How are summoners supposed to handle spell slots?

[sorcererlover]

From my understanding only the highest level summons available to you are barely viable for combat, which means you're only gonna have 2-4 relevant summon spells, which seems like hell. It seems you'll never stop having to nova encounters because all your lower level spells are worthless to you as a summoner unless you dip into the BFC role.

I haven't played a summoner before, and I want to play a character who only knows summon spells. Is it possible or will I just be dead weight?

[Falontani]

it is very much possible; what kind of summoner do you want to be? Elemental, nature's ally, or monster? (if you want an undead summoner let me know, I can do that too, although end game won't be as awesome)

[sorcererlover]

it is very much possible; what kind of summoner do you want to be? Elemental, nature's ally, or monster? (if you want an undead summoner let me know, I can do that too, although end game won't be as awesome)

I haven't decided. I might also do Shadowcraft Mage who just uses his ability to make shadow creatures and nothing else. I bought Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition and I'm loving the Summoning Gate there so i want to do it in d&d. She summons a different summon for range attacks, AoE range attacks, for melee attacks, for riding a flying thing, and such and I want to do something similar except more dazzling.

My main concern is that only your highest level spell slots are usable in combat so you will always be short of resources. Blasters can pimp out their low level nukes. All BFC spells of all levels are always useful.

[ZamielVanWeber]

PF or 3.5? In 3.5 there are a ton of feats that can boost summons. Heck, even a simple conjurer wizard 20 with the first 2 VCC options from Unearthed Arcana can end up pretty decent all around with difficult to dispel summons that enjoy a healthy +8 to Str and Con. Fancier builds do exist that grant more power though.

[Rockphed]

While a lower level spell slot won't give you a summon that can go toe-to-toe with a level appropriate opponent, you can use a 3rd level summon to get 1d4+1 summons to give your allies flanking. Sure, they all die in a round, but that is 1d4+1 attacks that target summons instead of you, and probably 1d4+1 enemies who got the hurt on because they were flanked when your rogue ally walked up to them so sneak attack worked. You can summon creatures to search for traps. You can summon creatures that can heal.

On the other hand, if all you do is summon, you are probably going to be only slightly more interesting than a fighter and significantly less interesting than an evocation wizard.

[Venger]

From my understanding only the highest level summons available to you are barely viable for combat, which means you're only gonna have 2-4 relevant summon spells, which seems like hell. It seems you'll never stop having to nova encounters because all your lower level spells are worthless to you as a summoner unless you dip into the BFC role.

I haven't played a summoner before, and I want to play a character who only knows summon spells. Is it possible or will I just be dead weight?
who the heck told you that?

malconvoker handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker)

summon list (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916201155/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.0)

I'm not sure why you'd only want summon spells, or how you'd do that, but even if you want to for whatever reason, you'll do fine.

Metatextually, just make sure you know all your monsters' powers so your turns don't take 20 minutes, and address with your gm if they all act on separate initiatives or just end up going on your turn. this is a fairly common houserule to expedite play.

[sorcererlover]

PF or 3.5? In 3.5 there are a ton of feats that can boost summons. Heck, even a simple conjurer wizard 20 with the first 2 VCC options from Unearthed Arcana can end up pretty decent all around with difficult to dispel summons that enjoy a healthy +8 to Str and Con. Fancier builds do exist that grant more power though.

My question is, lets say you are a 11th level wizard who prepared only Summon Monster I-VI. How many of these spells can be used to kill things in combat and how many of these spells are useless or not usable in combat?

[Venger]

On the other hand, if all you do is summon, you are probably going to be only slightly more interesting than a fighter and significantly less interesting than an evocation wizard.

Huh?

The reasons summons are useful isn't because they're more warm bodies to deal and inflict meager amounts of hit point damage. That's what fighters are for. They have a variety of weird slas and other special powers that you either can't do on your own, or that it's cheaper to expend a summon slot than casting the spell yourself, like a bone devil's walls of ice, or a unicorn's healing powers.

[sorcererlover]

who the heck told you that?

malconvoker handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker)

summon list (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916201155/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.0)

I'm not sure why you'd only want summon spells, or how you'd do that, but even if you want to for whatever reason, you'll do fine.

