Can rituals be cast while walking/moving/riding?

[Red Bear]

I have a wizard player that told me that he wants to cast detect magic as a ritual every 10 minutes, so that basically he has detect magic active 50% of his awake time.
What do you think? should I just allow him to do that?

[Laserlight]

I would not allow movement.

[Elric VIII]

Seems a bit gamey, although it shouldn't break anything.

I imagine it would be him muttering arcane language and making subtle hand gestures while travelling.

Just make it simple, give him disadvantage on all perception checks, but let him make normal perception checks to see any magic stuff they come across. Also, make the party have to travel at minimum speed while he wants to so this. Make sure if he does botch perception that you enforce surprise rules.

That should be a reasonable enough downside to make it an actual choice on his part while not bogging things down too much.

I like to mostly DM with a "yes, but..." approach. Just focus on making choices have consequences in addition to benefits and things will work out.

[Falcon X]

As a general concept, no.

However, I might allow it if the player had a unique ritual style.
By unique style, I mean that all their rituals look like
- Native American ritual dances
- Karate kata
- An intricate musical performance with multiple instruments
- Interpretive dance
- All are chants invoking deities, spirits, and elements
- Ritual torture.
- etc.

If my player creatively created a theme to their ritual mechanics, I would probably allow it and probably allow them to be flexible with it.
A karate kata is not possible on horseback.
An intricate musical performance is possible, but very difficult.

[Spore]

I have a wizard player that told me that he wants to cast detect magic as a ritual every 10 minutes, so that basically he has detect magic active 50% of his awake time.
What do you think? should I just allow him to do that?

Nope. There is a reason why 5. edition made this a first level spell and a ritual. Stuff like this bogs down the gameplay and opens the avenue for all kinds of odd requests that root their legality on "But you allowed Bob to cast all the time."

And do you really want to interrupt scene exposition every time for Bob, the special mage, to explain which auras of magic he sees and where? I do not think so.

[RSP]

Seems a bit gamey, although it shouldn't break anything.

I imagine it would be him muttering arcane language and making subtle hand gestures while travelling.

Just make it simple, give him disadvantage on all perception checks, but let him make normal perception checks to see any magic stuff they come across. Also, make the party have to travel at minimum speed while he wants to so this. Make sure if he does botch perception that you enforce surprise rules.

That should be a reasonable enough downside to make it an actual choice on his part while not bogging things down too much.

I like to mostly DM with a "yes, but..." approach. Just focus on making choices have consequences in addition to benefits and things will work out.

Not sure I'd allow it but if one did, RAW, I'd say they wouldn't get any Perception check:

"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

I can't imagine casting a 10 minute ritual takes less attention then drawing a map.

Also, to OP, keep in mind Rituals take Concentration, though this might not matter to the caster.

[sithlordnergal]

I honestly don't see an issue with this. I'm a lenient DM and I am more then willing to let people cast certain rituals as they walk. Now, they will have disadvantage on perception checks as they move, and I do make great use of surprise rounds anyway, but if that is a risk they are willing to take I will let them.

That said, I only let them do this with specific rituals. For example, I would let them move and cast Identify, Detect Magic, or other spells that feel like they can be cast while moving. However, spells like Leomund's Tiny Hut cannot.

[Jerrykhor]

By RAW, casting a ritual has no impact on movement. He just can't do anything else that requires an action, and can't speak anything else due to the V component while casting the ritual.

Most DMs would be really upset by this kind of 'button spam' style of meta gaming, like the whole 'Guidance spam' thing just to get an extra 1d4 to initiative. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[DarkKnightJin]

I might allow it, IF they have a cart to ride in so they don't have to worry about steering the horse, or walking.
But, if they're busy casting a spell or performing a ritual.. they aren't doing anything else. No Perception checks, no social checks, and only very minimal talking. Kinda need to keep your attention on the ritual you're casting, after all.

Make it so they -CAN- do it.. but there is no advantage to them doing it.

[Unoriginal]

I could allow it if the ritual was done in a big enough vehicle, like a ship or a large cart (as said by DarkKnightJin) but otherwise no, you can't use rituals while moving.

As a rule of thumb, the answer to "can I have this magical effect on 50% of the time for free?" should be "no".

If it's through a magic item or Boon, it's not "for free" to be clear (at least in principle).

[Malifice]

I would not allow movement.

Crazy. You can short rest while walking or riding a horse.

And creatures cast spells while moving every single round.

They're not standing still while they cast and then moving. The spellcasting and movement happen simultaneously.

[Dyndrilliac]

If I had a player that wanted their character to constantly spam Detect Magic, I would tell them to dip 2 levels of Warlock for the Eldritch Sight invocation which allows them to do exactly that. Rituals are slow, tedious affairs (which is why a spell that is cast as a ritual has its casting time increased by 10 minutes). I wouldn't allow one to be cast while moving. If the thing the player wants to do can be accomplished using the rules as they are without a loophole, but they just aren't willing to invest that much work into it, then the answer is no. To allow this wouldn't be fair to the other players who are willing to put in the work to earn the abilities they want their characters to have.

[Contrast]

Depending on how you fluff rituals, might just be a simple no. For instance if rituals involve drawing chalk outlines on the floor/placement of special items around the cast to channel the magical energies or whatever.

If I were minded to approve, unless they were in a back of a cart or something (and potentially even then depending on how fast they were travelling) I'd probably make them take a concentration check with disadvantage to represent the minor distractions involved over the entire period messing up the ritual.

If they were actually trying to travel at anything above their slowest speed or there were other factors in play that made maintaining concentration on the ritual difficult I'd probably just say no.


