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Baskineli
2007-09-06, 08:46 AM
There are a lot of ways to get your AC to the sky, but I didn't see a lot of legitimate ways/threads to improve your spell DC.

When I say legitimate, I am talking about plain wizard, at lowish levels (not 20), without prestige classes. Just regular EQ/Feats/whatever.

I just don't like that my wizards spell DCs are just too low...

Ikkitosen
2007-09-06, 08:49 AM
1. Increase casting stat - spells or items.

2. Take spell focus feats.

3. Be a gnome (+1 illusion DCs).

4. Be a grey elf (+2 int, no LA).

...

Zherog
2007-09-06, 08:56 AM
5) Be a sun elf (FR Campaign Setting) +2 Int, +0 LA

SCPRedMage
2007-09-06, 09:13 AM
Spell Focus in the school you're most concerned about. +1 DC to a single school. Tome and Blood had a Greater Spell Focus feat that boosted the DC by 4, but that's 3.0, and I can't remember seeing one for 3.5; since Spell Focus granted a +2 bonus in 3.0, a 3.5 version of Greater would only be a +2.

Dhavaer
2007-09-06, 09:25 AM
Spell Focus in the school you're most concerned about. +1 DC to a single school. Tome and Blood had a Greater Spell Focus feat that boosted the DC by 4, but that's 3.0, and I can't remember seeing one for 3.5; since Spell Focus granted a +2 bonus in 3.0, a 3.5 version of Greater would only be a +2.

3.5 Greater Spell Focus is in the Player's Handbook. It gives +2.

UserClone
2007-09-06, 09:35 AM
-FR has a feat called Spellcasting Prodigy which gives an artificial 2-point bump to your casting stat, for the purposes of DCs and Bonus Spells.

-The Book of Exhalted Cheese has Vow of Nonviolence, which gives a WHOPPING +4 to your DCs (doesn't stack with any SF feats) but only if the spell doesn't deal lethal damage or ability damage.

ndragonsbane
2007-09-06, 09:40 AM
-FR has a feat called Spellcasting Prodigy which gives an artificial 2-point bump to your casting stat, for the purposes of DCs and Bonus Spells.

Unless they erratad it (or I might just be wrong) Spellcasting prodigy only gives you extra bonus spells. The table lists DC's, but the actual feat description does not and description always trumps table if they contradict each other.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 09:44 AM
The feat Charmer from Dragon magazine increases the DC of enchantment spells by 1 and stacks with (Greater) Spell Focus. You must specialize in enchantment and have Spell Focus (enchantment) to take it.

GimliFett
2007-09-06, 09:46 AM
-FR has a feat called Spellcasting Prodigy which gives an artificial 2-point bump to your casting stat, for the purposes of DCs and Bonus Spells.

What ndragonsbane said --> NERF'd. The original did this, but for 3.5 they NERF'd the heck outta spell DCs. You might consider Heighten Spell.

Person_Man
2007-09-06, 09:49 AM
A ton of Cleric domains add +1 Caster Level to specific types of spells.

The aquaman race from Stormwrack adds +2 to Water spells. Stormcaster PrC adds +2 to electricity spells.

Anxe
2007-09-06, 09:53 AM
Bestow Curse on your enemy to lower his saves? Or feeblemind. Or wrack. Lots of ways to lower your opponent's saving throw bonuses.

UserClone
2007-09-06, 09:53 AM
I was unaware that FR ever got 3.5'd. Where can I get a copy of that little gem?

GimliFett
2007-09-06, 09:59 AM
I was unaware that FR ever got 3.5'd. Where can I get a copy of that little gem?

Player's Guide to Faerun. Though I don't play FR anymore, that and Races of Faerun were both 3.5 (RoF was a tweener). And AWESOME! The Southern Magician feat (RoF) is one of my favorites. Ever.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 10:18 AM
A ton of Cleric domains add +1 Caster Level to specific types of spells.
:smallconfused:

How does caster level affect spell DC?

Ikkitosen
2007-09-06, 10:26 AM
:smallconfused:

How does caster level affect spell DC?

