Why Don't Intelligent Magic Items Have Monsters?

[unseenmage]

Intelligent Magic Items can and do win command of weak willed wielders.

Why aren't they statted in the books alongside their most likely victim monsters?

Would certainly make more sense AND make Intelligent Magic Item encounters more interesting.

A big thank you to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?559978-Why-don-t-intelligent-monsters-have-magic-items) from whose thread title this thread sprang.

[BowStreetRunner]

I really do wonder why the developers didn't do absolutely everything for the DM. In fact, why do we even need DMs at all?

The last time I ran a game straight out of a published module, they were still called modules and first edition was still the only edition. So I suppose I'm unusual in my feeling that the tools they give us are nice, but our own imagination and creativity should be our greatest asset. I very rarely have monsters that have piles of unsorted treasure just lying around. Almost everything they have is there for a reason other than for PCs to take. And yes, if there is an intelligent magic item out there it usually has been actively looking for the best servant to carry it around, which in many cases means it is currently in control of an appropriate wielder.

[HighWater]

That is nice material for some twist-encounters. I did this once, but it was an Artifact, so that doesn't really count... Also, the PC's didn't notice the extenuating circumstances that guided the Priest's corruption, so... Best not dwell on it.

I personally don't like Intelligent Magic Items though...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
So I suppose I'm unusual in my feeling that the tools they give us are nice, but our own imagination and creativity should be our greatest asset.

Thank you. This is something that seems to have been mainly overlooked in certain recent threads.


Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
I very rarely have monsters that have piles of unsorted treasure just lying around. Almost everything they have is there for a reason other than for PCs to take.

Absolutely this.

In my current campaign, the PCs have been facing primarily humanoid foes, who of course have selected their gear and items for their own benefit, not for random strangers who try to kill them. What random loot there is still has a direct connection to the region and the story.

One way I like to assemble treasure is to browse through Myth-Weavers for low-level characters, assemble them into "parties," and let those be other adventuring groups that the foes have recently killed.

:smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

I really do wonder why the developers didn't do absolutely everything for the DM. In fact, why do we even need DMs at all?

The last time I ran a game straight out of a published module, they were still called modules and first edition was still the only edition. So I suppose I'm unusual in my feeling that the tools they give us are nice, but our own imagination and creativity should be our greatest asset. I very rarely have monsters that have piles of unsorted treasure just lying around. Almost everything they have is there for a reason other than for PCs to take. And yes, if there is an intelligent magic item out there it usually has been actively looking for the best servant to carry it around, which in many cases means it is currently in control of an appropriate wielder.
Honestly, if 3.x consisted of only the core books and maybe a couple more I'd agree with you.

But, since 3.x is so broad and so massive, the less work the GM has to do the better.

That said, this thread was mostly tongue-in-cheek but now that I really think about it Intelligent Magic Items really should have been presented as monster entries instead of the clumps of lists they currently occupy.

[denthor]

Think about what it takes to make such a weapon.

You need to have some sort of being that can/will get rid of the very thing that makes it a being. Its body. The being loses quite a bit of its intelligence wisdom all of its dexterity strength and constitution. If your hiding from justice it makes sense. So most should be evil of some sort, if good it needs to have a mission and will not let anyone get in the way or delay it. You end up with control issues which means you are now subverting another being's will.

I'm not a true fan of intelligent items unless they are activated and only are used as an escape item

[BowStreetRunner]

...Intelligent Magic Items really should have been presented as monster entries instead of the clumps of lists they currently occupy.
They have a monster entry for Animated Object, so really Intelligent Magic Items could easily have been placed among monsters too.

[Crake]

There aren't that many officially published intelligent magic items outside of modules, and ones listed in modules DO tend to have wielders. The weapons of legacy book has a few intelligent magic items with wielders, but all the weapons in that book have wielders beforehand

[Nifft]

Intelligent Magic Items seem to have come from the literary trope of a protagonist who has an intelligent magic item.

