Advice on running a lvl 30 Campaign

[Obscuraphile]

So, I've just finished season 2 of the anime Overlord and the idea of running a campaign with incredibly powerful PCs with a large base of operations who have been dumped into a foreign universe appeals to me. However I have limited experience with the Epic Level rule set and wonder if I could manage such a campaign without people getting bored.

Thoughts and advice welcome.

[Venger]

Aside from "don't," I assume.

The rules don't work very well pre-epic. They break down entirely at that level. Epic spellcasting means you can essentially do whatever you want, and as a gm, it's very difficult to anticipate what your players will be capable of.

The listed epic monsters are a complete joke, and players will be able to bulldoze them if they're anywhere near competent. As a result, to challenge them regularly, you'll probably need to make monsters or enemy npcs on your own rather than using stuff out of the book as it were, so factor in more prep time.

You can recreate whatever anime you like without going pre-epic, and just starting your players out at highish levels.

[Arcanist]

Thoughts and advice welcome.

Since "don't" was already said, I'm just gonna politely say that you MIGHT want to just whole heartedly throw the rules out the window and focus primarily on roleplaying and make the primary adventure and struggle of your players being the trials and tribulations of being nearly god-like entities in a very mortal world.

To say your players are basically the Justice League in terms of problem solving capabilities, would be an understatement to say the very least.

[Obscuraphile]

Aside from "don't," I assume.

The rules don't work very well pre-epic. They break down entirely at that level. Epic spellcasting means you can essentially do whatever you want, and as a gm, it's very difficult to anticipate what your players will be capable of.

The listed epic monsters are a complete joke, and players will be able to bulldoze them if they're anywhere near competent. As a result, to challenge them regularly, you'll probably need to make monsters or enemy npcs on your own rather than using stuff out of the book as it were, so factor in more prep time.

You can recreate whatever anime you like without going pre-epic, and just starting your players out at highish levels.

Yes, aside from that.

I really don't have a problem with epic spellcasting being super powerful, and doing this online makes it easier to react when the unexpected happens. I was thinking of offering noncasters templates to allow them to gain special powers that spellcasters would have a harder time accessing.

I have no problem making my own antagonists, but essentially if the party gets in a fight it will pretty much steamroll anything. That's sort of the idea. So then of course I will need players who have unconventional goals that require something other than "I reduce it to extra crispy dust".

[Obscuraphile]

Since "don't" was already said, I'm just gonna politely say that you MIGHT want to just whole heartedly throw the rules out the window and focus primarily on roleplaying and make the primary adventure and struggle of your players being the trials and tribulations of being nearly god-like entities in a very mortal world.

To say your players are basically the Justice League in terms of problem solving capabilities, would be an understatement to say the very least.

Okay, but without a mechanical basis how would I establish a common concept of what is on the table as far as capabilities? I would really prefer not to have someone make the flash and someone make superman, for example. One is useful in a lot of situations the other is the perfect tool in all situations.

[unseenmage]

I am told the Exalted ruleset gives a very "epic" feel to a game as it is literally built for the players to be practical gods among men.

[theblasblas]

How about, all your PCs have a leadership feat and they use their Cohorts to actually play the game, while the epic level characters watch on using Divination spells throwing along an Epic spell when their cohort needs it? Have a Xenophobic overdeity be keeping watch of the world, and if your PCs reveal themselves too much the overdeity takes action.

Just make sure your players are up for the idea though.

[martixy]

Disclaimer: While I haven't gotten to epic in my game I do plan to.

But I've thought about it on an academic level. I feel like it is possible, you just have get a bit creative with the challenges. Like, if rules-mechanical obstacles don't work, use other, more meta aspects of the game, such as threats to things they care about, other than their own persons(helps if you don't start the campaign at L30, but established a world the players care about before that).
Another thing: Use scale at... scale. However strong individually, your PCs are still individuals. So, can't be in all places at once, can't do everything at once. So have things happen at scales that require a more strategic approach. Create 3 simultaneous invasions in 3 different parts of the world or something. Just get grand with your plots and schemes. Spread em thin and far. Force choices over what to save, and what to lose. At L30, they're not the grunt workers anymore, they don't have to fight in the trenches/dungeons, they're the decision makers, the fate spinners.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I've considered this many many times as well, and the only things I came up with were:

1) Nothing Ainz does is epic magic in D&D, most of it seems level 6 or lower.
2) "Martial Arts" are fairly well encompassed in Tome of Battle, maybe consider creating a new school or two to fully take on all the various things you want.
3) Ainz seems to be a level 15-20 Lich Wizard, the rest seem to be levels 10-15 demon or other outsider, depending on their role in Nazarak.

I've been working on finding analogs in D&D to all of the spells I saw or read about in the Anime/Manga, and most of them have been level 3 or lower, with the occasional one or two level 4-6. Super Tier magic is level 7+ essentially. What I think you should do it run the game pre-epic, don't mess with epic spellcasting since it isn't the same as the super tier magic in Overlord. Change casting times for level 7+ to fit what you think seems accurate to the show to be super tier magic, throw in an expensive, rare magic tiem that can decrease that casting time (like the hour glass from the final episode of Season 1).

To effectively recreate the other characters, like Sebas, you'll probably need to gestalt a standard martial character (such as Monk) with a Martial Adept (such as Swordsage) and grant them a pretty powerful template, possibly a homebrewed template (Blessing of Lord Ainz or something) that buffs the physical attributes of the character significantly (+X Str/Dex/Con, +Y Int/Wis/Cha).

