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GimliFett
2007-09-06, 02:59 PM
I know I've seen it, I just can't remember where, but something lists Lantern Archon as an Improved Familiar. I've got a LG abjurer with Arcane Disciple and Consecrate Spell and I was planning on taking Improved Familiar at 9th to get the Lantern Archon, I just can't find the book that says they're a viable option.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-06, 03:03 PM
If you can't find it, you could look at having a Soulspark Familiar (which is very similar) from Magic of Incarnum.

Karsh
2007-09-06, 03:10 PM
Celestial Familiar feat, on page 41 of the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 03:22 PM
Celestial Familiar feat, on page 41 of the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Naturally, it's an Exalted feat, so you have to be above and beyond simply being Good to keep it.

Interestingly enough, as an Exalted feat, it is considered to be a Supernatural Ability. Anyone want to take bets on the poor Exalted Wizard who steps into an antimagic field with his Lantern Archon familiar?

GimliFett
2007-09-06, 03:29 PM
Thanks, Karsh. That's it, I think.

I'll have to take a look at the Soulspark thing, Fax. Thanks for the suggestion. Do you have to be a full incarnum-user for them?


Interestingly enough, as an Exalted feat, it is considered to be a Supernatural Ability. Anyone want to take bets on the poor Exalted Wizard who steps into an antimagic field with his Lantern Archon familiar?

Ooh. That's not right... :smalleek: Since it's not killed, I assume I could redo my familiar shortly thereafter. I hope... :smallfrown:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-06, 03:30 PM
You can take the Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar) and Open X Chakra feats (Throat is the best in this case) to acquire one without any level loss.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 03:46 PM
Ooh. That's not right... :smalleek: Since it's not killed, I assume I could redo my familiar shortly thereafter. I hope... :smallfrown:
Well, it's a more or less permanent ability, so whatever happens would be suppressed until the wizard and archon got out of the area. The Archon itself isn't summoned or inherently magical, so I assume all you really lose is the nifty familiar benefits. The Archon should still be there. Though, since you're a good guy, and a Lantern Archon is a sapient creature, you'll still be able to cooperate and all that. That's how I'd rule it anyway.

Luggage
2007-09-06, 03:58 PM
You can also take the Planar familiar feat from Planar Handbook.

You only have to be LG, not exalted, and I don't think it's supernatural.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 04:14 PM
You can also take the Planar familiar feat from Planar Handbook.

You only have to be LG, not exalted, and I don't think it's supernatural.
For a Lantern Archon? Kinda steppin' on Celestial Familiar's toes there, isn't it?

The only benefit for taking Celestial Familiar over Planar Familiar would be to qualify for abilities that require <x> Exalted feats. That just sucks.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-06, 04:28 PM
For a Lantern Archon? Kinda steppin' on Celestial Familiar's toes there, isn't it?

The only benefit for taking Celestial Familiar over Planar Familiar would be to qualify for abilities that require <x> Exalted feats. That just sucks.

PlHB is 3.5, BoED is 3.0. PlHB takes precedence, really, as to how it should work.

GimliFett
2007-09-06, 04:28 PM
Didn't Planar Handbook come out after BoED? It may have been an update-like-substance, if that is the case.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Fax. CURSES! Foiled again! :smallbiggrin:

Mewtarthio
2007-09-06, 04:38 PM
Besides, the Forces of Evil get Imps and Quasits as their familiars. Why shouldn't the Forces of Good get something? Besides the fact that Evil is generally cooler than Good, of course.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 04:39 PM
PlHB is 3.5, BoED is 3.0. PlHB takes precedence, really, as to how it should work.
Book of Exalted Deeds is very much 3.5. See the publication date of October 2003, three months after Player's Hanbook v.3.5 was released. See also the various 3.5-specific concepts such as "Damage reduction 5/magic" in the Vow of Poverty benefits.

It is Exalted Deeds's companion book, Book of Vile Darkness that is 3.0.

In any case, there is no revision precedence issue, even via publishing order, as Celestial Familiar and Planar Familiar are still different feats. As such, we can only assume the writers of Planar Handbook either weren't sufficiently familiar with Book of Exalted Deeds or they were just didn't care.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-06, 05:32 PM
The list of familiars for impfoved familiar isn't comprihensive, it's a suggested list of possibles to show what sort of power levels and level penalties are involved, if you want a lantern archon on there go for it. Just be aware that they're kind of distabalizingly powerful, a continuos protective emenation, tongues, greater teleport at will (ok only for its self but still) and an impecable character reference for all magistrates, clerics and foreign powers.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-06, 07:02 PM
Just be aware that they're kind of distabalizingly powerful, a continuos protective emenation, tongues, greater teleport at will (ok only for its self but still) and an impecable character reference for all magistrates, clerics and foreign powers.
Hence the appeal of tying them to an Exalted feat rather than simply a standard Improved Familiar.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-06, 07:17 PM
Exalted Feats from BoED: Only characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good-dieties, celestials or similar creatures. The feats are thus supernatural in nature rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are.

