Houserules just made Manyshot useless, what do?

[PhantasyPen]

So I am planning to run a 3.5 game for my players within the next couple of days, and as I'm going over everything, I just realized one of my houserules has rendered the Manyshot feat pointless.

The Houserule in question:

Making a full attack action (but not a full-round action) using the attacks granted by your BAB (the extra attacks gained at +6, +11, and +16 BAB), is a standard action, attacks from abilities that add more attacks onto this amount (Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc.) are still a full-round action.


Now, I haven't played a proper archer since the 3.0 days, so my memory of Greater Manyshot is fuzzy, but to my knowledge this essentially negates that entire section of the archery feat chain, so my question is: what should I do? Do I just remove Manyshot from the game entirely? Should I buff the feat? If I do the latter option how would you recommend I do so, if I do the former, will it have a negative impact on anything in particular?

[Zaq]

Do you have any players who want to take or who have already taken the feat? If not, then this is an entirely moot point.

If there IS someone actually (not theoretically) in your game who has the feat, then just talk to them and give them a “refund” on the feat, letting them choose something else in its place. (If they for some reason didn’t choose the feat but were given it automatically, like might be the case for a Ranger, you could still let them pick a thematically-related feat without breaking anything.)

You could also, as you kind of mentioned, perhaps juice up the feat to let it do more, if for some reason you’re emotionally invested in the concept of a feat specifically named Manyshot existing in the game, but that seems like more work for potentially dubious payoff.

Basically, this isn’t actually a problem. You made the houserule for a reason. The fact that players have this combat option without spending a feat for the privilege seems to be what you specifically intended with your houserule, no?

[zergling.exe]

Manyshot isn't useless with this houserule, it still gives a greater chance to hit with your third and fourth iteratives, at the cost of a greater penalty on the first and second. If you aren't a Rogue or Ranger you only lose critical hits in exchange for better odds with your final attacks. If you keep it, consider replacing it on the Ranger's 6th level to a feat that works with Favored Enemy.

[Mordaedil]

I suggest you just make a mention to whoever takes it that it is the exception to your houserule. It already has its own mechanical limitations and I think your rule make a bit of sense.

[BowStreetRunner]

Let's take a look at this in the context of the logic behind the relevant feats and then consider the logic behind the house rule and see how they would really interact.


Normal rules allow you to make one attack as a standard action.
You can make additional iterative attacks if you use a full attack action.
Rapid Shot allows you to make one extra attack during a full attack action by accepting a -2 to all attacks.
Manyshot allows you to add one extra arrow in a standard action attack against a single target during a standard action by accepting a -4 penalty on the attack. The extra arrow doesn't get its own attack roll, critical damage, or precision damage. You can add additional arrows at a cumulative -2 per arrow based on the number of iterative attacks you could normally make.
Improved Rapid Shot allows you to ignore the -2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
Greater Manyshot allows you to target the extra arrows from Manyshot at different targets, giving each its own attack roll, critical damage, and precision damage.


So your house rule effectively grants iterative attacks on a standard attack action, unless that action would normally require a full action to give extra attacks, in which case a full attack action is still required.

Rapid shot is unaffected - players simply decide between taking iterative attacks at a cumulative -5 penalty, or taking the extra Rapid Shot plus iterative attacks with an additional -2 on top of everything else. Note that there is no option similar to Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting to add further extra attacks with your iterative attacks.

Manyshot gives an extra attack during a standard action, taking a -4 penalty and giving up the potential for additional critical or precision damage. So a player with +6 BAB could make two attacks at -4 and an iterative attack at (-4 + -5) -9. By the time the player has a +11 BAB they can make two at -4, two at -9, and one at -14.

Improved Rapid Shot is unaffected.

Greater Manyshot is also unaffected.

Since Manyshot works on a standard action, I think it continues to have a great upside and in when applied along with iterative attacks can help produce a fantastic rain of arrows.

[Bronk]

The Houserule in question:

Making a full attack action (but not a full-round action) using the attacks granted by your BAB (the extra attacks gained at +6, +11, and +16 BAB), is a standard action, attacks from abilities that add more attacks onto this amount (Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc.) are still a full-round action.

It looks like your house rule grants a form of pounce, but punishes those who get extra attacks by denying them the pounce ability.

It doesn't completely invalidate multiattack, but it does mostly invalidate it. You could make it worthwhile again by making it so that it instead removes the restriction against additional attacks from your house rule.

Of course, the house rule also invalidates Greater Manyshot right from the start. That could be snipped from your game instead.

[BowStreetRunner]

It looks like your house rule grants a form of pounce, but punishes those who get extra attacks by denying them the pounce ability.

It doesn't completely invalidate multiattack, but it does mostly invalidate it. You could make it worthwhile again by making it so that it instead removes the restriction against additional attacks from your house rule.

Of course, the house rule also invalidates Greater Manyshot right from the start. That could be snipped from your game instead.