Also, cleric domains tend to be taken by, y'know, clerics. Bad day? :smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 10:40 AM
Also, cleric domains tend to be taken by, y'know, clerics. Bad day? :smallbiggrin:
Though most "Arcanist gets a domain" things only apply to the spells, I believe there are a few odd ways for Wizards to gain access to domain granted powers.

Ikkitosen
2007-09-06, 10:43 AM
Though most "Arcanist gets a domain" things only apply to the spells, I believe there are a few odd ways for Wizards to gain access to domain granted powers.

Within the OP's limits? Arcane Disciple is the only feat I can think of, and that's spells only.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 10:56 AM
Within the OP's limits? Arcane Disciple is the only feat I can think of, and that's spells only.
Well, he's looking for spell DC, not caster level. So the point already wandering off topic, anyway. :smallwink:

Zherog
2007-09-06, 11:07 AM
The feat Charmer from Dragon magazine increases the DC of enchantment spells by 1 and stacks with (Greater) Spell Focus. You must specialize in enchantment and have Spell Focus (enchantment) to take it.

Which issue of Dragon, please? I'm playing an enchanter, and that could come in handy. :smallbiggrin:

Ramza00
2007-09-06, 11:19 AM
The Tyranny Domain gives you +1 DC for any enchantment compulsion spells you may cast. You can take planar touchstone to get this domain granted power.

Also don't forget about save reducers, reduce ability scores, fear, nauesa, and other status effects, enervation etc.

Ramza00
2007-09-06, 11:22 AM
Dragon Compedium has a feat called commanding which adds another +1 DC to your enchantment compulsion spells. Originally in Dragon 312, requires the pre requisitite feat persuasive and a high cha.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 12:00 PM
Which issue of Dragon, please? I'm playing an enchanter, and that could come in handy. :smallbiggrin:
I think it was in the "Spellcraft" column of #325 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2004/v5748btpy7ye9), but I'll have to dig it out to be sure. Also in the article was a feat called Potent Enchantment. Same prerequisites, and it increases the HD limit of spells like sleep and geas by three. Pretty useful for any enchanter, I think.

I recall these feats easily because a cohort in a campaign I DM has them. I don't recall the issue number so readily, though, because their effects are sufficiently straightforward as to be memorized. I never need to look them up.

Zherog
2007-09-06, 12:19 PM
Thanks. I'll poke my nose into issue 325 tonight.

Zherog
2007-09-07, 12:02 PM
I'm gonna go and bump this back onto page 1; I scanned through 325 last night and didn't see anything like that. Any other guesses where it might be, Shhalahr?

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 12:05 PM
Zherog: Page 77, Getting Schooled!

Zherog
2007-09-07, 12:06 PM
Gah! I failed my Search check!

Thanks - I'll look again tonight.

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 12:12 PM
I think your avatar may affect your Search checks... :wink:
Personally, I'm more a Murphy's- and Newcastle-man. :smallsmile:

BACK on topic(-ish), I don't much care for most of those feats, especially the Conjuration one. You'd think they could come up with a better Conjuration-flavored feat, something that gives you some extended durations with [summoning] or [creation], along the lines of adding your Primary Casting Mod to the duration?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-07, 12:14 PM
If you're a sorceror, there's the Sherem-Lar and Sherezem-Lar Sorceror feats out of Ghostwalk. Taking both (which have to be taken at first level) nets you an artificial 4 point boost to your casting stat for the purposes of spell DCs and spells per day. Also, it makes your eyes green.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-07, 12:20 PM
Zherog: Getting Schooled!

Am I the only one that appreciates the irony in this. :tongue:

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 12:22 PM
Except Ghostwalk was 3.0 and thus pre-DC-nerfing! :smallsmile: I'm sure it would have suffered the same fate as Spellcasting Prodigy.

Lord Silvanos: Didn't even think about it. Much funny. :smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif
2007-09-07, 12:22 PM
Am I the only one that appreciates the irony in this. :tongue:No, you are not. :smalltongue:




:smallconfused:

How does caster level affect spell DC?Maybe if the spell is question was poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm), with its odd save DC.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-07, 12:28 PM
Except Ghostwalk was 3.0 and thus pre-DC-nerfing! :smallsmile: I'm sure it would have suffered the same fate as Spellcasting Prodigy.

