PDA

View Full Version : Lockpicking Skill: Useless?



BlizzardSucks80
2018-05-26, 04:49 AM
I have played in many D&D games and other systems over the years. Never have I ever seen the Lockpicking skill come up that much or even be necessary when you think it would be.
Playing at the table is a lot different from playing video games like the Elder Scrolls. I mean, in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. the Lockpicking skill does come up quite a bit and is important if you want to get all that sweet loot or break into people's houses. And you want to know why? Because containers and doors in those games are indestructible or simply can't be attacked.


In D&D, whenever a locked door or container comes up, the first response is just to have Buff McMuscles Dude smash it. He might have to roll 7000 Strength checks to get there, but eventually it gets done, and then you have your loot or be able to progress to the next room. Meanwhile the Rogue is sitting there with her arms crossed and a chip on her shoulder.
And what's worse? Mages, man. Friggin'...mages. Some of them can cast spells that make that whole Unlocking minigame pointless.

And if worse comes to worse, and Buff McMuscles sprains his Mighty Biceps or something, or Mage Man runs out of spells, there's always a key. The GM may not hand you the key freely all the time, but that GM is a dum dum if he keeps it away from the players intentionally. Even if you have to fight, or sneak around, or do some puzzles, you can still get that key.


The point I'm trying to make here is, since there is already so many ways to deal with a locked door or chest, why bother even having a Lockpicking skill at all? You can always just say, "Yeah, my character is or was a thief at some point so he knows how to pick locks just fine. Alls he needs is a bit of alone time with that sweet sweet lock. *wink*"


I had designed a system recently and in its 1st version there was a Lockpicking skill. But after playtesting it enough I realized that skill was unnecessary, so I took it out.

What do you guys think?

OldTrees1
2018-05-26, 04:59 AM
Does noise matter? Strong guy and magic guy are loud.
Does time matter? Strong guy will take time and sometimes even the magic guy is too slow (see any lock in a death trap).
Does resource management matter? Magic guy expends resources.
Does breaking in vs using the key matter? Strong guy and magic guy fail this riddle when present.
Does the trap matter? Strong guy and magic guy spring the trap.

I use a Mechanism skill to represent Locks, Traps, and other Mechanisms.

LibraryOgre
2018-05-26, 09:14 AM
Does noise matter? Strong guy and magic guy are loud.
Does time matter? Strong guy will take time and sometimes even the magic guy is too slow (see any lock in a death trap).
Does resource management matter? Magic guy expends resources.
Does breaking in vs using the key matter? Strong guy and magic guy fail this riddle when present.
Does the trap matter? Strong guy and magic guy spring the trap.

I use a Mechanism skill to represent Locks, Traps, and other Mechanisms.

Very much this. AD&D, especially 1e, derived a good chunk of your XP from treasure, to the point where you frequently wanted to sneak in, steal everything, and leave, since that maximized your XP to lost HP. Bashing open a chest or door made noise, and made it more likely that dungeon denizens would come to investigate... either drawn off set encounters or pulled off the random encounter chart.

Mastikator
2018-05-26, 09:23 AM
One game I played did well to roll lockpicking, pickpocketing, finding hidden stuff and even sneak attacks and all general thief/rogue/bandit stuff into a single skill sort of called "Secrecy" (doesn't translate well). Thieves just put points into this skill and if lockpicking never came up then that was fine because the skill was also used to sneaking around or pickpocketing or something else that did come up a lot.

This was in a game with fewer supernatural elements and the ones that were in were less fantastical so a warrior would be unlikely to have super human strength (but of course a horse does have super human strength and a roles are easy to come by so...)

Koo Rehtorb
2018-05-26, 09:51 AM
In no roleplaying game ever should the result of a failed test be "nothing happens, try again". On a fighter failing to smash down a door the kindest thing I would possibly say would be "the door is too strong for you to break down, try something else". And most likely it would be something a lot worse than that.

Morty
2018-05-26, 10:17 AM
A locked door isn't a challenge to a group of adventurers. Opening it quickly, quietly or in such a way that no one knows it happened might be, though. But a locked door in itself is just a thin barrier. Treating rogues as "the locks and traps guys/gals" is a problem on its own.

Thrudd
2018-05-26, 12:03 PM
If you are going to use skills and rolls for lock picking, breaking stuff, finding stuff, etc., then the game and GM should enforce the results of failing the rolls. If you fail a lock pick, the lock doesn't get opened, they'll need to think of something, else. If the strength test to break the door fails, then the door doesn't break, period. Think of something else. If you allow repeated checks until something succeeds, you might as well not have a check. So as a GM or game designer you need to consider the circumstances in the game where different mechanics will be used and what it is exactly the rolls are meant to determine.

If you are going to allow success no matter what, and the consequences only involve time spent and/or noise made, then just have the roll determine how long it takes or how noisy it gets rather than whether or not the lock is picked or door is broken. Of course, this means the game needs to have real consequences for time spent and noise made, or else determining that is pointless, too.

If some mechanic seems pointless in your game, that either means you shouldn't be using it or you are not playing the game properly.

Knightofvictory
2018-05-26, 12:32 PM
I've played a few games in my time with rogue players, and I can't imagine the game without lockpicking, or at least a 'thievery' skill. Lockpicking seems to come up more in "city" based games, where you want to sneak into a backroom while no one is looking, or break into a house without alerting the city watch. Most casters I know don't want to prepare a precious spell to do what the rogue can do anyway. Also, some editions specify that Knock spells make a loud knocking sound when you cast it.

