What about that sexual din(m)orphism in Dragonborn?

[Lorsa]

I've understood there's been a long discussion online about female dragonborn and breast over the years. What I am less sure about is how exactly one tells the diferrence between male and female dragonborn in 5e.

So, anyone that has any thoughts to share on the matter?

[Raphite1]

Boobs aren't the only difference between male and female humans, and they wouldn't be the only difference between male and female dragonborn, regardless of whether you think female dragonborn have boobs. :smallsmile:

When you see a thin human woman wearing a boob-obscuring heavy top, or a fat human man with a boob-like chest, how do you tell whether they are male or female? You can probably use the same cues for dragonborn. :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

You can also use patterns or specific colors if you feel like it (patterns makes more sense but neither is used in canon for showing gender).

[MegenticPull]

This is actually a great question. In my setting, I have all species share the male voice drop, mostly because it's easy for players to relate to, and easy for me to communicate. If the DM drops into a deep voice, this man is extra manly, and the higher the DM's pitch, the more feminine we can assume this character is. It's an easy way to give off information without a lot of work (and show off my vocal range).

But surely there are other qualities. Human dimorphism is easy to players to relate too: taller men with broader shoulders, shorter women with larger hips and less mass, voice differences, facial hair. Many of these things translate into other races: elves may all be slender and tall, but voices, facial hair, and to some extent body structure dimorphism remains.

With dragonborn, it could be tricky. As far as I know, they don't have facial hair given the scales. Other things could still remain, as mentioned earlier, and you could make other distinctions if you'd like. It should be harder to determine the sex of a different species than your own: perhaps dragonborn scales are slightly different shades, something dragonborn pick up on quite easily, but could leave other races wondering.

[Beleriphon]

With dragonborn, it could be tricky. As far as I know, they don't have facial hair given the scales. Other things could still remain, as mentioned earlier, and you could make other distinctions if you'd like. It should be harder to determine the sex of a different species than your own: perhaps dragonborn scales are slightly different shades, something dragonborn pick up on quite easily, but could leave other races wondering.

I like the Elder Scrolls method, the male Argonians tend to have more pronounced head ridges and spins/horns.

[Grim Portent]

I favour reptilian races being non-dimorphic, at least not to human eyes. Obvious to other reptilians though, usually due to different smells more than physical differences.

If you want to find out a dragonborn's* sex you need to probe it's cloaca or examine one of the less distinct differences in things like ventral scales or wait until whatever time they start getting ready to mate for things like breeding season colours to come out.

Or just asking, it's more polite and gets you less odd looks than kneeling in front of someone's groin when you first meet them. :smallwink:


*Or any reptile species for that matter.

[Cynthaer]

Boobs aren't the only difference between male and female humans, and they wouldn't be the only difference between male and female dragonborn, regardless of whether you think female dragonborn have boobs. :smallsmile:

When you see a thin human woman wearing a boob-obscuring heavy top, or a fat human man with a boob-like chest, how do you tell whether they are male or female? You can probably use the same cues for dragonborn. :smalltongue:

Along these lines, the OP's question opens up a world of possibilities to flesh out your own campaign setting.

Consider how much of gender presentation is socially constructed, and how much it differs by time and place. What does the length of someone's hair tell you about someone's gender? Depends if they're in 1950's America, or feudal Japan, or the pre-colonization Cherokee tribe. What do colors like pink, yellow, and blue indicate about gender? Shoes with high heels? Face makeup? Specific kinds of piercings? Clothing that covers or reveals various specific regions of the body? Tattoos?

Then there are other things that are less completely arbitrary, but are driven by both physiology and social conditioning. For instance, average voice pitch is different between genders (although individuals can be all over the place), but things like volume, tone (aggressive vs. conciliatory, etc.), and willingness to interrupt have more to do with social conditioning. Consider also how someone stands or sits, or how much space they occupy, which isn't just driven by how big they actually are—Ryuko Matoi from Kill La Kill is a fairly average-sized girl, but she stands wide-legged, sits on chairs backwards, and generally slouches around in a very space-consuming way that is more like what men and boys usually do.