Edit - its probably also worth just talking to the player and asking him if his character would really spend 1/7th of his waking life every single day chanting ritually for literally no reason. Also worth saying in any sort of built up area, walking around casting spells will draw questions/potentially hostile attention from the locals which would probably require the interruption of the ritual to resolve. I'd make this clear before they start.

[djreynolds]

Not sure I'd allow it but if one did, RAW, I'd say they wouldn't get any Perception check:

"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats."

I can't imagine casting a 10 minute ritual takes less attention then drawing a map.

Also, to OP, keep in mind Rituals take Concentration, though this might not matter to the caster.

This is what I would do, good call

[JackPhoenix]

RAW, they can. It just take your action and concentration every turn you spend casting, as if you were casting normal spell with cast time longer than single action. You still have your movement, reactions, and even bonus actions (but you can't use BA to cast spells).

Would I allow it? No... well, sort of. Some rituals may include moving around as part of the ritual... I can imagine Alarm, Leomund's Tiny Hut or Forbiddance ritual casting involving slow walk around the area to be warded. Same with some non-ritual "rituals", like Hallow... that one has 24 hour cast time, but isn't proper ritual.. just standing there, doing nothing but chanting for all that time would be weird. Not to mention that the caster may need to use bathroom in the meantime...

[War_lord]

I would say no, in my view a "ritual" is going to involve magic circles and so on. Now you may say "but RAW says..." but it's 5e and rulings take precedent over RAW in your game. So go with what feels right to you.

[Tanarii]

Absolutely you can cast and move. Rituals explicitly say they follow all the normal rules for spells. They are also explicitly called out in the Long Casting Times section, which covers any spell that takes more than an action to cast, as requiring your action each round and concentration. No mention of not being able to move is included.

Although it's worth noting the concentration requirement may indirectly impact the ability to move, per the concentration note on the DM using their judgement on environmental effects.

If you're going to house rule rituals or other long casting time spells to work differently, tell your players before they make a spellcaster. Don't pull it on them after they've already rolled one.

[Dyndrilliac]

Absolutely you can cast and move. Rituals explicitly say they follow all the normal rules for spells. They are also explicitly called out in the Long Casting Times section, which covers any spell that takes more than an action to cast, as requiring your action each round and concentration. No mention of not being able to move is included.

Although it's worth noting the concentration requirement may indirectly impact the ability to move, per the concentration note on the DM using their judgement on environmental effects.

If you're going to house rule rituals or other long casting time spells to work differently, tell your players before they make a spellcaster. Don't pull it on them after they've already rolled one.

You don't have to house rule how spells work in order to deny the request made by the player referenced in the original post. It's not really a matter of whether you can move and cast at the same time; the DM simply as a matter of policy shouldn't be in the business of allowing a power gamer to use loopholes to replicate for free an ability that other characters would need considerable resource investment to pull off. This is the same logic behind not allowing a player to use the Hide action while visible to the entity from which he/she is hiding without a feature like Hide in Plain Sight. It shows favoritism, steps on the toes of players whose characters naturally get those features, and then every time you rule against an unreasonable player request in the future you'll hear the same justified argument: "You let <insert player name here> do <insert stupid thing here>! How is this situation different?"

It's a slippery slope, and if a player doesn't like the fact that I won't go down that slippery slope, then they can find another DM/group or run their own game. I simply don't care if a rule loophole or technicality doesn't explicitly forbid it. Neither should the OP, IMHO.

[MegenticPull]

RAW, casting only requires an action, which leaves you free to move as you please.

That said, I wouldn't allow this in my games. I played a sorcerer who cast unseen servant (ritual caster feat) quite often, but never once did I ask the DM to just assume I cast it once every hour. Casting a spell is effort, especially as a ritual. Unless they're specifically practicing, no character is going to cast a spell over and over again all day long.

[StoicLeaf]

I'd say depending on the ritual, it's ok. Detect magic is fine.

Now for the tricky stuff: how much effort as a DM do you want to put into this.
Because lets be honest, a wizard droning on and on for half your waking hours is going to be a huge annoyance.
I'd limited travel speed to slow, which means now you're also taking longer to get places.
I'd automatically fail the wizard on perception checks with disadvantage on initiative checks.
The group will far more likely run into ambushes (slow and noisy!).
From an anti-meta point of view: the spells nystul's magic aura and non-detection exist.
It isn't far fetched to think that a decent wizard will have concealed his/her warding spells from a cheap detect magic spell.
Nor is it far fetched to assume an advanced city/wizard's domicile wouldn't have minor magic all over the place. How would you tell what's a problem and what isn't?

If you want to be diplomatic about it, tell your players the above facts.
If the wizard persists in doing his casting, throw some of the above situations at him; ambush in the forest, enemy archers focus the wizard (the loud one casting something!), you don't have to kill them, the bandits could just walk off with some of their gear/money.
Or a suspiciously clean hallway has no signs of magic, only for a glyph of warding to then explode!

Maliciousness aside, detect magic is supposed to be a tool to be used in a situation where you, as the DM, have clearly narrated magical aspects.
A lot of the interactions in D&D are based on good faith, and this wizard spamming the spell for some small meta advantage but ignoring *all* of the RP aspects is being minorly abusive.

[Tubben]

Because lets be honest, a wizard droning on and on for half your waking hours is going to be a huge annoyance.
I'd limited travel speed to slow, which means now you're also taking longer to get places.
I'd automatically fail the wizard on perception checks with disadvantage on initiative checks.
The group will far more likely run into ambushes (slow and noisy!).


My opinion.

A wizard who mumble while walking is not really an problem for the rest. Except if he is speaking clear and loud.

Why limit the travel speed, everyone of us is very well able to mutter some words while going fast.

