Warlock deal with an imp

[Aaedimus]

Looking for DM advice!

My Warlock recently berated an NPC (and other player) for considering to make a pact with a quazit due to the danger to their soul, than when the team killed a few hags with an imp serving them he decided to make a deal for it to act as his familiar.

The deal was, gather the imp 5 souls a year (either through convincing them to sell their souls or by trapping their souls somehow) and it would act as his familiar.

He didn't set a way to get out of the deal, and afterwards tried to shift it to 6 souls a year with a yearly option for renewal, was unwilling to finalize it because the imp said "if you don't give me 6 souls, I get yours"

What he doesn't realize (at least in what I've read) is that this is already part of the deal if he fails to live up to his side of the bargain. He's stated out of character he's probably going to kill the imp.

He's also a Fiend pact Warlock with he isn't sure who, so his soul really wasn't his to bargain with anyways.

Any ideas on the ways this should/could play out? Next week btw, they're going to fight a Dracolitch resurrected with the essence of the Gulthias Tree (had to upgrade the sunless citadel to work for a 7 player lvl 8 team)

[TheYell]

Have the imp be a minion of his patron. He finds this out when he reduces the imp to 0 hit points and it revives every time.

[Unoriginal]

Looking for DM advice!

My Warlock recently berated an NPC (and other player) for considering to make a pact with a quazit due to the danger to their soul, than when the team killed a few hags with an imp serving them he decided to make a deal for it to act as his familiar.

The deal was, gather the imp 5 souls a year (either through convincing them to sell their souls or by trapping their souls somehow) and it would act as his familiar.

He didn't set a way to get out of the deal, and afterwards tried to shift it to 6 souls a year with a yearly option for renewal, was unwilling to finalize it because the imp said "if you don't give me 6 souls, I get yours"

What he doesn't realize (at least in what I've read) is that this is already part of the deal if he fails to live up to his side of the bargain. He's stated out of character he's probably going to kill the imp.

He's also a Fiend pact Warlock with he isn't sure who, so his soul really wasn't his to bargain with anyways.

Any ideas on the ways this should/could play out? Next week btw, they're going to fight a Dracolitch resurrected with the essence of the Gulthias Tree (had to upgrade the sunless citadel to work for a 7 player lvl 8 team)

He won't be able to kill the imp in the Material Plane. Imps just go back to Hell, unless killed into Hell.

Also, Fiend Pact Warlocks don't have to sell their soul to the Patron.

In fact, given how much a soul is worth, selling it just to be a Warlock is a very bad bargain. But it seems the Warlock is bad at bargaining anyway.

So, in any case, if the Warlock has agreed to give 5 souls without a way to get out, then he must do so. There is no way out, and killing the imp in the Material Place won't do anything. Hell, the Warlock might be *forced* to do that, unless the Imp agrees to re-negotiate when there is no reason for it.

Also since he's an horrible person who would send others to the Nine Hells just for a bit of power through Familiar, his soul is going to Hell anyway. The NPC he berated should laugh at his face.

If anything, that Imp deserves a BIG promotion for striking out such a great contract. At least to Chain Devil.

Or you could say the Imp is actually a greater Devil in disguise. Moloch would probably be interested in the treasures and magic ressources of a buffed up Sunless Citadel.

[Aaedimus]

Oh, he's definitely not getting out of it by "killing" the imp. I figured he'd realized what he'd done when he tried lol, with possibly an attempt at finding the imp's true name being the only way of getting out.

I did like the idea of promoting the imp. That could definitely be fun.

How would you suggest running it if I was to decide the imp would get promoted? (Might be a good time to buy Mordenkain's Tome lol)

Funny thing is, the NPC (Erky Timbers got a little dark after being tortured and forsake his own God) got a better deal, and it was with a Demon not a Devil, so his intentions weren't as complex or devious.

Would it be to much for the Patron to be angry at the deal, and temporarily cut off his Warlock powers? My biggest fear there would be now I'm going to have to communicate with him as the Patron, and I'm not sure how that would go. And what would the Patron want before re-gifting the powers?

If the imp works for the Patron, what's his purpose?

[Unoriginal]

Oh, he's definitely not getting out of it by "killing" the imp. I figured he'd realized what he'd done when he tried lol, with possibly an attempt at finding the imp's true name being the only way of getting out.

The Imp is not likely to have his name be known, and even if the Warlock did know it he wouldn't get out of the pact.



I did like the idea of promoting the imp. That could definitely be fun.

How would you suggest running it if I was to decide the imp would get promoted? (Might be a good time to buy Mordenkain's Tome lol)

Technically, the Imp would have to go to Hell, then be subjected to the flames of Phlegetos in a kind of ceremony, and if he's worthy he will transform into a greater form.



