Left Hand of Darkness" style sexuality on your elves (gender only happens during heat. And is more or less randomly selected). Might be strongly hinted by the DM that certain players play characters who would only be "in heat" when the plot allows it (ok, you can finally have pon farr now.)

Pleh
2018-06-10, 08:10 AM
Elven's supposed to be a pretty popular second language for humans.
Speaking as someone who's learned a handful and who finds gendering one of the many pain-in-the-ass ways to needlessly over-complicate, I imagine the difficulty spike would make it pretty unpopular.

Languages don't become popular second languages because they are easy to learn. English is one of the hardest languages to pick up second, yet it's one of the most common second languages.

Ultimately, what makes a language common to learn is how much and how often using it ends up being beneficial, regardless how much effort it requires.

Elven being a common second language just means elven culture has a lot of influence on human culture.

Jay R
2018-06-10, 08:19 AM
However, I find that there is a delicate balance between portraying sexuality, versus making it a sole defining characteristic. It's too easy to put a trans character into a show and then they are simply "the trans one" rather than being a well defined character of their own.

Right. So avoid the sex-focused aspects.


Anyway scaling that to their whole society, I'm afraid that everyone will think that all elves are effeminate & hedonistic, rather than the timeless wardens who have shaped history.

What do y'all think I should do?

Go with it. Humans have always misunderstood elves, and the elves are some combination of amused and insulted, and look down on humans for not being able to understand their culture. There's the center of elf-human diplomacy.

The Jack
2018-06-10, 09:46 AM
Languages don't become popular second languages because they are easy to learn. English is one of the hardest languages to pick up second, yet it's one of the most common second languages.

Ultimately, what makes a language common to learn is how much and how often using it ends up being beneficial, regardless how much effort it requires.

Elven being a common second language just means elven culture has a lot of influence on human culture.

While it's true that languages close to your own are easier; English isn't one of the hardest languages to learn. It's got a lot of special cases and inconsistencies, but every language has that. The only real problem is that the spelling doesn't match up with what you're saying. Speech only, it's pretty rules light in comparison to every other language i've learned/attempted to learn



Elves being gender fluid would mean a lesser influence on human culture. They were too-different already. You combine that with more than three genders for a language, whatever other fancy rules elven has, and boom: the humans are second-speaking dwarven, gnome or goblin.

Unless you're fond of the postmodern kitchen sink, I can't but think that Elves become a fringe race, more than now.

Segev
2018-06-11, 03:55 PM
Sorry to be serious for a moment, but I feel like the word "joke" is a bit too dismissive. I could probably run a campaign with that as a premise -- that Elves and Dwarves were a single species with extreme sexual dimorphism. I'd need players with just the right mix of maturity & immaturity, though.Eh, if I see it done seriously, I will not treat that serious depiction as a joke. But until then, it pretty much is a joke. Jokes can inspire serious ideas; they're still jokes until they're taken that seriously.


Elfself is a brilliant and terrible innovation.Thank you, thank you. *bows*


Yeah if that were available, that could even explain the "aloof" thing that Elves have going on -- after all, the combat-optimized neutrelf would fail to respond to everyone's flirting.And now I'm hearing this as an alignment.

"Lawful Neutrelf"
"Neutrelf Good"
"Chaotic Neutrelf"
"Neutrelf Evil"
And, of course, the "True Neutrelf."


Hmm, taking this a bit further, what if Elves don't have genders -- instead, they have seasons.

Winter - no sex - combat-optimized.
Spring - male genitals.
Summer - ???
Autumn - female genitals.

Elves are surprised by criticism of a May/September romance -- "Isn't that the default?"May even have their terms for sexes be synonymous with the terms for "Spring" and "Autumn." And, if Summer is the only time of year when there are some Springs and some Autumns, "Summer Romance" would be about all they have, at least with any of the sexual overtones that "romance" usually engenders.

Though it'd be weird to have "war optimized" as the Winter default.

