How Important is Extra Attack on a Multiclass Rogue?

[KOLE]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if someone has done the math on this? It’s no secret that Rogue is one of the best classes for multiclassing (outside of some of those crazy CHA caster combos, of course), and as someone who’s a huge fan of both multiclassing and rogues, it’s a subject that’s very interesting to me. My current character is a Barb, planning to multiclass into Rogue after extra attack at level 5.

This was my first multi build, and it’s far from optimized as I decided to go dex barb, shield master, rogue x after barb 5 for multiattack. But I’m wondering if it would have been better to stop at level 2 for reckless attack (a core part of the build) and kept going x rogue as sneak attack dice are very important. Sneak attack dice build so linearly that I wonder if mathematically speaking you’ll end up doing more damage by ignoring picking up extra attack (so, stopping before level 5 for most classes) and instead focus on building up our SA dice. What do you all think?

[CTurbo]

I'd say it's fairly important to have the second attack, but not critical. It does double your chances to land your Sneak Attack. I think Barb 5 would be worth it as you get to choose a Barb subclass, ASI, extra 10ft movement, and extra attack.

1/3 of Shield Master is Str based so I would not make a Dex based character and also take Shield Master. Why were you wanting Shield Master? Reckless Attack is already going to give you advantage on your attacks. I'd rather have a Dual Wielding Dex Barb/Rogue and then it's less important to get that second attack.

OR, just make it a Str Barb/Rogue. You can still use Str with Finesse weapons for Sneak Attack.

EDIT: Consider Barb 2, Fighter 1 for TWF Style and Second Wind, Rogue 17

[MeeposFire]

Extra attack is great since it can give you extra damage and more importantly allows you to not have to use a bonus action to get a second attack. That bonus action can be used for disengaging, hiding, etc and having an extra hand open can be great such as using a shield (assuming you got prof from a multiclass or feat).

However it is not required by any means. The second attack from two weapon fighting is often times more than enough and if you hit with your first attack then getting a second attack is nice but not required. Also if you want more damage but are willing to go more all or nothing you can instead go with SCAG cantrips (I personally like booming blade) rather extra attack (you can get the bonus action attack back with the SCAG cantrips if you 7 levels of EK fighter though obviously that slows down your rogue progression a bit).

[OvisCaedo]

This was my first multi build, and it’s far from optimized as I decided to go dex barb, shield master, rogue x after barb 5 for multiattack. But I’m wondering if it would have been better to stop at level 2 for reckless attack (a core part of the build)

Er... Is your DM letting you houserule/change the Barbarian a bit? By default, reckless attack is only allowed to work with strength-based attack rolls. Though that might be a late realization if you've already started and your DM decides to be a stickler about it.

If you plan on going heavy rogue, I'd also suggest carefully considering what you want from shield master. One of its features is entirely obsoleted by the Rogue's Evasion ability. I'd say the shove isn't well suited for a dex character, but honestly it probably works alright as rogue if you decided to take athletics expertise. The only problem for feature three is being sure that it's what you want to use your bonus action on as a rogue (and whether or not your GM decides to go with Crawford's most recent ruling that you can only use the shield master's bonus action shove after your regular attack action is fully completed). The other component would be a slight bonus to single-target dex saves, but I don't think there are really THAT many of those...? They certainly exist, though.

[denthor]

Remember if you rage you lose any form of attack that needs precision like sneak attack.

[Ali_face]

Remember if you rage you lose any form of attack that needs precision like sneak attack.

Thats just not true.

Theres nothing about Rage that denies you sneak attack as long as you meet the other requirements.

This question has already been resolved by sage advice:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/26/can-a-barbarianrogue-get-sneak-attack-bonus-while-ragingreckless-attacking/

[Composer99]

Is that a ghost of WiF editions past creeping in? Because the only action prohibited by RAW when raging is casting or concentrating on a spell.

I mean, technically, you can even, say, work on delicate clockwork or filigree metalwork while raging, although I'd rule against that sort of thing.

[MaxWilson]

I mean, technically, you can even, say, work on delicate clockwork or filigree metalwork while raging, although I'd rule against that sort of thing.

A ruling is probably unnecessary, since even by strict RAW, your rage will end if you don't make any attacks or take damage (unless you are very high-level). Spend six seconds working on a clockwork puzzle instead of punching people? Boom, no more rage.

[HMS Invincible]

A ruling is probably unnecessary, since even by strict RAW, your rage will end if you don't make any attacks or take damage (unless you are very high-level). Spend six seconds working on a clockwork puzzle instead of punching people? Boom, no more rage.

Unless you are making a clockwork puzzle while it rains arrows on you. Then you can work on it for the full minute.

The bigger problem is that reckless attack is only for str based attacks/ability checks.