Funny thing is, the NPC (Erky Timbers got a little dark after being tortured and forsake his own God) got a better deal, and it was with a Demon not a Devil, so his intentions weren't as complex or devious.

Not sure why he would fosake his own god when, unless I'm mistaken, it's his god who allowed him to survive while in jail, but you're the DM.

A Quasit wouldn't want his soul (or any soul, for that matter), so it's true that it was likely a better deal.



Would it be to much for the Patron to be angry at the deal, and temporarily cut off his Warlock powers? My biggest fear there would be now I'm going to have to communicate with him as the Patron, and I'm not sure how that would go. And what would the Patron want before re-gifting the powers?

A Patron *cannot* cut off the power. The Patron just gives the spark of power once, and that's it, they can't take it back (since it's the Warlock's now).

It's possible a specific Patron words a formal pact so that the Warlock can't use their powers if they defy their Patron, but that'd be something additional to the power exchange.



If the imp works for the Patron, what's his purpose?

Getting the Gulthias Tree and/or the research notes of the Druid to duplicate it if possible so that the Nine Hells can have an army of killer plants and powerful magic fruits? Leading to the Patron getting much more powerful and affecting the Blood War?

[TheYell]

Would it be to much for the Patron to be angry at the deal, and temporarily cut off his Warlock powers? My biggest fear there would be now I'm going to have to communicate with him as the Patron, and I'm not sure how that would go. And what would the Patron want before re-gifting the powers?

If the imp works for the Patron, what's his purpose?

I think it time he owned up to who his Patron is, have him pick one.

The Patron wants him to represent the powers of Hell more openly, and the imp is there to make him more aggressive.

If he kills the imp, have it come back promoted as his "familiar" but holding him to the bargain he's made. You always control the "familiar" and it talks back to him, asking if this is helping capture people's souls and maybe saying "no" to his commands.

I wouldn't take his powers unless you want him confronted directly by his Patron, who could tell him he's already damned and better act like it, no more playing cutesy foot with Powers and Dominions, get out there and condemn.

[Angelalex242]

Fiendlocks default to Asmodeus.

And yes, that Imp is totally getting a promotion. Make him a chain devil. And have the Chain Devil continue to be the Warlock's familiar. Chain Devils aren't so easy to kill after all.

[Daithi]

I'm just following the thread with no useful advice, but what are the consequences when the player falls short of his 5 souls deal? Just his soul? Loss of the familiar? Both? Something else?

[DracoKnight]

Fiendlocks default to Asmodeus.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here, but if the intention is that all Fiendlocks who have not specified their patron are in a bargain with Asmodeus, I'm fairly sure you're wrong - or not so much wrong...but it's up to the DM. Unless I missed something in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, there's no official 5e commentary on the topic.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here, but if the intention is that all Fiendlocks who have not specified their patron are in a bargain with Asmodeus, I'm fairly sure you're wrong - or not so much wrong...but it's up to the DM. Unless I missed something in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, there's no official 5e commentary on the topic.

One possible piece of support for that theory is on page 10: "Any soul recruited by any denizen of the Nine Hells is also pledge in his name, and a cult dedicated to any other devil is also dedicated to him."

[Unoriginal]

One possible piece of support for that theory is on page 10: "Any soul recruited by any denizen of the Nine Hells is also pledge in his name, and a cult dedicated to any other devil is also dedicated to him."

That is not about Fiend Pact Warlocks, and while Asmodeus get a shares of the souls/worship, it doesn't mean he's the default.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm deleting this post.

[Malifice]

Firstly change the PCs alignment to evil.

If you're willingly entering a pact with a devil to murder 6 people a year and condemn their souls (and yours) to hell, you're obviously evil.

I presume this is uncontroversial.

I'd be pretty interested to see how the good aligned PCs handle it as well, particularly clerics and Paladins.

I presume 'selling your soul in an infernal murder pact' to be a mortal sin as far as their religions are concerned?

They certainly wouldn't have anything to do with the diabolist anymore at a bare minimum.

[Unoriginal]

In any case, that Warlock makes bad decisions the kind people write songs about.

[Daithi]

Firstly change the PCs alignment to evil.

If you're willingly entering a pact with a devil to murder 6 people a year and condemn their souls (and yours) to hell, you're obviously evil.

I presume this is uncontroversial.

I'd be pretty interested to see how the good aligned PCs handle it as well, particularly clerics and Paladins.

I presume 'selling your soul in an infernal murder pact' to be a mortal sin as far as their religions are concerned?

They certainly wouldn't have anything to do with the diabolist anymore at a bare minimum.