In humans, aside from breasts and height, cisgender women also usually have narrower shoulders, smaller waists, and wider hips than cisgender men, and vice-versa. Fat distribution is also different, with cisgender men tending to accumulate fat in the belly and cisgender women accumulating it in the butt and thighs. Clothing styles in various times and places may either emphasize or downplay any of these attributes, but they are generally built around these differences in some fashion.

All of which is to say: Sexual dimorphism in dragonborn can be whatever you want it to be, and so too can you choose however you want gender to play out in their society.

Maybe there's almost no sexual dimorphism at all from a biological standpoint. If so, maybe they never developed a concept of a gender binary at all! Or maybe after meeting other races with stronger ideas about gender, they decided they rather liked it and now tend to play up gender a lot by having very gendered fashions and face painting and jewelry.

Hell, what if they picked up the idea of performing gender, but still lack any real cultural connection between that and "biological sex" because they picked it all up second-hand? So now you see dragonborn all over the place wearing tons and tons of strongly masculine- or feminine-coded items, but statistically it tells you absolutely nothing about whether that individual dragonborn lays eggs or fertilizes them.

IMO, that's way more interesting than "female dragonborn have boobs" or "female dragonborn don't have boobs but you can still probably tell by looking for an Adam's apple or a smaller waist or whatever".

[Joe the Rat]

I merrily subscribe to the monotreme dragon theory, where dragonborn are scale-covered egg-laying mammals. Like giant anthropomorphic echidnas.

Other secondary characteristics should be tied to differences in hormones (which I have no desire to delve right now), or selective traits (knobbier ridges and a wider distribution of barbel growth points for mating displays).
Or a Doylist anthropic principle: female dragonborn look "feminine" for ease of reference for human players.

[Asmotherion]

Dragonborn breed through eggs in most lore. Dragons are capable of breeding with humanoids though, thus producing non-egg hatched decendants.

If Dragonborn are Hatched in your setting, it makes no much sence to have females with breasts. Except if you make them decended from an other mamal humanoid species. Perhaps they are the decendents of the few Half Dragons who found ways to breed through magic (and, given their longuevity, made a whole race along the way).

The best way to approach Dimorphism, IMO is more Brutal Characteristics on Males, larger horns and overall more muscular build, wile Females would have smaller Horns, a more eleguant and slender build, and be generally shorter.

Scales would also be more edgy in males, and more smooth in females. Scale colours would be of a deeper/darker tone in males, and of a lighter tone in females. Exceptions may exist.

[willdaBEAST]

Is dinophism an intentional pun? It made me chuckle.

I think there are several key things you should determine for the Dragonborn in your world. Do they lay eggs? If so, they probably aren't mammals and would not lactate to feed their young (no nipples or breasts).

I think the OP's question opens up a lot of interesting possibilities for world building. For our species wikipedia says that, in the US, adult males tend to be 9% taller and 16.5% heavier. Men tend to convert more food into muscle, while women do the same with fat. Women have more white blood cells and apparently produce more antibodies, so they develop less infectious diseases and are sick for shorter periods of time.

What if all that is flipped for Dragonborn? The females are taller and stronger, while the men tend to retain more fat. How would that affect society? I think there are countless ways that you could upend everything we take for granted about our current society or even that of more medieval cultures.

Another major aspect of sexual dimorphism that fascinates me is that in nature species with differences in size between males and females (including us) tend not to be monogamous.

[KOLE]

This is actually a really interesting discussion. It’s always an odd thing to bring up, but I think considering questions like this can really flesh out your campaign. Stuff like, What is a normal Elven gestation period, would it change if a female elf was impregnated by a human male? How often do Elves ovulate? Considering their life span, it would make a lot of sense for them to have much less opportunity to produce spawn than humans, or you’d very quickly run into an overpopulation problem.

As for this discussion in particular, I hadn’t really considered it, and it wouldn’t make much sense to me personally for Dragonborn females to have breasts. There is a pretty thin line between Dragonborn and Kobolds, aside from size differences and breath weapons, therefore I think we can conclude they are an egg-laying species. As for how to casually tell the difference, I’m okay with it not being obvious to your average adventurer. I have a dragonborn in the party I DM for, and I’m enjoying the interactions with NPCs being surprised much more than I expected, it really fleshes out the world. But changing the pitch of your voice is a pretty easy fix, and would make sense IC as well.