Fail on passive perception is fine, but why disadvantage on initiative checks (Not even sure if you can have disadvantage here).

And which group rely on passive/active perception checks of an wizard :). It's not that he's alone in the party.

It's not like he's reading an book while walking (and i do this pretty often IRL, btw.)

I just dont think anyone would perform a ritual back to back for a whole marching day.

[StoicLeaf]

My opinion.

A wizard who mumble while walking is not really an problem for the rest. Except if he is speaking clear and loud.

Why limit the travel speed, everyone of us is very well able to mutter some words while going fast.

Fail on passive perception is fine, but why disadvantage on initiative checks (Not even sure if you can have disadvantage here).

And which group rely on passive/active perception checks of an wizard :). It's not that he's alone in the party.

It's not like he's reading an book while walking (and i do this pretty often IRL, btw.)

I just dont think anyone would perform a ritual back to back for a whole marching day.

Casting isn't mumbling. As per the rules, it requires concentration.
Just think of walking down the street, using your smartphone. You can't walk as fast. You don't notice **** going on around you. You can't use your hands to do other stuff.
Times that by 5 considering spell casting is you bending the laws of the natural world to do stuff.

The rest of the group will notice stuff just fine, it's just that the wizard won't.
He'll get surprised.

[Amdy_vill]

I have a wizard player that told me that he wants to cast detect magic as a ritual every 10 minutes, so that basically he has detect magic active 50% of his awake time.
What do you think? should I just allow him to do that?

rules say nothing that says you can't from what i see. i would allow it but some spells would be off the table

[Naanomi]

They’d be noisy (verbal components are defined as audible) and it would eat their concentration (limiting their ability to carry effects between encounters)... but really the effects are not game shattering

[Tanarii]

You don't have to house rule how spells work in order to deny the request made by the player referenced in the original post. It's not really a matter of whether you can move and cast at the same time; the DM simply as a matter of policy shouldn't be in the business of allowing a power gamer to use loopholes to replicate for free an ability that other characters would need considerable resource investment to pull off. This is the same logic behind not allowing a player to use the Hide action while visible to the entity from which he/she is hiding without a feature like Hide in Plain Sight. It shows favoritism, steps on the toes of players whose characters naturally get those features, and then every time you rule against an unreasonable player request in the future you'll hear the same justified argument: "You let <insert player name here> do <insert stupid thing here>! How is this situation different?"

It's a slippery slope, and if a player doesn't like the fact that I won't go down that slippery slope, then they can find another DM/group or run their own game. I simply don't care if a rule loophole or technicality doesn't explicitly forbid it. Neither should the OP, IMHO.
It's not the same logic as Hide, because that's not RAW. This is clear cut RAW. But I don't disagree that this particular example is in the same boat as someone that wants to cast Guidance every minute. If you don't want a player to do this, just tell them to stop being a rules-lawyering putz. Don't institute a house-rule that prevents a more reasonable use of the RAW rule.

Also, insofar as RAW goes, it's worth pointing out that for both cases you're casting a V component spell over and over again. That means your party can't be super stealthy, although them might easily be far enough away that normal talking wouldn't be heard anyway. And in both cases you're using up your concentration slot. So there is some (minor) cost to trying to game the system this way.

[RSP]

I think the biggest issue with allowing this would be having Forbiddance dropped every 20 minutes particularly in a campaign that features one of the effected creature types. Alarm would also be annoying: you'd essentially always have your 6 covered by a telepathic alarm and, obviously, this has a much greater play time throughout the campaign as it can start at level 1.

If neither of those are issues for your campaign, then it probably doesn't break anything to allow it.

[Tubben]

Just think of walking down the street, using your smartphone. You can't walk as fast. You don't notice **** going on around you. You can't use your hands to do other stuff.
Times that by 5 considering spell casting is you bending the laws of the natural world to do stuff.


I dont know, i am pretty able to move at regular speed while reading a book. Yes, i only recognice 2 meter before me, but thats enough (In regard of moving speed). As i said i agree with perception disadvantage.
I disagree with "5x more concentration", it's bread and butter for an wizard. It's really not hard for him to cast a first level spell.

But i think a party will have horses pretty fast anyway :)

[Tanarii]

I dont know, i am pretty able to move at regular speed while reading a book. Yes, i only recognice 2 meter before me, but thats enough (In regard of moving speed). As i said i agree with perception disadvantage.
I disagree with "5x more concentration", it's bread and butter for an wizard. It's really not hard for him to cast a first level spell.

But i think a party will have horses pretty fast anyway :)
Not to mention casting a spell is nothing like looking at a book or smartphone. If it was, spellcasters wouldnt be able to defend themselves. Or even target things with the spell being cast, for that matter.

[StoicLeaf]

I dont know, i am pretty able to move at regular speed while reading a book. Yes, i only recognice 2 meter before me, but thats enough (In regard of moving speed). As i said i agree with perception disadvantage.
I disagree with "5x more concentration", it's bread and butter for an wizard. It's really not hard for him to cast a first level spell.

But i think a party will have horses pretty fast anyway :)

*sigh*
I really, really doubt it.

[hymer]

Detect Magic isn't that useful to have 'on'. As soon as someone in the party has a magical item or a running spell, you'd get a 'ping' on the radar every round. Once you get a 'ping', you can spend an action to look at an object to see if it has a magical aura.
It's an awful lot of trouble to go to in order to get a very limited ability to sense some useful stuff.

[JeffreyGator]

Here's another potential usage. I have a small ritual caster.

Would that character be able to keep up 6 ritual phantom steeds for all day if they were just casting and someone else is actually guiding the magical effect that they are on?

In terms of game play this allows triple speed overland movement at 5th level which is probably not game-breaking.