My last suggestion, specifically with making an Overlord themed game, don't let anyone play Ainz... You play Ainz as the DM if your playing as members of the Tomb of Nazarak. This will just alleviate a lot of stress and will make sure that no one player feels overly favored AND lets you play the puppeteer as Ainz does.

[Venger]

I am told the Exalted ruleset gives a very "epic" feel to a game as it is literally built for the players to be practical gods among men.

are you talking about the rpg exalted, or playing a character using tools from boed?

[martixy]

are you talking about the rpg exalted, or playing a character using tools from boed?

The RPG.
Blabla.

[unseenmage]

are you talking about the rpg exalted, or playing a character using tools from boed?

The RPG Exalted.
Though I've never played I have a friend who is a strong advocate for epic-like shenanigans using that game.

[legomaster00156]

At this level, as mentioned, the rules break down. I would suggest finding a system that better handles ultra-powerful PC's (usually one with much lighter rules), or just ignoring the rules entirely and freestyling it.

[AvatarVecna]

"I'm wanting to run a lvl 30 game cuz anime, any advice?"

"Yeah, don't. Okay, but a bit more seriously: don't, play pre-epic instead."

"Seconding don't. More seriously: don't play 3.5, play freeform."

"Uh, okay, anything besides 'don't'?

"Yeah, don't play 3.5, play Exalted."

"Tell your players they're playing epic, when they'll be playing the non-epic cohorts of their epic PCs, who largely remain uninvolved. So I guess my advice is also 'don't'."

*a post actually attempting to answer the question rather than dismiss the question*

"The stuff in that anime isn't epic, so don't play epic just to replicate it."

"Which exalted, the one that's a pseudo-epic game system or the 3.5 thing that has nothing to do with epic play?"

"...the first one, clearly."

"They clearly meant the first one, and I'll second playing Exalted instead of epic 3.5 cuz my friend swears by it."

"Don't, play some system that does this better, or just freestyle."

Speaking as somebody who's been in the process of crafting a character for a tristalt 30 game with a good amount of homebrew on all sides, here's the advice I have for the OP:

1) Establish A Gentlemen's Agreement

Presuming that this campaign you have in mind isn't just a bunch of people wanting to have a chargen circle-jerk, you all actually want to play the game, and have fun doing that. I urge you, implore you, to figure out what "play the game, and have fun doing it" means to your party. Before you let people loose to build characters ranging from Pippin to Pun-Pun, establish what kind of game you're wanting to play as a group, so that people have an idea of what's too far and what's not far enough. If one person shows up to the table with an epic samurai getting uncapped Iaijutsu Focus on every attack in a dual-wielding full attack routine that they pounce with every turn along with great cleave, another dude shows up with the Hulk, another dude shows up with a Bard/Paladin/Mystic Theurge with a cool backstory, and another shows up with a Batman Wizard, there's going to be problems.

2) Ruling Decisions Are Not Contracts

Your players may come to you with a request for a weird ruling on some odd mechanic interaction, or ask for a homebrew thing that helps tie their build together. If they don't volunteer details on why they want this thing or what result they want from the ruling, ask them for those details; the ones that are chargening in good faith with the Gentlemen's Agreement won't mind, while the rules lawyers will be reluctant or get defensive about discussing the fine print of the request with you. This leads to the next part of this point: if you say "sure" to something, and later down the line it turns out that thing you said "sure" to ends up unbalancing things in a way that threatens the Gentlemen's Agreement, you're well within your rights to reverse your decision for the good of the group's enjoyment. It's okay to admit you made a bad call, or that you didn't understand the implications of a request/question as thoroughly as you thought you did; if your players are mature, and weren't trying to pull a fast one, they'll accept this change in ruling.

3) Don't Be Afraid To Change Things

Some classes are a great deal more powerful than others, and some have problems even functioning past about 10th level. My advice on this front would generally be to make small changes to classes in order to bring them closer to low T2, T3, and high T4. Additionally, players going for more powerful/versatile classes should be encouraged to figure out how they'll play without accidentally making most of the group pointless. One good way of dealing with this, if you're not wanting to do a great deal of work rebalancing, Grod_The_Giant has a homebrew thread filled with good ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329161) that includes a bunch of classes which, in addition to buffing some of the less powerful classes, also makes most casters less powerful/versatile by making them fixed list (usually with a theme) to prevent the usual problems of "a wizard can do basically anything", as well as giving actual class features to give casters a reason not to just PrC out as soon as possible.

4) Figure out how you wanna deal with Epic Spellcasting

There are three primary problems with epic spellcasting: not everybody gets it, it sucks if it's not being abused, and it's basically impossible to deal with if it is being abused. Interestingly enough, all three of these problems are dealt with in a massive epic homebrew thread by a Playgrounder (Realms Of Chaos with their Librim Eternia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756)): all of their epic PrCs get some access to epic spellcasting, non-full-caster style PrCs get limited seed access, but get those seeds cheaper, and they establish some rules for preventing epic spellcasting from being abused too much (basically no permanent spells, no stone tablet making, and mitigation increases the spell DC for development purposes while decreasing only for casting purposes). This allows everybody to make useful-but-not-overwhelming effects that align with their fluff, prevents mitigation from giving you free spells (in fact, making a spell easier to cast now makes it more expensive to learn, which makes more sense), and stops epic spellcasting from further locking non-casters out of the game. You'll need to get creative with fluffing, but I'm sure your players will find interesting ways to fluff their custom abilities.