[MeeposFire]

You can make a great rogue/barb but you really want to have str as your primary attack stat (and remember you need at least a 13 in both str and dex just by multiclassing those two classes no matter how you do it). If you do that this whole thing works out very nicely. Going dex primary leads to it not being worth it since rage and reckless attack do not work with dex for damage and so you would be better off going fighter.

[PeteNutButter]

To answer the OP, extra is very important. The math isn’t that hard. With a rapier and dueling style you only need an 18 in str or dex to deal the same amount of damage that 5 rogue levels gives you (10.5). Magic weapons and higher stats easily push it over the sneak attack damage.

Now you go from a rough average of 65% chance of landing sneak attack to 87%. That means the more rogue levels you have the more you get from extra attack. What makes it all even better is classes are front loaded so if you’ve already multiclassed you are probably getting more from moving up to level 5 in the class and grabbing extra attack.

[Foxolicious]

I would choose assassin / battle master
Battle maneuvers allow you character to add extra chances to attack for example on first attack you can trip an allow for advantage on attacking prone enemies this partnered with action surge would allow you to attack 2-3 more times at advantage this is mostly for being a melee rogue

You also multiclass easier since you only need a 13 in str or dex

Short sword attack

1d6 + dex + sneak + battle maneuver to trip
Off hand 1d6 + dex at advantage
2nd attack 1d6 + dex
Action surge
1d6 + dex
Off hand 1d6 + dex
2nd attack 1d6 + dex

[CTurbo]

I would choose assassin / battle master
Battle maneuvers allow you character to add extra chances to attack for example on first attack you can trip an allow for advantage on attacking prone enemies this partnered with action surge would allow you to attack 2-3 more times at advantage this is mostly for being a melee rogue

You also multiclass easier since you only need a 13 in str or dex

Short sword attack

1d6 + dex + sneak + battle maneuver to trip
Off hand 1d6 + dex at advantage
2nd attack 1d6 + dex
Action surge
1d6 + dex
Off hand 1d6 + dex
2nd attack 1d6 + dex


Battle Master 6, Gloom Stalker 3, Assassin 11

1st attack,

main hand - 1d6+dex+sneak damage
main hand - 1d6+dex
extra main hand - 1d6+dex+1d8
off hand - 1d6+dex
Action surge
main hand - 1d6+dex
main hand - 1d6+dex
extra main hand - 1d6+dex+1d8


Every attack would have advantage if the enemy hasn't had it's turn yet. You have advantage on Initiate to help you go first anyway. If the enemy is surprised, every attack is an auto crit. Action surge does not grant an extra attack with the off hand. If enemy is a favored enemy, add +2 damage to every attack.

[Foxolicious]

Battle Master 6, Gloom Stalker 3, Assassin 11

1st attack,

main hand - 1d6+dex+sneak damage
main hand - 1d6+dex
extra main hand - 1d6+dex+1d8
off hand - 1d6+dex
Action surge
main hand - 1d6+dex
main hand - 1d6+dex
extra main hand - 1d6+dex+1d8


Every attack would have advantage if the enemy hasn't had it's turn yet. You have advantage on Initiate to help you go first anyway. If the enemy is surprised, every attack is an auto crit. Action surge does not grant an extra attack with the off hand. If enemy is a favored enemy, add +2 damage to every attack.

Not sure where ur getting 3 main hand attacks from and is the d8 your battle maneuver?

[Master O'Laughs]

Not sure where ur getting 3 main hand attacks from and is the d8 your battle maneuver?

I believe the extra main hand attack and the 1d8 is from gloomstalker. it only applies on the first turn of combat if you go before an enemy.

[CTurbo]

Not sure where ur getting 3 main hand attacks from and is the d8 your battle maneuver?

The Gloom Stalker gets an extra first round attack every combat and if that attack hits, it deals an extra 1d8 damage. I didn't include any maneuver dice in there.

I forgot to mention that the Riposte maneuver allows you to use Sneak Attack again with your reaction which is awesome.

[Foxolicious]

I believe the extra main hand attack and the 1d8 is from gloomstalker. it only applies on the first turn of combat if you go before an enemy.

That's what I thought but he only took 3 levels of ranger and extra attacks between classes don't stack just like the unarmored defences

Ranger gets an extra attack at 5 I believe

[CTurbo]

That's what I thought but he only took 3 levels of ranger and extra attacks between classes don't stack just like the unarmored defences

Ranger gets an extra attack at 5 I believe

That's not the Ranger's level 5 extra attack. It's the Gloom Stalker's level 3 Dread Ambusher feature. It does stack with anything.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/ranger:gloom-stalker

[Foxolicious]

That's not the Ranger's level 5 extra attack. It's the Gloom Stalker's level 3 Dread Ambusher feature. It does stack with anything.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/ranger:gloom-stalker

From reading that Dread ambusher gives you an extra attack per first turn of combat not per action. Action surge does not give you another turn but another action

[CTurbo]

From reading that Dread ambusher gives you an extra attack per first turn of combat not per action. Action surge does not give you another turn but another action

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/950172203424731136?lang=en

[Foxolicious]

Just doesn't make sense to me because your "ambushing" twice on the same turn

And do you have source for using sneak attack with riposte?

