Improved Full Pouch?

[EldritchWeaver]

I noticed the spell full pouch (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/full-pouch/) as part of gaining more of teas of transferences (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tea%20of%20tran sference). But the sad thing is that the spell only duplicates the item. Which means you can only get one slot back, which you could use to cast full pouch again. Which doesn't do anything but waste time. To actually get more spell slots out of this, one needs a spell which creates at least two duplicates. But the closest I could find was fabricate, which still requires the material cost. While I can make that work, I do wonder if there is a direct upgrade of full pouch. Did I miss one? Or do I need to take this up with the GM to make a homebrew spell?

[Zaq]

Is there a PF equivalent to Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Echoing Spell, Chain Spell, or something similar?

Alternatively, you could do the math and determine if a charge from a wand of Full Pouch is more or less expensive than the item in question.

[Dimers]

Echoing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic) from Ultimate Magic is +3 levels. I don't see any other options at a glance.

[Necroticplague]

You could use Channel the Gift to cast an Echoing Full Pouch. You'd use a third level spell to gain two Teas of Transferance, one of which you could use to regain the Channel the Gift you used to start this whole thing.

[EldritchWeaver]

Echoing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic) from Ultimate Magic is +3 levels. I don't see any other options at a glance.


Is there a PF equivalent to Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Echoing Spell, Chain Spell, or something similar?

Alternatively, you could do the math and determine if a charge from a wand of Full Pouch is more or less expensive than the item in question.

How could I forget metamagic? Echoing is effectively perfect - the high spell level is irrelevant since I can refresh that spell slot. I have to employ it downtime, but the creation is instantaneous, so that doesn't really matter aside of drinking a lot of tea (which might cause objections from the GM), as long I can refresh my supply.

In regards to the wand idea, one charge costs 90 gp, compared to the 40 gp - or 13 1/3 gp when using fabricate. So that's a no.


You could use Channel the Gift to cast an Echoing Full Pouch. You'd use a third level spell to gain two Teas of Transferance, one of which you could use to regain the Channel the Gift you used to start this whole thing.

I don't see how Channel the Gift works for Echoing Full Pouch. The former has a limit of 3rd level spells, the latter is a 5th level spell.

[Necroticplague]

I don't see how Channel the Gift works for Echoing Full Pouch. The former has a limit of 3rd level spells, the latter is a 5th level spell.

Echoing Full Pouch is a second level spell, it’s just cast out of a fifth level slot.

[Jack_Simth]

Are you planning on combining with Replenish Ki (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/replenish-ki/)?

[Zanos]

Echoing Full Pouch is a second level spell, it’s just cast out of a fifth level slot.
FAQ says that spells with metamagic applied always count as the least beneficial level to the caster.

It doesn't look like anything prevents you from using full pouch a million times during downtime, though.

[Necroticplague]

FAQ says that spells with metamagic applied always count as the least beneficial level to the caster.

The FAQ appears to be incorrect in that regard.

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
"All ways". No exceptions given. Not 'if it's disadvantageous', all ways.

[Jack_Simth]

The FAQ appears to be incorrect in that regard.

"All ways". No exceptions given. Not 'if it's disadvantageous', all ways.

In Pathfinder, the FAQ is errata, so...

[EldritchWeaver]

Are you planning on combining with Replenish Ki (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/replenish-ki/)?

I wasn't aware of it, but I'll make use of it. The point of this full pouch business is the build idea I have seen. Employing of Ki Channel to generate ki and tea of transference to generate channel energy uses. Once you have at least 2d6 channel energy dice you can create more ki than you need to replenish channel energy uses. But the sticky point is that you need create teas of transferences with zero costs. The echoing spell approach works and can push this down to 3rd level spell slots if you employ the appropriate traits. If you plan to use the replenshing of

The other problem is with that build idea is that you need both channel energy and ki pool. The minimum level to get both is ninja 2/(cleric 1 or life oracle 1 or ...). Not that bad if you intend to stay in that caster class, but wizard in particular is tempting. It's unfortunate that you need level 20 to get 9th level spells and are behind on spells in general. Which is particularly bad for the replenishable spells, since they are 3 and 1/2 spell levels behind. Which mean one needs to get rid of the dead levels.