[AnimeTheCat]

"I'm wanting to run a lvl 30 game cuz anime, any advice?"

"Yeah, don't. Okay, but a bit more seriously: don't, play pre-epic instead."

"Seconding don't. More seriously: don't play 3.5, play freeform."

"Uh, okay, anything besides 'don't'?

"Yeah, don't play 3.5, play Exalted."

"Tell your players they're playing epic, when they'll be playing the non-epic cohorts of their epic PCs, who largely remain uninvolved. So I guess my advice is also 'don't'."

*a post actually attempting to answer the question rather than dismiss the question*

"The stuff in that anime isn't epic, so don't play epic just to replicate it."

"Which exalted, the one that's a pseudo-epic game system or the 3.5 thing that has nothing to do with epic play?"

"...the first one, clearly."

"They clearly meant the first one, and I'll second playing Exalted instead of epic 3.5 cuz my friend swears by it."

"Don't, play some system that does this better, or just freestyle."

Speaking as somebody who's been in the process of crafting a character for a tristalt 30 game with a good amount of homebrew on all sides, here's the advice I have for the OP:

1) Establish A Gentlemen's Agreement

Presuming that this campaign you have in mind isn't just a bunch of people wanting to have a chargen circle-jerk, you all actually want to play the game, and have fun doing that. I urge you, implore you, to figure out what "play the game, and have fun doing it" means to your party. Before you let people loose to build characters ranging from Pippin to Pun-Pun, establish what kind of game you're wanting to play as a group, so that people have an idea of what's too far and what's not far enough. If one person shows up to the table with an epic samurai getting uncapped Iaijutsu Focus on every attack in a dual-wielding full attack routine that they pounce with every turn along with great cleave, another dude shows up with the Hulk, another dude shows up with a Bard/Paladin/Mystic Theurge with a cool backstory, and another shows up with a Batman Wizard, there's going to be problems.

2) Ruling Decisions Are Not Contracts

Your players may come to you with a request for a weird ruling on some odd mechanic interaction, or ask for a homebrew thing that helps tie their build together. If they don't volunteer details on why they want this thing or what result they want from the ruling, ask them for those details; the ones that are chargening in good faith with the Gentlemen's Agreement won't mind, while the rules lawyers will be reluctant or get defensive about discussing the fine print of the request with you. This leads to the next part of this point: if you say "sure" to something, and later down the line it turns out that thing you said "sure" to ends up unbalancing things in a way that threatens the Gentlemen's Agreement, you're well within your rights to reverse your decision for the good of the group's enjoyment. It's okay to admit you made a bad call, or that you didn't understand the implications of a request/question as thoroughly as you thought you did; if your players are mature, and weren't trying to pull a fast one, they'll accept this change in ruling.

3) Don't Be Afraid To Change Things

Some classes are a great deal more powerful than others, and some have problems even functioning past about 10th level. My advice on this front would generally be to make small changes to classes in order to bring them closer to low T2, T3, and high T4. Additionally, players going for more powerful/versatile classes should be encouraged to figure out how they'll play without accidentally making most of the group pointless. One good way of dealing with this, if you're not wanting to do a great deal of work rebalancing, Grod_The_Giant has a homebrew thread filled with good ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329161) that includes a bunch of classes which, in addition to buffing some of the less powerful classes, also makes most casters less powerful/versatile by making them fixed list (usually with a theme) to prevent the usual problems of "a wizard can do basically anything", as well as giving actual class features to give casters a reason not to just PrC out as soon as possible.

4) Figure out how you wanna deal with Epic Spellcasting

There are three primary problems with epic spellcasting: not everybody gets it, it sucks if it's not being abused, and it's basically impossible to deal with if it is being abused. Interestingly enough, all three of these problems are dealt with in a massive epic homebrew thread by a Playgrounder (Realms Of Chaos with their Librim Eternia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756)): all of their epic PrCs get some access to epic spellcasting, non-full-caster style PrCs get limited seed access, but get those seeds cheaper, and they establish some rules for preventing epic spellcasting from being abused too much (basically no permanent spells, no stone tablet making, and mitigation increases the spell DC for development purposes while decreasing only for casting purposes). This allows everybody to make useful-but-not-overwhelming effects that align with their fluff, prevents mitigation from giving you free spells (in fact, making a spell easier to cast now makes it more expensive to learn, which makes more sense), and stops epic spellcasting from further locking non-casters out of the game. You'll need to get creative with fluffing, but I'm sure your players will find interesting ways to fluff their custom abilities.

Not to be rude, but advising against an action is still advice that, given the OP's unfamiliarity with Epic Level Rules and with the overwhelming majority of individuals recommending against playing in epic levels, is probably really good advice. To discount that is probably not the wisest course of action.

Power is relative. If the OP is looking for the players to be overwhelmingly powerful, that can be accomplished pre-epic more effectively than post-epic. Epic Spellcasting is not well written and can be easily used to make the PCs either too powerful (resulting in the bored state the OP was hoping to avoid) or too weak (which would lend itself to not being what the OP was looking for in an overwhelmingly powerful party). Because everything pre-epic is defined to a better degree, using the relative power level of the opposition will still give the equally epic feel. Instead of having a bunch of wizards and sorcerers running around, have adepts and magewrights, being NPCs are the function of those classes after all. If the Party is ECL 15, throw lots of CR 8-10 creatures with a CR 13 or CR 14 creature thrown in there to give them the "Oh, so this is what it's like to take damage" aspect of being overwhelmingly powerful.

