Expanding Magic Stone?

[Vogie]

As we know, Magic Stone is an oft-forgotten non-leveling cantrip that allows 3 pebbles to turn into 1d6 + SAM bludgeoning projectiles with a thrown property of 60, or could be loaded into & thrown by a sling for a range of up to 120 ft. It costs a bonus action, a bit of muttering and some handwavium. It lasts for a solid minute, and is available for Druids & Warlocks (for some reason)

Would this be broken if it applied to all ammunition instead of just pebbles for slings?
Applying to Blowgun ammunition (which I believe are darts, but aren't called that in RAW because "Dart" was already taken), arrows & bolts?

[Vessyra]

I don't see anything overpowered about it

[Naanomi]

It potentially increases the range, changes the damage type, and (possibly) has more potential for interaction with magic weapons... wouldn’t break anything, but something to be aware of

[Vogie]

It potentially increases the range, changes the damage type, and (possibly) has more potential for interaction with magic weapons... wouldn’t break anything, but something to be aware of

I didn't think about damage type - perhaps if I do use it, I'll make it so that whatever the original type is, so arrows/darts/bolts will still be piercing damage.

[Beelzebubba]

Would this be broken if it applied to all ammunition instead of just pebbles for slings?
Applying to Blowgun ammunition (which I believe are darts, but aren't called that in RAW because "Dart" was already taken), arrows & bolts?

I see a little cheese, or a LOT. It depends on how you rule it.

If you rule the arrows work with Sharpshooter, it's a HUGE boost to long range damage against foes with damage resistance. Situational, but in those situations, you make the archer ridiculous.

If you rule the arrows still count as a spell attack, and they don't get the benefit of Sharpshooter - so they still suffer from range and cover penalties, then not so much. Do they get +2 from Archery fighting style also? I think that one could generate some really spirited arguments.

If a caster gets Magic Stone through Spell Sniper, then you basically have Sharpshooter - but with 1200 foot range, no cover penalties, no range penalties, and could even get the Archery fighting style +2 to hit. The only thing they don't get in the bargain is the -5 to hit / +10 damage, which is arguably the most powerful part, but still, it's like a Warlock that dumps everything into Eldritch Blast, but available at 1st level.

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I think it also has some potential for abuse, especially with Sneak Attack and Assassinate, since you can now potentially rule that it now applies to a Finesse weapon, and all the Rogue goodness can now stack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think it also has some potential for abuse, especially with Sneak Attack and Assassinate, since you can now potentially rule that it now applies to a Finesse weapon, and all the Rogue goodness can now stack.
But...Rogues can...already Sneak Attack with ranged weapons?

[Vogie]

I see a little cheese, or a LOT. It depends on how you rule it.

If you rule the arrows work with Sharpshooter, it's a HUGE boost to long range damage against foes with damage resistance. Situational, but in those situations, you make the archer ridiculous.

If you rule the arrows still count as a spell attack, and they don't get the benefit of Sharpshooter - so they still suffer from range and cover penalties, then not so much. Do they get +2 from Archery fighting style also? I think that one could generate some really spirited arguments.

If a caster gets Magic Stone through Spell Sniper, then you basically have Sharpshooter - but with 1200 foot range, no cover penalties, no range penalties, and could even get the Archery fighting style +2 to hit. The only thing they don't get in the bargain is the -5 to hit / +10 damage, which is arguably the most powerful part, but still, it's like a Warlock that dumps everything into Eldritch Blast, but available at 1st level.
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I think it also has some potential for abuse, especially with Sneak Attack and Assassinate, since you can now potentially rule that it now applies to a Finesse weapon, and all the Rogue goodness can now stack.

I don't think Sharpshooter effects "ranged Spell Attacks", which is specifically what this spell creates - the only thing I'm attempting to change is adding other things to the list after just pebbles. The previous argument that I found on the boards about whether or not Magic Stones were Magic Weapons for purposes of damage resistance was largely inconclusive.

