How useless is the DM's Guide

[Ivor_The_Mad]

So me and the Brazenburn had a short debate talking about the usefulness of the DMG. Him saying that it was the least useful by far of the core rulebooks. I agreed to the fact that it was the least useful of the core rule books and you can get along with out it but it was more useful than the expansions. He then claimed that Xanathars was more important and I disagreed with this. I would like to know your opinions on the importance of the DMG.

Heres my list of importance (I did not include MToF because I don't have it yet *shipping difficulties :(

#1 PHB
#2 MM
#3 DMG
#4 XGtE
#5 VGtM
#6
#7 SCAG (Useless)

[Emay Ecks]

I for the most part agree with your rankings. However, if I was to look at how much use each of my books gets, Xanathar's does get more use than DMG (new spells, random name generation, uses for tools, more subclasses than dmg, etc). But DMG is definitely the book I consult most when designing a new setting/campaign and occasionally while designing a dungeon/town/map. It has many good rules and resources for variant rules, planes, town design, random events, villain motivations, etc. However, many experienced DMs already have an idea what they want to do in all of these regards and don't need the dmg, but a newer DM could find it a fantastic resource.

[jaappleton]

It has the magic items.

So its important.

Desperately waiting for a second guide. I know XGtE had common magic items, but I want something with a bit more heft.

[kebusmaximus]

In my experience, the dmg is actually more useful than the monster manual. The mm is just a collection of monsters, while the dmg shows you how to create them. When something is mechanically just a bag of hit points you can easily follow the dmg guidelines, and for everything more exotic, it's usually not very hard to come up with what abilities a creature would have. The monster manual makes running the game much easier, of course, but isn't as universally useful.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I agree but the reason I put it above Xanathar's Is because I use Xanathar's more as a 2nd PHB rather than a DMG and it Does not beat the DMG for what the DMG is useful for (Magic items, city, villains)

I would also love a new DMG. I would like a random side quest table.

[MegenticPull]

Really depends on what you mean by useless.

Clearly, the Player's Handbook is the most useful book of them all, given that it's the only book you actually need to play the game.

Ignoring the modules, we've got the Monster Manual, Dungeon Masters Guide, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Volo's Guide to Monsters, Xanathar’s Guide to Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Trying to assign these an Objective Usefulness Value is quite silly, in my opinion

If you're looking to run one of the modules, the Monster Manual is required because modules don't list stats for monsters found in the Monster Manual. But if you're homebrewing your own game, you don't actually need the Monster Manual or DMG, though both are helpful.

From a player's perspective, books are often useful simply by how many class options they present. In order, that would be Player's Hand Book, Xanathar’s Guide to Everything, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and then Volo's Guide to Monsters. They may also find the Dungeon Masters Guide and Xanathar’s Guide to Everything useful for magic items and downtime activity descriptions, and my players have become addicted to Xanathar’s Guide to Everything's background charts.

Point I'm getting at: Strongly depends on who you are and what you do. A player who never runs the game doesn't need the Monster Manual, and it's probably the least useful option for them. I think the only thing no one would dispute is that the Player's Handbook is the most important.

[hymer]

I agree but the reason I put it above Xanathar's Is because I use Xanathar's more as a 2nd PHB rather than a DMG and it Does not beat the DMG for what the DMG is useful for (Magic items, city, villains)

I would also love a new DMG. I would like a random side quest table.

Judging by how often I open them up, I actually think I use the MM the most, with PHB and DMG following. I think Xanathar and VGtM are about equal. I don't think I'll be using MToF more than them, but probably not much less, either. There should be quite a few monsters in there.

In terms of importance, I agree that the DMG beats the MM, as kebusmaximus posted above, and the PHB is the most important of all.

[Waazraath]

So me and the Brazenburn had a short debate talking about the usefulness of the DMG. Him saying that it was the least useful by far of the core rulebooks. I agreed to the fact that it was the least useful of the core rule books and you can get along with out it but it was more useful than the expansions. He then claimed that Xanathars was more important and I disagreed with this. I would like to know your opinions on the importance of the DMG.