Even if the game isn't in "Epic levels" it's entirely possible, and probably better, to create the epic feeling pre-epic. That's all that everyone is saying and the advice that has been provided is "maybe try something more manageable and well put together that still feels right, because 3.5 epic levels are not well written".

It's like a 16 year old saying, "I want advice on how to drive a [insert expensive, high end vehicle]". Most people would advise, "don't do that, first try this to see if you can't get the look and feel you're going for. If that doesn't work, make your way up to that until you get to a place you like".

[Nifft]

AvatarVecna says good stuff above.


But in order to put that good stuff into practice, you need to be pretty comfortable with high-level (non-Epic) play.

Are you? Do you have sufficient experience to put that good stuff into practice?

If not, then consider playing more pre-Epic D&D.

[AvatarVecna]

Not to be rude, but advising against an action is still advice that, given the OP's unfamiliarity with Epic Level Rules and with the overwhelming majority of individuals recommending against playing in epic levels, is probably really good advice. To discount that is probably not the wisest course of action.

I'm not saying it's bad advice, I'm just saying it's amusing how many people are actively trying to answer a completely different question than the one that was asked, especially when the first couple people to put forth "don't" weren't met with "I guess I won't". Epic isn't impossible to balance any more than literally any game is impossible to balance, it just takes effort. People aren't telling the OP not to play epic because it can't be balanced, they're giving the advice of "play something else" because it's easier to dismiss the question than answer it. Is learning a new system necessarily easier than setting up an agreement with my players to not break the game? Given the system, it might be easier, but maybe my players are reasonable people, who knows. But it's definitely easier to tell somebody "play something else" than it is to actually discuss ways of keeping epic more subdued, and I think that's the reason so many people took that route instead. Again, not saying it's not legitimate advice that could solve the OP's problem, but acting like the only way to play epic 3.5 is to not is disingenuous.

EDIT: Additionally, a chorus of "don't"s doesn't do anything for the OP if they're already aware that epic has issues and has decided they'd prefer to work with it than to abandon it for some other path. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but I do know that it can't hurt to actually try and give advice about playing epic on the off-chance that's what they really wanna play.

[Venger]

Super constructive post, Avatarvecna.


I am told the Exalted ruleset gives a very "epic" feel to a game as it is literally built for the players to be practical gods among men.


The RPG.
Blabla.


The RPG Exalted.
Though I've never played I have a friend who is a strong advocate for epic-like shenanigans using that game.

In that case, I agree. I've played Exalted, and that's what it's like. It's a fun game, and is built with anime as a touchstone the same way 3.5 uses lord of the rings. Solid way to recreate overlord

[ViperMagnum357]

Basically what AvatarVecna said:

First and foremost, get all the group on the same page about the sort of game you want to play.

Second, deal with Epic Spellcasting. As written, it is either useless or breaks an already tenuous mechanical balance, and not everyone will have it. There is a link above with acceptable homebrew; I suggest either use that or remove Epic Spellcasting completely from the game.

Third: homebrew. Either give it to everyone to fill in the chinks of their build subject to your approval, or ban it straight up apart from any Epic Spellcasting decisions. Do NOT make it available for only some players.

Fourth, all Epic monsters and most NPCs as written are terrible, so get ready to populate your world from the ground up. That said, many of the actual suggestions in the ELH have merit, once you adjust for a competent group.

Fifth: Assumptions of an Epic world. Scry n' Die is the default assumption for anyone of means, so almost everyone above 15th level will have fortified holdings that block scrying and teleportation, as well as means of scattering a trail that leads back to their domicile. Anyone without the magic on their own will invest a significant chunk of their wealth to do so. Anyone of lower level is likely to attach themselves to either a large group or a powerful patron capable of protecting them-hamlets and cottages dotting the countryside are simply not there, and most people with a choice will live on the move or in a city/fortress/fortified natural redoubt.

[Godskook]

1. 3.5 gets progressively more dysfunctionally weak with levels. By level 30, a lack of training in a skill is a 33-point deficit. Players without investment will be worthless, and players with investment will only be contested by other characters with investment. You do not have good options to fix this within the official ruleset(not counting Gestalt), even with most . The issue is too large.

2. PCs do not get notably more powerful after 17th class level. The only difference between a level 17 straight-wizard and a level 30 prestige-classed wizard is how many useful prestige class features can be added to the build. That's pretty much it.

3. Characters over class-level 17 do not have much, if anything, to be excited about. All the sexiest level-ups are before that. And an RPG partially -lives- for leveling up. Denying your players sexy level-up options is a disfavour to their enjoyment of the option. This is even worse if you ban Epic Spellcasting, which you should.

Combined, those first two facts mean that a Gestalted level 20 character is both approximately as strong as a level 30 character -and- much less potentially dysfunctional.

My suggestion:

Use some sort of progression-gestalt alongside capping their max-level to say....12, 14, or 16, and giving them McGuffins to quest for to unlock later levels.

A Wizard14//Warblade8//Factotum 10 is a fairly cool build, and far less dysfunctional than a normal wizard build, it leaves your players options for sexy level-ups, and stays closer to 3.5's sweet-spot while still giving you truckloads of power.