[hamishspence]

I merrily subscribe to the monotreme dragon theory, where dragonborn are scale-covered egg-laying mammals. Like giant anthropomorphic echidnas.

The pangolin is even scalier-looking than the echidna - doesn't lay eggs though. Still, combining traits from the pangolin with monotremes, gets us something very like 4e dragonborn were.

[Lombra]

The answer depends on how much fanservice you are willing to lavish.

[Unoriginal]

I've not seen any illustration that'd confirm at 00% Dragonborn females have boobs.

Then again, 5e mostly stays away from the comic book/manga/video game-style "little-covered big boobies extravaganza" so it doesn't mean much.

So in any case, what we can say is "if Dragonborn ladies have boobs, they're showing them less than in previous editions."

[Ralanr]

I've not seen any illustration that'd confirm at 00% Dragonborn females have boobs.

Then again, 5e mostly stays away from the comic book/manga/video game-style "little-covered big boobies extravaganza" so it doesn't mean much.

So in any case, what we can say is "if Dragonborn ladies have boobs, they're showing them less than in previous editions."

Frankly I haven’t seen much Dragonborn art, let alone new art.

Really supports my own personal theory that Wizards is trying to avoid fan backlash of Dragonborn. Which is also kinda silly because why else have them?

[TundraBuccaneer]

Depends on what you want, if you look at nature you can go over the top route with large horns, fins or more colorful.
An other way might be to look at egg laying animals. With most of those the female is bigger, probably to hold all those eggs. There are a few exceptions like crocodiles though.
You could also go into way of speaking or behavior, how are dragonborn in you're campaign? What are different sex genders interested in? Do they care if other races don't know their sex or get it wrong?
Lastly maybe go for a humanoid solution, clothing or other accessories.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I decided to go a different direction than most.

First, dragonborn were created from humans about 800 years ago by injecting draconic soul fragments into unborn human children with the goal of creating a race of super-soldiers. Side note: This was not a nice process. No one, not the dragons nor the humans were willing subjects. Their creation led to the fall of an empire and a massive, nuclear-equivalent civil war.

So dragonborn are starting from a human base. They're a live-birth species, but (like lizards) the newborns are almost entirely functional at birth. They don't nurse, they eat meat, insects, and especially blood. They're born in litters of 2-4. They develop fast (the whole species does), but have a shorter life span (65-80 years, instead of 80 average).

So females still have vestigial breasts, but they're hard to discern now and non-functional. They are (on average) larger than the males--taller and bulkier. This makes the birthing process easier. Otherwise, they're similar to humans. No longer interfertile, but there are still people with weird fetishes.

They wear clothing just like anyone else.

There also aren't "lineages"--the color is relatively random. This is actually the same as my dragons, who aren't alignment-tied but are elementally-tied.

[Knaight]

If I ever ran a campaign that had dragonborn in it, I'd be inclined to pull from reptilian sexual dimorphism, sticking to the subtle (much the way that humans have very minor sexual dimorphism by mammal standards, as is indicated by that 16.5% weight difference as calculated from the lower weight sex not being something like 80% as it is in a lot of species).

Restricting this to what the thread appears to be focusing on, secondary sexual characteristics, and picking the komodo dragon as an arbitrary reptile for what are probably arbitrary reasons, some quick googling reveals that there's basically nothing there. The only thing I found was slight mass variation (roughly on par with humans), slight length variation, and some behavioral stuff around komodo dragon reproduction. The most usable of this would be the tendency of male komodo dragons to vomit or defecate before a fight.

While I could pull that for dragonborn, at least for the vomiting, it doesn't exactly fit well and is just going to annoy players. As such I'd be inclined to go with minimal sexual dimorphism, where you can kind of guess based on size but are still pretty likely to be wrong. Clothing, tattoos/painting, and other added marks could also work.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've understood there's been a long discussion online about female dragonborn and breast over the years. What I am less sure about is how exactly one tells the diferrence between male and female dragonborn in 5e. Is this question being asked in preparation for producing dragonporn, or dragonbornporn? :smallyuk:

I guess I am asking: why does this matter? Do you have a narrative problem that you can't solve?