Heres my list of importance (I did not include MToF because I don't have it yet *shipping difficulties :(

#1 PHB
#2 MM
#3 DMG
#4 XGtE
#5 VGtM
#6
#7 SCAG (Useless)

It's nice to have, not need to have. It's easy to make items yourself, especially when you're familiar with earlier editions or other games; probably they end up more balanced than the DMG items because there are some of them... *sigh*. It's interesting for XP and encounter building, but if you're experienced, you'll do fine by yourself when building encounters, and if you just let your party level every 4, 5 sessions or something, you don't need XP.

Character options are few, obscure, and in some cases already caught up by other books (aasimar race, for example).

I aren't regretting that I purchased it (I love books, and read them for fun beside the game), but I think its the book that saw the least use so far. Even SCAG I used a lot more, for the background of one of my chars, and for some context when I run Princes of the Apocalyps.

To be honest, I think never used it in a game, and I started playing 5e shortly after it came out.

[DMThac0]

I would say it depends on your experience with the game.

My fiancee is working on DMing her second game ever. The DMG is extremely important to her as it helps her figure out how she should be adjudicating what's happening in the game. It gives her context, and analogies for the crazy stuff we pull out of our collective hats and toss on the table.

I'm running my Nth game in the past 30ish years, I don't look at the books unless I'm verifying something that a player brought up and has an immediate effect on the situation.

I will agree whole heartedly that the PHB is by far the most important book of them all. As to the rest, they are ranked based on familiarity with the game and necessity.

[strangebloke]

For a new DM, I would suggest getting the DMG before the MM.

Reasons being that a lot of the best/most famous monsters are open-source and available legally on sites like roll20, and that the DMG has tons of really good variant rules and guidance.

MM gives you some good monsters, DMG helps you make good encounters and use those monsters effectively.

Plus, while there's some overlap between XGtE and the DMG... there's a ton of overlap between the MM and VGtM/MToF. If you're running a campaign that's focused on orcs, giants, or illithids, VGtM could be way better than a Monster Manual.

So I would say:

#1 PHB
#2 DMG
#3 Volo's/Mordenkainen's/MM (If you already have the one most applicable to your campaign, this drops to #6)
#4 XGtE (looking purely at DM content, here. For a player it's #2)
#5 SCAG (#3 for players.)
#6 EEPC (It's free tho)

[Tanarii]

DMG contains the hands down most important thing a DM needs to read before running their first game:
Chapter 8 Running the Game

Especially the section on ability checks.

Its so important that if you haven't read it, I would not consider you qualified to run a game of 5e. Especially not an AL table.

Edit: I'm assuming here the potential DM had been a player and understands the basics of the player rules sufficiently.

[LordEntrails]

Useful to who?
Me? I've read 6 other versions of the DMG, so not too important. Though the magic items stuff is needed and I reference other stuff regularly too.

To a new GM? It's the #1 book. To a player? Not needed at all.

Depends who you want to know how useful it is.

[Luccan]

Clearly the single most important thing outside core is the Tortle Package. It may even be superior to all but the PHB (because you need that to give your Tortle a class).

Reading the DMG for 5e, I found it told me little I hadn't seen in previous editions and even found it somewhat lacking in content, though that may be due to 5e being simpler than some previous editions.

The PHB is clearly the most important book, but I have to say the DMG is probably the 2nd most important, at least for new DMs. I also wouldn't rate the MM that highly since so many monsters are free online. I'd rate XGtE fairly highly, because it gives rules for things that just did not have rules in core (and makes tool proficiencies actually worth something).

[JeffreyGator]

One thing to consider is what does it have that you don't get anywhere else.

I actually think that the encounter building difficulty rating in the DMG is superior to the XgE especially after a party wipe to what XgtE appeared to classify as average and DMG (because of enemy group size modifier) classed as deadly. And this pretty much only exists in the DMG, grappling, disarms, and a host of optional rules that live at my table are also only there.


That being said there are large sections of this book that I almost completely ignore that are edition agnostic really. I don't know that I find them quite as useless as ten pages of names - but then my most recent character did look up a name from those pages.


SCAG from a player perspective has four unique cantrip spells on half a page that alone probably make it strong contender for the +1 in AL rules vs XgtE.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Strongly depends on who you are and what you do.

Yeah. For me, I'm forever 'brewing monsters, so the table on DMG 274 is something I refer to almost daily. It's by far my most-used book, but only for that one page.