Lord Silvanos: Didn't even think about it. Much funny. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, Ghostwalk has a 3.5 Update Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a) that alters such things. The two feats are untouched.

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 12:29 PM
Actually, Ghostwalk has a 3.5 Update Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a) that alters such things. The two feats are untouched.

My bad, FC. Sorry. :smallsmile: I must say I'm AMAZED at that, but... :shrug:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-07, 12:31 PM
I discovered this when playing a gestalt Sorceror//Bard. I had a base 23 Cha, with the two feats and my items, my Cha was 31 for Sorceror spells and 27 for Bard spells.

Also, my eyes were green.

People loved me. :smallbiggrin:

MeklorIlavator
2007-09-07, 02:11 PM
Also, my eyes were green.

People loved me. :smallbiggrin:
Is this a reference to the fact that you had a really high Cha and the feats make your eyes green, or soemthing else?:smallconfused:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-07, 02:18 PM
Is this a reference to the fact that you had a really high Cha and the feats make your eyes green, or soemthing else?:smallconfused:

People love me anyway. No, it was due to the combination of Suggestion with a +8 Cha mod.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 02:25 PM
I'm gonna go and bump this back onto page 1; I scanned through 325 last night and didn't see anything like that. Any other guesses where it might be, Shhalahr?
Well, since I'd have to dig through my disaster area that is a room to find it, I would have just nebulously suggested it could have been in another issue like 326 or 327. But then GimiliFett answered it for me. And it was in 325! Yay! :smallbiggrin:

Thank you Gimili!


BACK on topic(-ish), I don't much care for most of those feats, especially the Conjuration one. You'd think they could come up with a better Conjuration-flavored feat, something that gives you some extended durations with [summoning] or [creation], along the lines of adding your Primary Casting Mod to the duration?
Totally. I only remember that article because of the Enchantment feats. And that's only because it was relevant at the time.


Maybe if the spell is question was poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/poison.htm), with its odd save DC.
Aargh! I really hate that spell. Why, oh, why should the DC formula be so special for that one, huh?

Jasdoif
2007-09-07, 02:30 PM
Aargh! I really hate that spell. Why, oh, why should the DC formula be so special for that one, huh?Oh, I agree entirely. I guess it's supposed to be a mimic of the usual creature Poison save DC formula (using 1/2 CL instead of 1/2 HD) but it's still a crazy thing to be an exception.

Now, I could see a benefit of (10 + 1/2 CL + ability mod) being the normal save DC rule...but as an exceptional case it's just goofy.

Zherog
2007-09-07, 02:35 PM
Aargh! I really hate that spell. Why, oh, why should the DC formula be so special for that one, huh?

The designers sat down at the table. I have a copy of the conversation. I'll remove the names to protect the guilty, but here's how it basically went:

Designer 1: What can we do to annoy people, especially Shhalahr Windrider?
Designer 2: We could make rules inconsistent! For example, in one book we can say that if you ever fail to meet the requirements for a prestige class, you lose everything. Then in another book, we can be totally silent on the issues.
Designer 1: Nah - that stuff happens without even trying. We need something truly, incredibly obtuse.
Designer 2: We could include a picture of you.
Designer 1: You know, I have the power to fire you.
Designer 2: I meant a picture of me. Yeah, that's the ticket. Hey! I've got it! Why don't we pick one spell in the core books, and we'll calculate the save DC differently.
Designer 1: Brilliant!
Designer 2: We could base it off caster level. Then all the cheese monkeys will get their panties in a twist when they start posting about pumping the DC through the roof.
Designer 1: Oooh - those conversations are always amusing to read. I especially love the way they all devolve into people shouting about "roleplay vs rollplay." heh heh. Good stuff. OK, let's do it!

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 02:40 PM
While Jasodif's explanation is probably more probable, I chose to believe Zherog's, because it's scripted.

That, and because there really is a vast conspiracy to annoy me, and this fits into it perfectly.
Yeah, I've been waiting all day to say, "probably more probable."