Personally, I use my own system, Approach:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16FfgVpvPDWm2DAHznP5AU4BRkI3nf_mfBOekEv4750s/edit?usp=sharing

[tstewt1921]

Read through Savage Species and get used to creating/upping monsters to meet the difficulty you need it to be at.

[Obscuraphile]

Interesting comments all around. I was aware that epic level play is rather wonky, hence my creation of this thread for advice. I have played quite a bit of third edition in a range of pre-epic scenarios, with people looking to power-game and people looking to role-play. It would seem that, as ever, spellcasting is one of the primary ways to unbalance the whole system, good to know. I'll look into the proposed fixes.

As for the suggestions to try Exalted, where might I find the rule set. Is this $60 book from DrivethruRPG (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/162759?affiliate_id=13&src=TheOnyxPath) all I need? (I do much prefer my rulebooks in print). Is there a cheaper option out there?

[Venger]

It depends on what edition you'd like to run. Have you decided on that yet? It's been a while since I played, so I don't know what opinions are on all of them or their degree of backwards compatibility.

[Obscuraphile]

I just kind of assumed that it would be best to play the most current edition which appears to be 3rd. It seems that I could get older editions for fractions of the cost though... I've never looked into the system and don't really know anything about it other than I've seen the name and have now been told it has an epic feel and reflects anime shenanigans well.

[Eldan]

In addition to gentlemen's agreement...

Normalize power levels. This is something I do even pre-epic with most groups, but basically: sit down and ask your players how powerful they want to be. Then help them build characters in that level range. Nothing more frustrating than being a Monk 30 in a group with a Wizard 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 10/Incantatrix 10 or something, where you spend your epic skill points to learn to walk on clouds, while the wizard could fly 25 levels ago.

I honestly think a good guideline is "Either everyone has magic or no one does". Magic being a broad term for any supernatural powers here, including things like psionics which have epic support.

[Venger]

I just kind of assumed that it would be best to play the most current edition which appears to be 3rd. It seems that I could get older editions for fractions of the cost though... I've never looked into the system and don't really know anything about it other than I've seen the name and have now been told it has an epic feel and reflects anime shenanigans well.

When dealing with systems besides D&D, going from edition x to edition x+1 doesn't normally result in a completely different game where the two no longer work with each other. It'll be more like the difference from 3.0 to 3.5.

I've only played exalted a handful of times and haven't run it, but I had fun, and it sounds like a good fit for the kind of campaign you'd like. I advise doing some research, seeing if there is much of a difference, and if so which one people seem to like and why, and see whose opinions you agree with.

It's by white wolf, so it's dice pool based, like vampire. It's got wounds instead of hit points, like those sorts of games.

[Eldariel]

PCs do not get notably more powerful after 17th class level. The only difference between a level 17 straight-wizard and a level 30 prestige-classed wizard is how many useful prestige class features can be added to the build. That's pretty much it.

3. Characters over class-level 17 do not have much, if anything, to be excited about. All the sexiest level-ups are before that. And an RPG partially -lives- for leveling up. Denying your players sexy level-up options is a disfavour to their enjoyment of the option. This is even worse if you ban Epic Spellcasting, which you should.

Combined, those first two facts mean that a Gestalted level 20 character is both approximately as strong as a level 30 character -and- much less potentially dysfunctional.


Well not entirely true, there are epic feats you need level 30 to take normally (Epic Counterspell for example) as well as Epic PRCs with relatively cool stuff like Planar Descryer, Agent Retriever, Elven High Mage or Unstoppable Juggernaut. That said, there isn't that much nor that high quality material but some exists.

[Godskook]

Well not entirely true, there are epic feats you need level 30 to take normally (Epic Counterspell for example) as well as Epic PRCs with relatively cool stuff like Planar Descryer, Agent Retriever, Elven High Mage or Unstoppable Juggernaut. That said, there isn't that much nor that high quality material but some exists.

Sure, there's *SOME* stuff up there.

But....

1a. Epic Counterspell is kinda my point. Wizards can already -do- that, just not that often. You're not adding to height of cool-**** a PC can do, you're adding to longevity. It's not different from Improved Spell Capacity in that regard except in volume.

1b. Epic Counterspell could reasonably be on the ban list, as "cannot cast spells while PC has relevant spell slots" is not an interesting or well balanced ability.

2. Agent Retriever is...meh, except for the fact that you can get in as a Ranger. It's mostly Spell-likes that cover casting deficiencies that could've been solved already by level 30. Uncanny Location is slightly better than a spell-like, and Force Sphere is just a really good, but it's almost too good to use in combat, instead being a tool you'd want to save for transporting a defeated foe. The *BIG* problem, though, is that worthy opponents at level 23+ all have methods of rendering it useless as long as they're conscious, and if they're unconscious, how is this different from a bag of holding? Like...that class probably shouldn't be post-epic. Probably more appropriate roughly 10 or so to enter that?

3. Unstoppable Juggernaut? Cannot find that class.

4. Planar Descryer? Do you mean Cosmic Descryer?

5. Elven High Mage is kinda trash without Epic Spellcasting since all it's abilities are based on Epic Spellcasting. Considering I advised banning Epic Spellcasting in the quoted text, I'm sure you'll forgive me for not finding this impressive.

[NineInchNall]

So there are conceits about Overlord that make it work at all, and they need to be considered and accounted for if you want to have a game that approximates that feel.