I don't think it has to invalidate either. Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc. all either explicitly state they require a full attack to work or at least fail to specifically provide an exception to the full attack rule for extra attacks. Manyshot explicitly states it is a Standard Action. So it could still be a Specific exception to a General house rule.

Pounce also still has value, because it allows attacks that still rely on the full attack action.

[Quertus]

Kudos on starting a thread about potential issues with your own house rule!

Hmmm... I want to hate the house rule, but I just can't manage to do so. It seems to, balance-wise, most benefit those who traditionally need the biggest boost. Although Monks with Flurry of Blows / Lightning Fist may disagree.

I think I'll go for the simplest solution of giving everyone with manyshot a free feat, removing manyshot from any prestige class prerequisites (or giving those forced to take it the aforementioned free feat), etc.

[Telok]

There is one niche for manyshot, it's one attack roll. You can stick things that affect only one roll on it and they affect all the arrows. True Strike is the easiest example, a mid to high level elven Elf domain cleric can get some mileage out of Craft Wand and a +1 Collision composite long bow for a decent ranged version of clericzilla.

[Bronk]

I don't think it has to invalidate either. Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc. all either explicitly state they require a full attack to work or at least fail to specifically provide an exception to the full attack rule for extra attacks. Manyshot explicitly states it is a Standard Action. So it could still be a Specific exception to a General house rule.

Pounce also still has value, because it allows attacks that still rely on the full attack action.

Haste requires a full attack action, and the house rule states that full attack actions can be accomplished with a standard action, not that they don't exist. Rapid shot and Two weapon fighting are just 'you get an extra attack'. Without the second clause of the house rule, all of those things would still work just fine.

There are a few things you can still do with the Manyshot feat, but not much, and the house rule basically says, 'you can kind of pounce, but you can't enjoy it as much as normal'.


I think the easiest way to fix this would be to get rid of the second half of the rule, give everyone the equivalent of pounce, then just tell them that some feats aren't as special as before. That opens up different feats for them to choose! Everyone has fun.

[BowStreetRunner]

Haste requires a full attack action, and the house rule states that full attack actions can be accomplished with a standard action, not that they don't exist. Rapid shot and Two weapon fighting are just 'you get an extra attack'. Without the second clause of the house rule, all of those things would still work just fine.

There are a few things you can still do with the Manyshot feat, but not much, and the house rule basically says, 'you can kind of pounce, but you can't enjoy it as much as normal'.


I think the easiest way to fix this would be to get rid of the second half of the rule, give everyone the equivalent of pounce, then just tell them that some feats aren't as special as before. That opens up different feats for them to choose! Everyone has fun.

The real issue is the wording of the house rule, which is easily fixed.

"Making a standard attack action, a character may use the extra attacks (iterative) granted by their BAB (the extra attacks gained at +6, +11, and +16 BAB). All other forms of extra attacks still follow the normal rules.

[PhantasyPen]

Kudos on starting a thread about potential issues with your own house rule!

Hmmm... I want to hate the house rule, but I just can't manage to do so. It seems to, balance-wise, most benefit those who traditionally need the biggest boost. Although Monks with Flurry of Blows / Lightning Fist may disagree.

I think I'll go for the simplest solution of giving everyone with manyshot a free feat, removing manyshot from any prestige class prerequisites (or giving those forced to take it the aforementioned free feat), etc.

Thank you, I honestly wanted to just open a thread in Homebrew asking for people to help me look for potential pitfalls, but given the general optimization level of my party, it didn't seem worth it to do so until they actually learn how to exploit the rules that were already there. I actually had one player make a Ranger, which is why I threw this thread up when I realized that I was going to invalidate one of her feats. In the end I just told her to take Improved Rapid Shot instead.

As for the thing about monk, yeah Flurry of Blows still gets the shaft, which I was painfully aware of as I wrote up this houserule, but it's not like anyone in my party tries to play a monk anyways besides me, and I prefer the PHB2 ACF that replaces FoB.


It looks like your house rule grants a form of pounce, but punishes those who get extra attacks by denying them the pounce ability.

It doesn't completely invalidate multiattack, but it does mostly invalidate it. You could make it worthwhile again by making it so that it instead removes the restriction against additional attacks from your house rule.

Of course, the house rule also invalidates Greater Manyshot right from the start. That could be snipped from your game instead.

Pounce (Ex) is an ability that allows a creature to apply its full-attack routine to the end of a charge action, which grants a whole host of bonuses on its own (namely the valorous enchantment), my houserule does not grant something of that power level I don't think.

How does this invalidate the Multiattack feat? Multiattack is made to reduce the penalties for using secondary natural weapons from -5 to -2, and the only way to get it is to have a ton of natural attacks to begin with. I'm just a bit confused by this paragraph in general, can you please explain what you mean?


The real issue is the wording of the house rule, which is easily fixed.

"Making a standard attack action, a character may use the extra attacks (iterative) granted by their BAB (the extra attacks gained at +6, +11, and +16 BAB). All other forms of extra attacks still follow the normal rules.


That is quite a bit easier to read that my original statement, I'll have to go and fix the document I've got my houserules all stored in.