There is the tengu racial shigenjo oracle archetype (human can apply with racial heritage), which can take life for channel energy and gets a ki pool at 7th level. But that seemingly misses out on full pouch - unless you get a constant use magic item (which I'd argue would actually cost only 6,000 gp, as instantaneous has that effective 24h+ duration), I can't find a way to actually get it on the oracle list. But alternatively, you could take ancient lorewarden (both archetypes aren't compatible to my regret), which locks it in to elf and other related races, but you can get your full pouch at level 6th+ - and a few other choice spells. Then you need to take the monk VMC. Unfortunately that one requires 11th level, which means that this works only for high level builds. I don't think that the spell lists, on which full pouch is availble, lend them well for other alternatives. Swamp Domain Druid is the sole one I found which could work, so at least there is a way for the second divine list.

But for wizard replenish ki is actually another alternative, which cuts the cleric dip out. There are other ways to get divine spells on your list (like prestige classes, but that requires a way to get a spellbook with divine spells, if your GM doesn't ignore the ruling that advancing in a prestige class should grant you the 2 automatic spells - or employ the fact that at least some arcane classes get divine spells on their list and spell book), so this is only a minor problem. More problematic is that the spell is 4th level. The replenishing of the tea requires then a caster with 6th level spell slots. Which means you need 11th level. But, if you go the monk VMC route, then you need for the ki pool 11th level anyway. Which means that aside from losing 5 feats and having to spend one additional metamagic feat (or take the full pouch item for 6k gp) and whatever you need to do to get replensih ki (maybe taking the samsaran route or just take also a magic item, which I'd also consider merely 28k gp) - so if lucky, only 34k and 5 feats, which are affordable at 11th level - you can choose your wizard to be anything you want. I'd consider actually Exploiter Wizard and HH Pact Wizard. The former, in case the GM says that restoring an expended spell slot includes the chosen spell, so I can switch around. The latter because then I could choose Healing or Mercy patrons to keep being able to heal people. Choosing any other patron is nice, if you want to prepare utility spells and a patron has a choosy list of combat spells (didn't check).

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... poking around for other routes... can we get all of this on a single-classed full caster?

... probably.

There's a third party feat to get a ki pool: Ki Meditation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/legendary-games/ki-feats/ki-meditation-ki/), which explicitly qualifies you for Extra Ki (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-ki/) to get to a pool size of 3. You obviously also want Eschew Materials (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eschew-materials-final/) to cover the cost of Full Pouch. Variant Multiclassing (Cleric) would get you Channel Energy (at 7th). As a consequence, anything that gets the necessary spells on-list can do it if those are permitted.

[EldritchWeaver]

Let's see... poking around for other routes... can we get all of this on a single-classed full caster?

... probably.

There's a third party feat to get a ki pool: Ki Meditation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/legendary-games/ki-feats/ki-meditation-ki/), which explicitly qualifies you for Extra Ki (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-ki/) to get to a pool size of 3. You obviously also want Eschew Materials (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eschew-materials-final/) to cover the cost of Full Pouch. Variant Multiclassing (Cleric) would get you Channel Energy (at 7th). As a consequence, anything that gets the necessary spells on-list can do it if those are permitted.

I ignored it Ki Meditation, because it is 3PP. I could argue on the grounds that monk VMC also only provides me just one feat I actually need and cut out the rest. OTOH, being able to replenish spell slots is very powerful already, so it's maybe too much. But at least 1PP already allows me to everything, so this isn't breaking a new ground. Regarding Extra Ki, I do not see a limitation of the maximum ki pool size. Just that it resets to merely 1 point after rest. I missed the material costs, but instead Eschew Materials, False Focus seems more interesting.

P.S: I did forget to mention, that the original build also uses a Phylactery of Positive Channeling to increase the number of channel dice by 2d6.