[Beechgnome]

I find I consult the DMG quite a bit when planning an adventure or a campaign, but rarely during the game. That may be because my brother homebrewed a DM screen for me that has many of the handy tables.

I think that's what distinguishes it from all of the other books, which I routinely open to check a monster block or a player spell description. So to me it's essential for DMs, but on game night you only need one person to bring it.

[Requilac]

I wouldn’t say that the DMG is useless, but I think it’s use is very limited. The sections on building encounters, homebrewing monsters and magic items is invaluable. The other 80% of the book is pretty cool, but over-all entirely unnecessary. If you aren’t feeling particularly creative than perhaps it could jog your thoughts a little, but I personally find that there are better ways of doing that than examining charts and rolling on tables.* In truth an experienced DM with a blog could provide just as useful information. And a lot of the content in chapter 8 of the DMG is quite literally just copied from the PHB.

As someone who homebrews campaigns (and the encounters and monsters within them) I absolutely need the DMG, but the thing is i need less than 10 of the 300 pages of the DMG to function.

* I could have my thoughts biased though because the first time I rolled on this table I formed a villain which was planning on ascending into godhood by raising taxes. Somehow.

[Beechgnome]

I wouldn’t say that the DMG is useless, but I think it’s use is very limited. The sections on building encounters, homebrewing monsters and magic items is invaluable. The other 80% of the book is pretty cool, but over-all entirely unnecessary. If you aren’t feeling particularly creative than perhaps it could jog your thoughts a little, but I personally find that there are better ways of doing that than examining charts and rolling on tables.* In truth an experienced DM with a blog could provide just as useful information. And a lot of the content in chapter 8 of the DMG is quite literally just copied from the PHB.

As someone who homebrews campaigns (and the encounters and monsters within them) I absolutely need the DMG, but the thing is i need less than 10 of the 300 pages of the DMG to function.

* I could have my thoughts biased though because the first time I rolled on this table I formed a villain which was planning on ascending into godhood by raising taxes. Somehow.

That sounds like something a gnome would dream up. So what's step two again?

[Requilac]

That sounds like something a gnome would dream up. So what's step two again?

Umm, I wasn’t think that far ahead. Let’s have the dice decide again. You can find these tables on page 94-96 of the DMG.

Objective and Methods Rolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23109599&postcount=230)

Scheme, Specific Method and Weakness Rolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23109610&postcount=231)

So let’s see, once the villain has ascended into godhood by raising taxes, it/she/he will steal land, goods or money via hanging. The villain is weakened in the presence of a specific artifact.

Hmm, I’m seeing a Western Villain in the making here... Ambidextrous Redcap, The Sheriff of Gnomingham.

[Beechgnome]

Umm, I wasn’t think that far ahead. Let’s have the dice decide again. You can find these tables on page 94-96 of the DMG.

Objective and Methods Rolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23109599&postcount=230)

Scheme, Specific Method and Weakness Rolls (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23109610&postcount=231)

So let’s see, once the villain has ascended into godhood by raising taxes, it/she/he will steal land, goods or money via hanging. The villain is weakened in the presence of a specific artifact.

Hmm, I’m seeing a Western Villain in the making here... Ambidextrous Redcap, The Sheriff of Gnomingham.

I was just making a South Park-underpants gnome joke, but that works too.

[NaughtyTiger]

I run hardcovers and modules in an Adventure League setting. So I don't need to create anything.
This season, I have been hitting:
PHB
XGE
MM
Volo's (as new players hit XGE, they give up Volo races)
SCAG (booming blade is still popular, but i don't need to open the book)
...
DMG (not even for magic items, cuz it is hard to search for specific magic item. i google that)

[ad_hoc]

Magic Items and tables are great.

Even though some may have read DMGs from other games, they should read the 5e DMG because 5e is a different game.

I imagine some of the disconnect people have with 5e comes from skipping this stuff (and the same sorts of things in the PHB).

Only reading things that have numbers and skipping the part about how and why they are used.

[Sigreid]

It depends. If you're a player, or a DM that only intends to run content created by others, it's not that useful. If, however, you are a DM that wants to create your own adventures, towns and maybe even monsters and worlds, it's very important.