The way that the protagonist gets this item seem less explored in fiction, thus it's less discussed in the write-up.

But as BowStreetRunner says, we've got sufficient imagination capability to compensate for that lack.


It's a good idea to have monsters which are controlled by intelligent items, but that's not the only way that intelligent items should exist. It's entirely plausible that an intelligent item is a unique thing that only exists for the protagonist's characterization, or for that of an antagonist.

[Hrugner]

In Pathfinder at least, the result of losing will to an intelligent item isn't enough to warrant even a template really. They probably have a few restrictions on actions they can take, and they would have a negative level due to the alignment difference. If the item has magic jar as one of its daily spells, then I suppose it could magic jar the wielder which I suppose is what you're looking for. At that point you'd need to figure out what it's to hit bonus and saves are, and I'm not really sure how to derive those. We know its caster level is equal to the caster level needed to create the item, and we are told to treat them as constructs.

Magic Item possessed monster template:
replace intelligence wisdom and charisma of creature with those stats of the magic item.
set BAB equal to caster level of the item
set all base saves to CL rounded down.
remove all feats including proficiencies
remove all skill ranks except those granted by the object
Add senses and magical abilities as needed.
Leave everything else the same.

[Thurbane]

Watching LotR trilogy recently, I was wondering if the One Ring was the modern archetype of a magic item trying to control a character? We know OD&D was heavily influenced by the work of Tolkien.

[BowStreetRunner]

Watching LotR trilogy recently, I was wondering if the One Ring was the modern archetype of a magic item trying to control a character? We know OD&D was heavily influenced by the work of Tolkien.I am 100% comfortable with the assumption that intelligent items were partially inspired by the One Ring. However, keep in mind that by the time D&D came on the scene there were other influences out there like Stormbringer from Michael Moorcock's stories, although that one was literally a demon in sword form.

[Psyren]

They likely don't because the intelligent item rules are complex enough on their own that sticking them into statblocks likely wouldn't add much value in terms of parsing out how they work (on top of being yet another statblock full of errors for us to poke holes in.)

But as BowstreetRunner said, intelligent items aren't something you just drop into your world. You have to treat it like any NPC that's going to be part of the party for a long time (possibly even the entire campaign or multiple campaigns) - you need a good reason for it to be there. Even if the intent is for the party to destroy it within moments of meeting it, you should plan for the contingency that they end up wanting to keep it around.


Watching LotR trilogy recently, I was wondering if the One Ring was the modern archetype of a magic item trying to control a character? We know OD&D was heavily influenced by the work of Tolkien.

I mean, talking swords have been around in some pretty old myths, some of which predate Tolkien too. So it's worth asking where he got the idea. (In particular, Tolkien featured a talking sword in Silmarillion that appears to be a pretty direct callback to one such myth, IIRC.)

[BowStreetRunner]

I mean, talking swords have been around in some pretty old myths, some of which predate Tolkien too. So it's worth asking where he got the idea. (In particular, Tolkien featured a talking sword in Silmarillion that appears to be a pretty direct callback to one such myth, IIRC.)
Tolkien unabashedly borrowed ideas from the numerous sagas, eddas, and epic poems that he translated in his day-job before he ever delved into writing fiction. He was heavily influenced by the myths of the Germanic and Norse peoples.

[Hrugner]

There's certainly older intelligent items, like the sword "Asi". There's also older cursed objects that would grant power but take over the will of the holder, such as the Book of Thoth. However, the modern archetype does seem to have narrowed "object of power forged by evil person with intent to cause harm" rather than causing harm due to the power granted, or a creature transforming into the object.

[Telok]

As an intresting thought experiment is it possible to make an item that would take a monster of... say 1/2 the party CR... and make it a credible threat without the item being worth more than that level's WBL difference?

For example can an intelligent magic armor worth less than the difference of the WBL between levels 9 and 10 be powerful enough to take a CR 5 monster and raise it to CR 10?