Indon
2007-09-07, 02:41 PM
Oh, I agree entirely. I guess it's supposed to be a mimic of the usual creature Poison save DC formula (using 1/2 CL instead of 1/2 HD) but it's still a crazy thing to be an exception.

Now, I could see a benefit of (10 + 1/2 CL + ability mod) being the normal save DC rule...but as an exceptional case it's just goofy.

Don't they do that for maneuver DC's (from Tome of Battle), or something?

Jasdoif
2007-09-07, 07:57 PM
Don't they do that for maneuver DC's (from Tome of Battle), or something?Not for DCs, no. The official rule is "see the maneuver's description for the save DC."

Looking through maneuver descriptions shows that the vast majority of such DCs are 10 + maneuver level + some ability modifier. The exact ability is determined by the maneuver in question; most match within the same discipline, but not all (Clever Positioning uses Dex, while the other save-allowing maneuvers in Setting Sun use Strength).

There are some exceptional save DCs, like Disrupting Strike's (DC = damage dealt).


What's funny is that a couple of Desert Wind maneuvers (like Inferno Blast) are marked as having a save, but no formula is provided in the description.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-07, 08:17 PM
There are a lot of ways to get your AC to the sky, but I didn't see a lot of legitimate ways/threads to improve your spell DC. And thank goodness for that! They're scary enough as they are!

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 08:21 PM
What's funny is that a couple of Desert Wind maneuvers (like Inferno Blast) are marked as having a save, but no formula is provided in the description.
I don't suppose it needs saying, but I'll say it anyway: The main Desert Wind ability score appears to be Wisdom, so it's probably best to stick with the quasi standard 10+maneuver level+Wis modifier.

Jasdoif
2007-09-07, 08:33 PM
I don't suppose it needs saying, but I'll say it anyway: The main Desert Wind ability score appears to be Wisdom, so it's probably best to stick with the quasi standard 10+maneuver level+Wis modifier.Wisdom is indeed the theme of Desert Wind (and of Shadow Hand; perhaps owing to their swordsage exclusivity), and that would also be my conclusion. I still find it amusing that a level 9 maneuver got overlooked on the matter. You'd think the highest level ones would be looked at a little more.

Anyway, I don't like the official "per case" mechanic for save DCs. Much rather have the apparently unspoken formula be the stated standard. Saying "DC 10 + maneuver level + ability mod" and a table matching disciplines to ability mods would suffice. Didn't psionics used to do that?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 08:42 PM
Anyway, I don't like the official "per case" mechanic for save DCs. Much rather have the apparently unspoken formula be the stated standard.
Indeed. It would save so much ink.


Saying "DC 10 + maneuver level + ability mod" and a table matching disciplines to ability mods would suffice. Didn't psionics used to do that?
Well, yeah. Back in 3.0 when each discipline had its own key ability. Rather liked the idea behind it, even if it tended to suck mechanically. Though I could never understand how psychometabolism was Strength and psychokinesis was Constitution. Shoulda been the other way around.

Zherog
2007-09-09, 09:15 AM
The feat Charmer from Dragon magazine increases the DC of enchantment spells by 1 and stacks with (Greater) Spell Focus. You must specialize in enchantment and have Spell Focus (enchantment) to take it.

Alright - I've looked it up. It's not quite as you describe here. It gives a +1 to the DC of all enchantment (charm) spells, rather than to all enchantment spells.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-09, 03:33 PM
Bestow Curse on your enemy to lower his saves? Or feeblemind. Or wrack. Lots of ways to lower your opponent's saving throw bonuses.

Pretty sure Feeblemind doesn't affect Wisdom. And the part about the penalty to saving throw is supposed to be vs the Feeblemind itself, I'm pretty sure.:smalltongue:

If you weren't so opposed to PrCs, I can think of Thrall of Malcanthet(Dragon 355 I think), Snow Witch(Frostburn), Dread Witch(Heroes of Horror) being a few that grant +Charisma/DC to Charm effects. Thrall of Graz'zt from Book of Vile Darkness possibly(although it's 3.0, so maybe not). Tainted Scholar(also Heroes of Horror) gives insane DCs(if you're Undead/Evil Outsider), since you use your Taint score to determine spells/day, and save DCs for said spells.