Come to think of it, they'd be more optimal with Summer and Winter reversed. There's a reason a lot of babies are born in late summer/early fall, traditionally, in human history. Winter time was when night came early and the days were too cold to get serious work done, and people sought out each other to share body heat. This leads to some obvious choices for evening entertainment amongst couples.

So "Springs" are female, "Autumns" are male, and Summer is the work/war sex. Elves in very serious romances/courtship phases might persist in Spring or Autumn form (as their minds and body chemistries are focused on wooing/pleasing their paramour), either entering early or shifting late. Elven romance tales might make yaoi fangirls really happy as the two Autumns meet as summer draws to a close, and move rapidly into friendship and eventually courtship. They settle into roles of "pursued" and "pursuer" and the sign that the "pursued" is actually interested in it is that she shifts to Spring very early in the Winter season. That may even be the point where the tropes about denial and "everyone can see it" start being most commonly played in elven romance-stories.

The sign that the pursuer has given up, or feels his suit hopeless, is when he finally shifts from Autumn to Spring. There would be a great deal of literary criticism surrounding the overuse of this trope, since it's usually only VERY young elves who can hang on to Autumn-sex (i.e. male) even as Spring starts to rear its head, and perhaps there are a fair number of relationships amongst elven youths that suffer for it when the pursuer panicks, realizing that Winter is not quite 2/3 of the way over, and he's shifting to Spring already. Does this mean his Springfriend doesn't love him? Does this mean, to the Spring-girl, that her pursuer has lost interest and she's just protesting and lying about still loving her?

"No," counsel older, wiser elves, "This is normal. Very few Autumnfriends stay Autumn as long as the stories portray."

Meanwhile, staying Spring even as Summer rolls around is often a sign of pregnancy. Many a hopeful Springbride and Autumngroom are very happy to see her being late in shifting. It also means elves share the human association of the term, "I'm late," as a euphemism for potentially being pregnant...albeit with quite different etymological roots.

Summer might seem, to outsiders, to be a hyper-masculine sex: Stronger, more obviously athletic, naturally competitive (especially compared to anything but two Autumns competing over the same Spring), and everything except particularly interested in the fairer sex. They shift a bit away from "Adonis-like" to "Pretty-boy" as they head into Autumn, and mates of pregnant Springs might well shift early into Autumn as their bodies eagerly anticipate that dynamic.

Springs would give birth in late summer/early Autumn, typically. And then, she's likely to shift to Autumn rapidly as her body rebounds, while her Autumnfriend is likely to shift to Spring very early in Winter in order to help care for the newborn.

For these reasons, it's unlikely that elves will have babies less than a year and a half apart, and the restabilization of their cycles might take longer still.

Nifft
2018-06-11, 04:13 PM
May even have their terms for sexes be synonymous with the terms for "Spring" and "Autumn." And, if Summer is the only time of year when there are some Springs and some Autumns, "Summer Romance" would be about all they have, at least with any of the sexual overtones that "romance" usually engenders.

Though it'd be weird to have "war optimized" as the Winter default.

Come to think of it, they'd be more optimal with Summer and Winter reversed. There's a reason a lot of babies are born in late summer/early fall, traditionally, in human history. Winter time was when night came early and the days were too cold to get serious work done, and people sought out each other to share body heat. This leads to some obvious choices for evening entertainment amongst couples.

So "Springs" are female, "Autumns" are male, and Summer is the work/war sex. Elves in very serious romances/courtship phases might persist in Spring or Autumn form (as their minds and body chemistries are focused on wooing/pleasing their paramour), either entering early or shifting late. Elven romance tales might make yaoi fangirls really happy as the two Autumns meet as summer draws to a close, and move rapidly into friendship and eventually courtship. They settle into roles of "pursued" and "pursuer" and the sign that the "pursued" is actually interested in it is that she shifts to Spring very early in the Winter season. That may even be the point where the tropes about denial and "everyone can see it" start being most commonly played in elven romance-stories.