Even in dungeons, I've played with several DMs that roll a percentile dice to see if you accidentally break fragile loot (wands, scrolls, jewelry) when forcibly smashing a treasure chest.

Deophaun
2018-05-26, 12:47 PM
For D&D, PF rolled Open Lock into Disable Device. 4th rolled it into Thievery. 5th made it a plain Dex check. As editions rolled on it became clear that devoting resources solely to lockpicking was a sucker's game. So while lockpicking itself may not be useless, it's recognized that the opportunity cost made specializing in it not worthwhile.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-26, 01:59 PM
The skill is not useless, of course, but it really depends on the type of gameplay.

If your playing a all combat smash and loot type game, then picking locks and just about all non combat skills won't even come up. There are other types of games.

And it's true of all feats, skills and even rules: they really are only useful if your game play style uses them in the first place.

You just need to find the right game style.

Nifft
2018-05-26, 02:08 PM
One game I played did well to roll lockpicking, pickpocketing, finding hidden stuff and even sneak attacks and all general thief/rogue/bandit stuff into a single skill sort of called "Secrecy" (doesn't translate well). Exalted used the word Larceny as the skill umbrella for that type of stuff.



5th made it a plain Dex check.

Actually 5e has it hidden in a tool proficiency, which costs the same as any skill proficiency, and as a Rogue you can take Expertise in that proficiency.

So in 5e D&D it's still the same pay-a-whole-skill game for that competency.

Mastikator
2018-05-26, 02:18 PM
Exalted used the word Larceny as the skill umbrella for that type of stuff.
YES larceny!
The system wasn't exalted, but I have seen this in exalted and I was impressed with this decision.

Unless you're playing a heist game where everyone is a thief and everyone is highly specialized in one area of larceny it just makes sense to roll these up into one skill.

Thrawn4
2018-05-26, 03:47 PM
Once again I laugh at the mess that is D&D...
Anyway, in all the RPGs I have played over the years, lockpicking has never been useless, quite the contrary, because usually magic is rare/expensive and fighters rarely have superhuman strength.
Isn't that the reason why there are tiers in D&D? I mean, it's not official, but it is a widely recognized issue, isn't it?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-26, 04:53 PM
Actually 5e has it hidden in a tool proficiency, which costs the same as any skill proficiency, and as a Rogue you can take Expertise in that proficiency.

So in 5e D&D it's still the same pay-a-whole-skill game for that competency.

Except that

a) rogues get proficiency in Thieves Tools for free
b) anyone else can get it for free from a background
c) other than that, you have to use the downtime training rules to get it. You can't buy it with a skill proficiency at character creation.

Oddly enough, it's also the only "normal" check that both requires proficiency and requires having a toolkit on hand. It's exactly the same as the other tool proficiencies, but it comes up much more frequently IME.

Avigor
2018-05-26, 05:47 PM
Another question worth considering is whether not picking a chest might break the contents. How do you know it's not filled with potions bottles that'll shatter if you smash the top in? What if the lock mechanism or hinges have some alchemical or magical contingency installed so they explode if they are broken or exposed to magic (at least more than a detection)?

Doors could also trigger a trap if not opened properly.

Ultimately it depends on the DM, but yeah there are other considerations.

Deophaun
2018-05-26, 06:17 PM
Anyway, in all the RPGs I have played over the years, lockpicking has never been useless, quite the contrary, because usually magic is rare/expensive and fighters rarely have superhuman strength.
You don't need superhuman strength. Doors can be kicked in or just sworded to death. Depending on your setting, a gun is perfectly capable of disabling a lock. Padlocks come off with bolt cutters or a pair of wrenches.

It's really only in safe-cracking that you need either lots of skill or really expensive and hard to move equipment. Regular locks are nothing more than speedbumps.

Another question worth considering is whether not picking a chest might break the contents. How do you know it's not filled with potions bottles that'll shatter if you smash the top in? What if the lock mechanism or hinges have some alchemical or magical contingency installed so they explode if they are broken or exposed to magic (at least more than a detection)?
While fine for game purposes, these kinds of defenses--like traps--rarely make practical sense. It's just strange to protect your physical treasures by having something nearby that can accidentally destroy them. Now, if you wanted to guard, say, the plans to your super secret doomsday weapon, having a contingency that will destroy them to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands makes sense, as a security breach there puts that super secret doomsday weapon at risk.

Potions, though? Destroying them doesn't protect you from anything. You're just spending money to spite thieves while also risking it going off accidentally whenever you try to retrieve one.

jindra34
2018-05-26, 07:31 PM
While fine for game purposes, these kinds of defenses--like traps--rarely make practical sense. It's just strange to protect your physical treasures by having something nearby that can accidentally destroy them. Now, if you wanted to guard, say, the plans to your super secret doomsday weapon, having a contingency that will destroy them to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands makes sense, as a security breach there puts that super secret doomsday weapon at risk.

Potions, though? Destroying them doesn't protect you from anything. You're just spending money to spite thieves while also risking it going off accidentally whenever you try to retrieve one.

I think my preferred security for these kinds of things is just to have the box, on being tampered with, teleport somewhere else. Or at least teleport its contents elsewhere. Then again thats kinda the thing that marks the trap maker/owner as an archmage whom you may not want to anger anyway.