A character must have his DM's permission to take an exalted feat. In many cases a ritual must be performed in the presence of an exalted being. A character who willingly commits an evil act loses all benefits from exalted feats.

It would be simple to just learn the level 5 Call Faithful Guardians spell and summon a bunch of Coure, Mustevals or Lantern Archons for a year.

Awetugiw
2007-09-07, 05:57 AM
The list of familiars for impfoved familiar isn't comprihensive, it's a suggested list of possibles to show what sort of power levels and level penalties are involved, if you want a lantern archon on there go for it. Just be aware that they're kind of distabalizingly powerful, a continuos protective emenation, tongues, greater teleport at will (ok only for its self but still) and an impecable character reference for all magistrates, clerics and foreign powers.
Greater teleport at will for themselves AND 50 pounds. Like, say, a bag of holding with someone in it...

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-07, 07:46 AM
Amended post: A creative player can easily bypass the 50# Teleport without Error limit with low level spells normally available in game to a standard level 7 caster: Reduce (PHB) or Mass Reduce (PHB, SC) and a few rounds each way transporting the PCs and that's if just transporting individually. The transport limit is 50# so getting creative the PCs can transport more than one individual.

Alter Self.

Shrink Item is really nice depending on how it works in your campaign on PCs which is why I prefer Reduce.

Polymorph change that big over 400# non humanoid into something smaller under 50#.

I'm sure there are many other methods using spells, magic items (Portable Hole) and class abilities like Wild Shape to something under 50#.

Believe it was Hyperconscious (D20OGL) non Wizard's that has Teleport Auxiliary as a level 1 power.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 08:05 AM
Reduce or Mass Reduce and a few rounds each way tranporting the PCs.
Doesn't work so well with PCs who weigh over 400 lbs. or are non-Humanoids. Otherwise, go for it.

(Eh, you can stick those guys in the bag of holding! :smallbiggrin:)

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 08:30 AM
I suppose it's only a problem IF the DM allows it to be a problem. I also think the Lantern Archon might get a little irritated at being used in such a fashion, sort of like if you had your LA make everburning torches all day long on your days off --> that's 110gp per use, times 1440 uses in a day pays out: 158,400 gp IN ONE DAY! Imagine how irritated that LA would be?!?

Common sense should override any possible uses of such things. I know there are DMs who'll allow it, and Players who'll try it, but I'm not one of either and neither is anyone I play with in RL.

KillianHawkeye
2007-09-07, 09:00 AM
How would a Lantern Archon even carry 50 lbs. of stuff? They don't exactly have hands or opposable thumbs. :smallwink:

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 09:08 AM
My assumption is they wouldn't have to carry it so much as be in contact with it at the moment of teleporting with the intent of transporting it along with it. If that makes sense... :smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 09:09 AM
How would a Lantern Archon even carry 50 lbs. of stuff? They don't exactly have hands or opposable thumbs. :smallwink:
They don't have to be holding the gear. They just have to be touching it.

MrNexx
2007-09-07, 11:06 AM
Completely random question... How much does a lantern archon weigh?

GimliFett
2007-09-07, 11:09 AM
Dunno, it says it's a Small-sized ball of gas... Ummm, 10 ounces?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 11:18 AM
Yeah. Like only elementals and a few creatures with extra-detailed flavor text ever get weights given in their description. Your guess is as good as ours.

Ditto
2007-09-07, 10:29 PM
It's certainly not required that you take the Exalted feat. I've used Lantern Archon familiars under normal Improved Familiar rules in the past. It's certainly open to interpretation, as has been pointed, out, but it's not explicitly stated that a Celestial Familiar cannot also be on the Improved list. (Balance-wise, it makes sense, as Windrider pointed out. Still...) They definitely kick some major butt as faithful friends. (Blink dogs are fun, too!)

The Teleport trick doesn't work like that, does it? It says objects - I would interpret it as 'I'm going to press the Teleport button, but it won't work if Persons are moving with me'. I've never understood if picking up a bag of holding with a person in it like that would count... I know I've gotten around the Mage Hand rule of 'no handling magic items' by putting my immovable rod in a sheath, and pressing the edge of the sheath in to activate it. Teleportation can't really be 'tricked', though, since touching the caster doesn't automatically drag you along in the wake (like in Star Trek)... am I right?


Exalted Feats from BoED: Only characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good-dieties, celestials or similar creatures. The feats are thus supernatural in nature rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are.

Screw that. The archon is a powerful agent of me!

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-07, 10:47 PM
The Teleport trick doesn't work like that, does it? It says objects - I would interpret it as 'I'm going to press the Teleport button, but it won't work if Persons are moving with me'.
Ah, yes! I didn't actually read the Lantern Archon description when making my earlier posts. Indeed, an Archon can only bring objects with it, not other creatures.

I really don't know how the rules handle Creatures inside of Objects, though. Especially if the object has a extra/nondimensional space.