Metatextually, just make sure you know all your monsters' powers so your turns don't take 20 minutes, and address with your gm if they all act on separate initiatives or just end up going on your turn. this is a fairly common houserule to expedite play.

Those are just numbers. I know that you can seriously pimp out your summons, but I'm asking, how many lower level pimped out summon spells are usable in combat? Usable as in kill things instead of just being a flank bonus or entangling thing like spiders are.

[Venger]

Those are just numbers. I know that you can seriously pimp out your summons, but I'm asking, how many lower level pimped out summon spells are usable in combat? Usable as in kill things instead of just being a flank bonus or entangling thing like spiders are.

What are you talking about? Did you read either of those? The use is their slas and special powers. Being a summoner is like having a whole bunch of other casters under you whose slots never run out and have access to unlisted powers.


On the other hand, if all you do is summon, you are probably going to be only slightly more interesting than a fighter and significantly less interesting than an evocation wizard.

Huh?

The reasons summons are useful isn't because they're more warm bodies to deal and inflict meager amounts of hit point damage. That's what fighters are for. They have a variety of weird slas and other special powers that you either can't do on your own, or that it's cheaper to expend a summon slot than casting the spell yourself, like a bone devil's walls of ice, or a unicorn's healing powers.


My question is, lets say you are a 11th level wizard who prepared only Summon Monster I-VI. How many of these spells can be used to kill things in combat and how many of these spells are useless or not usable in combat?

You need to think outside the schema of inflicting hit point damage in combat if you're going to be a good summoner.

At level 11, will summoning a celestial dead monkey be able to kill an urgulstasa all by itself? Of course not, but it can block los, flank, soak enemy aoos, set off traps, throw tanglefoot bags or thunderstones, etc. It's an extra set of actions, so it's as useful as you make it.

All summoning spells are usable in combat

[Falontani]

undead summoner your going to want to quickly hop into Master of Shrouds, summon some incorporeals at lower than normal level, command one of the spawn that they create, and have it create an army for you.

Elemental summoner has many different options, however your best one will rely on a singular feat that allows you to summon air elementals that can use cone of cold at their HD CL. Although a few of them can get some pretty fun pet elementals

Nature's ally summoner is the most powerful in early levels, and is still one of the most powerful at end game, however without a way to get planar binding or create scaling minions you wont be as awesome as the monster summoner

Summon Monster's summoner is weak at the start, however becomes the most powerful. I highly suggest using the unearthed arcana alternate summoning rules where you can choose your own summons and make them on a theme

Monster and Elemental has the most prestige class support

Nature's ally has the most feat support

Undead is considered the weakest at end game unless you have a nice DM


If you want to be able to do higher hit point damage with lower level summons look at the Demonologist. They can up their Summon Monster level by 4, meaning Summon Monster 1 is effectively Summon Monster 5. However its a secondary spellcasting class meaning it doesn't progress your normal summons (although it does pump the ones you got from outside Demonologist).

[sorcererlover]

At level 11, will summoning a celestial dead monkey be able to kill an urgulstasa all by itself? Of course not, but it can block los, flank, soak enemy aoos, set off traps, throw tanglefoot bags or thunderstones, etc. It's an extra set of actions, so it's as useful as you make it.

All summoning spells are usable in combat

Not by itself, but I want to contribute by hitpoint damage in addition to all the SLAs and other support spells. I just don't want to be a pure BFC wizard that BFCs through summons instead of spells.

Mainly hitpoint damage though.

[Venger]

undead summoner your going to want to quickly hop into Master of Shrouds, summon some incorporeals at lower than normal level, command one of the spawn that they create, and have it create an army for you.