Nifft
2018-05-26, 07:34 PM
YES larceny!
The system wasn't exalted, but I have seen this in exalted and I was impressed with this decision.

Unless you're playing a heist game where everyone is a thief and everyone is highly specialized in one area of larceny it just makes sense to roll these up into one skill. Totally agree, Larceny as a skill is a great thing.

These days my preference is to have multiple overlapping skills -- so there might be Larceny and Investigation, and both would allow you to take the Case A Joint action to swiftly and inconspicuously scan an area -- but Investigation wouldn't help you stealth-infiltrate, and Larceny wouldn't help you do library research.

Similarly, I'm in favor of Athletics and Acrobatics both helping you balance and jump, but climbing a wall or lifting a grate would be Athletics, and tumbling would be Acrobatics. If there were a Mountaineering skill, that would work on climb checks, but not jumping or tumbling. It would also give you some Knowledge (geography) and Survival uses, and a few tricks from Use Rope.


(snip)

Okay, you're veering into unnecessary detail. My point was simple.

5e lock-picking is not just a Dex check.
- Lockpicking is a Dex check that can get (up to double) a tool proficiency.
- You can pay for that tool proficiency in a variety of ways, including taking a level of Rogue.

That's the primary error that I'm correcting.

Are we all clear on that?

Mr Blobby
2018-05-26, 07:55 PM
YES larceny!
The system wasn't exalted, but I have seen this in exalted and I was impressed with this decision.

Unless you're playing a heist game where everyone is a thief and everyone is highly specialized in one area of larceny it just makes sense to roll these up into one skill.

World of Darkness did this; converted 'Security' [3rd] to 'Larceny' [20th/4th]. Worked much better. And quit GM's arguing 'no, cracking keypads are Computer!' and the like.

dps
2018-05-26, 08:59 PM
The skill is not useless, of course, but it really depends on the type of gameplay.

If your playing a all combat smash and loot type game, then picking locks and just about all non combat skills won't even come up. There are other types of games.

And it's true of all feats, skills and even rules: they really are only useful if your game play style uses them in the first place.

You just need to find the right game style.

Yep, and again, this is something that probably should be discussed at least somewhat before or during character creation.

Deophaun
2018-05-26, 11:02 PM
And it's true of all feats, skills and even rules: they really are only useful if your game play style uses them in the first place.
There's no equality here: some things are used in more games than others.

Let's take 3.5's Open Lock skill with another thing that gets the job done: mountain hammer.


Need to open a locked chest? Both will do it.
Need to get through a locked door? Both will do it.
Need to get through a swollen door? Mountain hammer.
Need to get through a grate into a sewer? Mountain hammer.
Need to take out the wheel on a carrage that's about to escape? Mountain hammer.
Need to make an Intimidate check during a conference? Pound the table with your fist and mountain hammer.

Lockpicking is only useful if there is a lock present to be picked, and getting insanely good at lockpicking is only useful if the GM includes locks that need those insane skills, in which case he's probably only including them because you made an insanely good lockpicker. Mountain hammer, on the other hand, is useful as long as there are things. The DM generally doesn't have to spend any additional effort ensuring there are things. When you get really high level and are now capable of dealing hundreds of damage with mountain hammer or its higher level brethren, he doesn't have to make things specifically to show off how good you are at breaking things. The DM could literally place you in an empty room with no doors or windows, and you could still mountain hammer. Featureless plain? Mountain hammer a pit. You're now playing minecraft. If you somehow find yourself playing in a thing-free campaign, then you have bigger problems than mountain hammer being useless. Meanwhile, if a campaign has no locks, does anyone notice except the lockpicker?

LibraryOgre
2018-05-27, 08:15 AM
Operate with a modicum of stealth? Only lockpicking.
Preserve fragile contents inside? Only lockpicking.
Allow you to reuse the object in question? Only lockpicking.
Close an object so it's not easy to open again? Only lockpicking.

Mountain Hammer is a solution if you don't mind the problem of making a ton of noise, breaking everything, and not being able to reuse anything.

Deophaun
2018-05-27, 10:09 AM
Mountain Hammer is a solution if you don't mind the problem of making a ton of noise, breaking everything, and not being able to reuse anything.
And? It's still a solution as long as a thing exists. Lockpicking can only be a solution if a lock exists.

OldTrees1
2018-05-27, 11:04 AM
And? It's still a solution as long as a thing exists. Lockpicking can only be a solution if a lock exists.

Mark Hall's point was that Mountain Hammer requires more than just "a thing exists". It requires "a thing exists" AND "you don't care about the negative consequences of using Mountain Hammer". Mark Hall also described some of the negative consequences as they related to the locked barrier comparision vs lockpicking.

Adding one more to the pile:
Mountain Hammer is slow, even on an idiot crusader. Slow might be fast enough, but sometimes it is faster to just open the barrier rather than recharge Mountain Hammer multiple times.

So yes, Mountain Hammer is a very useful technique and does have some overlap with Lockpicking. Just like the strong guy, Mountain Hammer is not a universal replacement for Lockpicking. But even with these consequences that decrease the versatility of its usefulness, you are right that Mountain Hammer is a good counterexample to Darth Ultron's claim.

