Vow of Peace & indirect damage

[Malapterus]

Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.

3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.

4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.

5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.

6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?

9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.

10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.

[Malimar]

The usual answer for the Vows applies: Exalted is held to a higher standard than mere Good. It's a violation of your vow to try to use technicalities to weasel your way out of a violation.

That said, grease and wall of stone are probably safe. Failing to prevent damage to an enemy is probably fine; failing to prevent damage to an ally or an innocent isn't a violation of Vow of Peace in particular but probably is a violation of Exalted status. Everything else on your list is probably no good.

[Venger]

Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.

3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.

4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.

5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.

6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?

9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.

10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.
1 no

2 no

3 verboten. summon monster is a spell. using it to damage living creatures isn't allowed

4 no as long as you don't actively attack with it, no. (for other posters, he's warforged, so he's not buying armor and violating the vow)

5 no, as long as you don't waddle over to enemies to deal damage. that'd be using a spell to deal damage. if they close the gap with you, you're fine

6 no

7 no, you didn't force them to walk into that area or move around. unlike similar spells, it doesn't damage people who're in the area, so you can cast it around creatures if you want. if they move, you didn't force them to do that

8 no

9 no. traps are neither spells nor weapons, and you aren't dealing the damage. I don't know how you'd craft one without wealth though since I know you also have vow of poverty

10 no

The usual answer for the Vows applies: Exalted is held to a higher standard than mere Good. It's a violation of your vow to try to use technicalities to weasel your way out of a violation.

No it's not. The things that are violations of your vows are spelled out in the rules text.

[Malapterus]

9 no. traps are neither spells nor weapons, and you aren't dealing the damage. I don't know how you'd craft one without wealth though since I know you also have vow of poverty

The real danger is the inescapable guilt.

(Book of Exalted Deeds page 35)

[Kelb_Panthera]

1 probably not. A very strict DM could interpret that he would not have been hurt if not for your spell but it strikes me as a stretch. You're definitely in the clear if you warn him that you have the spell in place.

2 definitely yes. You conjured them, you're responsible. Stick to things you can talk to and instruct them to fight non-lethally.

3 Absolutely yes. As above, stick to things you can instruct to use non-lethal force.

4 . Yes. They don't do damage passively. You have to actively stab him with them or they're merely decorative. Go for net cutters from RotW instead.

5. Maybe. It's plainly visible and the consequences are obvious but, like spell turning, there would be no harm done if you hadn't cast the spell. Non-lethal substitution clears this right up for a single feat.

6. Unless you deliberately place the grease such as to force them into a damaging obstacle, no. Grease is not inherently damaging in itself.

7. As fire shield and spell turning; A DM could rule either way but the non-lethal sub feat makes it plainly kosher.

8. As long as you anchored it, you're not responsible for other characters being idiots.

9. You set a lethal-damage trap with the intent of it harming someone. What do you think?

10. Alignment on the whole can only work with inaction and taking responsibility for others in -very- specific circumstances. I would say no -most- of the time. It is something you should be -trying- to avoid but I wouldn't expect you to blow cover on a stealth mission, for example.

Remember that taking any of the vows represents a deep, spiritual conviction. You've sworn off doing harm because you find doing harm abhorrent. That's part of why you ask your allies to avoid doing any more than necessary.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.

3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.

4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.

5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.

6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?

9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.

10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.

1) That is not a violation.
2) This is a violation. Your spell dealt lethal damage to an enemy.
3) This is a violation. Your spell dealt lethal damage to an enemy.
4) RAW yes (ish), but equipping yourself with an item whose sole and explicit function is to inflict harm clearmy violates the spirit of the vow, especially since you are only getting away with it because an item whose function is to be used as a weapon was not listed as such in a metagame object. Unless you serve the LG God of Lawyers and Technicalities (or are a cleric of your DM) expect to lose your feat.
5) This is a violation. Your spell dealt lethal damage to the enemy. Note that the Non lethal Substitution can help.
6) This is not a violation.
7) This is a violation. Your spell dealt lethal damage to the enemy. Note that the No lethal substitution feat will not render this as a non-violation.
8) Dubious. Your spell's effect has ended entirely but it's consequence was ultimately involved in someone taking lethal damage.
9) This is a violation. Darts are weapons and you set them up specifically to harm people.
10) RAW this is not a violation but could be a violation of the spirit of the vow. Talk with your DM.

It is important to note that these feats were designed to represent a tremendous devotion to a higher cause as well as try to grant the players tools to compensate for the loss of basic assumptions in the game. I would not try to manipulate them for power. You can get more power more easily. If you want to use it and understand this talk with your DM to get their input so you know exactly where you stand.

[Malapterus]

Notes:

For #4 I was, for some reason, thinking armor spikes come into play when someone grapples you.

Also, I'm not trying to weasel around the rules, just get an idea of what crosses the line and does not.