[Nifft]

The answer depends on how much fanservice you are willing to lavish.

https://i.imgur.com/cmXEdU0.jpg

Oh, my, God Becky, look at her fan
It is so big, she looks like
One of those Bard guys' girlfriends.
But, ya know, who understands those Bard guys?
They only talk to her, because,
She looks like a total dracomorph, 'kay?
I mean, her fan, is just so big …

[apepi]

Well somewhat related, I play a Kobold. Kobolds really have no sexual dimorphism. And really only Kobolds(and maybe dragons or other scaled creatures) can tell the difference.

And you can't tell the difference of a Dragon's sex I don't think. So why would Dragonborn's be any different?

[Hecuba]

There are a few common trackers for sexual dimorphism: they're not that different in reptiles and birds (which is to say reptiles and feathery-reptiles, or more succinctly diapsids) than in most other tetrapods, or even most other animals.
If you want to emphasize dimorphism in Dragonborn, you could go with:

Coloration and pattern
While the most basic element of color is dictated by the color the the relevant dragon type, variation in pattern or vividness is still an option.
Additionally, there are plenty of species that show this kind of dimorphism only during mating season, which provides an interesting option for making Dragonborn just a tad more alien.
Overall size
Size of specific body parts, especially tail or head
This also covers breast size for mammals, which can make a good avenue for having Dragonborn be confused about human sexual dimorphism, especially if someone has decided to ... role play PowerGirl
Difference in vocalization
Ornimentation, like ridges
Scent differences
Might make it hard for humans but immediately apparent to some other races.

[Lorsa]

Thanks for all the interesting posts! This is definitely the kind of discussion I was looking for.

And, just so you know, I have about a day to decide what I want to do...

So it seems that there are a couple of different ways to go.

1) Dragonborn lays eggs and shares no secondary sexual characteristics with humans and instead have their own differences.
2) Dragonborn lays eggs but still share similar sexual dimorphism to humans due to a common heritage (or magic or whatever).
3) Dragonborn do not lay eggs and are thus more similar to all other playable races in the PHB.

There seem to be sub-categories to each, but did I capture the main choices?


Is dinophism an intentional pun? It made me chuckle.

Honestly, it wasn't. I was creating the thread on my smartphone and wasn't careful enough. But it's the unintentional puns that are the best! :smallsmile:

[Amdy_vill]

I've understood there's been a long discussion online about female dragonborn and breast over the years. What I am less sure about is how exactly one tells the diferrence between male and female dragonborn in 5e.

So, anyone that has any thoughts to share on the matter?

i like to view them like dwarfs in most settings. they are slitty thiner and that is about it. if you are a fan of the weird tentacle hair you can always give male beards.

[Lorsa]

And to answer just a few of the questions (I still need to iron out how to do things - it seems from the comments here that there are multiple ways to go):


Depends on what you want, if you look at nature you can go over the top route with large horns, fins or more colorful.
An other way might be to look at egg laying animals. With most of those the female is bigger, probably to hold all those eggs. There are a few exceptions like crocodiles though.
You could also go into way of speaking or behavior, how are dragonborn in you're campaign? What are different sex genders interested in? Do they care if other races don't know their sex or get it wrong?
Lastly maybe go for a humanoid solution, clothing or other accessories.

Whatever else I decide, I think of Dragonborn as a bit up tight really. So they wouldn't really appreciate if someone got their sex wrong - though they might be fine with people asking rather than making assumptions.

The fact hat the PhB lists different name lists for males and females indicates to me that it has *some* effect in their society.

But in general, I haven't quite figured out how gender DOES work in Dragonborn society. That's part of the reason I started this thread. I have to figure it out, but the PhB offers little help.



Is this question being asked in preparation for producing dragonporn, or dragonbornporn? :smallyuk:

I guess I am asking: why does this matter? Do you have a narrative problem that you can't solve?