D+1
2018-05-27, 11:23 AM
I have played in many D&D games and other systems over the years. Never have I ever seen the Lockpicking skill come up that much or even be necessary when you think it would be.Seems strange. IME lockpicking has been a major deal ever since the thief class was introduced. It deserves all the derision people are giving it, but up to this point it's still been put front and center for opening doors, chests, cages, and on rare occasions some other peripheral use.

Playing at the table is a lot different from playing video games like the Elder Scrolls. I mean, in Skyrim, Oblivion, etc. the Lockpicking skill does come up quite a bit and is important if you want to get all that sweet loot or break into people's houses. And you want to know why? Because containers and doors in those games are indestructible or simply can't be attacked.And that lockpicking mini-game deserves all the derision it gets too. It's a distraction to occupy your time and a means to bleed off skill points. You get some reward for that skill expenditure and time in the game by gaining access to treasure and areas of dungeons you otherwise won't have, but how many people now just use mods to get around it entirely? It's not a part of the game that anybody confesses to ENJOY, it's a part of the game that people only TOLERATE at best because they want the added loot and access to otherwise sealed areas.


In D&D, whenever a locked door or container comes up, the first response is just to have Buff McMuscles Dude smash it. He might have to roll 7000 Strength checks to get there, but eventually it gets done, and then you have your loot or be able to progress to the next room. Meanwhile the Rogue is sitting there with her arms crossed and a chip on her shoulder.
And what's worse? Mages, man. Friggin'...mages. Some of them can cast spells that make that whole Unlocking minigame pointless.Mages are an issue because they gain the ability to invalidate ALL THE OTHER CLASSES special abilities, with the exception of healing (and recent editions take that from clerics and spread it to everyone - hell, I did it with house rules in my last 1E campaign). As for muscling open doors and chests, as suggested before, that is what was done prior to the introduction of thieves and their lockpicking ability.

If you want lockpicking to matter as an ability then it needs to be a BETTER solution to opening things than muscle. Whether because it's actually faster, quieter, easier, less likely to damage loot, or whatever doesn't much matter. IF you're going to have it exist in the game as a thing, then the DM needs to take steps to ensure that it has MERIT as a thing. So if players are defaulting to muscle instead of LETTING the thief do the thief's JOB, there must be consequences. The noise of battering draws unneeded and unwanted attention. The rough treatment destroys fragile and valuable contents of chests. And of course, without letting the thief do the standard accompanying task of looking for traps then those deadly traps need to fall again, and again, and AGAIN on the dumb fighter who just wants to be, "Hulk SMASH!" all the time.


And if worse comes to worse, and Buff McMuscles sprains his Mighty Biceps or something, or Mage Man runs out of spells, there's always a key. The GM may not hand you the key freely all the time, but that GM is a dum dum if he keeps it away from the players intentionally. Even if you have to fight, or sneak around, or do some puzzles, you can still get that key.That, however, is not an invalidation of the thief/rogue ability - spending time and effort in finding keys and trap triggers is sensible play on the part of ALL PC's which avoids the consequences for failure that lockpicking/trapfinding still entails.


The point I'm trying to make here is, since there is already so many ways to deal with a locked door or chest, why bother even having a Lockpicking skill at all? You can always just say, "Yeah, my character is or was a thief at some point so he knows how to pick locks just fine. Alls he needs is a bit of alone time with that sweet sweet lock. *wink*"
All of this is stuff that I would characterize as part of the gameplay that could be filed under the umbrella heading of, "The Searching Game". Loot and clues are not just laying out in the open to be blundered over and mindlessly and effortlessly processed. Loot is made difficult for PC's to access by locking it up or hiding it. It's not enough to just kill the guards or owners of the treasure. It is intended as a significant part of gameplay to need to spend time, resources, and effort to get the best loot even after killing the opponents. Now, it doesn't have to always be so, but IMO the amount of effort expended should at least be commensurately rewarded - if players and their PC's are taking time to literally look under every rock then either they're insane or that persistence and thoroughness is intended to pay off at some point. Maybe not in every dungeon room, but sometime, somewhere, there is bound to be treasure of sufficient compensatory value hidden under floor tiles.

If the Search Game is not something that interests you in any way as a DM and you don't want the players to ever even bother with it, by all means, remove all the skills and abilities that make it a thing and just HAND the PC's the loot and the clues that otherwise would require more effort to obtain. I have certainly in the past called into question the occasionally outrageous lengths to which modules and DM's have gone to hide treasure (and then often not have the treasure be at all worth the Herculean effort of the search to get it). Things CAN be done to make the Search Game a more interesting or at least more tolerable process. Much depends on what kind of game you're looking to run, and what the players want out of the game (keeping in mind that wanting is sometimes better than having - not logical but often true).

Deophaun
2018-05-27, 11:48 AM
Mark Hall's point was that Mountain Hammer requires more than just "a thing exists". It requires "a thing exists" AND "you don't care about the negative consequences of using Mountain Hammer". Mark Hall also described some of the negative consequences as they related to the locked barrier comparision vs lockpicking.
I can control what I care about. I cannot control what the DM includes in the campaign. As that explanation continues to have no relation to the point that Mark Hall responded to, I will repeat my question: And?

To elaborate further: A Warblade gets mountain hammer at the same level that a Cleric gets silence. Since mountain hammer is always an option, the trick becomes turning it into a good option. That trick is in the hands of the player. You can absolutely use mountain hammer when you need to be stealthy. Now try using lockpicking when you have no locks.

Jay R
2018-05-27, 12:38 PM
Like most skills, its value is dependent on the GM.