I agree with the disadvantage on perception checks and not getting to use your action for anything else (hence someone else is controlling the steed)

This also presupposes that a phantom steed could carry a medium rider and a small rider at the same time.

[Doug Lampert]

I have a wizard player that told me that he wants to cast detect magic as a ritual every 10 minutes, so that basically he has detect magic active 50% of his awake time.
What do you think? should I just allow him to do that?

It's an action to be casting a ritual, that means it's at least some strain. If you are using your action and move you are working as hard as most people do in a fight for their lives. I'd say it's at least as fatiguing as forced marching. You're using your action every turn to do something, doing that for hours on end is a lot of effort.

And, if I were running it, he'd be at disadvantage to EVERYTHING else while doing this, including specifically initiative rolls, an initiative roll is just a dex check after all, there's absolutely no reason you can't be at disadvantage to it.

[Tubben]

*sigh*
I really, really doubt it.

Well, not sure what to write here. Calling me a liar is not really a good way for a discussion.

Beside this, reading a book while walking at normal walking speed is not really hard. Dont know how's that hard to believe.

Anyway, have fun :)

[Vogie]

I'd personally rule that they could do the ritual while riding in a cart, provided someone else was steering.

If you are using the 4 speeds of horseback riding (walk, trot, canter, & gallop), I'd say you can concentrate on a ritual while the mount is at walking speed, but not trot, canter, or gallop.

[guachi]

I have no problem with people casting a ritual or casting any spell for that matter while walking. And I'm baffled by those who do. The idea that casting a ritual is somehow as fatiguing as major physical exertion while in a fight is nonsense.

A ritual is just a long version of spell casting. It's like giving a prepared speech, or acting, or singing, or playing a musical instrument. People can and do move while doing each of these things. It's not remotely manipulating or abusing the rules to walk and cast. The rules clearly state you use your Action and Concentration and neither prevent movement. The people who wrote the rule books knew what they were doing.

The only way I'd disallow it is if the spell required the caster to be in one location for the entire casting time. But casting and walking in general? Sure.

[Demonslayer666]

Yes, but I would probably require a concentration check for anything too rough.

Constantly doing so would be very abnormal behavior, and I would probably discourage it in various ways.

[Doug Lampert]

I have no problem with people casting a ritual or casting any spell for that matter while walking. And I'm baffled by those who do. The idea that casting a ritual is somehow as fatiguing as major physical exertion while in a fight is nonsense.

A ritual is just a long version of spell casting. It's like giving a prepared speech, or acting, or singing, or playing a musical instrument. People can and do move while doing each of these things. It's not remotely manipulating or abusing the rules to walk and cast. The rules clearly state you use your Action and Concentration and neither prevent movement. The people who wrote the rule books knew what they were doing.

The only way I'd disallow it is if the spell required the caster to be in one location for the entire casting time. But casting and walking in general? Sure.

Using your action and your move is exactly how you act in combat. Normal walking you don't use your action. Normal crafting or instrument playing, you don't use your move.

How are you deciding that the stress of casting a spell, something you can normally do only a few times a day, is not at all stressful?

If it's all that easy to cast, why can't just anyone cast and swing a sword at the same time if there are not somatic components? Could it be because both casting and swinging a sword have the exact same rules description, they are both actions?

[Tubben]

Using your action and your move is exactly how you act in combat. Normal walking you don't use your action. Normal crafting or instrument playing, you don't use your move.

How are you deciding that the stress of casting a spell, something you can normally do only a few times a day, is not at all stressful?

If it's all that easy to cast, why can't just anyone cast and swing a sword at the same time if there are not somatic components? Could it be because both casting and swinging a sword have the exact same rules description, they are both actions?


You can houserule however you want, but RAW is very clear here....





increased casting time
having the "ritual" tag in the spell description
the caster class can cast spells as rituals (bard, clerics, druids, warlocks, wizards)



The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level.


Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see “Concentration” below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot.



Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn’t interfere with concentration.

What breaks concentration?


Casting another spell that requires concentration.
Taking damage (After failing the concentration check!)
Being incapacitated or killed.



Your DM may rule that certain aspects of travel do interfere, but that will be situational.

The DM might also decide that certain environmental phenomena, such as a wave crashing over you while you’re on a storm-tossed ship, require you to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell. (Basic Rules, p. 10)


Finaly: The DM may rule that it's not possible, just because well, he's the DM.

But the rules are very clear. You can perform rituals while moving, without ANY disadvantage or anything else. Given there are no special circumstances like an storm or something else.

[Beleriphon]

My question is why does the player want to do this? Because they can? Because they think they're outsmarting you? This more than a DM/GM making a ruling about the game, there's more going on here and it isn't necessarily about a power gamer/rules lawyer. There's a reason the player wants to do this. I'd outright ask them what their intentions are and why think its necessary for them as a player to be doing this. Really emphasize that you don't care what the character "would do" but you want to address the player motivations.

[Tanarii]

Detect Magic isn't that useful to have 'on'. As soon as someone in the party has a magical item or a running spell, you'd get a 'ping' on the radar every round. Once you get a 'ping', you can spend an action to look at an object to see if it has a magical aura.
It's an awful lot of trouble to go to in order to get a very limited ability to sense some useful stuff.
That is a very accurate observation. And something I've always forgotten when players cast that spell. It does make it considerably less than useful when run RAW.

[guachi]

How are you deciding that the stress of casting a spell, something you can normally do only a few times a day, is not at all stressful?

Nice strawman you got there. In no way did I say that casting and walking was "not at all stressful". It requires your action and concentration but nothing else (that I'm aware of) in the game that requires your action and/or concentration prevents movement simply by virtue of being an action or requiring concentration.