After reading the new Mordenkainen book, an argument could be made for a good PC (or at least a neutral one) to make this deal. Demons are like a virus that threaten transforming the material world into an extension of the Abyss and the destruction of all humanity, whereas this same threat is not posed by the devils. So, to save humanity, a PC joins forces with the devils (enemy of his enemy). He also may have agreed to deliver 6 lives, but his intention is to only deliver the souls of evil people anyway, but even if he were required to deliver innocent lives it is still a drop in the bucket compared to millions on the material plane. He also served up his own soul first.

[Unoriginal]

After reading the new Mordenkainen book, an argument could be made for a good PC (or at least a neutral one) to make this deal. Demons are like a virus that threaten transforming the material world into an extension of the Abyss and the destruction of all humanity, whereas this same threat is not posed by the devils. So, to save humanity, a PC joins forces with the devils (enemy of his enemy). He also may have agreed to deliver 6 lives, but his intention is to only deliver the souls of evil people anyway, but even if he were required to deliver innocent lives it is still a drop in the bucket compared to millions on the material plane. He also served up his own soul first.

No, no such argument can be made.

The Warlock is doing nothing for humanity, he agreed to make people give up their souls and empower Hell just to have a personal devil servant.

Nothing in this deal actually benefits anyone but the devils, and the Warlock by proxy.

Also the Devils are just as much of a threat to the Material Plane. If they won, they maybe wouldn't kill everyone, but being utterly loathsome tyrants they'd hardly be better.

[Daithi]

No, no such argument can be made.

The Warlock is doing nothing for humanity, he agreed to make people give up their souls and empower Hell just to have a personal devil servant.

Nothing in this deal actually benefits anyone but the devils, and the Warlock by proxy.

Also the Devils are just as much of a threat to the Material Plane. If they won, they maybe wouldn't kill everyone, but being utterly loathsome tyrants they'd hardly be better.

The argument can be made, considering that I kind of made it.

You also might want to read the section on Demons and Devils in MToF. It covers how demons are like a virus that spread into other planes and are not stuck in the Abyss, whereas devils on the other hand devils are stuck in the Nine Hells without someone summoning them. So, the threat from demons is far greater, and we don't have to worry about tyrant devils nearly as much.

Lastly, for what it's worth, you don't always need to be a jerk when you reply to a thread. Maybe try speaking to people in the way you want people to speak to you.

[Malifice]

The argument can be made, considering that I kind of made it.

And you could make the same argument to me as a player. I'd listen closely, and then pick up a pencil, and write 'Thinks he is this alignment' over what ever you had written in your alignment section, and then write next to it 'what your alignment actually is' with a E attached to it.

If you sooked about it, I'd politely explain that this is how the Gods view you (satanic murder pacts with actual devils clearly indicate to the Gods you're evil with a capital E, regardless of your or your PCs 'justifications'). If you kept on sooking about from that point and I'd boot you from the table and game.

[Unoriginal]

The argument can be made, considering that I kind of made it.

That's a sophism. People also have the capacity to argue that fire is actually water in the physical sense and that the color green weight 100kg, but it doesn't change that those arguments "can't be made" because they're built on faulty premise and fall appart.

While not as extreme, what you said is supported by neither the books nor OP.



You also might want to read the section on Demons and Devils in MToF. It covers how demons are like a virus that spread into other planes and are not stuck in the Abyss, whereas devils on the other hand devils are stuck in the Nine Hells without someone summoning them. So, the threat from demons is far greater, and we don't have to worry about tyrant devils nearly as much.

I've read the Mordenkainen's, and there is nothing in it suggesting that selling your soul and the souls of others for your personal benefit is a good or neutral act. There is a whole section talking about cultists who did that, and they're rather not good or neutral.


Furthermore, "do bad things to others to protect from the demon invasion" is also portrayed as evil. Devils do that constantly, and boy are they evil.

And even if most Devils are stuck in Hell, giving them an advantage like that is exactly what they do to get more support, so that they can leave Hell thanks to being summoned.

Also, even if a good person could make the sacrifice of their soul to counter the Demon infection... this is simply not what's happening here.

The Warlock is not doing anything to fight the Demon infection, he made a deal to get a personal Devil servant, and is fighting in a dungeon that has nothing to do with any Demon invading the Material Plane.

He literally agreed to send people to Hell just to get an improved version of Find Familiar, losing his soul in the process.



Lastly, for what it's worth, you don't always need to be a jerk when you reply to a thread. Maybe try speaking to people in the way you want people to speak to you.

First, I've been nothing but polite, and hopefully nice, with the people in this thread before your post, aside maybe from mocking the Warlock's decision-making-skills.

Second, I do speak with people the way I expect them to speak with me. If I make a mistake, I expect to be corrected, and if I make an unsupported claim, I expect to be called out on it.


I apologize for sounding overly harsh in my post, however.