Elemental summoner has many different options, however your best one will rely on a singular feat that allows you to summon air elementals that can use cone of cold at their HD CL. Although a few of them can get some pretty fun pet elementals

Nature's ally summoner is the most powerful in early levels, and is still one of the most powerful at end game, however without a way to get planar binding or create scaling minions you wont be as awesome as the monster summoner

Summon Monster's summoner is weak at the start, however becomes the most powerful. I highly suggest using the unearthed arcana alternate summoning rules where you can choose your own summons and make them on a theme

Monster and Elemental has the most prestige class support

Nature's ally has the most feat support

Undead is considered the weakest at end game unless you have a nice DM


If you want to be able to do higher hit point damage with lower level summons look at the Demonologist. They can up their Summon Monster level by 4, meaning Summon Monster 1 is effectively Summon Monster 5. However its a secondary spellcasting class meaning it doesn't progress your normal summons (although it does pump the ones you got from outside Demonologist).
Solid assessment. Give your gm a heads up before you perform a wraithocalypse so he doesn't have to tear up his notes, or can say "please don't" or "everyone in the whole world has permanencied burial blessing on them the whole time"

while undead is the weakest endgame, depending on what level span sorcererlover's campaign is expected to cover, it might not matter.

what level are you starting at? what level are you expecting to go to?


Not by itself, but I want to contribute by hitpoint damage in addition to all the SLAs and other support spells. I just don't want to be a pure BFC wizard that BFCs through summons instead of spells.

Mainly hitpoint damage though.

That's not what a summoner does, though. That's not what they're for. If you try to use a hammer like a whipsaw, of course you're going to be behind your performance objective. If you want to deal hit point damage, you may well be better off playing a blaster. Summons don't deal a lot of hp damage for their level because they are selected with the understanding you'll use them for energy drain, charm monster, etc, not beating people with a stick. Maybe you might have more fun playing a brute.

[sorcererlover]

That's not what a summoner does, though. That's not what they're for. If you try to use a hammer like a whipsaw, of course you're going to be behind your performance objective. If you want to deal hit point damage, you may well be better off playing a blaster. Summons don't deal a lot of hp damage for their level because they are selected with the understanding you'll use them for energy drain, charm monster, etc, not beating people with a stick. Maybe you might have more fun playing a brute.

I want to kill things with monsters not with a sword or a fireball.

So I guess I have my answer then...

[Falontani]

it is not impossible to kill things with HP damage with summons. It is just harder unless you have a permissive DM.

[Faily]

Not sure if you're Pathfinder or 3.5, but in Pathfinder you have the Summoner class that is all about the summoned beastie doing the fighting for you. If you're playing 3.5, can always ask the GM to import the Summoner class?

[sorcererlover]

Not sure if you're Pathfinder or 3.5, but in Pathfinder you have the Summoner class that is all about the summoned beastie doing the fighting for you. If you're playing 3.5, can always ask the GM to import the Summoner class?

My DM plays 3.5 and he hates pathfinder calling it a cheap knockoff or parasites abusing the open gaming license so yeah... no ports. Harsh I know but he's a good DM otherwise.

[Venger]

I want to kill things with monsters not with a sword or a fireball.

So I guess I have my answer then...

Then roll enchanter and enslave stuff that's at or above your cr.

[sorcererlover]

Then roll enchanter and enslave stuff that's at or above your cr.

I want to kill things with monsters without preparation or a chance that they will kill me because of a dispel magic or a break enchantment or a magic circle against evil...

I'll just crunch some numbers and see how my summons would do against cr appropriate monsters and if it's dissatisfactory I'll just call it quits.

Thanks everyone.

[Venger]

I want to kill things with monsters without preparation or a chance that they will kill me because of a dispel magic or a break enchantment or a magic circle against evil...

I'll just crunch some numbers and see how my summons would do against cr appropriate monsters and if it's dissatisfactory I'll just call it quits.

Thanks everyone.

Because summons aren't vulnerable to dispel magic or magic circle, apparently.

Your summons will be fighting enemies in conjunction with the entire party. They aren't doing everything alone. If you operate solely on that assumption, you will not get accurate results.

[sorcererlover]

Because summons aren't vulnerable to dispel magic or magic circle, apparently.

Your summons will be fighting enemies in conjunction with the entire party. They aren't doing everything alone. If you operate solely on that assumption, you will not get accurate results.

I didn't say alone. I specifically said not alone. I said they should at least carry my weight as a main damage dealing party member.