The sign that the pursuer has given up, or feels his suit hopeless, is when he finally shifts from Autumn to Spring. There would be a great deal of literary criticism surrounding the overuse of this trope, since it's usually only VERY young elves who can hang on to Autumn-sex (i.e. male) even as Spring starts to rear its head, and perhaps there are a fair number of relationships amongst elven youths that suffer for it when the pursuer panicks, realizing that Winter is not quite 2/3 of the way over, and he's shifting to Spring already. Does this mean his Springfriend doesn't love him? Does this mean, to the Spring-girl, that her pursuer has lost interest and she's just protesting and lying about still loving her?

"No," counsel older, wiser elves, "This is normal. Very few Autumnfriends stay Autumn as long as the stories portray."

Meanwhile, staying Spring even as Summer rolls around is often a sign of pregnancy. Many a hopeful Springbride and Autumngroom are very happy to see her being late in shifting. It also means elves share the human association of the term, "I'm late," as a euphemism for potentially being pregnant...albeit with quite different etymological roots.

Summer might seem, to outsiders, to be a hyper-masculine sex: Stronger, more obviously athletic, naturally competitive (especially compared to anything but two Autumns competing over the same Spring), and everything except particularly interested in the fairer sex. They shift a bit away from "Adonis-like" to "Pretty-boy" as they head into Autumn, and mates of pregnant Springs might well shift early into Autumn as their bodies eagerly anticipate that dynamic.

Springs would give birth in late summer/early Autumn, typically. And then, she's likely to shift to Autumn rapidly as her body rebounds, while her Autumnfriend is likely to shift to Spring very early in Winter in order to help care for the newborn.

For these reasons, it's unlikely that elves will have babies less than a year and a half apart, and the restabilization of their cycles might take longer still.

Hmm. Some of this is good stuff.

Spring = gentle warmth & fertility -> okay, I can see that as feminine.

Autumn = storms & hunting -> okay, I can see that as masculine.

Summer might be a sexless magical aspect, when light is at its peak and there's lots of light to stay up late & read tomes. Following spring, the summer is an aspect of nurturing growth -- so this is also the favored aspect of the great educators.

Winter remains the sexless warrior aspect. Following the wild hunts of autumn, these are the vicious warriors who defend their homesteads through the season of darkness and hunger.


So this gives us a cycle:

Spring (female, plants) -> Summer (educator, mage) -> Autumn (male, hunter) -> Winter (warrior)

Each year when your current aspect changes, roll a die of some type. On a natural 1, you change aspect to the next season. Otherwise, you remain your current aspect (and gender). Maybe pregnant spring elves can transition to Summer, but not to Autumn? Or they just don't transition.

Thus, you get elf-elf relationships which might span decades without any fruitful union, since the two lovers just randomly never seem to align on complementary genders.

jayem
2018-06-11, 05:53 PM
So "Springs" are female, "Autumns" are male, and Summer is the work/war sex...
I think that's pretty close to covered, so after that...



Eh, if I see it [Dwarf-Elf] done seriously, I will not treat that serious depiction as a joke. But until then, it pretty much is a joke. Jokes can inspire serious ideas; they're still jokes until they're taken that seriously.

So we'd need some mechanism for Elf/Dwarf meeting and mating. Some explanation of how the male babies go underground and the female babies go upwood.


On the whole the caves look the safest space to rear children. At that point we only have to explain adult children leaving.

So first option is to have the elves stay in the cave rearing the child. Then leave with the very young girls, while the dwarves look after the young boys. This doesn't seem satisfying, as firstly we need to explain what the dwarves do. Then you have a concentrated group of males which at best becomes 'capture of the Sabine womanish'

So next option is to flip things so that elves are males, dwarves are female. The manly! hunter gatherer elves go off to hunt for food, etc... while the feminine! dwarves do homely stuff. The children leave as adults. This on the whole maps fairly nicely into stereotype human/rabbit society, which has some pluses but is a bit boring (though at least you do have the one subversion in the appearances). But does more or less explain everything and is fairly flexible (you could either have each elf bring enough for their one dwarf-perhaps in a matchmaking season, or else the conception rate balances things out so the dwarves have very serial monogomy and the elves alternate mass polygamy with long periods of abstinence, etc..).