[heavyfuel]

The feat says "you must not cause harm". It even says that accidentally eating a small insect breaks the vow. Note that it doesn't say "cause damage", but "cause harm".

Since you're apparently looking for a RAI answer and not a RAW one, I'd say that only 8 is ok. All others cause harm, even if indirectly.

[King of Nowhere]

Of course all of them are subject to specific interpretations, but here's my take. Unlike most posters before me, I'd go further and say that most of those things actually depend on your actual intentions.


Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.

3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.

4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.

5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.

6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?

9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.

10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.

1) depends on the intention: if you cast spell turning to protect yourself from spells, and it is triggered in a way that deals damage, then you're probably clear. If you set it up as a trap to lure someone into casting a lethal spell at you, then it's definitely a violation. If you advertise it (consider painting "I have spell turning activated" on your armor) and you are not trying some psycological game to lure opponents, you are definitely fine.

2) yes, it's a violation. You summmon dangerous monsters at your command, you are responsible for what they do. If you cannot command them, then you are responsible for summoning lethal creatures without a way to contain them. You can only get away with it if it happens totally by accident without your intention.

3) violation. As 2, but worse.

4) spikes are well visible. if you are merely using them as passive defence and deterrence, then I'd say you're fine.

5) as 4. Only ok if you only use it for deterrence.

6) sustaining lethal injury for slipping is extremely unlikely. You are trying to not hurt people, and you are putting alot of effort into figthing non-lethally against someone who has no such compunctions. You should be given at least some leeway. So I'd say you're fine there, unless you are specifically setting up a situation to hurt people (like grease on a slope ending in a pit trap).

7) probably yes. sure, it is visible, but you are doing it to deny usse of some terrain to the enemy. the difference with 4-5 is that those only deal damage if the enemy is directly attacking you, who are peaceful; this deals damage even on other times, though.

8) If you wear a belt, and somebody strangles itself with it without your intervention, you cannot be held responsible. You are not responsible for people engaging in autolesionistic acts with perfectly safe stuff you summon, so this is perfectly ok.

9) You set up a damaging trap with the intent of dealing damage. You're clearly violating your oath here.

10) depends entirely on specific situation.


The feat says "you must not cause harm". It even says that accidentally eating a small insect breaks the vow. Note that it doesn't say "cause damage", but "cause harm".


the feat doesn't say that. It says that many people who took the vow do that, not that you are required. It's actually impossible to never kill any insect (they are small, you're going to step on one eventuallly; and some will crawl in your mouth during your sleep, and you'll swallow them without noticing).

[Vertharrad]

Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.

3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.

4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.

5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.

6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?

9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.

10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.

1) I would say no, but if you cast the spell intending to turn offensive or lethal spells then yes.
2) yes, you summoned the creature you take responsibility for any actions it takes.
3) yes, you summoned the creature you take responsibility for any actions it takes.
4) intention to intimidate or cause harm; intimidate violates the spirit(if your not in it for the spirit and letter why are you exalted), causing harm definitely a yes.
5) yes, intent to do harm; there are plenty of defense spells that do not do harm to others.
6) I want to say yes because if your placing it to make people slip and hurt themselves it should violate the spirit; however if non-;ethal damage I say it gets a pass.
7) yes, intent to do harm; non-lethal feat might get a pass for this purpose.
8) no, fools will be fools; if you knock it down on them then yes(that is definitely intent to do harm).
9) yes, intent to do harm.
10) I would say no, refer back to fools will be fools.

[Arcanist]

[snip]


Yes. You could have just as easily used Dispel Magic to counterspell it, that way no one would have been hurt.
No, however I would classify them as an "ally" and make them feel an exceptional amount of guilt over their actions.
Yes, absolutely yes. They are 100% your subordinate and are more or less forced to do what you want them to do. By that sense, they are an extension of you and your actions.
Yes, but mostly because this is just trying to weasel your way around your vow. Granted, you can always make them Merciful Armor spikes or take Subduing Strike to make this a non-issue.
Yes, for the same reason as before. Take Nonlethal Substitution. I generally house rule to make it just apply to any damaging spell because it is a sense ridiculous in my opinion otherwise.
No, you're not harming anything besides their ego (which is mostly what being Good is all about).
No, If anything, I'd give it a penalty and make it the guiltiest bush in the world.
No, that is their fault plain and simple.
Yes. I'd suggest you make it a Merciful Drow Poison tipped dart. Subdual damage, and it harmlessly knocks them out.
Depends. Did one of your allies do it and you did nothing to try and stop them? Yes, that guy is feeling guilty over it. Completely avoidable on the victims part (like running into a stone wall)? No. You can't really prevent that.


I'm a bit strict with my interpretation of "Waging Peace", but generally I don't really like the view that inaction, or the inability to take action, is somehow your fault personally. Sometimes you're just put into a bad situation and can't really do anything and for those impossible choices you shouldn't really be penalized or punished.