1) Salaryman Sovereign

Momonga is a highly skilled player and a master of Yggdrasil PVP. However, the scope of the challenge he faces is much grander than any with which he has any prior experience. He's essentially an everyman salaryman, thrust into the realities of rulership, and he has to feel this out as he goes. Thus he makes boneheaded (pun) decisions on occasion, and most of the time he is very cautious about gathering information and testing the waters before making significant moves. For example, this is why he personally fights the Theocracy forces on the outskirts of Carne in episode four rather than let Albedo handle it. He is unsure of the enemy's capacity and doesn't want to risk losing a good servant.

2) Ys Thys Yggdrasil?

Despite broad similarities to the MMO in which Nazarick was built, the world in which Momonga finds himself is also significantly different. This uncertainty further limits the value of Momonga's gameplay experience. He can't be sure that any item he sees functions the same way as in Yggdrasil, and that indeterminacy extends to just about everything in the world. Not only is he unfamiliar with the role of literal ruler, he can't even be sure that his existing knowledge is in fact knowledge. Everything in the world must be carefully explored and approached with caution. Not because he isn't powerful enough to demolish any challenge, but instead because he can't know that he is.

3) There May Be Others

A recurring idea in the series is that Momonga can't be sure that he's the only player rifted in from Yggdrasil. That wouldn't be a constraint on its own, except that he cannot be sure that such a player would be an ally. Thus he is pressured to achieve some measure of his ends covertly.

4) Divination is Limited

This is a biggie. The better part of Momonga's constraints are epistemic. That is, he lacks action-guiding knowledge, and he cannot simply use magic to acquire all the knowledge he needs. He has to rely in large part on actual delegation of actual information-gathering agents, on servants who act as eyes-and-ears in far-off locales.

5) Force Multiplication Takes Time & Resources

Nazarick needs to swell the numbers in its army, but Momonga cannot simply wave his hand and have unlimited troops tomorrow. He can't just make more high-level servants like the named tomb guardians. All the storylines in the series are little adventures aimed at the goal of increasing Nazarick's power and influence. Other means for increasing the Tomb's collective power have to be found by interacting with the world, which in turn refers back to the previous constraints.

[BlackOnyx]

So, I've just finished season 2 of the anime Overlord and the idea of running a campaign with incredibly powerful PCs with a large base of operations who have been dumped into a foreign universe appeals to me.


First off, always happy to see another Overlord fan out there! Fantastic series (anime & LN). Really looking forward to seeing the next couple arcs adapted this summer.


Playing an Overlord themed campaign sounds like it could be a lot of fun as long as you're playing with the "right" kind of players. If your players are the types to draw satisfaction out of political maneuvering and system building, you're off to a good start; combat and leveling, while not necessarily nonexistent, aren't likely to be the focus of the campaign.


If at all possible, I'd recommend having your players go in blind; give them as little information about the premise as possible and avoid discussing the series if others aren't aware of it. As much as I hate the idea of not promoting such a fantastic show, I think it'd be interesting to see how your players adapt without any preconceptions about the premise. That, and if you decide to take any inspiration from the series, you won't have to deal with anyone having meta-knowledge concerning your plans.


As far as actual gameplay and world building goes, I agree with a lot of the points NineInchNall brings up in his post. The reason Overlord works the way it does is largely due to the personality of and circumstances surrounding Momonga himself.


If you want a campaign to feel like Overlord (and not just devolve into session after session of boring NPC beatdowns), you'll need to establish some mechanics to guide (without railroading) your players' actions.


Some example considerations (a few of which NineInchNall mentioned as well):


- Basic premise

This will be an aspect you'll have to decide on right away; are the characters actual wizards and fighters being transported from another plane, or are they avatars from a VR game (or dream) in the real world?

Personally, for something to really have that Overlord feel, I'd recommend the latter (VR /dreamers). Though the "player vs. avatar" knowledge/stats might be a bit tricky to rectify, you could always approach it like they did in Death March to Another World Rhapsody where purchasing skills allows obvious benefits in game, regardless of the "real" person's abilities.


- Unknown world mechanics

It's important that the players realize that the new world they're in isn't the same as their old one. Instituting special mechanics/abilities/items (homebrew or official variants) for NPCs that the PCs don't have access might be one way to do this. For example, if you wanted to play in line with the series, you could make it so only NPCs could make use of ToB.

Exploring a new world is a central theme in Overlord; preparing that kind of experience for your PCs almost goes without saying.


- The promise of (actual) hidden threats

The one aspect you might need to adapt the most for your game is the presence of actual threats—NPCs (however few) that actually do pose a threat to your PCs.

They need not show their heads often (at first), but even just hinting at them—having them sabotage otherwise perfect plans, dispel potent magic, or leave cryptic messages in heavily guarded rooms—will give your players reason to play things cautiously, rather than tossing their weight around as they see fit.

Whether these adversaries are other "players," the new world's actual "gods" or "admins" (I like this concept), or ancient dragons; having select creatures that can approach (or possibly even surpass) your players' powers will provide some much needed tension and intrigue for the campaign. (Not all players are apt to be as cautious a Momonga on their own.)

If you really wanted to make things interesting, having one of your PCs serve as a "mole" could add another level of intrigue to the whole experience.


- Followers, followers, followers

Leadership (or some modified form of it) will likely be a major part of your game. Gathering followers, converting kingdoms, building an empire, this is the reason someone plays an Overlord campaign.

I'd recommend giving your players access to one or two special cohorts and a small host of decent followers. Perhaps stick to T3/T4 classes for these, but allow for some leeway; having capable subordinates is a big part of what makes Overlord work.