And there's a difference between an expendable monster I can conjure up anytime getting dispelled and a creature that I have to search, hunt, and beat his will save for that could possibly kill me when he breaks free or is incredibly annoying to replace if it dies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Follow me here;

Human Conjurer 5/ demonologist 6/ nar demonbinder 7/ X 2

Grab rapid summoning with conjurer, maybe even focused specialist conjurer if you like. Make sure you leave the 6 levels of demonologist in tact but you can layer a PrC over nar-demonbinder if you like (and can find the feats.) Malconvoker is ideal if you can squeeze a one-step alignment shift to CN in after taking NDB 1 but before NDB 2.

Net result is that you're only slightly behind a sorcerer on spellcasting but all your summons count as the spell 3 levels higher. You're dropping SM9 by 14 and at 18 you get to drop it 6 times in a day. A hezrou or bebilith is perfectly suitable to do the beat-stick thing at 14 with a caster at its back.

[Lapak]

If you want high hit point damage, and only Summons spells, and you don't want to go down the road of Summons-boosting feats (greenbound, etc.) or class features (see upthread), you've got a tough road.

Happily, you can stay on theme by taking only Summons and buff spells that can improve your Summons. A creature one or two spell levels below your max can become a lot more effective with a few well-chosen buffs dropped on it. Take a few single-targets, maybe a couple that improve the party while you are at it, and you can have a big hit-point impact without doing any direct spell damage.

[sorcererlover]

If you want high hit point damage, and only Summons spells, and you don't want to go down the road of Summons-boosting feats (greenbound, etc.) or class features (see upthread), you've got a tough road.

Happily, you can stay on theme by taking only Summons and buff spells that can improve your Summons. A creature one or two spell levels below your max can become a lot more effective with a few well-chosen buffs dropped on it. Take a few single-targets, maybe a couple that improve the party while you are at it, and you can have a big hit-point impact without doing any direct spell damage.

I do want summon boosting feats, I just don't know that even with summon boosting feats spell levels 1-2 lower than my highest can deal damage.


Follow me here;

Human Conjurer 5/ demonologist 6/ nar demonbinder 7/ X 2

Grab rapid summoning with conjurer, maybe even focused specialist conjurer if you like. Make sure you leave the 6 levels of demonologist in tact but you can layer a PrC over nar-demonbinder if you like (and can find the feats.) Malconvoker is ideal if you can squeeze a one-step alignment shift to CN in after taking NDB 1 but before NDB 2.

Net result is that you're only slightly behind a sorcerer on spellcasting but all your summons count as the spell 3 levels higher. You're dropping SM9 by 14 and at 18 you get to drop it 6 times in a day. A hezrou or bebilith is perfectly suitable to do the beat-stick thing at 14 with a caster at its back.

I am AFB but once I am not i will look up what you suggested.

[Venger]

I do want summon boosting feats, I just don't know that even with summon boosting feats spell levels 1-2 lower than my highest can deal damage.

I am AFB but once I am not i will look up what you suggested.

demonologist is in bovd, nar demonbinder is in ue, malconvoker is in cs

[Kelb_Panthera]

demonologist is in bovd, nar demonbinder is in ue, malconvoker is in cs

This is accurate. That's Book of Vile Darkness, Unapproachable East, and Complete Scoundrel to be clear.

I should also note, as I failed to do so above, that the level boost to SM only applies if the summoned creatures are chaotic evil. So mostly demons.

[Falontani]

This is accurate. That's Book of Vile Darkness, Unapproachable East, and Complete Scoundrel to be clear.

I should also note, as I failed to do so above, that the level boost to SM only applies if the summoned creatures are chaotic evil. So mostly demons.

If your DM allows the alternate summoning rules from Unearthed Arcana (again I strongly urge this option) you can create your own lists and just have your Summon lists based on CR. You could then apply templates to creatures to make them CE

[Anthrowhale]

An archivist can potentially learn and cast Summon Giants at level 7. Applying some optimization, you get a Greenbound Augment Summoning Fiendish Fire Giant at level 7 which should be adequate for several levels.

[Venger]

An archivist can potentially learn and cast Summon Giants at level 7. Applying some optimization, you get a Greenbound Augment Summoning Fiendish Fire Giant at level 7 which should be adequate for several levels.

nah, take it from disciple of thrym and cast it as a 4 instead

[Vizzerdrix]

Have you considdered shaper psion?