[MeeposFire]

It depends. If you're a player, or a DM that only intends to run content created by others, it's not that useful. If, however, you are a DM that wants to create your own adventures, towns and maybe even monsters and worlds, it's very important.

I agree.

From what I have seen a number of the posts here seem to be coming from a players perspective or at least what stuff is for a player which I find strange for this conversation. The whole point of the DM guide is to give out information and tools for the DM to use not really for players so of course it is limited in content directly for players heck the character options it has were ones designed to show off how to make character options, alternatives to give out more flavor and mechanics, and villains material (that could be potentially allowed to be taken by players).

The DMs guide has a very specific job and so personally I think if you are going to rate the book you should rate it at doing its job not necessarily at how much it gives to you as a player. Xanathar's on the other hand is an expansion and it does its job very well and when I am being a player it certainly is mroe useful to me in that case but the DMG is far more useful to me as a DM. When looking at it this way as a whole I put the Monster Manual and the DMG on the same footing. I can personally see with enough experience being able to play without one or both but of course would not want to. The DMG does give monster creation rules so you could create my own all the time but of course that is more work than I want to do. The MM has all the stats for all sorts of monsters in a convenient package but it tells me nothing on how to run a campaign and while with my experience I could probably do adventures without the DMG just like with monsters in the MM I would rather have the DMG so I do not have to always reinvent the wheel

Xanathar is pretty sweet but I would not put it at being as important or useful to me as the big three books. I love the options but it requires the PHB to make any real sense (well the info from it anyway) and if I am a DM then I would much rather have the MM and DMG so I can more easily run the game rather than a few new rules additions which while cool are much less needed to me than what I can get from the other tow books.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

At the table, the DMG is mid-level important. It's probably the least important book until magic items become regular loot items, then moves up to #3 or #4, depending on the party.

During preparation, the DMG is easily the most important book for anyone really engaging in worldbuilding, even if they're doing it within the confines of a published adventure in the more-or-less official adventure setting.

[Tanarii]

Magic Items and tables are great.

Even though some may have read DMGs from other games, they should read the 5e DMG because 5e is a different game.

I imagine some of the disconnect people have with 5e comes from skipping this stuff (and the same sorts of things in the PHB).

Only reading things that have numbers and skipping the part about how and why they are used.Exactly. It's amazing how many DMs don't seem to understand some core concepts of 5e that are clearly explained in the DMG. Or assume they know how things are supposed to work that are superficially the same as previous editions, but are actually fairly different conceptually. Of course, this seemed far more common near release. Or more likely, it's because that's when I had the most contact with a wider variety of DMs compared to now. And I have a better understanding having DMd extensively myself, and can see all those post-release other-edition carried over assumptions more clearly in retrospect. And I made more than a few myself when I started. :smallamused:

There are a fair number of posters here in the 5e forums that understand the concepts perfectly and disagree with them philosophically. That's cool, because they clearly took the time to understand first, then disagree on principle.

[mephnick]

I really wish everyone who bought it read it instead of just putting it on the shelf and assuming they knew how to run the system. There'd be a lot fewer stupid questions and stories of DMs who don't understand the basic design goals and mechanics of the edition.

[MCerberus]

It should be noted that Tome of Foes is fluff heavy, even for a 5e supplement. Its monster section has some old friends like the choker and Allip, and there's a section about cults that should add... spice, but there is a toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon of Fluff.

[PeteNutButter]

I can probably only opened the DMG less than a dozen times. Less than 5 if you don’t count looking up an item which I’ve learned to just google.

I probably don’t bother cracking most books other than Xanathars. Most content is just easier to find with google.

As far as which book is best for your AL +1.
1. XGtE
2. SCAG
3. VGtM
4. MToF/EE

[Requilac]

I really wish everyone who bought it read it instead of just putting it on the shelf and assuming they knew how to run the system. There'd be a lot fewer stupid questions and stories of DMs who don't understand the basic design goals and mechanics of the edition.

Can this problem really be attributed to not enough people reading the DMG? It seems awful odd to pin the blame on that. I have had several DMs who bothered to read the DMG front to cover and debate about its contents who still don’t understand the design philosophy of 5e. And it wasn’t until I tried DMing for at least two years until I actually became mostly confident in it.* The way I am seeing it, there are other factors at work in this. After all, books can only give you information, which is hardly useful if you have trouble processing that information or if it is presented in a vague way.

