Druid Wild Shape Issues and perhaps worlds best "pin cushion"?

[Paladinatheart]

I recently switched to DMing 5e Dnd games from originally DMing 3.5 and now through my players I have really come to appreciate the Druid class. I really like the Circle of the Moon path when focusing on a Wild Shape ability to be a melee character.

Here is my question? Can my player have his character use wild shape, change into a Dire Wolf, and apply his Dwarven Toughness (and how?)
It says in the the PH that you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source.

The player is a Lvl 5 Hill Dwarf Druid (Circle of the Moon) and also has the Dwarven Fortitude Feat (XG racial feat). So how do I include the Dwarven Toughness to his Dire Wolf form? Should I just add 5 Hit Points (since he is level five)?

Does he still get to use his Dwarven Fortitude Feat? Because it technically is a "racial feat" and you get to keep the benefits of your race, am I right? While in Wild Shape does the character have the ability to use any feats (of course not with obvious ones like spell casting related feats).

On another note (if all this works out): This player is the perfect pin cushion because he just takes damage when he is in Wild Shape. Because of the Dwarven Fortitude Feat he takes a Doge Action and heals 1d8 + CON Modifier (HD of Druid) and then he uses as a bonus action his Circle of the Moon feature where he expends a spell slot to regain 1d8/level of spell slot expended. So the player just sits there in the mist of battle dodging half the attacks and taking the others. So he isnt the perfect tank cause he doesnt really fight but he soaks up the damage: a pin cushion. Then he drops back to dwarf form and then "abra kadabra" he Wild Shape changes into an animal form again (for the last time). And even if he runs out of spell slots to heal he still uses the Dwarven Fortitude Feat to stay around a little longer.

I was astounded at how clever the player was in thinking this out but it feels over powering in a way. This is why I am asking if his character applying his feat and racial ability works?

FYI: The group consisted of a Dwarf (hill) Druid, Elf Ranger, and Human Rogue (swashbuckler) all level 5. They were fighting 2 normal trolls (stats you find in the MM) and a slightly stronger Troll Boss. Actually I thought they would fight each troll separately but instead the druid transformed into a dire wolf and charged right in and the others ran after him. Clever strategy and many rolls later the fight was over.

[Tanarii]

I go with no. Anything that modifies your final stats that are replaced by the form are replace by the form. This includes anything that permanently modifies your physical stats or your HPs.

Otoh I don't use feats, so I don't have to worry about them. But I'd still run it the same way.

Examples of things that do or would not apply:
ASI to physical scores
Half feats to physical scores
Sorc's Draconic resilience to AC/HP
Hill Dwarf's Dwarven Toughness
Toughness Feat
Mobile Extra speed

Things that do or should apply:
Barkskin cast before using wild shape
Mobile avoiding OAs

Personally, I believe this to be the RAI of Wild Shape. Although possibly not a strictly parsed RAW.

One I'm on the fence about, but doesn't apply in my game because I run a single class only campaign: Monk/Barbarian Unarmored Defense. This could be argued that it's training, not a physical trait. I'd probably rule against it in the end, but only because it tickles my (slightly over-sensitive) DM's cheese-radar. Luckily I don't need to worry about it.

[tieren]

I think you are going to take it on a case by case basis.

Personally I would allow toughness and dwarven fortitude, not not something like heavy armor master.

[Paladinatheart]

I go with no. Anything that modifies your final stats that are replaced by the form are replace by the form. This includes anything that permanently modifies your physical stats or your HPs.

Otoh I don't use feats, so I don't have to worry about them. But I'd still run it the same way.

Examples of things that do or would not apply:
ASI to physical scores
Half feats to physical scores
Sorc's Draconic resilience to AC/HP
Hill Dwarf's Dwarven Toughness
Toughness Feat
Mobile Extra speed

Things that do or should apply:
Barkskin cast before using wild shape
Mobile avoiding OAs

Personally, I believe this to be the RAI of Wild Shape. Although possibly not a strictly parsed RAW.