What about debuffing mixed with summons instead of bfc?

Is dragon mag open for use?

Have you thought about going golem? You know what they say, "once you go golem, you'll.... err... clean em by boilin em?" Anyways a set of tricked out constructs to support yer summons may be just the thing you need.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considdered shaper psion?

What about debuffing mixed with summons instead of bfc?

Is dragon mag open for use?

Have you thought about going golem? You know what they say, "once you go golem, you'll.... err... clean em by boilin em?" Anyways a set of tricked out constructs to support yer summons may be just the thing you need.

Oh wow, yeah. Duh. Maxed out astral constructs are the only "summon" that comes close to being a level appropriate bruiser by default. They're -really- straight-forward in a fight but they hit like a truck. Here's a PrC just for making them more awesome http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh wow, yeah. Duh. Maxed out astral constructs are the only "summon" that comes close to being a level appropriate bruiser by default. They're -really- straight-forward in a fight but they hit like a truck. Here's a PrC just for making them more awesome http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b

Yay I was helpful! :smallbiggrin:

[animewatcha]

Let's try to solve this another way.
Is there a way to summon an elemental Weird from Monster Manuel 2?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Let's try to solve this another way.
Is there a way to summon an elemental Weird from Monster Manuel 2?

I would think not. Creatures must be conjured onto a surface capable of supporting them but the only such surface suitable to elemental weirds is the pure element of their pools. I don't have MM2 in front of me but that's how I've always ruled it.

[Bullet06320]

OPTIONS, OPTIONS & MORE OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A conjuration specialist and its various builds is one of the more powerful builds in the game, there is nothing you cant do with the proper summons or planar binding

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518804-3-5-Summoned-Creature-SLA-Lists
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?175570-Practical-Demonkeeping-A-Summoner-s-Guide-to-the-Lower-Planes/page1
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook&p=22092940#post22092940
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5

some of these may already have been posted by others

its all about utility, what do I need right now, with summon monster spells, you can pick and choose what you need when you want it, you need flankers for your party, use lower level summons, you need a beat stick, summon up a hydra, trap removal, that's what the summon elemental reserve feat is for or celestial monkeys, u need spell casting or specifc spells, theres a huge list of SLAs and casting summons available, and it gets even better once the planar ally spells come on line, bind effreets for free wishes if want that cheese, planatars for cleric casting, the possible list of things goes on and on

you don't like whats on the base lists of critters available, there are rules for switching and adding critters to the list

my usual route is focused conjuration specialist with rapid summong ACF, banning necromancy and evocation, then either illuision(but you can get back most of evocation back with shadow evocation) or enchanment(but many of these spells are handy with planar binding) you cant ban diviniation, DONT ban abjuration(you need that for magic circle for planar binding) and transmutation has too many handy buff spells
after that go into master specialist for a few levels, you pick a few handy boosts there, then malconvoker, the castor level loss is one of the few acceptable times you can lose castor levels and not worry about it, a couple levels later it really pays off
after malconvoker, thaumaturge or archmage are both viable options

summoners can be broken with they do, just keep index cards or notes with the stats everything you summon with all boosts set up ahead of time, so your not book diving too much during game play

[Aharon]

My question is, lets say you are a 11th level wizard who prepared only Summon Monster I-VI. How many of these spells can be used to kill things in combat and how many of these spells are useless or not usable in combat?

Using Summon Monster I-VI, you potentially have access to

Dominate Monster, Insanity, Ethereal Jaunt, Mirror Jump, mislead, Plane Shift, wall of stone, false vision, Crushing Despair, wrack, dimension door, Good Hope, Stinking Cloud, Dipsel Magic, vampiric touch, Dispel Magic, major image, Continual Flame, Haboob, Slow, Animate Dead, Cure Serious Wounds, Bestow Curse, Create Food and Water, Alter Self, Spider Climb, Mirror Image, Charm Person, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Scare, See Invisibility, Invisibility, hold person, suggestion, Earthbind, Aid, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Soften Earth and Stone, Wind Wall, cure moderate wounds, Desecrate, Death knell, Blur, fog cloud, Color Spray, Feather Fall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, Disguise Self, Faerie Fire, Magic Missile, Sleep, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, detect good, command, detect poison, bless, Chill Metal, Detect Chaos, burning hands, expeditious retreat, jump, blessed sight, cause fear, obscuring mist, vision of heaven, eyes of the avoral, Speak with animals, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, light, daze and Message