If your GM never uses locks in places you need to be quiet, or on doors you will want to close, or to protect things that will be destroyed when the lock is, then, yes, lockpicking skill is useless.

Similarly, swimming skill is useless if you never go near lakes, rivers , or oceans.
Diplomacy and Bluff skills are useless if all the encounters are beasts or undead that don't talk.
Use Magic Device skill is useless if you never find magic devices that you can't already use.
Ride and Handle Animal skills are useless when there are no animals.

Virtually all skills are useless except in the right situation. If the right situation never comes up, then they remain useless. But don't blame the skill.

Slipperychicken
2018-05-27, 01:13 PM
In shadowrun, getting through buildings, barriers, and containers without making too much noise is quite useful. Though the lockpicking skill itself is basically useless (you'll basically never run into an old-fashioned lock and key that you can't simply kick down), the equivalents for opening electronically locked doors are important.

Whyrocknodie
2018-05-27, 03:06 PM
It's very useful when you have to pick a lock. Maybe also if you're giving a lecture on how to pick locks. If you're not doing that, then it's much less useful. Rarely comes up in trifle-making, for example.

Nifft
2018-05-27, 03:23 PM
It's very useful when you have to pick a lock. Maybe also if you're giving a lecture on how to pick locks. If you're not doing that, then it's much less useful. Rarely comes up in trifle-making, for example.

"Oh no, my trifle cookbook is in that locked cabinet over there!"

RazorChain
2018-05-27, 03:25 PM
When you have 3 skills + a toolskill and are incapable of learning anything again, like ever, then I understand your frustration


But in other systems where you might have dozens of skills then a lockpicking skill might be a drop in the ocean.

In a campaign I'm running, lockpicking has been often crucial to get into places quietly, two PC's have pick locks and they have invested like 0.60% of their current character point total in picking locks.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-27, 05:05 PM
There's no equality here: some things are used in more games than others.


Yes, you can ''Hulk Smash'' your way through a ''Hulk Smash'' type game. This works great for a Murderhobo Smash game.

Now the game can be a very, very, very narrow focused mini campaign where only one thing ever happens, like say a Stealth Game. So this game is pure Stealth and very little of anything else. But a more normal general game can be Anything at Anytime. Like a game might have a plot about a king, and as a tiny part of that plot the characters might need to get past a lock without the ''Hulk Smash" spotlight.


You can absolutely use mountain hammer when you need to be stealthy. Now try using lockpicking when you have no locks.

So is your point that Magic is better then Mundane? Like sure, you can use Telekinesis to do like billions of things, but the skill lock picking can only be used to pick a lock.

Deophaun
2018-05-27, 08:38 PM
Yes, you can ''Hulk Smash'' your way through a ''Hulk Smash'' type game. This works great for a Murderhobo Smash game.
And you can Hulk Smash your way through a social game or a stealth game. It's all a matter of how creative you are.

So is your point that Magic is better then Mundane?
No. My point is that there are skills/feats/abilities that rely entirely on the DM to include things that only exist to make that skill useful, and there are skills/feats/abilities that rely on player ingenuity to apply them effectively to any given situation. And then, and here's the thing that will blow your mind, there is an entire spectrum in-between these that makes saying "everything relies on the DM" to be an utterly embarrassing amount of horse manure.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-27, 11:16 PM
And you can Hulk Smash your way through a social game or a stealth game. It's all a matter of how creative you are.

Sounds to me like your talking more like just being a Jerk Player.

Like the other normal players Role Play meeting and NPc and talking to them, the the Jerk Player is just like ''Hulk Smash" and kills all the NPCs....wow, that is really creative.



No. My point is that there are skills/feats/abilities that rely entirely on the DM to include things that only exist to make that skill useful, and there are skills/feats/abilities that rely on player ingenuity to apply them effectively to any given situation. And then, and here's the thing that will blow your mind, there is an entire spectrum in-between these that makes saying "everything relies on the DM" to be an utterly embarrassing amount of horse manure.

This is true of everything in the game though. No player can use their characters special thing unless the DM sets it up before hand.

And a DM, even using the Almighty Rules, can stop a player from using even a 'super duper' maneuver or anything else.

You can no more pick a lock unless there is a lock to pick, then you can Jerk Hulk Smash something, unless there is something to smash.

Mr Beer
2018-05-27, 11:23 PM
This thread provides a compelling argument that Lockpicking skill is useless for campaigns in which Lockpicking skill is useless.

Deophaun
2018-05-28, 12:08 AM
Sounds to me like your talking more like just being a Jerk Player.

Like the other normal players Role Play meeting and NPc and talking to them, the the Jerk Player is just like ''Hulk Smash" and kills all the NPCs....wow, that is really creative.
I already provided an example of using it for social interaction that does not involve killing anyone. Try again.

This is true of everything in the game though. No player can use their characters special thing unless the DM sets it up before hand.
And as I already stated, if you're playing in a game that doesn't have things, you have bigger problems than not being able to use mountain hammer.

You can no more pick a lock unless there is a lock to pick, then you can Jerk Hulk Smash something, unless there is something to smash.
you might want to eliminate "jerk" from your vocabulary: it will require to actually engage with other people's positions.

Avigor
2018-05-28, 12:30 AM
You don't need superhuman strength. Doors can be kicked in or just sworded to death. Depending on your setting, a gun is perfectly capable of disabling a lock. Padlocks come off with bolt cutters or a pair of wrenches.

