A 5e-inspired concentration mechanic.

[BassoonHero]

In 3.5, mid- and high-level spellcasters can maintain massive stacks of buff spells. Many people feel that this is bad thing for balance. For the sake of this thread, I will take that for granted.

5e used the concentration mechanic to limit spellcasters to one buff spell at a time (extremely loosely speaking). That might work in a system with bounded accuracy, but it might be too radical for 3.5. Instead, what about allowing spellcasters to maintain concentration (in the 5e sense) on a number of spell levels equal to their caster level? That way, a caster could maintain about two level-appropriate buffs at once, or several lower-level buffs. This would put a significant cap on “buff stacks” without eliminating them entirely.

A feat might allow a spellcaster to increase their concentration limit. Conditions like fatigue might decrease it.

[Falontani]

That concentration thing is one of the things I hate most about 5E.

Your mechanic would eliminate buffs for the rest of the party, having the spellcaster hoard them all to themselves. And you wouldn't get the awesome moment like you see in Overlord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518

[heavyfuel]

I say go for it. See how it works and report back.

5e's concentration mechanic put a big damper on casters with a mile-long list of buffs. It doesn't make casters hog spell slots in any 5e game I've played. In fact it usually promotes more blasting and on-the-spot buffs, which is reduces casters action economy.

You might want to make buffs that are usually reserved for party members to not have the "concentration" factor. Things like Greater Magic Weapon.


you wouldn't get the awesome moment like you see in Overlord.

I know "awesome" is a relative term, but that was kind of lame and super cheesy.

[NecroDancer]

Try it out, if it has good results than keep the rule, if it doesn't have good results then remove the rule.

[NomGarret]

Try it. I could see it needing further tweaks down the road. Mass versions of spells tic up in value. You might want to include higher level versions of favorite spells to allow mass versions.

Something else to consider would be allowing an additional concentration as a move or maybe swift action each round.

[Nifft]

In 3.5, mid- and high-level spellcasters can maintain massive stacks of buff spells. Many people feel that this is bad thing for balance. For the sake of this thread, I will take that for granted.

5e used the concentration mechanic to limit spellcasters to one buff spell at a time (extremely loosely speaking). That might work in a system with bounded accuracy, but it might be too radical for 3.5. Instead, what about allowing spellcasters to maintain concentration (in the 5e sense) on a number of spell levels equal to their caster level? That way, a caster could maintain about two level-appropriate buffs at once, or several lower-level buffs. This would put a significant cap on “buff stacks” without eliminating them entirely.

A feat might allow a spellcaster to increase their concentration limit. Conditions like fatigue might decrease it.

Hmm.

If you allow a limited number of total spells, that rewards buffing up with a few high-level spells instead of a larger number of lower-level spells.

If you allow a limited number of spell levels, that probably rewards using lower-level slots for buffs.


Putting a hard limit in place allows you to reward various sub-standard classes by violating this limit. For example: "If you're using Sorcerer slots to cast buff spells on your Sorcerer's known spell list, you can ignore all limits on Concentration. Also you can't lose Concentration on these spells, since you've paid for them in blood."

[Selene Sparks]

This is a spectacularly bad idea, for much the same reason that concentration in 5e was a bad idea. WotC hates the idea of non-casters having nice things, so it's the caster's job to make sure the non-casters can participate. Thus, when the wizard can't Fly the whole party, or is at risk of dropping the Protection From Elements on them if they so much as stub their toe, that means you can't adventure into a castle in the clouds, or the inside of a volcano, or the plane of fire, or any similar variety of exotic locations. The only difference your model makes is that anyone not bringing their own redundant buffs to the table is hurting the party, rather than the party being completely nonfunctional.

Beyond that, you're making a bit of an error. Most buffs aren't day-long, so you can't really have massive stacks of buffs without some form of resource shenanigans such as free persists, recharge, or the like, and that's the problem you should be more interested in fixing, rather than shafting non-casters even harder.

[BassoonHero]

The party-buff issue can be easily avoided: multiple castings of the same spell on different targets only count once toward the concentration limit. If the wizard casts fly on himself, then casting it on other party members is no problem.


Something else to consider would be allowing an additional concentration as a move or maybe swift action each round.
I like this. It's another way of being lenient with out-of-combat buffs.