A lot of these spells are combat focused, but some of them can also be used out of combat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Using Summon Monster I-VI, you potentially have access to

Dominate Monster, Insanity, Ethereal Jaunt, Mirror Jump, mislead, Plane Shift, wall of stone, false vision, Crushing Despair, wrack, dimension door, Good Hope, Stinking Cloud, Dipsel Magic, vampiric touch, Dispel Magic, major image, Continual Flame, Haboob, Slow, Animate Dead, Cure Serious Wounds, Bestow Curse, Create Food and Water, Alter Self, Spider Climb, Mirror Image, Charm Person, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Scare, See Invisibility, Invisibility, hold person, suggestion, Earthbind, Aid, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Melf's Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Soften Earth and Stone, Wind Wall, cure moderate wounds, Desecrate, Death knell, Blur, fog cloud, Color Spray, Feather Fall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, Disguise Self, Faerie Fire, Magic Missile, Sleep, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, detect good, command, detect poison, bless, Chill Metal, Detect Chaos, burning hands, expeditious retreat, jump, blessed sight, cause fear, obscuring mist, vision of heaven, eyes of the avoral, Speak with animals, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, light, daze and Message

A lot of these spells are combat focused, but some of them can also be used out of combat.

Summoned monsters can't use planar transport magic; no teleportation, no ethereality, at least not for the summoned creature itself. They can use such effects on others if the spell allows it though.

Any effect a summon puts in place also leaves with them so long-term spells aren't really effective coming from summoned monsters.

Those things aside, good list.

[Aharon]

Summoned monsters can't use planar transport magic; no teleportation, no ethereality, at least not for the summoned creature itself. They can use such effects on others if the spell allows it though.

Ah, forgot that rule applies, thanks!



Any effect a summon puts in place also leaves with them so long-term spells aren't really effective coming from summoned monsters.
Those things aside, good list.

That's probably the intention. Getting a bit rules-lawyery for fun :smalltongue:: the exact text is


When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Would that allow spell-likes to continue for their normal duration, since the very next sentence clearly distinguishes between the creatures' spells and the creatures' spell-like abilities?

[Anthrowhale]

nah, take it from disciple of thrym and cast it as a 4 instead

Perhaps 4th level spells become available to 7th level archivists...

[sorcererlover]

I'll give astral constructs a try. It's about time I learn psionics. Been staying away from it because you can only have 1 construct at a time and psionics don't have permanent minions, but seeing how I don't care about either of these right now I think it's a good opportunity to give psionics a try.

No web content is allowed or dragon mag, so if someone could point me in a direction I'd be happy, if not I get I have to read complete psionic in its entirety...

A little hesitant on demonologist since if i remember correctly, you have to do some serious evil stuff to gain that prc and maintain it.

[Falontani]

A little hesitant on demonologist since if i remember correctly, you have to do some serious evil stuff to gain that prc and maintain it.

Fluff lite: you gain a mark that makes you recognized by evil and your character knows how to do a good sacrifice. Fluff heavy... Your a despicable human being who sold not be allowed to live. With the fluff lite version you can stay in a relatively chaotic group. In fluff heavy the dm may step back and go, "Dude... That is horrible."

[radthemad4]

I'd buy Metamagic Rods of Imbued Summoning ( Player's Handbook II, p. 92) and occasionally use my lower level spells to buff summons with the same action as summoning them.

A list of spells it works with (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137090-Imbue-Summoning)

[Psyren]

1) Summoners (the archetype, not the PF class) aren't there for raw damage, their primary purpose is tanking/damage prevention. In the words of Treantmonk, "every single time an enemy hits a summon instead of a party member, you win."

2) You should only need 1 summon per combat of your highest levels. The lower levels are for battlefield control, utility, dispels and other things.

[Venger]

Perhaps 4th level spells become available to 7th level archivists...

oh, duh, I thought you were talking about spell level not character level.