It's really only in safe-cracking that you need either lots of skill or really expensive and hard to move equipment. Regular locks are nothing more than speedbumps.

While fine for game purposes, these kinds of defenses--like traps--rarely make practical sense. It's just strange to protect your physical treasures by having something nearby that can accidentally destroy them. Now, if you wanted to guard, say, the plans to your super secret doomsday weapon, having a contingency that will destroy them to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands makes sense, as a security breach there puts that super secret doomsday weapon at risk.

Potions, though? Destroying them doesn't protect you from anything. You're just spending money to spite thieves while also risking it going off accidentally whenever you try to retrieve one.

The first, chest with potion contents comment was referring to what could happen if you smashed the lid of a wooden chest, and the contents were fragile, using potions as an example. You could easily accidentally break the vials without intending to. I've seen at least one or two video games (at least one of the KOTOR games, iirc) that give you less loot if you smashed a container than if you picked it or found a key, and it makes perfect sense that DM could rule that something similar may occur in his game from time to time depending on how you are breaking the chest open and what the contents are. It wasn't meant to be combined with the 2nd comment, about self-destructing the contents.

On the other topic, that of self-destructing contents, paranoia can make someone do strange things; a true paranoiac would probably argue something like: you don't want someone to use your own Potion of Storm Giant Strength to smash your Shield Guardian and cut off your head, do you?

Darth Ultron
2018-05-28, 12:41 AM
I already provided an example of using it for social interaction that does not involve killing anyone. Try again.

Eh, I made my point that just screaming ''mountain hammer'' is not great gaming.



And as I already stated, if you're playing in a game that doesn't have things, you have bigger problems than not being able to use mountain hammer.

It is hard for some people to grasp the concept of Role Playing, I under stand.



you might want to eliminate "jerk" from your vocabulary: it will require to actually engage with other people's positions.

I think ''hulk smash'' players are jerks(and worse). They are one of the types of players that I'll kill thier character off quickly and have them leave the game, never to return. And I don't have a problem with that at all.

Jerrykhor
2018-05-28, 12:44 AM
Just because you can do A or B or C to solve a problem, doesn't mean that A is useless. If a problem only can be solved by one method, we have a word for that: Railroady.

Deophaun
2018-05-28, 12:58 AM
It wasn't meant to be combined with the 2nd comment, about self-destructing the contents.
In that case, paragraphs are your friend.

Although I still have problems visualizing little one ounce vials that risk breaking when the lid to their container is forced open yet conveniently never break when their owner is carrying them while getting tossed around by a dragon.

On the other topic, that of self-destructing contents, paranoia can make someone do strange things; a true paranoiac would probably argue something like: you don't want someone to use your own Potion of Storm Giant Strength to smash your Shield Guardian and cut off your head, do you?
At best, that gets you one chest before you break verisimilitude due to an epidemic of mental illness. Besides, do you think the organization's assassin is going to use your potion when he can just replace the chest with a mimic that will kill you next time you approach? You don't keep anything in a chest because that's where They have been training you to put your valuables, so They know how to get to you. You know why every chest has a lock? It's so They can have access. There's an entire locksmithing guild that literally holds the keys to everything, and They have the guild in Their pocket. Paranoid harder!

Deophaun
2018-05-28, 01:05 AM
Eh, I made my point that just screaming ''mountain hammer'' is not great gaming.
I see. Since no one here has said that it is, I take it that means you're just arguing with yourself. Fine. Enjoy that. Just please stop quoting me when your responses aren't to me.

Mordaedil
2018-05-28, 02:23 AM
Also, mountain hammer is a maneuver, not a spell, so not really magic triumphing over mundane, but neat sword trick beating out a skill.

Frozen_Feet
2018-05-28, 04:10 AM
As usual for these types of discussions, I see appalling lack of player self-direction.

If I happen to make a thief with locksmithing skills, I will actively seek and engineer situations where it is usefull. I don't just dumbly follow an unrelated activity and hope a game master has included a token obstacle for me to use the skill on.

For lockpicking in particular, it is not hard to find a target-rich environment: cities. Pretty much every house in a remotely wealthy place has a lock with something interesting behind it. And in a city, smashing stuff to pieces is not an equally good option. Because if you leave the locks and doors intact, you leave less evidence for your thievery, cause less noise and can benefit from them yourself. A locked door between you and the guards can keep you safe in ways a splintered door or a hole in the wall simply does not.

Sometimes magic can be as good, sometimes not. If it requires loud chanting of spells, is only usable twice a day, or costs hundreds of coins more than a set of picks, it's not an equal option either.

The chief reason traditional thief skills look useless, is because of thief tokenism. That is: no other "party member" is a thief, interested in thieving or even suitable for it. The group's main activity is something different. Buy because everyone read the Hobbit as kids, there's gotta be a thief, damn it! So one player is made to play a thief and tag along in wrong company, in the hope that they get to use their skills for something.

Manga Shoggoth
2018-05-28, 05:12 AM
Well, there's that old saw: When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Jay R
2018-05-28, 08:59 AM
One extra consideration:

A rogue who can pick locks can get into locked places when he's alone, and the paladin can't see what he's doing. This has significant value.

Whyrocknodie
2018-05-28, 09:51 AM
"Oh no, my trifle cookbook is in that locked cabinet over there!"