Casting a spell is analogous to the things I mentioned - singing, acting, reciting a speech, etc. - as they often require V, S, and M components. They require memorization and recitation at specific pitch and frequency like spells do. And yet, somehow, people here on Earth manage to do this while moving or even more energetic activity like dancing. People here on Earth manage to do this for more than 10 minutes at a time.

Also, you *can* cast spells more than a few times a day. It's called a cantrip.

[StoicLeaf]

Nice strawman you got there. In no way did I say that casting and walking was "not at all stressful". It requires your action and concentration but nothing else (that I'm aware of) in the game that requires your action and/or concentration prevents movement simply by virtue of being an action or requiring concentration.

Casting a spell is analogous to the things I mentioned - singing, acting, reciting a speech, etc. - as they often require V, S, and M components. They require memorization and recitation at specific pitch and frequency like spells do. And yet, somehow, people here on Earth manage to do this while moving or even more energetic activity like dancing. People here on Earth manage to do this for more than 10 minutes at a time.

Also, you *can* cast spells more than a few times a day. It's called a cantrip.

And yet here on earth, you cannot dance and sing *well* at the same time. People that do are lip synching.
And yet, here on earth, thousands of people die every year in accidents because their eyes are glued to their mobile phones instead of the road, that train coming into the station, the road, etc.

If all you're doing is saying words, that kind of goes against the fluff of what it is to be a wizard in faerun.
Because then every peasant and his mom could cast spells. There needs to be something more that requires years of training.

[Tubben]

And yet here on earth, you cannot dance and sing *well* at the same time. People that do are lip synching.

Just good that you dont have to sing and dance to cast a spell, you have to say a few words and just walk forward.

[JackPhoenix]

Just good that you dont have to sing and dance to cast a spell, you have to say a few words and just walk forward.

Sure, you don't have to sing and dance to cast a spell. However, you have to say the incantation correctly with exactly right intonation and resonance, while making precise hand gestures, potentialy while manipulating certain object. While concentrating to keep the magic in check. You have to do this for at least ten minutes, flawlessly... a single mistake or interruption breaks the whole process.

I'm not sure what singing and dancing you've seen, but this sounds much harder to me. And it's definitely not "saying a few words and walking forward".

[Tanarii]

And yet here on earth, you cannot dance and sing *well* at the same time. People that do are lip synching.
And yet, here on earth, thousands of people die every year in accidents because their eyes are glued to their mobile phones instead of the road, that train coming into the station, the road, etc.

If all you're doing is saying words, that kind of goes against the fluff of what it is to be a wizard in faerun.
Because then every peasant and his mom could cast spells. There needs to be something more that requires years of training.all totally irrelevant, because casting a spell is nothing like that. You can do it while effectively defend yourself against an armed warrior swinging a weapon at you. You can effectively do it an move your full movement.

Edit: I should have started those with "in 5e, you can ..."

It sounds to me like you want spell casting to work like it did in AD&D, where you have to stand stock still and can't do anything except cast, and lose the spell if you get hit. And any except the lowest level spells are cast last in the round, meaning you're very likely to get attacked if you're in range and obviously casting.

I have to admit, that still appeals to me a bit because it was the balancing factor for spell casters that is missing now. That and slow level gains.

But this is a different edition, and spell casting is not what it used to be. It's some simple movements and words that can't be interrupted, and can easily be done from the back of a trotting horse or while walking, during combat while effectively defending yourself.

[Tubben]

Sure, you don't have to sing and dance to cast a spell. However, you have to say the incantation correctly with exactly right intonation and resonance, while making precise hand gestures, potentialy while manipulating certain object. While concentrating to keep the magic in check. You have to do this for at least ten minutes, flawlessly... a single mistake or interruption breaks the whole process.

I'm not sure what singing and dancing you've seen, but this sounds much harder to me. And it's definitely not "saying a few words and walking forward".

You think it's that way, thats all.

In 5e it's not like that, in 5e you can move and get attacked while casting an spell.
I allready wrote, you can houserule that however you like. But RAW its pretty clear, and i posted that a few post above.

[Naanomi]

Many bards I know sing and dance and cast spells all at the same time

[M Placeholder]

Many bards I know sing and dance and cast spells all at the same time

They are Bards. How many Wizards do you know that have taken choreography lessions and have the balance to do that?

[Naanomi]

They are Bards. How many Wizards do you know that have taken choreography lessions and have the balance to do that?
Any with the Entertainer background?

[Spore]

Any with the Entertainer background?

then I'd request a Perform check with DC 10+ spell level. I think that is fair.

[Tanarii]

then I'd request a Perform check with DC 10+ spell level. I think that is fair.
There's no reason a player can't declare their PC's V and S components to be embedded in song and dance. Regardless of class.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Let's consider square dancing (or any other folk dances) many of those involve complex movements, responding to commands that may not be in sequence, all while holding several different conversations (because people talk like crazy while doing them in social situations). A DC 10 Charisma (Perform) check means that they fail 45% of the time. Which is bull.

Or consider marching bands in parades. With even a modicum of training, middle schoolers (who are notorious for being uncoordinated and low on attention span) can march in straight lines and play instruments at the same time. Some can even do it while marching backward.

So a trained magic user can certainly keep a ritual going while they're doing something simple like marching. They can't also be scouting, watching for ambushes, or foraging, but they can certainly perform a ritual going. Regardless of any training in performance (which is much more about pleasing an audience than actually hitting the right notes. That's what proficiency is for).

[Tanarii]

They can't also be scouting, watching for ambushes, or foraging, but they can certainly perform a ritual going.Nothing says you lose your passive perception while casting spells. (edit: nor while using concentration.) You can't take the Search action though. Unless it's a bonus action or reaction spell. Nor can you do anything else which is the equivalent of an action.