Most buffs aren't day-long, so you can't really have massive stacks of buffs without some form of resource shenanigans

- Energy Absorption (1 hour/level)
- Resistance, Superior (24 hours)
- Overland Flight (1 hour/level)
- Heart of Earth (1 hour/level)
- Heart of Water (1 hour/level)
- Anticipate Teleportation (1 hour/level)
- Mage Armor, Greater (1 hour/level)

I'm not saying this is an optimized stack or that shorter-duration buffs aren't good spells, but it's clear that there's plenty of all-day buffs for the wizard who wants them.

[Selene Sparks]

The party-buff issue can be easily avoided: multiple castings of the same spell on different targets only count once toward the concentration limit. If the wizard casts fly on himself, then casting it on other party members is no problem.And then your caster gets hit by a stray attack, flubs the check, and the entire party dies to the environment. Well, that was sure a good rules change.

Look, party buffing is already an issue. You're already spending slots that could be spent on winning on enabling the adventure at all. It's already taxed. Making buffs more fragile and limited like this does only makes mundanes an even greater drag on resources, which is entirely counterproductive.

I like this. It's another way of being lenient with out-of-combat buffs.Or, counterproposal, maybe give non-casters access to resources such that they don't need caster charity instead of trying to grossly warp the basic underpinnings of the system without even really thinking the implications through.

- Energy Absorption (1 hour/level)
- Resistance, Superior (24 hours)
- Overland Flight (1 hour/level)
- Heart of Earth (1 hour/level)
- Heart of Water (1 hour/level)
- Anticipate Teleportation (1 hour/level)
- Mage Armor, Greater (1 hour/level)

I'm not saying this is an optimized stack or that shorter-duration buffs aren't good spells, but it's clear that there's plenty of all-day buffs for the wizard who wants them.Beyond the fact that a couple of those flatly aren't worth the slots, hour-long buffs aren't "all-day" until at least level 16 unless you're involving free metamagic. 7 buffs that don't last a full day is very clearly not a massive stack of buffs all-day.

Beyond even that, though, why are you even bringing up a list of buffs you admit to being a bad list of buffs? Trying to cite a supposed problem and then immediately admitting that your supposed problem actually isn't a big deal seems rather self-contradictory.

[BassoonHero]

And then your caster gets hit by a stray attack, flubs the check, and the entire party dies to the environment.
This proposal concerns only the concentration limit. It's not intended to import any other mechanics from 5e.


Or, counterproposal, maybe give non-casters access to resources such that they don't need caster charity
This is a perennial holy war I'm not interested in getting into. Should fighters be able to fly on their own? I have no opinion — at least in this thread. There are several threads open in which that discussion might be more appropriate.


hour-long buffs aren't "all-day" until at least level 16 unless you're involving free metamagic.
Most parties do not adventure for sixteen hours a day. Most parties don't spend six hours a day dungeon crawling. This isn't about the “fifteen-minute adventuring day” — common adventuring activities just don't take that much in-character time.


immediately admitting that your supposed problem actually isn't a big deal
This is either an egregious failure of reading comprehension or a willful misrepresentation.

I invite you to read the first post again:


In 3.5, mid- and high-level spellcasters can maintain massive stacks of buff spells. Many people feel that this is bad thing for balance. For the sake of this thread, I will take that for granted.

I said this deliberately. I said this because I'm not interested in rehashing a decades-old argument for the ten-thousandth time.

[heavyfuel]

Beyond the fact that a couple of those flatly aren't worth the slots, hour-long buffs aren't "all-day" until at least level 16 unless you're involving free metamagic. 7 buffs that don't last a full day is very clearly not a massive stack of buffs all-day.

Beyond even that, though, why are you even bringing up a list of buffs you admit to being a bad list of buffs?

It's a pretty good list of buffs with the exception of Greater Mage Armor and Energy Absorption.

And since the game assumes your 24 hours will be divided into three 8 hour segments of Resting, Preparation, and Adventuring, hour/lv buffs start being all day buffs at lv 8, not 16.


I said this deliberately. I said this because I'm not interested in rehashing a decades-old argument for the ten-thousandth time.

The recent "let's try to balance casters a little bit" threads have shown that some people will fight tooth and nail against any proposed mechanic that nerfs casters even by a modicum. Don't mind these people, and if you do, take their opinions with a spoonful of salt.

Like others and I have said. Try it out for yourself and report with results.

[Troacctid]

The party-buff issue can be easily avoided: multiple castings of the same spell on different targets only count once toward the concentration limit. If the wizard casts fly on himself, then casting it on other party members is no problem.
Unnecessary if you're already allowing multiple concentrations.