*to be fair, the whole adventuring day =/= 24 hours is an incredibly frustrating and confusing revelation I only recently had

[2D8HP]

I don't DM anymore at all, so objectively the DMG just isn't useful to me, but I find that re-reading it makes me feel comforted somehow, more than the other books, so as just something to read I find it useful. .

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I really wish everyone who bought it read it instead of just putting it on the shelf and assuming they knew how to run the system. There'd be a lot fewer stupid questions and stories of DMs who don't understand the basic design goals and mechanics of the edition.

I agree with this statement. I like to use a screen because I don't like to think I memorized the things on it then mess it up in a dungeon.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I DM a lot, but I've been DMing a lot since 1e. A pretty healthy chunk of the DMG is useless to me just because I've been doing this so long that I don't need it. My daughter's about to start running a campaign for her friends this summer, and she's finding the DMG useful just because it has all sorts of things she hasn't thought about.

I don't use it a huge amount, but that's because a lot of the things like building encounters or defining a world are things I've been doing for 35+ years, and a lot of those processes are largely edition-agnostic. For newer DMs? It's great.

[Dragons_Ire]

I'd put it at #2, right behind the PHB.

The monster creating and encounter building guidelines are just fantastic, it contains plenty of optional rules and ideas, some nice art, and magic items. It's been immensely helpful for me, as a new DM, especially as I'm creating my own setting and world.

I'd personally put XGtE as #3, as it contains lots of fun things for players and DMs.

[halarin]

You commented that the SCAG is useless but it's rare to find a pc going for a gish build that doesn't want to use booming blade or green flame blade which are from the SCAG. I think your question may be too subjective to ever come to a real consensus on. The main problem is that no matter how much better 5e is than other editions at curtailing power creep, it does still happen. Earlier books start to look comparatively less useful when the later books are more refined and offer more powerful (cooler) spells and such. The DMG might not offer much at all for experienced DMs, but it is a good resource for new players/DMs.

[SirGraystone]

I DM a lot, but I've been DMing a lot since 1e. A pretty healthy chunk of the DMG is useless to me just because I've been doing this so long that I don't need it. My daughter's about to start running a campaign for her friends this summer, and she's finding the DMG useful just because it has all sorts of things she hasn't thought about.

I don't use it a huge amount, but that's because a lot of the things like building encounters or defining a world are things I've been doing for 35+ years, and a lot of those processes are largely edition-agnostic. For newer DMs? It's great.

Very true, how useful (or not) is a book depend of your need, SCAG for example is for someone DMing in the Sword Coast and is new to the setting, if you have been playing for 25 years or play in Dark Sun then its almost worthless to you.

For some MToF is a great product, me I only use the monsters section, the information about the elf, dwarf, blood war is something I already knew so is the little use to me.

[strangebloke]

I really wish everyone who bought it read it instead of just putting it on the shelf and assuming they knew how to run the system. There'd be a lot fewer stupid questions and stories of DMs who don't understand the basic design goals and mechanics of the edition.

Amen.

The number of times that unoriginal replies to a help thread with a line and page number from the DMG is proof of this.

I've been guilty of this myself.

[Xetheral]

I use the PHB the most, for spell and ability descriptions. I occasionally consult the Monster Manual when I happen to be using a stock monster, or a player wildshapes. I've read the DMG, but don't actively consult it for anything except magic item descriptions, which is rare. Most sessions I don't even bring it to the table.

I don't use XP or the encounter building guidelines. If I did, I imagine I'd consult the DMG a lot more.

[Luccan]

In defense of SCAG (on the player's side) even outside the specific fluff for the Forgotten Realms, there are some options in there that still haven't been reprinted elsewhere. I don't recall seeing the Half-Elf variants in anything else, and there are at least two subclasses that haven't appeared in any other books yet. I think MToF includes most of the Tiefling variants from SCAG in addition to new ones, but it doesn't include all of them (admittedly, I haven't gotten a long look at it, but I don't remember seeing Winged in there). There's also Ghostwise Halflings.