- Relative power balance

This is a bit more speculative and will probably take the most fudging/adjusting on your part. Yggsdrasil, though similar to 3.5e, isn't 3.5e. There's some differences that are difficult to get around. As far as what "level" Overlord's characters should be at, there's certainly room for debate.

(I actually started a thread that bled into this topic if you're interested in looking at it. A lot of good discussion there. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?549249-3-5e-Recreating-Nazarick-All-Hail-Ainz-Ooal-Gown )

That said, some suggestions as to how I would play it with existing 3.5e mechanics:

* Use the Spell Points variant from the DMG for players and NPCs

More flexibility with spells, doesn't require extensive daily listing/tracking of available slots.

* Players are 20th level. Epic spellcasting (if allowed at all) is the work of "World Items."

I don't have much experience with epic gameplay, but from what I hear, it can be fairly wonky. Given that pre-epic 3.5e works decently well and has the most support, I'd probably recommend staying within that realm.

That said, if you wanted to allow multiclassing and/or templates to bring your PCs' ECLs up to 30-35, I don't think it would be an issue. (If anything, it would allow for a lot of fun customization.)

Cohorts would probably fall in a few levels lower (5-10 levels below your PCs), and followers a few levels below them.

* Give players Divine Rank 0

Further sets PCs apart from standard NPCs and keeps any uncharacteristically lucky (or unlucky) die rolls from sending things south.

Some traits of Divine Rank 0 include:

>Max HP per HD
>Increased base speed (60' medium)
>Immunities (Transmutation, Ability Damage, Mind-Affecting)
>DR 10/epic
>Immortality

...I also might shoehorn in the "can't critically fail on a 1" that Rank 1 deities usually get if you deem it appropriate

*"New World" NPCs (aside from a few special individuals) max out at ECL 6.

If you really want to show that power gap, capping NPCs at third level spells and/or two attacks is the way to do it. You can certainly shift a few spells around as needed (up or down), but given what we see in the novels, this seems like a good place to make the cut.



On that note, if this idea pans out for you and your group, I'd love to see some more posts on it. Overlord is a great series, and reading through the transcripts of a 3.5e game based on its sounds like a lot of fun. Best of luck!

[Malroth]

Biggest change i would make. Make the Epic spellcasting feat avalible for both Martials and Casters but only supply one Epic spell per time the feat was taken. That way every character could get access to a world altering superpower but slowly and in a predictable manner.

[PokéTriforce]

:confused: Oddly enough, I happen to be running a level-30 campaign.

:roach: And PokéTriforce sucks at it. :roach:

The players are just a couple sessions away from reaching level 31. Since my game is story-based (very few combats), it's running fine. The set-up (specific encounters/traps/combats) are very difficult, though. I use the following books:

All 3 core rule books (PH I, DMG, MM I)
(Expanded) Psionics Handbook
PH II
MM II
MM III
MM IV
MM V
Arms & Equip.
Magic Items Compendium
Deities
Epic
Ghostwalk (for the fun of it)
& Oriental Adventures

Those are the only books I use in my campaigns, anyway. Most monster encounters (unless I put in the work) tend to come from CR 20+ within the Monster Manuals (I - V), Psionics, and Deities. Some of the Ghostwalk monsters work, as well. Epic monsters above CR 25 seem to be a bit too much for the party to handle, right now. Since they haven't reached the area I set up for Oriental, yet, I haven't attempted any of them.

Anyway, that's my 2¢...er, I mean 2 cp.

[Bronk]

So, I've just finished season 2 of the anime Overlord and the idea of running a campaign with incredibly powerful PCs with a large base of operations who have been dumped into a foreign universe appeals to me. However I have limited experience with the Epic Level rule set and wonder if I could manage such a campaign without people getting bored.

Thoughts and advice welcome.

I think epic levels are perfect for what you want to do, and 30 levels gives plenty of leeway for your players to make the characters they want.

For your game world, I agree with some of the others... use truly epic threats such as monsters and NPCs sparingly. Your main story should probably world exploration and setting up a roster of people and groups that your players care about. Most of the time, your game's threats will actually be threats to them, not your players directly.

This might very well mean that your players won't level up super fast, so I'd warn them of that ahead of time. If these characters are dumped in your world from another world, start them out without much equipment, and make getting equipment the equivalent of leveling. The conceit of the game is that they'll metagame the heck out of that, and you should let them if they have fun doing it.

I agree that epic magic can get real silly real quick. However, this is just another aspect of your world that you can customize. I'd say, don't let the players make their own spells. Stick with either the preexisting epic spells, or make the spells yourself, then dole them out with stone tablets. If this was something you wanted to open up to all players, not just magic users, you can let the PCs, due to their special circumstances, have that ability. Maybe they all have a device to slot in a stone tablet, or maybe there's a slot hidden on their body somewhere, and they can use whatever stone tablets they have in there, with perhaps one free use per day minimum, plus extra if they have the relevant magic and skills.

You can decide how closely your world is tied to the fictional game you've set up... You could have everything be DnD normal, but set the dream plane, say, to be a kind of meta area that's close to the game. Maybe it's more of an electronic cyberspace thing, or something like that, and they can use the Lucid Dreaming skill to affect it. It can be a whole separate world few have access to that can have effects that carry over into the world at large. Maybe they can eventually mess with people's character sheets... or find out what some secret house rules are.