The next option is to have some kind of seahorse Dwarves. This requires somehow Elves to stay with them till they give birth, but we can minimize pregnancy length (and it does mean that the elves can be andronygous, they don't need breasts or wide hips). This in some ways gets some of the strengths of the second model while having the weaknesses of the first.

Bringing the babies up in the wood. This leaves the elves seeming to have the very short end of the stick. Are the dwarves literally just parasites? Also on the whole it seems much easier to imagine kicking newly-adults out the nest to succeed on their own and find a mate, than kicking them into it and hoping a mate (who they were presumably crossing paths with) finds them. So the underworld would have to make dwarves of dwarflets and ideally give them something that is really attractive to elves (beyond the dna) but that's not enough for them to stay for.

Nifft
2018-06-11, 06:07 PM
So we'd need some mechanism for Elf/Dwarf meeting and mating. Some explanation of how the male babies go underground and the female babies go upwood. Perhaps make an intermediate stage, like all Elves & Dwarves start life as asexual Gnomes. IIRC the genders for children in German support this ("das Madchen").

For the first century or so, a Gnome is basically stuck in a gnome burrow, which is both underground and in the woods, trying to decide which is preferable.

Maybe they think of it as sleep-away camp, or boarding school.



So first option is to have the elves stay in the cave rearing the child. Then leave leaf with the very young girls, while the dwarves look after the young boys. This doesn't seem satisfying, as firstly we need to explain what the dwarves do. Then you have a concentrated group of males which at best becomes 'capture of the Sabine womanish' Maybe those lonely Dwarf men seek comfort with human women, and the resulting issue are Orcs.



The next option is to have some kind of seahorse Dwarves. This requires somehow Elves to stay with them till they give birth, but we can minimize pregnancy length (and it does mean that the elves can be andronygous, they don't need breasts or wide hips). This in some ways gets some of the strengths of the second model while having the weaknesses of the first. A Dwarf might have an artificial exterior womb known as a "magic beard".

Clearly this is why they grow their beards so long -- it's an indication of fertility.



Bringing the babies up in the wood. This leaves the elves seeming to have the very short end of the stick. Are the dwarves literally just parasites? Also on the whole it seems much easier to imagine kicking newly-adults out the nest to succeed on their own and find a mate, than kicking them into it and hoping a mate (who they were presumably crossing paths with) finds them. So the underworld would have to make dwarves of dwarflets and ideally give them something that is really attractive to elves (beyond the dna) but that's not enough for them to stay for. Primates seem to do okay with raising kids in trees. Perhaps make Elf kids a bit more monkey-like, with a longer animal-to-person growth period, and the Elf lifestyle is probably viable -- and that also justifies their longer life-span / age-of-maturity thing, since it might take them 50 years to go from tree-dwelling monkey-pet into a person who uses silverware and toilets.

Or give them extra magic -- "Of course our child can cast feather fall, she's almost a year old."

In terms of Dwarf attractiveness, this is clearly why the Dwarves make mithral gear, which is better suited to being worn by Elves.

137beth
2018-06-29, 10:35 AM
I'm a fan of the gendered first person pronoun without gendered third person pronouns idea for Elven language. Signalling the speaker's gender through their self-referential pronoun is a solid idea. For simplicity's sake, a binary option could be I (feminine) and E (masculine) as first person pronouns.


Huh, I really like that idea. It avoids the issue of needing to tell someone your pronouns like with English, because you just use the appropriate 1st person pronouns yourself. I might try to use that in a game in the future.

Maelynn
2018-07-01, 05:24 AM
If the players don't know than you have more options with an NPC that can disguise themselves i.e. "That wasn't me, that was my sibling".

This reminds me of an episode of Grimm where a creature (http://grimm.wikia.com/wiki/Huntha_Lami_Muuaji)'s body hosts both a male and a female. They communicate internally and can physically manifest themselves in turns. In the episode, the creature uses this ability to con people and steal their stuff.

Might be fun to have a blessed Elf Rogue who does a similar thing... usually male, but every once in a while he changes to a female for a day to work her magic on local men and swindle them out of their valuables.