So IMO it should be possible to be aware of threats. But not forage, navigate, track or map.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Nothing says you lose your passive perception while casting spells. (edit: nor while using concentration.) You can't take the Search action though. Unless it's a bonus action or reaction spell. Nor can you do anything else which is the equivalent of an action.

So IMO it should be possible to be aware of threats. But not forage, navigate, track or map.

I meant as primary lookout. So no active Searching, but you can pay attention. Otherwise marching bands would stumble all over themselves--situational awareness is an important component of being trained.

Edit: but isn't navigating/foraging called out as being incompatible with passive perception? I've always taken that as "if you're busy doing anything else, e.g. <examples>, you can't use passive perception." Spell-casting counts like navigating or foraging IMO.

[Spore]

There's no reason a player can't declare their PC's V and S components to be embedded in song and dance. Regardless of class.

Correct. Still, doing stuff like that on the move is hard. Ever tried dancing with a group of friends that walk towards anywhere? I swear the alcohol didn't make it harder to dance, it just made me happier!

[Tanarii]

I meant as primary lookout. So no active Searching, but you can pay attention. Otherwise marching bands would stumble all over themselves--situational awareness is an important component of being trained.

Edit: but isn't navigating/foraging called out as being incompatible with passive perception? I've always taken that as "if you're busy doing anything else, e.g. <examples>, you can't use passive perception." Spell-casting counts like navigating or foraging IMO.Spell casting doesn't count like navigating or foraging. It it did, it would say so somewhere in the section on casting spells, or in the section on concentration, or the section on paying attention for threats.

That's a fairly significant impact that spellcasting to just assume happens when it's not anywhere in the rules, and when they specifically did call out other things denying the ability to detect threats.

I mean, I'm all in favor in general of saying "this requires as much attention out of combat as foraging, navigating, tracking or mapping". I've said it myself many times. But you're talking about a major nerf to spellcasting in combat that's not mentioned anywhere. Because the spellcasting for rituals follows the same rules as casting spells in combat, including the rules for multiple round casting & concentration.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I dont know, i am pretty able to move at regular speed while reading a book. Yes, i only recognice 2 meter before me, but thats enough (In regard of moving speed). As i said i agree with perception disadvantage.
I disagree with "5x more concentration", it's bread and butter for an wizard. It's really not hard for him to cast a first level spell.

But i think a party will have horses pretty fast anyway :)

I agree. I could longboard around my campus while reading a book. And that's on sidewalks with other people going to class as well. Having the ability to look around you while casting a spell would mean it should be easier and you should be more aware than I was. Not saying there wouldn't be disadvantages. They wouldn't be able to take another action without interrupting their casting for instance. This isn't game breaking anyway...Detect Magic is a first level ritual spell for a reason. It's very good in very specific situations. Every other time it's just not meaningful.




Make it so they -CAN- do it.. but there is no advantage to them doing it.

I'm not trying to jump on you specifically, but I see similar things to this a lot. I just want to say I think it's dangerous to DM this way. You run the risk of countering every advantage your players try to accrue. And that stifles creativity as well as taking some of the most fun parts of the game away. Saying they can do something and then stacking up negative side effects to the degree that they no longer want to do it is the same as saying they can't do it. Better to just say they can't do it outright in my experience. Even if you're going against a very clear RAW, you can do that as a DM if it fits your game better. Just make sure the players understand it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Spell casting doesn't count like navigating or foraging. It it did, it would say so somewhere in the section on casting spells, or in the section on concentration, or the section on paying attention for threats.

That's a fairly significant impact that spellcasting to just assume happens when it's not anywhere in the rules, and when they specifically did call out other things denying the ability to detect threats.

I mean, I'm all in favor in general of saying "this requires as much attention out of combat as foraging, navigating, tracking or mapping". I've said it myself many times. But you're talking about a major nerf to spellcasting in combat that's not mentioned anywhere. Because the spellcasting for rituals follows the same rules as casting spells in combat, including the rules for multiple round casting & concentration.

I don't take those as exhaustive lists, more as suggested examples. And I'm fine with letting them use passive perception (but was confused because I remembered the wording differently). Passive perception in combat only comes up with people hiding, which, in my experience, isn't as common during combat as before combat (ambushes).

I have no problem letting people move normally while casting unless the spell's nature constrains the motion. That's the default in combat and out.

[bobofwestgate]

My opinion.

A wizard who mumble while walking is not really an problem for the rest. Except if he is speaking clear and loud.

Why limit the travel speed, everyone of us is very well able to mutter some words while going fast.

Fail on passive perception is fine, but why disadvantage on initiative checks (Not even sure if you can have disadvantage here).

And which group rely on passive/active perception checks of an wizard :). It's not that he's alone in the party.

It's not like he's reading an book while walking (and i do this pretty often IRL, btw.)

I just dont think anyone would perform a ritual back to back for a whole marching day.

Except that he is reading a book. Going off the ritual caster feat, The spells are written in a ritual book, which you must have in hand while casting one of them. It's fair to assume that for a wizard who has ritual casting naturally would have to have their spellbook in hand to use rituals. Since the entire purpose of rituals is that they aren't memorized and taking up a slot in your prepared list

[Tubben]

Except that he is reading a book. Going off the ritual caster feat, The spells are written in a ritual book, which you must have in hand while casting one of them. It's fair to assume that for a wizard who has ritual casting naturally would have to have their spellbook in hand to use rituals. Since the entire purpose of rituals is that they aren't memorized and taking up a slot in your prepared list

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23112934&postcount=38

[bobofwestgate]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23112934&postcount=38

I never said anything about them being able to move or not. I posted about the fact that they do have to have their spellbook out.