[ryu]

As an intresting thought experiment is it possible to make an item that would take a monster of... say 1/2 the party CR... and make it a credible threat without the item being worth more than that level's WBL difference?

For example can an intelligent magic armor worth less than the difference of the WBL between levels 9 and 10 be powerful enough to take a CR 5 monster and raise it to CR 10?

Insomuch as CR is a hilariously swingy thing that only vaguely correlates with how threatening any given monster is? Sure. You could almost certainly find a magic item that would make a tough CR 5 more threatening than some CR 10s.

[unseenmage]

Insomuch as CR is a hilariously swingy thing that only vaguely correlates with how threatening any given monster is? Sure. You could almost certainly find a magic item that would make a tough CR 5 more threatening than some CR 10s.

Especially as Intelligent Magic Items can activate their own superpowers.

[Thurbane]

I think there may have been a Ravenloft adventure, possibly pre 3E, where an intelligent item/artifact was the BBEG.

[ksbsnowowl]

SPOILER about a published Eberron module...

Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, which is a fabulous module, by the way, centers around a spy that has forsaken his country, stolen a magic item, and is on the run. The human spy was turned into a vampire and ordered to steal the sword (a war trophy of the Last War). The sword was intelligent, and had a high enough Ego score that it gained control over the fledgling vampire, and is using his handy vampiric abilities to get it back to its homeland. The spy's own country is trying to figure out what is going on, and get the spy and the sword back. The vampire spy's vampiric master is utterly confused as to how/why his vampire minion is disobeying his orders, other countries have heard of the spy backstabbing his own country, and are trying to track him down to glean what info they can from him (not knowing he is a vampire; they just want his classified secrets). A terrorist organization semi-loyal to the sword's country hears about their national war relic going missing with the spy, and are trying to get it for themselves.

Such an awesome module with a great plot, wonderful "set pieces," and a grand adventure. That module is what sold me on Eberron as a campaign setting.

[Quertus]

I one ran a character who, well, was his intelligent sword - the meat puppet never was in control, from the time I introduced the character, until the time my next character assassinated said meat puppet. Does that count?


Think about what it takes to make such a weapon.

You need to have some sort of being that can/will get rid of the very thing that makes it a being. Its body. The being loses quite a bit of its intelligence wisdom all of its dexterity strength and constitution. If your hiding from justice it makes sense. So most should be evil of some sort, if good it needs to have a mission and will not let anyone get in the way or delay it. You end up with control issues which means you are now subverting another being's will.

I'm not a true fan of intelligent items unless they are activated and only are used as an escape item

I once had an aged NPC Wizard use his equally aged familiar as the intellect for a magical item he was crafting as a humane way to put the creature down. And this is how the party wound up with a staff named "Fluffy". :smallbiggrin:

[PhoenixPhyre]

I once had an aged NPC Wizard use his equally aged familiar as the intellect for a magical item he was crafting as a humane way to put the creature down. And this is how the party wound up with a staff named "Fluffy". :smallbiggrin:

I had an NPC wizard who was practicing soul transference magics use his elderly dog Fidelis (which he had Awakened) as the intelligence behind an intelligent, self-maintaining house that later ended up in the PCs hands (well after his death). It was also full of mimic furniture...the wizard had been dabbling in other pursuits. Fun times.

[Quertus]

I had an NPC wizard who was practicing soul transference magics use his elderly dog Fidelis (which he had Awakened) as the intelligence behind an intelligent, self-maintaining house that later ended up in the PCs hands (well after his death). It was also full of mimic furniture...the wizard had been dabbling in other pursuits. Fun times.

I'm not sure if I'd appreciate a house that spun around three times before bedtime, but, otherwise, that sounds like a great plan. :smalltongue:

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm not sure if I'd appreciate a house that spun around three times before bedtime, but, otherwise, that sounds like a great plan. :smalltongue:

Heh. No, Fidelis was a good dog. The Thieves guild got possession of it after his death (since that's the guild of lawyers and judges), but couldn't find anyone who could handle the house for a couple decades. The mimics ate a bunch, and the rest had issues with the walls talking to them. They ended up pawning it onto the PCs as a "reward".