This occurs so frequently in our local campaigns that there is a specific skill "Trifle Liberation" which then has specialisations like "cabinet", "box" and of course "larger trifle". Even in those games where "lockpicking" has been retired.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-28, 10:49 AM
Also, mountain hammer is a maneuver, not a spell, so not really magic triumphing over mundane, but neat sword trick beating out a skill.

Except that the so called ''maneuvers'' are just spells. As someone just said ''lets make mundanes powerful by giving them spells'', and then someone said ''oh, wait, lets give them spells, but call them maneuvers and that will fool the simple gamers" and then the other guy said ''Brilliant!".

Just make the definition of ''spell'' like: An extraordinary ability.

Friv
2018-05-28, 11:51 AM
Oh, thank God, balance has been restored. I was about to be agreeing with Darth Ultron.

Anyway, Deophaun, the purpose of lockpicking is to give you a way of interacting with the setting that you do not otherwise have. It gives you the opportunity to gain access to places and objects, quickly, without others knowing that you're there. Yes, you can argue that it only comes up if the DM has allowed for locks in their setting, but this is generally true of all skills, especially D&D skills.

You can't use Diplomacy or Bluff if the campaign is nothing but hostile animals and undead. You can't use any Knowledge if the subject of that Knowledge never comes up. You can't use Jump if there's nothing interesting that can't easily be reached by ladders or walking. You can't Swim if there's no water. You can't Spot or Listen if everything comes up to you obviously and in plain sight. And so on, and so forth.

What a Skill lets you do is change how you approach challenges. Lockpicking allows you to approach challenges in a way that you can't with something like mountain hammer - stealthily. That's about it.

Now, if you want to complain that D&D includes spells that make certain skills less useful, or even useless, you're going to want to start a very different thread, because that's not a lock-picking based problem.

Morty
2018-05-28, 12:08 PM
There's a good reason many systems - including 4e D&D or arguably Pathfinder - fold lock-picking into a "security", "larceny", "sleight of hand", "thievery" or "mechanics" skill, that handles more than just lock-picking. D&D's mistake was to make it a separate skill, and to try and make it the rogue's "niche" somehow, even though it's a terrible niche for a class and there's no reason a fighter, wizard or ranger can't know how to pick locks.

Mordaedil
2018-05-29, 06:15 AM
Except that the so called ''maneuvers'' are just spells. As someone just said ''lets make mundanes powerful by giving them spells'', and then someone said ''oh, wait, lets give them spells, but call them maneuvers and that will fool the simple gamers" and then the other guy said ''Brilliant!".

Just make the definition of ''spell'' like: An extraordinary ability.

They are spells the same way a tomahawk missile is a nuclear bomb. They use similar mechanics, but if you actually observe the two in action, you'll notice they are completely different in how you deploy and use them.

Aetis
2018-05-29, 07:22 AM
Lockpicking skill is useful if you want to get past a lock without making it look like you got past a lock. (and you don't feel like burning a knock)

How likely this scenario may pop up in your scenario may vary.

awa
2018-05-29, 08:02 AM
the thing is some skills are more likely to come up than others which means there value varies.
A skill like tumble may go up every fight multiple times depending on the creatures build the same with stealth because the player controls them.

Other skills like spot/listen/awareness come up a lot because many monsters sneak

the problem with lock picking is that it is only helpful when you have both a lock and a reason to bypass it quietly. While its possible the party might encounter that a lot its not particularly likely.

Nifft
2018-05-29, 10:36 AM
Except that the so called ''maneuvers'' are just spells. Except they're not.


Just make the definition of ''spell'' like: An extraordinary ability. ... unless you change the definition of spells to include mundane abilities.

But that would be ridiculous.

Avigor
2018-05-29, 10:48 PM
In that case, paragraphs are your friend.

Sorry about that, didn't intend to make it difficult for you.


Although I still have problems visualizing little one ounce vials that risk breaking when the lid to their container is forced open yet conveniently never break when their owner is carrying them while getting tossed around by a dragon.

If you're using a crowbar to pry the lid up, cutting off the hinges, or otherwise showing common sense when doing so, yeah it won't damage the contents. But if someone smashes in the entire chest (My response to Mountain Hammer: What part of the chest are you targeting, and what's your attack roll? A bad answer or a poor roll could mean you just stabbed your sword hilt deep in the lid, skewering whatever is inside), or worse yet uses something like a fireball to access the contents, yes you can definitely break something.

As for potions and such not breaking when they're in your pack and you're thrown into a wall by a dragon or something similar, that's ultimately going to depend on the DM, at least until you get a bag of holding at which point I don't think it's possible to crush the contents of an extra-dimensional space. While there aren't RAW rules for breaking stuff in your backpack (at least not in any system I've seen), that doesn't mean a DM won't homebrew something, especially if the player doesn't have any sense at all if asked to describe how the contents of his pack are arranged (at least wrap your fragile things in a blanket!).

So yeah this argument mostly applies to those who lack sufficient common sense to have some basic level of care when forcing open a chest instead of picking it.


At best, that gets you one chest before you break verisimilitude due to an epidemic of mental illness. Besides, do you think the organization's assassin is going to use your potion when he can just replace the chest with a mimic that will kill you next time you approach? You don't keep anything in a chest because that's where They have been training you to put your valuables, so They know how to get to you. You know why every chest has a lock? It's so They can have access. There's an entire locksmithing guild that literally holds the keys to everything, and They have the guild in Their pocket. Paranoid harder!