[sightlessrealit]

Nope. There is a reason why 5. edition made this a first level spell and a ritual. Stuff like this bogs down the gameplay and opens the avenue for all kinds of odd requests that root their legality on "But you allowed Bob to cast all the time."

And do you really want to interrupt scene exposition every time for Bob, the special mage, to explain which auras of magic he sees and where? I do not think so.

Yes actually I would. Why wouldn't I tell Bob the special mage what magic auras they see?

[Tanarii]

Except that he is reading a book. Going off the ritual caster feat, The spells are written in a ritual book, which you must have in hand while casting one of them. It's fair to assume that for a wizard who has ritual casting naturally would have to have their spellbook in hand to use rituals. Since the entire purpose of rituals is that they aren't memorized and taking up a slot in your prepared list
Ritual casting for wizards does not require reading from your spellbook, nor having it in hand, nor having in on you. You just need to have scribed it into your spellbook.

I'll agree if that's called out as kinda janky, but thats the RAW

[JackPhoenix]

You think it's that way, thats all.

In 5e it's not like that, in 5e you can move and get attacked while casting an spell.
I allready wrote, you can houserule that however you like. But RAW its pretty clear, and i posted that a few post above.

Yes, and you have to roll Concentration check if you take damage or lose that spell if you do. It's not a houserule, it's RAW.

And perhaps you should read what you've posted, if you want to use it as an argument: "Your DM may rule that certain aspects of travel do interfere, but that will be situational."

[Beelzebubba]

Crazy. You can short rest while walking or riding a horse.

"A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

I don't see moving in there. I couldn't find it in Sage Advice either. Where is that in RAW?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Going back to the passive perception thing:

Here's the PHB quote:


Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM's permission.

The four listed ones are navigate, map, track, and forage.

From this, if you're doing something else, you don't get passive Perception. You may be doing one of those other things. Those are not an exclusive list of ways you can be distracted. You could be daydreaming, talking to someone else, reading a book, etc. It's up to the DM to decide if continually casting a spell counts as "turning their attention to other tasks." If it was a one-time thing for a few minutes, I'd probably rule not. If it's 50% of the time, like running ritual detect magic constantly, I'd probably rule that it is a distraction (or maybe roll a die--50% chance of being distracted). You can still do it, but you're going to be surprised if someone tries to sneak up on you while you're casting.

[Tanarii]

So what you're saying is people that cast spells in combat doesn't get to use passive perception?

Because casting in combat uses the same rules as casting out of combat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

So what you're saying is people that cast spells in combat doesn't get to use passive perception?

Because casting in combat uses the same rules as casting out of combat.

Not necessarily, because those rules I quoted only belong to the travel portion. Combat is a different beast. Beware of extrapolation from one rule to another.

But if you were casting a multi round spell in combat, as opposed to merely concentrating on an already cast one, I would consider denying passive perception. I'd take it case by case. Certainly not something that comes up often, casting multi round spells + needing passive perception at the same time.

Can't be surprised, and noticing things in the combat area is usually done automatically if it's possible (for resolution speed of nothing else). I guess if someone's trying to hide in combat?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also, sneaking past or ganking the mage while he's distracted by his ritual has a long tradition. PCs rarely cast such spells in combat, so the only time it gets used against them is an ambush. In which case, you should be more careful about where you settle down to ritual cast. In dangerous areas you might even have to use a spell slot. Or post guards.

It does allow the party to get the drop on enemies, which is a good thing in my book.

And the rules are very clear. You only get pp when the DM says you do. It's entirely at the DMs discretion, any expectations you have are your problem.

[Tanarii]

Not necessarily, because those rules I quoted only belong to the travel portion. Combat is a different beast. Beware of extrapolation from one rule to another.

But if you were casting a multi round spell in combat, as opposed to merely concentrating on an already cast one, I would consider denying passive perception. I'd take it case by case. Certainly not something that comes up often, casting multi round spells + needing passive perception at the same time.

Can't be surprised, and noticing things in the combat area is usually done automatically if it's possible (for resolution speed of nothing else). I guess if someone's trying to hide in combat?The rules for spellcasting are in the spellcasting chapter. They apply equally to combat and noncombat. You're the one extrapolating by applying a rule not part of the spellcasting rules to spellcasting. I can see where a certain logic might say: but its non-combat so I should apply the adventuring rule, because I personally deem it to be distracting. But you'd think they'd make some reference in the spellcasting rules to it being distracting in that case, neh?

Even more extrapolation if you apply a non-combat rule not just to spellcasting out of combat, but also to spellcasting in combat.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The rules for spellcasting are in the spellcasting chapter. They apply equally to combat and noncombat. You're the one extrapolating by applying a rule not part of the spellcasting rules to spellcasting. I can see where a certain logic might say: but its non-combat so I should apply the adventuring rule, because I personally deem it to be distracting. But you'd think they'd make some reference in the spellcasting rules to it being distracting in that case, neh?

Even more extrapolation if you apply a non-combat rule not just to spellcasting out of combat, but also to spellcasting in combat.

No, I'm applying a passive perception rule to passive perception. That says "if distracted, no PP." By your standard, reading a book doesn't diminish passive perception, because it's not specified.

To be more precise, the travel rules are the only ones that govern when you can use passive perception and when you can't. There are no rules anywhere else that govern it, only those that reference it (PHB 177, which explicitly refers to the adventuring section), so those control all the time. You don't need a specific mention in the spell-casting rules, because they're already covered under the general case--the DM decides when you get passive perception. The end.