[Alabenson]

Regarding epic-level play, I'm going to disagree with the majority opinion in that I think the game doesn't break down nearly as badly as people say once you hit epic levels. With one or two exceptions (epic spellcasting and to a much lesser degree certain epic skills), most of the potential dysfunction you can run into in epic levels would have already been present in pre-epic high level play.
That being said, there are definitely a few questions that you should ask yourself before considering running an epic-level game;
1) How much experience do you have running games in the high to very high level range (15-20)?
2) How much experience do your players have with playing high to very high level characters?
3) How familiar are you with your players and how they would play high to very high level characters?
4) How would you plan to deal with the epic spellcasting rules?

Much of the potential dysfunction in epic level play is going to be player-dependent; some players will be able to manage complex sets of abilities capable of effortlessly negating entire plots, while others are just going to play a level 5 character with bigger numbers. Knowing what your players are capable of, and your own ability to deal with those capabilities, is essential to planning a campaign like this.

[Quertus]

Wow. We've got "epic monsters are pushovers that any remotely competent party can crush without trying" and "my level 30 party has issues with anything over CT 25" in the same thread. If love to hear these two opposing sides swap stories, and describe builds and tactics.

Fortunately, if sounds more like the OP is interested in epic PCs vs E6 opposition.

-----

Kudos to... AvatarVecna? ... For pointing out the importance of the Gentleman's Agreement. If actually argue that it's just about the best thing you can have in any game.

-----

I'm curious if you dropped your standard 3e party into 2e if you couldn't replicate the feel and confusion, particularly if the players are unfamiliar with 2e, you don't tell them what you're doing, etc.

[NineInchNall]

Wow. We've got, "epic monsters are pushovers that any remotely competent party can crush without trying," and, "my level 30 party has issues with anything over CR 25," in the same thread. I'd love to hear these two opposing sides swap stories and describe builds and tactics.

That's the kind of divergent power curves everybody talks about in epic.

[martixy]

Regarding epic-level play, I'm going to disagree with the majority opinion in that I think the game doesn't break down nearly as badly as people say once you hit epic levels. With one or two exceptions (epic spellcasting and to a much lesser degree certain epic skills), most of the potential dysfunction you can run into in epic levels would have already been present in pre-epic high level play.
That being said, there are definitely a few questions that you should ask yourself before considering running an epic-level game;
1) How much experience do you have running games in the high to very high level range (15-20)?
2) How much experience do your players have with playing high to very high level characters?
3) How familiar are you with your players and how they would play high to very high level characters?
4) How would you plan to deal with the epic spellcasting rules?

Much of the potential dysfunction in epic level play is going to be player-dependent; some players will be able to manage complex sets of abilities capable of effortlessly negating entire plots, while others are just going to play a level 5 character with bigger numbers. Knowing what your players are capable of, and your own ability to deal with those capabilities, is essential to planning a campaign like this.


Wow. We've got "epic monsters are pushovers that any remotely competent party can crush without trying" and "my level 30 party has issues with anything over CT 25" in the same thread. If love to hear these two opposing sides swap stories, and describe builds and tactics.

That's part of the problem, innit?

It all depends on how you define "broken", but I'd say trying to run a game where those two cases attempt to coexist will result in a broken game(i.e. dysfunctional beyond salvage). Apart from that, you are right. It isn't as broken as people tend to ramble about. Even epic spellcasting is fine, if you moderate any excessive DC mitigation.


Kudos to... AvatarVecna? ... For pointing out the importance of the Gentleman's Agreement. If actually argue that it's just about the best thing you can have in any game.

I kinda take this for granted with my group now, but I suppose it does bear mentioning. Being that I run a gestalt 3.P game on steroids, this is absolutely vital in ensuring the health of my game.

Currently a 3-woman(ish, one of the PCs is a miniomancer) L5 party regularly takes on, what are supposed to be ECL10+ encounters. You have to know your monsters. You have to play to their strengths. Just relying on the basic game statistics of AC/attack/saves will get your creatures absolutely curbstomped. You have several minds wielding precision-built killing machines against you. You have get creative yourself to challenge them.

[Tindragon]

Wow....

I'm curious if you dropped your standard 3e party into 2e if you couldn't replicate the feel and confusion, particularly if the players are unfamiliar with 2e, you don't tell them what you're doing, etc.

This is NOT a terrible idea. 1e-2e the DM has 99.9% of all decision making power. The 0.01%, keep players at the table if they don't like it. That 0.01%, is the most important piece of any TTRPG.


On the other hand, my limited experience with EPIC play, is that players who run casters, often expect every spell to work like a free wish, or else, try to use wish, to make sure some spell goes more than is intended.

For instance, one caster (divine) simply traded his EPIC spells out for a lot of Gate's and Miracles.... all the time. Basically kept an advanced HD Solar around as a pet, and when something bigger was needed, Gated in an Uvuudaum to seal the deal.


I might suggest a NON-Epic GESTALT campaign, starting around level 15.... and then level it into EPIC?

I've been DMing (GMing many games actually) since 1991. Every time I consider something EPIC, I realize half my players are NOT EPIC players. And a few, really simply loose the will to keep track of their own character mechanics around level 13... seriously. You have to have the right PLAYERS and have the "Gentlemen's Agreement" firmly established to pull off an EPIC play book.

Otherwise, I'd say Gestalt, mid-high range, and give them carte blanche on starting equipment, with higher than normal starting $$. And utilize that to get your over powered anime feel.