[Doctor Awkward]

Give me your opinion on whether these things would violate the Vow of Peace:

1: Spell Turning. I didn't cast that Fireball, I just bounced it back at the guy who did!

Yes.

You may not deal real damage or ability damage to
such creatures through spells or weapons, though you may deal
nonlethal damage.
By reflecting a spell back at the caster, you have dealt real damage to another creature "through a spell you cast"


2: Summoned monster attacks on its own. Kind of an 'insect swarm' sort of thing where yeah, I summoned it, but I didn't tell it to hurt anyone.
Yes.
If you summon something that deals real damage or ability damage, then damage has been dealt "through a spell you cast".


3: Summoned monster attacks on my order. I mean, I personally didn't deal any damage, though it happened because of my will.
Yes.
If you summon something that deals real damage or ability damage, then damage has been dealt "through a spell you cast".


4: Spiked armor! It is 100% not my fault that you jumped on my spikes.
Yes.
Armor spikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorSpikes) "count as a martial weapon." You may not deal real damage through weapons.


5: Fire Shield & similar spells. Potentially a little different than spiked armor, depending on your point of view.
You. May. Not. Deal. Real. Damage. Through. Spells. You. Cast.
Full. Stop.


6: Grease! If I slick up the ground and you fall & take a point of bludgeoning to your butt-bone is that a violation of my nonviolence? Is the kid from Home Alone evil??

There are no rules for taking damage through falling prone.
The fact that Kevin McAllister is a sociopath and that the Home Alone movies run on Looney Toons logic does not really relate to the rules of D&D or the Vow of Peace feat in particular.


7: Spike Growth spell - this one is a little more questionable in my opinion because anyone entering the spiked area is pretty much guaranteed to take painful damage, as opposed to some chance they'll slip for a comical injury - but at the same time, they have the option of just not going in there.

Yes.
You may not deal real damage through spells you cast.


8: While we're at it, what if I cast Wall of Stone and some idiot hurts himself running into it?
I'm not aware of rules for self-inflicted damage through walking into walls.


9: A bandit opens my booby-trapped chest and activates the +2 Nipple-Seeking Shocking Darts I left in there.
You may not deal real damage through weapons either. If you set such a trap, and someone springs it. You have dealt real damage.
I'd recommend against setting such a trap.


10: I do nothing and allow an injury which I could have made a valid attempt to prevent.
Is it an injury caused by a weapon you wielded or a spell you cast?

If so, yes. If not, no.

[heavyfuel]

the feat doesn't say that. It says that many people who took the vow do that, not that you are required. It's actually impossible to never kill any insect (they are small, you're going to step on one eventuallly; and some will crawl in your mouth during your sleep, and you'll swallow them without noticing).

It most certainly does. Drinking/eating an insect is causing harm to a creature, and that breaks the vow. That might make the feat RAW dysfunctional but, regardless of RAW, my point is that many people go to extreme length have to not break the vow because that's just how Exalted characters have to act.

They have to go above and beyond to make sure they don't break their vows because these vows are so restrictive. If any slip makes you lose a feat, you have to be extremely careful.

[theblasblas]

I'm not aware of rules for self-inflicted damage through walking into walls.




What about say, you summon it there and one of your allies with the Dungeon Crasher variant feat bull rushes an enemy into it for damage?

Or if instead it's a Wall of Iron and it topples over dealing damage to someone without you acting on it?

[heavyfuel]

There are no rules for taking damage through falling prone.

Not related to the Grease spell, but tripping a rider forces a DC 15 Ride check or they take 1d6 points of falling damage. You can also trip winged flyers and they fall (and take falling damage) if they don't maintain their minimum forward speed.

[Arcanist]

the feat doesn't say that. It says that many people who took the vow do that, not that you are required. It's actually impossible to never kill any insect (they are small, you're going to step on one eventuallly; and some will crawl in your mouth during your sleep, and you'll swallow them without noticing).

The feat does not say that, however the section "Waging Peace" more or less uses it as an example of what might be the smallest thing that can break a Vow of Peace, however it goes on to say:


The DM should never set out to punish a character for taking the Vow of Peace feat. For the DM to pronounce one session, “A gnat got through the strainer in your drinking water this morning, you swallowed it, and now you need an atonement,” is simply capricious and unnecessarily antagonistic to the player.

Simply put, the DM can throw whatever reason they want at you, however stupid or unfair it might feel and have it break your vow. This does not break any rules of the game, nor violate any functions of the feats, but is just outright antagonistic for no other reason than to be antagonistic towards the player. If you as a DM feel the need to aggressively harass your player for wanting to play a pacifist character, maybe pull them aside and say "Hey, that type of character isn't really good for this type of game, maybe pick different feats instead?", or better yet just not allowing the BoED.