[smcmike]

The one thing I’d add is that a barbarogue is a specialist in shoving and/or grabbing, and getting an additional attack per round gives you more opportunities to push people around.



And do you have source for using sneak attack with riposte?

The source is the wording of Sneak Attack, which is limited to once per turn. Any off-turn attack gives you a second Sneak Attack, which is why Sentinel is also good for rogues.

[Master O'Laughs]

Just doesn't make sense to me because your "ambushing" twice on the same turn

And do you have source for using sneak attack with riposte?

Sneak attack under rogue states you can use it once per turn. After the rogue ends their turn, it is another PC or creatures turn, thereby refreshing sneak attack. At most you can only use it twice per round unless you figure out a way to overcome the limiting 1 reaction.

Can a rogue use Sneak Attack more than once per
round? Yes, but no more than once per turn. In combat, a
round comprises the turns of the combatants (see the Player’s
Handbook, p. 189). Many features in the game, such
as Extra Attack, specify that they work only on your turn.
The Sneak Attack description specifies that you can use the
feature once per turn, but it’s not limited to your turn. The
feature also doesn’t limit the number of times you can use it
in a round.
This rule is relevant because you sometimes get a chance
to use Sneak Attack on someone else’s turn. The most
common way for this to happen is when a foe provokes an
opportunity attack from you. If the requirements for Sneak
Attack are met, your opportunity attack can benefit from
that feature. Similarly, a fighter could use Commander’s
Strike to grant you an attack on the fighter’s turn, and if the
attack qualifies, it can use Sneak Attack. Both of those options
rely on your reaction, so you could do only one of them
in a round.
Because of getting only one reaction per round, you’re unlikely
to use Sneak Attack more than twice in a round: once
with your action and once with your reaction.

[samcifer]

Thats just not true.

Theres nothing about Rage that denies you sneak attack as long as you meet the other requirements.

This question has already been resolved by sage advice:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/26/can-a-barbarianrogue-get-sneak-attack-bonus-while-ragingreckless-attacking/

Also according to the PHB on a somewhat related note during my research, you can use Strength instead of Dexterity for Monk attacks as well.

But if the Barbarian is using a finesse weapon like a rapier, he can still get the Sneak Attack using a Strength attack. The only rule on SA that counts here is that the melee weapon used bust be a finesse weapon.

[guachi]

The highest amount of reactions I think you can get in a round (the combat round not the vaguely defined personal round) is three.

Spend a reaction before your turn (1)
Get your reaction back on your turn.
Be a level 17 Rogue. Get a second turn in the first round of combat.
Spend a reaction before your second turn (2).
Get your reaction back on your second turn.
Spend a reaction before the end of the round (3).

I'll concur that a Battlemaster/Rogue is very powerful. How it plays at the table is heavily influenced by which class you take first - and whichever class you take first I'd recommend going to level 5 ASAP as the level 5 features are quite good for basically every class.

Circling back to reactions, if you have an Assassin and any way to reliably get an attack on your reaction you can do amazing things on the first round of combat if the enemy is surprised. Example, the Battlemaster that uses a Maneuver die to grant an attack to the Assassin. Conceivably you could get two sneak attacks at Advantage and both be automatic critical hits.

[Foxolicious]

I thought sneak attack referred once per turn and reactions as far as I know do not give you another turn but is actually part of your turn phase

Action
Movement
Bonus action*
Reaction

[smcmike]

I thought sneak attack referred once per turn and reactions as far as I know do not give you another turn but is actually part of your turn phase

Action
Movement
Bonus action*
Reaction

Reread the section on reactions (PHB 190). They “can occur on your turn or someone else’s.”

[Foxolicious]

Reread the section on reactions (PHB 190). They “can occur on your turn or someone else’s.”

Yes agreed however sneak attack only happens once per turn just because you initiate it some on someone else's turn doesn't mean you get sneak attack twice

Once on your turn and once as a reaction

[Asmotherion]

Entirelly optional. I believe there are far better options out there, especially on a Rogue.

Scag Cantrips are a better use of your action IMO (either aquired via magic initiate, your multiclass, OR Arcane Tricster), since they give you scaling by level extra dice on your sneak attack. What's not to love?

And if you really want to optimise your to-hit chances, get yourself Faerie Fire (via Magic Initiate for example). Bonus if you're an Elf or Half Elf and can get access to Elven Accuracy.

[smcmike]

Yes agreed however sneak attack only happens once per turn just because you initiate it some on someone else's turn doesn't mean you get sneak attack twice

Once on your turn and once as a reaction

I don’t completely understand what you are saying here.