One I'm on the fence about, but doesn't apply in my game because I run a single class only campaign: Monk/Barbarian Unarmored Defense. This could be argued that it's training, not a physical trait. I'd probably rule against it in the end, but only because it tickles my (slightly over-sensitive) DM's cheese-radar. Luckily I don't need to worry about it.

Thanks for the fast reply. This is the reason I asked. Your explanation was very good. Though the 5 HP added to the Dire Wolf HP wont be such a big drag for the player but what about the Racial Feat Dwarven Fortitude? I know you said you dont play with Feats but as a person who has played 3.5 Dnd for the last 16 years it is hard for me to just drop them all together. I am still wondering if it works in the Wild Shape form because it falls under the racial abilities, right?

[Pex]

Your hit points are replaced by that of the animal you turn into. A druid can have a million hit points. When he becomes a black bear he has the hit points of a black bear.

[Paladinatheart]

I think you are going to take it on a case by case basis.

Personally I would allow toughness and dwarven fortitude, not not something like heavy armor master.

I am thinking of not allowing the Dwarven Toughness because the arguments presented in this thread are pretty sound.

But no one (other than you...) has really answered my question about the Dwarven Fortitude Feat? I think I will permit that Feat because it falls under a racial characteristics. Even if the character Wild Shapes into a Dire Wolf, he still is a Dwarf Druid that can heal itself 1d8 (HD) + CON Modifier while using dodge ability. Plus, if I tell that poor player that he cant combine that with his Druid Feature of healing 1d8/spell slot then he will be really bummed out. It is a nice combo, I think if I ever get a chance to play as a character (since I havent played as a character the last 10 years since I am stuck being DM...) I will play a dwarf druid and use this clever combo.:smallcool:

[Corpsecandle717]

Also another interesting little quirk. When a druid wildshapes they become a beast, no longer a humanoid which means the character would no longer have the pre-req of race dwarf to be able to use this particular feat.

[Contrast]

I was astounded at how clever the player was in thinking this out but it feels over powering in a way. This is why I am asking if his character applying his feat and racial ability works?

Honestly I feel that spending spell slots and hit die (particularly given it requires twiddling your thumbs for a turn in combat) healing his ablative animal form is very rarely going to be the best uses of those resources. Moon druids already have tonnes of ablative HP (particularly at lower levels). I'd be inclined to let him use the ability of the feat while wildshaped simply because I consider the feat to be generally underpowered so anything which helps give it an edge is OK in my book.

Keep in mind while he may be able to dodge every turn and stay there for an astounding number of turns getting whaled on, a fighter would have just killed them in the mean time. Or if he's just dodging and healing, why would they bother keeping on whaling on him?

[Corpsecandle717]

Honestly I feel that spending spell slots and hit die (particularly given it requires twiddling your thumbs for a turn in combat) healing his ablative animal form is very rarely going to be the best uses of those resources. Moon druids already have tonnes of ablative HP (particularly at lower levels). I'd be inclined to let him use the ability of the feat while wildshaped simply because I consider the feat to be generally underpowered so anything which helps give it an edge is OK in my book.


It's pretty situational. If you need to go into animal form early in combat you're just running around with all these spells that aren't doing anything, plus you're pretty easy to hit with beast AC so those HPs don't always last that long. Sometimes just getting wailed on while the healer can use their resources to debuff instead of heal is the best thing for the party.

That said, the rest of your point is valid.

[xyianth]

Personally, I would continue to allow the player to use dwarven fortitude while wild shaped. It requires a pretty steep investment to have that ability in the first place and it is pretty underwhelming anyway. One thing I would watch out for though is if the player dips 2 levels as a rogue, because then dodging is a bonus action. While this would conflict with the spell slot healing of the druid, it would be a viable way to extend the amount of healing done and enable him to actually fight while doing it. I'd still allow this combo, as it is a high investment, but as a DM I'd be ready to adapt enemy tactics to handle it should it come up.

[Tanarii]

Thanks for the fast reply. This is the reason I asked. Your explanation was very good. Though the 5 HP added to the Dire Wolf HP wont be such a big drag for the player but what about the Racial Feat Dwarven Fortitude? I know you said you dont play with Feats but as a person who has played 3.5 Dnd for the last 16 years it is hard for me to just drop them all together. I am still wondering if it works in the Wild Shape form because it falls under the racial abilities, right?
I don't remember what the racial Feat Dwarven Fortitude does off the top of my head.