If your table rules that Archery's +2 to-hit effects a sling-user, it'd still apply to Magic Not-Stones when launched by a not-sling. If your table says it doesn't, then it doesn't - it is called "archery", after all.

Like Grod said, Rogues can already use ranged weapons. This wouldn't be immediately available, as even AT rogues take from the Wizard list, and Magic stones are only on the Warlock and Druid lists.

[Talionis]

When I read the title I thought you were throwing a magic stone and someone was casting Enlarge on the stone for more damage...

I think action economy keeps this in check. Cantripping 3 ammunition per round for your action isn't game changing. I do agree that adding even a little more damage to Assassinate might be a reason not to do this. I can't think of much else that would be something to worry over. With the possible exception is that the cantrip was carved out to push characters to use a sling and its basically the only benefits slings get in the game, and that by giving away the one cool thing that slings have you make sling use less a thing.

[Naanomi]

Rogues can already sneak attack with Magic Stone (my AL inquisitive plans to)

[Aett_Thorn]

When I read the title I thought you were throwing a magic stone and someone was casting Enlarge on the stone for more damage.

Same here. A reduced boulder would count as a pebble, right? Sling it, then end the concentration on Reduction, and away we go!

[Talionis]

Same here. A reduced boulder would count as a pebble, right? Sling it, then end the concentration on Reduction, and away we go!

I've never done it but that's a better idea. What would the damage on that be?

[Beelzebubba]

But...Rogues can...already Sneak Attack with ranged weapons?

So many people in this place can't read context to save their ****ing lives.

Sneak attack + no cover penalties +1200 feet range + magic weapon

Like I said, not completely overpowered, but gives a lot of new power to a new niche. Worth paying attention to.

[Beelzebubba]

Rogues can already sneak attack with Magic Stone (my AL inquisitive plans to)

DUH

Yes, at 120 feet max

Adding it to arrows makes it 1200 feet max

10x the range

[itsemery]

Do they get +2 from Archery fighting style also? I think that one could generate some really spirited arguments.


Interestingly, this doesn't actually step out of line of the vanilla magic stone. As long as you use a sling you qualify for archery fighting styles "attack roll with a ranged weapon" not unlike using the sling to proc sneak attack as well.

[JNAProductions]

How often do players have to deal with enemies resistant or immune to non-magical weapon damage without magic weapons? It's definitely useful if that DOES happen, but really, only then.

[Spectrulus]

Based on the wording for the spell, would using a Magic Stone with a sling deal 1d4+1d6+Casting Modifier on hit?

Does it just do 1d6 + Casting Mod?

[Vogie]

Based on the wording for the spell, would using a Magic Stone with a sling deal 1d4+1d6+Casting Modifier on hit?

Does it just do 1d6 + Casting Mod?

As far as I know, it'd still do 1d6 + Casting mod, even if slung by a sling (or, in this case, shot by a bow). The only difference is the range.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So many people in this place can't read context to save their ****ing lives.

Sneak attack + no cover penalties +1200 feet range + magic weapon

Like I said, not completely overpowered, but gives a lot of new power to a new niche. Worth paying attention to.
Most of Sharpshooter won't work, because it specifies a ranged WEAPON attack, and Magic Stone is a ranged SPELL attack. The -5/+10 bit might actually work, because that only specifies "attack with a ranged weapon you're proficient in," but that's not a good idea for Rogues in the first place.

Spell Sniper's second part (ignoring cover) would certainly work, but the first bit (doubled range) is iffy, since Magic Stone targets the rocks and not another creature. And since it's unclear how the 60ft range of Magic Stone would work with an arrow. Either way, Sharpshooter plus a normal ranged weapon gives you much more range


Tl;dr: Magic Stone is a ranged spell attack; Sharpshooter won't work.

[stoutstien]

I just make magic stone create more projectiles at latter lvs up to 8 stones. It already a niche cantrip. ( Your army of villagers can bypass mudane weapon resistance). I'm ok with it working with blow darts also.