Casting Mirror Image while Grappled

[nickl_2000]

The other day I was playing as a Giant Ant from Tome of Beasts. It has an ability similar to the Giant Constrictor where if it hits with a bite attack, the opponent is automatically grappled and restrained.

My opponent, a Ogre Sorceress, cast the 2nd level illusion spell Mirror Image. How would you rule that Mirror Image would interact with me, who is grappling the person? It's not like I'm going to be tricked and attack the wrong person with my bite attack (while my character pincers are literally attached around the ogre). How would this appear to other PCs out there?


The DM ruled that the attacks were normal per the rules of Mirror Image, because it's magic and magic is weird. I'm just curious about how other feel about it?

[RSP]

The other day I was playing as a Giant Ant from Tome of Beasts. It has an ability similar to the Giant Constrictor where if it hits with a bite attack, the opponent is automatically grappled and restrained.

My opponent, a Ogre Sorceress, cast the 2nd level illusion spell Mirror Image. How would you rule that Mirror Image would interact with me, who is grappling the person? It's not like I'm going to be tricked and attack the wrong person with my bite attack (while my character pincers are literally attached around the ogre). How would this appear to other PCs out there?


The DM ruled that the attacks were normal per the rules of Mirror Image, because it's magic and magic is weird. I'm just curious about how other feel about it?

If there's an on-going damage rider to the attack (popular with Pathfinder grapples if I recall correctly) they would occur as normal. However, if something requires a new attack roll, I'd have it occur as normal. Like if the grapple ability grants Advantage, then the attack has Advantage. But MI would still work as normal.

Are you arguing that since the Sorceress is grappled there shouldn't need to be an attack roll? Because if there needs to be an attack roll, there's just as much chance of you being fooled by a MI as anyone else attacking.

[nickl_2000]

If there's an on-going damage rider to the attack (popular with Pathfinder grapples if I recall correctly) they would occur as normal. However, if something requires a new attack roll, I'd have it occur as normal. Like if the grapple ability grants Advantage, then the attack has Advantage. But MI would still work as normal.

Are you arguing that since the Sorceress is grappled there shouldn't need to be an attack roll? Because if there needs to be an attack roll, there's just as much chance of you being fooled by a MI as anyone else attacking.

No actually the thought was that there was no way that I would hit one of the mirror images with the bite attack with the pincers.

With mirror image it creates illusionary duplicates of the caster that you hit instead of the caster on certain die rolls. In my Giant Ant form, I have the caster grappled and restrained by my pincers, which I can then use to make a bite attack against the person I am restraining (at advantage because restrained). How in the world would I be tricked into hitting one of the iillusionary mirror images when I am literally holding the caster in my jaws and biting them?

[RSP]

No actually the thought was that there was no way that I would hit one of the mirror images with the bite attack with the pincers.

With mirror image it creates illusionary duplicates of the caster that you hit instead of the caster on certain die rolls. In my Giant Ant form, I have the caster grappled and restrained by my pincers, which I can then use to make a bite attack against the person I am restraining (at advantage because restrained). How in the world would I be tricked into hitting one of the iillusionary mirror images when I am literally holding the caster in my jaws and biting them?

Yes, I understand how MI works.

You would miss the same way you would miss with the bite attack: you were wrong with where you thought your target was.

Again, you seem to be arguing "how could I miss" more than "how could I hit a MI." If there's a. Janice you can miss (which there is apparently), then there's a chance you could mistakenly go after a MI.

[Haydensan]

You've got to remember that the attack rolls advantage and all the other mechanics are an abstraction to let you interact with the world.

I see your point though that it wouldn't make too much sense logically for MI to take affect for you, but by RAW you still would. If I changed the situation to a constrictor snake reapplying its constrict you could say that it might apply the pressure in the wrong places because of the images.

Ultimately it's just an ask your DM question.

[nickl_2000]

You've got to remember that the attack rolls advantage and all the other mechanics are an abstraction to let you interact with the world.

I see your point though that it wouldn't make too much sense logically for MI to take affect for you, but by RAW you still would. If I changed the situation to a constrictor snake reapplying its constrict you could say that it might apply the pressure in the wrong places because of the images.

Ultimately it's just an ask your DM question.

It was a DMs call, and I agree with RAW that it should apply (I have no problem with his call, especially since the Sorceress was dropping fast and hard at that point from others on the team). It's just one of those odd situations in my mind, and I'm just trying to work my head cannon around how it would work. I suppose applying the pressure in the wrong place would make the most sense.

[RSP]

You've got to remember that the attack rolls advantage and all the other mechanics are an abstraction to let you interact with the world.

I see your point though that it wouldn't make too much sense logically for MI to take affect for you, but by RAW you still would. If I changed the situation to a constrictor snake reapplying its constrict you could say that it might apply the pressure in the wrong places because of the images.

Ultimately it's just an ask your DM question.

The constrictor snake is different as its blindsight would essentially make the MI moot while it's grappling.

"A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

[clash]

I think the key line here is that Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space.. See bolded. The images dont appear beside you necessarily, they appear where you are but shifted just enough that someone might target the wrong spot. So to someone grappling the real one it appears that you are grappling the mirror images as well they are just moving around differently then the real one and you arent sure where to place your blows because of this. I agree with Rsp29a, if there was no attack roll required then there would be no chance of hitting the mirror image, but if you have a chance of "mistargetting" when there is only one person then you have a chance of targeting the wrong image when there is multiple.

[Haydensan]

Good catch on the blind sight, forgot they had that.


I think the key line here is that Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space.. See bolded. The images dont appear beside you necessarily, they appear where you are but shifted just enough that someone might target the wrong spot. So to someone grappling the real one it appears that you are grappling the mirror images as well they are just moving around differently then the real one and you arent sure where to place your blows because of this. I agree with Rsp29a, if there was no attack roll required then there would be no chance of hitting the mirror image, but if you have a chance of "mistargetting" when there is only one person then you have a chance of targeting the wrong image when there is multiple.

Pretty much this, when I DM i think i'll rule it this way now.

[nickl_2000]

The constrictor snake is different as its blindsight would essentially make the MI moot while it's grappling.

"A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

Dang, I didn't know about that. The Giant Ant has Blindsight 60 feet too :smallbiggrin:


I think the key line here is that Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space.. See bolded. The images dont appear beside you necessarily, they appear where you are but shifted just enough that someone might target the wrong spot. So to someone grappling the real one it appears that you are grappling the mirror images as well they are just moving around differently then the real one and you arent sure where to place your blows because of this. I agree with Rsp29a, if there was no attack roll required then there would be no chance of hitting the mirror image, but if you have a chance of "mistargetting" when there is only one person then you have a chance of targeting the wrong image when there is multiple.

This makes sense, thanks for correctly aiming my head cannon.

[Corpsecandle717]

Yeah this is pretty interesting scenario. The mind boggling bit is that even if you miss regarding the application of damage, the npc still remains grappled until they escape. Weird.

[Lunali]

For the giant ant, the target is restrained by the same thing you're making attacks with, but there's still the possibility of missing on the attack. I would describe this as not being able to get through the target's armor (if any) or as the target managing to prevent you from adjusting your bite to do additional damage. In the case of MI, (if the ant didn't have blindsight) your attempt to adjust your bite was based on the target's body being in a different direction from your jaws than it actually is.

[Malifice]

Close your eyes.

Is what I would say if your ant had eyelids.

Seeing as it has blindsight, it doesn't matter it automatically detects the real thing.