Drat no wonder I'm not a level 20 Wizard yet! lol

Darth Ultron
2018-05-30, 12:12 AM
Except they're not.

... unless you change the definition of spells to include mundane abilities.

But that would be ridiculous.

There is no difference between ''mundane'' and ''magical'' in the game as they are both things ''normal people can't do. A single level in a Player Class makes that character super human.

''Maneuvers'' are just re fluffed spells, it's the number one thing that makes them so bad.

Nifft
2018-05-30, 12:33 AM
There is no difference between ''mundane'' and ''magical'' in the game as they are both things ''normal people can't do.

Therefore, you are claiming that the Weapon Specialization feat is a magical spell.

Your argument is bad.

John Campbell
2018-05-30, 01:28 AM
As for potions and such not breaking when they're in your pack and you're thrown into a wall by a dragon or something similar, that's ultimately going to depend on the DM, at least until you get a bag of holding at which point I don't think it's possible to crush the contents of an extra-dimensional space. While there aren't RAW rules for breaking stuff in your backpack (at least not in any system I've seen), that doesn't mean a DM won't homebrew something, especially if the player doesn't have any sense at all if asked to describe how the contents of his pack are arranged (at least wrap your fragile things in a blanket!).

AD&D actually had item saves for exactly this sort of thing. Get thrown against a wall? All your potions get to save vs. Crushing Blow!

LibraryOgre
2018-05-30, 10:12 AM
The Mod Wonder: The "are maneuvers equivalent to spells" discussion can happen elsewhere, don't you think?

***

So, years ago, I played in a Ninjas and Superspies game run by a good friend of mine, who happens to be a rocket scientist and former intelligence analyst for the CIA. He is also five years younger than me, and would make you feel totally inadequate as a human being if he wasn't so goddamn NICE and SUCH a ****ing geek, but I digress.

Anyway, we're playing Ninjas and Superspies. I make a highly skilled former intelligence operative who's gone into private security consulting. Another friend is playing a thief who spent a few years in a Chinese prison, and there's the obligatory former special forces trooper. We're looking into some UFO sightings, because someone with a lot of money is paying us to. In the entire game (several sessions long), I drew my weapon in earnest once, and we had precisely one combat... the two instances were not related. I drew my firearm because I was running down a hill towards a crashed UFO (and holstered it because it turned out to contain some Air Force crew members trying to pilot something that hadn't been adequately tested or understood). The one fight was because the ex-Spec Ops guy's player was "bored", so the GM had a gorram wolverine attack us while hiked the wilderness, looking for UFO evidence. The fight put the thief in the hospital for a few days (and boy, do they look at you funny when you pay cash for "my co-worker was attacked by a wolverine" because you don't have insurance), and I got to fight a wolverine hand-to-hand so I didn't accidentally shoot her.

You know what skill we could've really used in that game? Far more than WP Pistol, Rifle, Shotokan Karate, or fluiency Arabic? Lock-picking. Fortunately, we had a thief who was good at it, when she wasn't bleeding out because someone bored us into a wolverine attack.

awa
2018-05-30, 10:47 AM
that just tells us that skills should be weighted based on the type of game being run in a typical d&d game lock picking is of minimal value because theirs typically at least one guy in heavy armor who renders all stealth pointless and combat is of high value because that is what d&d adventures are primarily about.

In the game you just described making that marine spend tons of pts to get his martial ability would probably be inappropriate if that represented the typical amount of combat.

Hand_of_Vecna
2018-05-30, 11:29 AM
The Mod Wonder: The "are maneuvers equivalent to spells" discussion can happen elsewhere, don't you think?So, years ago, I played in a Ninjas and Superspies game run by a good friend of mine, who happens to be a rocket scientist and former intelligence analyst for the CIA. He is also five years younger than me, and would make you feel totally inadequate as a human being if he wasn't so goddamn NICE and SUCH a ****ing geek, but I digress.

Hey, I've played N&SS as well. *geek bro fist* Your story speaks to a post I lost to the cloud yesterday.

Basically, Lockpicking and honestly all of the "thief" skills are only useful in a certain kind of game which is generally not presented in most adventure paths and is definitely not the classic dungeon crawl (fair enough this is the rp forum, not the D&D forum). Within games that are not built around investigation/heists lockpicking and related skills are worse than useless, they're disruptive.

I find that many thief players expect to have what amount to solo adventures while in town. This can be fine in the right game where everyone gets something like a player turn from burning wheel, but I often encounter it as an expectation in a game where the fighter's carousing and the cleric's alms are hand waved and the wizard does some napkin math before scribing spells.

In a dungeon scouting ahead requires all the unstealthy party members to sit on their hands while the thief essentially solo plays making decisions about where to explore and getting descriptions from listening at doors and peering through cracks. When indulged this sometimes goes even further with demands for searching for and disarming traps to become a minigame rather than a roll.

All this probably makes me sound like some kind of playstyle zealot criticizing people's badwrong fun. The issue for me is that, as several people have argued for in this thread, these skills are used to have lengthy periods of mechanics heavy solo play. When I'm in planning sessions I usually ask early on "So this party, so stealth or no stealth", assuming the question wasn't preanswered by the game description. Some of my favorite games have been in the soooooooo stealth category with every character having decent stealth with specialties like muscle, safecracker, and face.