It even calls out that people in the middle rank may not (at the DMs discretion) get to use PP, even if they're paying attention.

So to summarize--

The rules grant the DM full flexibility to use PP. The player has no say in it, whatsoever, except by choosing actions.

The rules state that distraction is a good reason to deny PP. They also specify 4 things (explicitly non-exclusive) that you can do instead of paying attention.

Active spell-casting being distracting is a longstanding tradition, both in genre and in game.

It's something that dominantly helps the PCs.

It also rarely comes up--PP once combat has started is pretty darn rare. Combine that with the fact that almost no one casts multi-round spells (note: not concentrates on spells but casts spells with cast time > 1 action) in combat. Even readying a spell doesn't count--that's just concentration. You're not actively casting the whole time. Especially since the next casting time above 1 action is 1 minute, which is forever in combat.

And note that I'm not saying that you must lose PP while casting, but merely that it's allowable to deny PP while casting. Since PP use is entirely in the hands of the DM by RAW...that's a trivial statement.

[Tanarii]

Your logic falls appart at "if distracted, no PP". The spellcasting rules do not say it is distracting. Theyre quite detailed. Unlike reading a book, which there are no rules for. But is somewhat similar to mapping, if we compare to the examples.

You're starting with "spellcasting is distracting" as a premise. But there's no justification for that premise in 5e.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Your logic falls appart at "if distracted, no PP". The spellcasting rules do not say it is distracting. Theyre quite detailed. Unlike reading a book, which there are no rules for. But is somewhat similar to mapping, if we compare to the examples.

You're starting with "spellcasting is distracting" as a premise. But there's no justification for that premise in 5e.

And you're reading an inclusive (by explicit statement) list as an exclusive one. And requiring specific text in the spell-casting section. Neither of which are good readings--one is foreclosed by the text itself, the other puts the onus on the wrong section.

And I'm not saying that all spellcasting is distracting (as a rule). I'm saying that a DM can, if he feels the circumstances warrant it, determine that some spellcasting is distracting. Because, you know, the rules for using PP are left entirely up to the DM's judgement. Heck, they can just declare people surprised/not surprised or hidden/not hidden without comparing PP at all. Because PP is a tool for DMs, not an entitlement of characters. Players do not call for checks. Players describe actions that the DM then maps to particular mechanics, including checks. That's a basic part of the game.

And there's lots of justification--it's a time-honored trope that dramatically expands the number of cool things the party can do and expands the types of set-pieces they can encounter. In 5e, that's justification enough. We don't need an explicit rule for things like this.

[RSP]

From the RAW:

"Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM’s permission."

The plain English of this is a Player is either watching for danger, or turning their attention to a different task. It's one or the other. Casting a ritual would be a task other than watching for danger, and RAW, would mean that character doesn't get passive Perception checks.

[Tanarii]

And there's lots of justification--it's a time-honored trope that dramatically expands the number of cool things the party can do and expands the types of set-pieces they can encounter. In 5e, that's justification enough. We don't need an explicit rule for things like this.
In short, you're using a time honored trope to unevenly penalize restrict spellcasters in a way that isn't required in the books.

It's inconsistent, not justified by the rules, and based on preconceptions.

Edit: penalize is the wrong word. It's certainly a way to restrict ritual casting out of combat if you feel that spellcasting should work in a certain way. I just think it's better to just avoid the ringamarole and tell a PC not to be a putz if you feel they are gaming the rules.

[RSP]

In short, you're using a time honored trope to unevenly penalize restrict spellcasters in a way that isn't required in the books.

It's inconsistent, not justified by the rules, and based on preconceptions.

Edit: penalize is the wrong word. It's certainly a way to restrict ritual casting out of combat if you feel that spellcasting should work in a certain way. I just think it's better to just avoid the ringamarole and tell a PC not to be a putz if you feel they are gaming the rules.

Under the header Activities While Traveling, the rules list activities a character can do while traveling. The end of that section is titled Other Activities. Casting a Ritual is not listed in the activities of that section, therefore, it falls under Other Activities. Other Activities a) do not allow a Passive Perception check from the character, and b) are only allowed at the DM's discretion ("However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM’s permission.")

I'm not sure how you can come up with a different interpretation of the RAW.

[Tubben]

Under the header Activities While Traveling, the rules list activities a character can do while traveling. The end of that section is titled Other Activities. Casting a Ritual is not listed in the activities of that section, therefore, it falls under Other Activities. Other Activities a) do not allow a Passive Perception check from the character, and b) are only allowed at the DM's discretion ("However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM’s permission.")

I'm not sure how you can come up with a different interpretation of the RAW.

Everything is only with DM permission. Using that argument, makes a discussion void :)

We can talk about: "Can you do this or that by RAW or maybe RAI".

The DM can permit everything by RAW.

[RSP]

Everything is only with DM permission. Using that argument, makes a discussion void :)

We can talk about: "Can you do this or that by RAW or maybe RAI".

The DM can permit everything by RAW.

Rule 0 is always in place, yes, but that's different than the RAW of a rule stating doing something other than what's listed being up to the DM.

Rule 0 can prevent a Player from choosing the Wizard as a class for their character, that's different than the rule of what you can do while traveling.

[Zalabim]

So what you're saying is people that cast spells in combat doesn't get to use passive perception?

Because casting in combat uses the same rules as casting out of combat.

Traveling has different rules than combat. This is evident in many situations. One of the ways they differ is that, when traveling, you (typically, class features notwithstanding) have to forgo watching for danger (being allowed Passive Perception to detect threats) if you want to perform another activity. Movement paces are different too, for another example.

@Beelzebubba: The rules for Long Rests strongly imply that travel is not restful activity by listing it as an adventuring activity.