[Aaedimus]

So I talked too him a bit about it last game, and his thought process was basically that he wanted to use the new familiar to help him get out of the pact he made with his patron. I will probably promote the little guy. They're all about to hit level 9, so a stronger familiar that I control doesn't feel that op.

I like the idea that his patron is Asmodeas. He's never spoken to his patron directly, and left it to me to decide exactly what he was dealing with.

He never specified the terms of breaking the pact, and so I defaulted it to the genaric one (and he'll learn this) which is basically, the devil gets his soul in the form of a pupa like creature that's basically used as a currency in the 9 hells, and has many used for arcane or fiendish types.... though I forget the details and can't find references for that exactly...

[Unoriginal]

So I talked too him a bit about it last game, and his thought process was basically that he wanted to use the new familiar to help him get out of the pact he made with his patron. I will probably promote the little guy. They're all about to hit level 9, so a stronger familiar that I control doesn't feel that op.

I like the idea that his patron is Asmodeas. He's never spoken to his patron directly, and left it to me to decide exactly what he was dealing with.

He never specified the terms of breaking the pact, and so I defaulted it to the genaric one (and he'll learn this) which is basically, the devil gets his soul in the form of a pupa like creature that's basically used as a currency in the 9 hells, and has many used for arcane or fiendish types.... though I forget the details and can't find references for that exactly...

Do you mean a Lemur?

Also, if he's trying to use the Imp to get out of his Pact, you should probably make the imp a servant of Glasya. She's the one who looks into pacts to find a way to break them safely.

[Spyderson]

People talking about promoting the imp got me thinking about the violator from the spawn comics.

Outwardly appears as a fat unassuming clown that pesters spawn more than anything, but is actually an elder demon(devil) of hell in disguise.

Perhaps this imp could keep his outward appearance as a weak imp, and take the same role as guide to the young warlock. He would whisper destructive ideas (telepathically ofc), and berate him if he appears to do something morally just. If the warlock tires of the pest and tries to kill him, the imp would reveal his true form and put up a much larger fight than anticipated.

Link to the animated series representation of violator if you're interested (https://youtu.be/CKM6TlX2cZw).

[Aaedimus]

So the imp got a promotion, and so far it's been gold.

The Warlock already immediately regretted the deal, however the devil has been playing along and has been supremely supportive and obedient, which makes the Warlock even more uncomfortable. He was willing however to provide a bit of his own blood to the little imp when he asked for it, and the imp used that for a ritual to return to the 9 hells and become....

Well I made a mistake and he became an incubus, which (oops) is a demon not a devil. My monster compendium just had it listed as a fiend and I assumed. BUT the interactions have been gold. They're all super suspicious, and he's just being really friendly, helpful, obedient and flirtatious (mostly obedient) and super touchey feely.

He's already showing loophole skirting by calling the Warlock "Master Cidus" when he got uncomfortable with the implied kink of just straight up "Master".

It's been storytelling gold, but obviously incubi being demonic and not devil is an issue
Should I ignore my mistake and play as is, or write it in somehow? And what would that "somehow" be? They physically saw the change, so there's no way to write in a bait and switch.

[Unoriginal]

So the imp got a promotion, and so far it's been gold.

The Warlock already immediately regretted the deal, however the devil has been playing along and has been supremely supportive and obedient, which makes the Warlock even more uncomfortable. He was willing however to provide a bit of his own blood to the little imp when he asked for it, and the imp used that for a ritual to return to the 9 hells and become....

Well I made a mistake and he became an incubus, which (oops) is a demon not a devil. My monster compendium just had it listed as a fiend and I assumed. BUT the interactions have been gold. They're all super suspicious, and he's just being really friendly, helpful, obedient and flirtatious (mostly obedient) and super touchey feely.

He's already showing loophole skirting by calling the Warlock "Master Cidus" when he got uncomfortable with the implied kink of just straight up "Master".

It's been storytelling gold, but obviously incubi being demonic and not devil is an issue
Should I ignore my mistake and play as is, or write it in somehow? And what would that "somehow" be? They physically saw the change, so there's no way to write in a bait and switch.

Incubi are not demons in 5e. They're Fiends from Hades.


You should just say that the former imp was just ****ing with the Warlock/trying to make him think things were better than they were, and the imp actually turned into a chain devil, but with the added power of shapeshifting into a "pretty boy" form.

They saw A change, they probably don't know enough about devils to know the true form at a glance.

[Aaedimus]

I like that. Basically, he's being manipulated.... I think I will keep the incubus thing going for a while and give him a big reveal when the time is right.

He was never an imp and he was much more powerful than they thought. They actually found him after killing a coven of Hags he was working with. I don't think it would be that crazy to say that is there was more than meets the eye in that situation.