I have a world building problem I can't solve. Also, I need to know if I should describe any Dragonborn NPCs the PCs meet as "male/female Dragonborn" or simply "Dragonborn". Not to mention I am uncertain how their culture views gender. If they are indeed laying eggs, how does that change stuff? Is stealing eggs from another clan to raise them as your own a common occurrence (as many animals hatched from eggs often assume whatever is there at the time is their mother)?



The answer depends on how much fanservice you are willing to lavish.

I really don't care one way or the other as far as fanservice is concerned. I mean, I could make them into human-like mammals if that somehow makes sense, or more exotic reptilians. The problem is that I can't quite figure out what is best.

[Naanomi]

As a biped that is either giving birth or laying large eggs, I’d wager there is some differences in hip shape and supporting body fat accumulation... needed to support the gestation and birthing/egg laying process

[The Jack]

Shoes with high heels? Face makeup? Specific kinds of piercings? Clothing that covers or reveals various specific regions of the body? Tattoos?

Then there are other things that are less completely arbitrary, but are driven by both physiology and social conditioning.

None of these are arbitrary, though most of it's "Men go to war, women stay at home" logic and/or appeal.
-High heels that made people slightly taller were invented for men,possibly for height=power, but only for women did they get so impractical.
-Makeup is great for hiding signs of age (or disease) since men ideally seek young healthy nubiles for healthy children. While there's an argument for men and makeup, it's ultimately less important since ability as a provider is relatively more important for them.
-Specific Tattoos/ Piercings: Intimidation/Achievement/Rank is fantastic for warfare, terrible for housekeeping.
-I think there might be examples to counter the clothing argument, but generally women are more covered than men because men see it more necessary for wives to be exclusive than vice versa, owing to cuckphobia.

[quote]
Maybe there's almost no sexual dimorphism at all from a biological standpoint. If so, maybe they never developed a concept of a gender binary at all! Or maybe after meeting other races with stronger ideas about gender, they decided they rather liked it and now tend to play up gender a lot by having very gendered fashions and face painting and jewelry.

This makes me think "but then there'd be less drive for a division of labour and they'd be far more primitive". But then I remembered they could just steal ideas from other races.





Biologically, a sentient, upright race kinda has to be limited in how many offspring they can have to fit in that criteria, baring magical interference, and thus they're likely prone to the same psychological dimorphism that humans are.

However, you could add far more ways to add extra features that increase dimorphism and remove some of the uneccessary differences found in humans (more muscular, less booby women?) Though that makes far less appealing fan art...

[TundraBuccaneer]

And to answer just a few of the questions (I still need to iron out how to do things - it seems from the comments here that there are multiple ways to go):



Whatever else I decide, I think of Dragonborn as a bit up tight really. So they wouldn't really appreciate if someone got their sex wrong - though they might be fine with people asking rather than making assumptions.

The fact hat the PhB lists different name lists for males and females indicates to me that it has *some* effect in their society.

But in general, I haven't quite figured out how gender DOES work in Dragonborn society. That's part of the reason I started this thread. I have to figure it out, but the PhB offers little help.

If they do care and it is difficult it would stand to reason that they use clothes and jewelry to make clear what the differences are, if not in normal dragontown then at least when they are in non-dragonborn society.
As for dragonborn society I can imagine that they don't have specific gender roles since there is not a lot of difference within the sexes. so there is no need. Especially if the females don't have to take care of offspring, then there is no natural claim for such rolls to be backed up

[KorvinStarmast]

I have a world building problem I can't solve. Also, I need to know if I should describe any Dragonborn NPCs the PCs meet as "male/female Dragonborn" or simply "Dragonborn". OK, that's a workable problem statement.
1. No need to describe gender, proceed as follows to keep it simple and playable:
a. simply describe the dragonborn.
b. Someone who is not dragonborn will need to do a Nature check to pick up the subtle cues of gender.
c. Any other dragonborn will of course know.