I used the stats of things like animated rugs, cloakers and mimics for a bunch of the furniture. Almost killed a few PCs, too.

[BowStreetRunner]

I once had an aged NPC Wizard use his equally aged familiar as the intellect for a magical item he was crafting as a humane way to put the creature down. And this is how the party wound up with a staff named "Fluffy". :smallbiggrin:
This reminded me of a game I played in where a wizard made an intelligent item from a condemned prisoner given a choice of that or death. The item was in the form of a stuffed bear...the wizard was a young girl. I never was fully sure what to make of the entire situation.

[ryu]

This reminded me of a game I played in where a wizard made an intelligent item from a condemned prisoner given a choice of that or death. The item was in the form of a stuffed bear...the wizard was a young girl. I never was fully sure what to make of the entire situation.

Oh that's just someone cosplaying league of legends. Tell me did she have a particular fondness for fire spells?

[BowStreetRunner]

Oh that's just someone cosplaying league of legends. Tell me did she have a particular fondness for fire spells?
Why yes, she did. She was heavily oriented around fire spells. I'm not familiar with the character in league of legends though.

EDIT: Aaaand her character name was Annie and the Bear was Mr Tibbers. Well! Now I know where that all came from! LOL And here I just thought she had an interesting imagination.

[ryu]

Why yes, she did. She was heavily oriented around fire spells. I'm not familiar with the character in league of legends though.

EDIT: Aaaand her character name was Annie and the Bear was Mr Tibbers. Well! Now I know where that all came from! LOL And here I just thought she had an interesting imagination.

Art is plagiarism. People break it apart and recombine it in new forms to amuse themselves. Sometimes it's just more blatant than others. This is one of those times.

[Psyren]

SPOILER about a published Eberron module...

Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, which is a fabulous module, by the way, centers around a spy that has forsaken his country, stolen a magic item, and is on the run. The human spy was turned into a vampire and ordered to steal the sword (a war trophy of the Last War). The sword was intelligent, and had a high enough Ego score that it gained control over the fledgling vampire, and is using his handy vampiric abilities to get it back to its homeland. The spy's own country is trying to figure out what is going on, and get the spy and the sword back. The vampire spy's vampiric master is utterly confused as to how/why his vampire minion is disobeying his orders, other countries have heard of the spy backstabbing his own country, and are trying to track him down to glean what info they can from him (not knowing he is a vampire; they just want his classified secrets). A terrorist organization semi-loyal to the sword's country hears about their national war relic going missing with the spy, and are trying to get it for themselves.

Such an awesome module with a great plot, wonderful "set pieces," and a grand adventure. That module is what sold me on Eberron as a campaign setting.

Heh, that's a cool premise. It also makes me realize an interesting point, namely that Intelligent Item Ego can dominate mindless creatures.

[unseenmage]

Heh, that's a cool premise. It also makes me realize an interesting point, namely that Intelligent Item Ego can dominate mindless creatures.

Yup, putting Intelligent Magic Items into the hands of your Golems is a neat way to 'Awaken' them.

[Quertus]

This reminded me of a game I played in where a wizard made an intelligent item from a condemned prisoner given a choice of that or death. The item was in the form of a stuffed bear...the wizard was a young girl. I never was fully sure what to make of the entire situation.

Annie being one of my favorite LoL characters, I was highly suspicious I knew what was going on. I'm glad it was confirmed.

[Thurbane]

If the intelligent items is a Figurine of Wondrous Power, it can be it's own monster. :smallwink:

[unseenmage]

If the intelligent items is a Figurine of Wondrous Power, it can be it's own monster. :smallwink:

The PF version even has a 'grow legs and a move speed' option.

Hmmm, if the Intelligent Magic Item has an at will Summon Monster ability could it make its summons wield itself?