Or do you mean the Racial Feature?


One thing I would watch out for though is if the player dips 2 levels as a rogue, because then dodging is a bonus action.Cunning Action doesn't allow Dodge as a bonus action. Hide, Dash or Disengage.

[Corpsecandle717]

I don't remember what the racial Feat Dwarven Fortitude does off the top of my head.

Or do you mean the Racial Feature?

It's a feat, allows the dwarf to roll a 1HD+Con when they dodge.

[Corpsecandle717]

So elaborating on my earlier point about wild shape changing creature/racial type:

From the section on feats: "You must meet any prerequisite specified in a feat to take that feat. If you ever lose a feat’s prerequisite, you can’t use that feat until you regain the prerequisite"

While the combo illustrated in this scenario is not terribly powerful it could lead to other issues at the table with other players. It becomes harder to justify when another player loses a stat pre-req and can't utilize one of their feats.
Based on that alone I would be disinclined to allow it.

[hymer]

Smart things have already been said. I'll add two details:

Can my player have his character use wild shape, change into a Dire Wolf, and apply his Dwarven Toughness (and how?)
Mike Mearls votes 'don't think so' (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/03/03/druid-hill-dwarf/).


This player is the perfect pin cushion because he just takes damage when he is in Wild Shape.
I prefer the term 'damage sponge'. :smallsmile:

[Contrast]

It's pretty situational. If you need to go into animal form early in combat you're just running around with all these spells that aren't doing anything, plus you're pretty easy to hit with beast AC so those HPs don't always last that long. Sometimes just getting wailed on while the healer can use their resources to debuff instead of heal is the best thing for the party.

That said, the rest of your point is valid.

I mean that's true if you expect a fight to be the final combat of the day and you have plenty of resources left. But if that's the case it doesn't really matter what you do, you were probably going to breeze through the combat anyway.

Otherwise you need to be thinking about conserving those spell slots for later combats. At level 5 a druid can Conjure Animals, Hold Person, Heat Metal, Call Lightning. These are what I'd want them to be spending their spell slots on.

I agree sometimes it'll be the right thing to do but not often enough that it should be a go to tactic like OP seems to be describing.
.

[tieren]

Second what others have said.

Yes it can be great to have a player that can get beat on for a while.

Why is anyone beating on him if he isn't hurting anybody and the beatings aren't having an effect?

If hes that invested on healing himself he may find it tough to switch to needing to protect the squishies when the enemies decide to just ignore him.

[Pex]

This topic has come up before with regards to Tough feat.

A druid without Tough has X hit points. He wildshapes into an animal of Y hit points. After taking Y damage he reverts to his normal form at X hit points. Wildshape gives him an effective X + Y hit points.

Suppose a druid can keep Tough while wildshaped.

A druid with Tough has X + 2L hit points where L = level. He wildshapes into an animal of HD H. Because of Tough, does he have Y + 2H hit points or Y + 2L hit points? Problem.

Let's assume he gets +2L hit points. He's wildshaped into an animal with Y + 2L hit points. After taking Y + 2L damage he reverts to his normal form of X + 2L hit points. Wildshape with Tough gives him an effective X + Y + 4L hit points, doubling the value of Tough. If He got 2H hit points instead his effective hit points is X + Y + 2L + 2H, which is still 2H more hit points than Tough is supposed to give.

Going back to wildshape with Tough giving +2L hit points, after taking Y + 2L damage and reverting back to normal form the druid wildshapes again to a different animal of Z hit points and has Z + 2L hit points. Tough has now given him 6L hit points.

Tough is a nice feat, but it's not that nice. Therefore you follow the rule that your hit points are replaced by the animal you wildshape into. It doesn't matter how you got your normal hit point total. It's replaced.

Temporary hit points can carry over. Temporary hit points is its own category and already specifies it doesn't stack with itself. Once they're gone they're gone. With T = temporary hit points, a druid with X + T hit points wildshapes into an animal of Y + T hit points. After taking Y + T damage, since T = 0 he reverts to his normal druid form of X hit points.