2. Not to mention I am uncertain how their culture views gender. a. You are the DM, you decide. For simplicity sake, you can have gender only matter during mating season, if such appeals to you. (See also Ursula K LeGuinn, Left Hand of Darkness for a novel treatment on gender that works like this. A good SF read in any case .... )
b. Is it important to you for this to matter during play?

3. If they are indeed laying eggs, how does that change stuff? Is stealing eggs from another clan to raise them as your own a common occurrence (as many animals hatched from eggs often assume whatever is there at the time is their mother)? Oh yeah, nest protection becomes a major issue, unless you have for them carrying cases for their eggs. Rich with possibilities of intrigue, adventure hooks.
Live birth, however, is simpler.

Complexity: it's your currency for adding potential depth, or potential gear grinding detail that slows the game down. It's a two edged sword.

You have to answer this question first, nobody else can answer this for you:
How complicated do I want to make it? (that's up to how much work you can spare for this)
How complicated do I need to make it? (How interested are your players in this level of detail?)
A

[Sception]

In my games I generally go with a mix of common bird and reptile traits, where female dragonborn are typically larger in size but plainer in look, where as males are typically smaller, but with brighter and more colorful scales, decorative spines & ridges, etc. Though still a spectrum - just because female dragonborn are on average larger less colorful doesn't mean any particular female dragonborn is larger or less colorful then any particular male dragonborn, and there's usually more variance between different colors or clans than between different genders within the same group.

I find that makes it relatively easy to broadly describe & differentiate gender in dragonborn npcs without while keeping them suitably inhuman in physiology, and without overly infringing on how individual players want to describe dragonborn PCs.

[apepi]

I have a world building problem I can't solve. Also, I need to know if I should describe any Dragonborn NPCs the PCs meet as "male/female Dragonborn" or simply "Dragonborn". Not to mention I am uncertain how their culture views gender. If they are indeed laying eggs, how does that change stuff? Is stealing eggs from another clan to raise them as your own a common occurrence (as many animals hatched from eggs often assume whatever is there at the time is their mother)?

From my readings when I was playing a Dragonborn it seemed like they were very serious, professional and honorable. But there aren't a lot of Dragonborn. Dragonborn really don't have love and marriages are arranged. And once the child gets to 3 years old the marriage dissolves and one of the parents just raise the child then.

So I honestly don't think egg stealing is a common issue. Dragonborns are too honorable, and even if you do end up somehow getting another's dragonborn egg, they would end up knowing.

[Lorsa]

Another thing I have been curious about in regards to Dragonborn is how much of their body is actually covered by scales. Is it the entire body, or do some parts lack scales (or perhaps have smaller scales)? I really wish the PhB would have more correct anatomical drawings so I wouldn't have to figure it all out from air...

[apepi]

Another thing I have been curious about in regards to Dragonborn is how much of their body is actually covered by scales. Is it the entire body, or do some parts lack scales (or perhaps have smaller scales)? I really wish the PhB would have more correct anatomical drawings so I wouldn't have to figure it all out from air...

From what I understand they mostly have the most scales around the forearms, lower legs, feet, shoulders, and thighs, the rest is just leathery like skin.

[Lorsa]

From what I understand they mostly have the most scales around the forearms, lower legs, feet, shoulders, and thighs, the rest is just leathery like skin.

Alright! Thanks!

[Chaosmancer]

I've never found this level of detail terribly useful (though I like the idea of nest protection being a thing if I went egg-laying)

Just as an example, I was writing some behind the scenes... scenes... with a player and it became a question about Tieflings blushing. I decided that Teiflings blush with increased blood flow in their horns, do dark horn color would be like us blushing scarlet.

I've never had a chance to use that anywhere. It has literally never come up. So.. Do I even bother telling a new player (what is 5e new) about that detail if they want to play a teifling. It's a fun detail, makes them more alien, ect, but if someone is already struggling under the load of an info dump it is something which can be easily dropped.

I've actually got a brand new player who chose Dragonborn, first session is the 10th. No one has asked about sexual dimorphism. And, I wonder if they ever will.


My point isn't to quash this discussion, I find it fascinating to consider and a cool worldbuilding tool, but I want to make sure the context is clear. This is likely only for your enjoyment as a DM, not something your players care about.