[Tubben]

I recently switched to DMing 5e Dnd games from originally DMing 3.5 and now through my players I have really come to appreciate the Druid class. I really like the Circle of the Moon path when focusing on a Wild Shape ability to be a melee character.

Here is my question? Can my player have his character use wild shape, change into a Dire Wolf, and apply his Dwarven Toughness (and how?)
It says in the the PH that you retain the benefit of any features from your class, race or other source.


He cant apply Dwarven Toughness, IMHO, he is not a dwarf anymore.

PHB says : You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the newform is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless our new form also has that sense.

In that special case it falls for me under "not physically capable". The Feat Though dont work in Beastform also. Thats the best indicator for me.

edit: Should have read whole thread before answering the first post :) Everything said already.

[Paladinatheart]

I don't remember what the racial Feat Dwarven Fortitude does off the top of my head.

Or do you mean the Racial Feature?

Cunning Action doesn't allow Dodge as a bonus action. Hide, Dash or Disengage.

Dwarven Fortitude is a Racial Feat from Xanathars Guide and allows a dwarf to heal him/herself 1HD + CON modifier while using Dodge Action during their turn. It kind of falls along the line of a racial feature because it is specific to that race. Well this is why I asked because I wasnt sure, but the more I think of it (and read what others have posted) the feat should still apply even in the animal form.

I think I am going to allow it for the player and I kind of like the combo with Circle of the Moon healing spell slot ability.

[Tanarii]

If being a dwarf is a prereq for the feat, then it shouldn't work when wildshaped I would think.

[Paladinatheart]

If being a dwarf is a prereq for the feat, then it shouldn't work when wildshaped I would think.

Yes I am taking that into consideration but technically he is magically assuming the shape of a creature he saw. And I will also allow it because the Dwarven Fortitude Feat says: you have the blood of dwarf heroes flowing through your veins; this doesnt change when in Wild Shape. I know it is a weak argument, but I am caught between the fine lines. On one hand I want to stick to the book but I cant help but want my player to have this one.:smallamused:

[Paladinatheart]

So elaborating on my earlier point about wild shape changing creature/racial type:

From the section on feats: "You must meet any prerequisite specified in a feat to take that feat. If you ever lose a feat’s prerequisite, you can’t use that feat until you regain the prerequisite"

While the combo illustrated in this scenario is not terribly powerful it could lead to other issues at the table with other players. It becomes harder to justify when another player loses a stat pre-req and can't utilize one of their feats.
Based on that alone I would be disinclined to allow it.

But does the Dwarf Druid really lose his race type while in Wild Shape? In the PHB, the druid "magically assumes the shape of a wild beast that he/she has seen before". They dont really change into the beast, just a form of it; as I see it the Druid is still a Dwarf just in a Dire Wolf form. The feat can used because a Dire Wolf (or any other animal) is capable of dodge action.

Plus, in XG the text reads that (apart from the prerequisite of being a dwarf) that "dwarven blood of heroes flowing through your veins" which is still the case even in Wild Shape, so he is still dwarf. I know it is a weak argument, but I think it gives my claim more creedence. :smallwink:

[Tanarii]

Hey it's your game. If you think it's better to allow it, allow it. Edit: by which I mean, I don't think you're shooting yourself in the foot, so if there's other reasons in favor of it other than balance reasons or "how it should be" in regards to the rules, I think you should totally go for it

[nilshai]

If being a dwarf is a prereq for the feat, then it shouldn't work when wildshaped I would think.

You are a dwarf, who magically assumed the form of a beast. Your are a wildshaped dwarf, not a beast. Nothing in the rules says "you become a beast", which is exactly why you keep your racial stuff.

The RAW answer is this:
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable o f doing so."

Thus you retain ASI (Class Feature), Feats like Dwarven Fortitude(Class Feature), and Racial Abilities like. You are physically capable of having hit points, so you can have more. You are also capable of spending hit dice to regain hp, so you can spend hit dice to regain more hp.

[Tanarii]

Maybe. But IMO RAI is you definitely do not retain ASIs to physical stats. Those get replaced.