Sneak attack can happen ”once per turn.” While that obviously means you can’t sneak attack twice in a turn, it doesn’t mean you can’t do so twice in a round, which is a different thing from a turn.

If you attack during your own turn and also during someone else’s, those are different turns, and therefore you may sneak attack both times.

[Master O'Laughs]

Furthermore, if you had a way to obtain unlimited opportunity attacks (ie. the tunnel fighting fighting style from UA), you could sneak attack an unlimited amount of times in a round so long as each enemy provokes one and you meet the other requirements of sneak attack.

[Citan]

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if someone has done the math on this? It’s no secret that Rogue is one of the best classes for multiclassing (outside of some of those crazy CHA caster combos, of course), and as someone who’s a huge fan of both multiclassing and rogues, it’s a subject that’s very interesting to me. My current character is a Barb, planning to multiclass into Rogue after extra attack at level 5.

This was my first multi build, and it’s far from optimized as I decided to go dex barb, shield master, rogue x after barb 5 for multiattack. But I’m wondering if it would have been better to stop at level 2 for reckless attack (a core part of the build) and kept going x rogue as sneak attack dice are very important. Sneak attack dice build so linearly that I wonder if mathematically speaking you’ll end up doing more damage by ignoring picking up extra attack (so, stopping before level 5 for most classes) and instead focus on building up our SA dice. What do you all think?
Hi!

My take is that it depends on the kind of multiclass, but for you it's kinda important.
After all, was not the multiclass into Rogue to get nice bonus actions, Expertise for Shoving and added damage?

So even if you could (although it's not advised) to systematically use Reckless Attack OR use Shield Master's bonus action to shove prone, thus generating advantage, I'd still want an extra chance to land Sneak Attack myself.

Especially since Barb gets high AC, resistance to physical at least and advantage on DEX saves, + STR and CON saves, so it's not like you *need* Evasion or Uncanny Dodge as soon as possible.
And you should not forget about the added attack mod and rage mod, meaning one extra weapon attack easily results in an average between 2d6 and 3d6 average, except much closer to the latter if STR :
2d6: average 7.
3d6: average 10.5.
Average weapon attack for level 5 Barb with 1d8 weapon, +attack on ASI-: 4.5+4+2 = 10. Although if you went DEX you won't get the +2.

Still as you see, you get the equivalent of at least 4 levels of Rogue (just on the "Sneak Attack extra damage" aspect of course), except better because more consistent (minimum 5 -DEX- or 7 -STR-) and overall more damage (because one more chance to deal damage).

With that said, throwing Extra Attack aside would work very well too, you trade higher chance of hitting and higher damage to get access to great Rogue features earlier...
If you aim for damage mainly and go STR, Barb main and high.
If you aim for damage mainly and go DEX, Barb first then forget after Extra Attack.
If you aim for another kind of DEX multiclass, you can safely limit Barbarian (I'd still go at least 3 levels for archetype benefits though).

Have fun :=)

[Foxolicious]

I don’t completely understand what you are saying here.

Sneak attack can happen ”once per turn.” While that obviously means you can’t sneak attack twice in a turn, it doesn’t mean you can’t do so twice in a round, which is a different thing from a turn.

If you attack during your own turn and also during someone else’s, those are different turns, and therefore you may sneak attack both times.

I'm saying your reaction is part of your turn it may happen on someone else's but it's still technically part of your turn

[smcmike]

I'm saying your reaction is part of your turn it may happen on someone else's but it's still technically part of your turn

Where do you find support for that idea? They are listed under a different heading from “Your Turn” in the book, and every interaction with the designers since publishing has confirmed that you are able to sneak attack again as a reaction.

[Foxolicious]

Where do you find support for that idea? They are listed under a different heading from “Your Turn” in the book, and every interaction with the designers since publishing has confirmed that you are able to sneak attack again as a reaction.

My bad just looked it up.

www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/

[Phoenix042]

Unless you are making a clockwork puzzle while it rains arrows on you. Then you can work on it for the full minute.

In the final seconds of the battle, arrows raining down from the sky, the bloody, ragged wizard works furiously on the device that will send the raven queen's armies back to the shadowfell.
His allies are down around him, the rogue and the cleric unconscious and dying, the bard already dead.
"Hurry up!" shouts the barbarian, equally covered in blood, holding his shield over both of them as arrows plink off its surface "they're coming over the hill."
"Almost ready!" says the wizard, reaching for the last few pieces. A loud *thunk*reverberates through the air, and the barbarian looks around to see the wizard crumpled over, felled by a lucky shot.
"NO!" he screams, dropping his shield. Immediately, the arrows begin to strike his unguarded back, but in his fury and shock, he barely feels them. He bends over the device in the wizards slackened hands, and in utter desperation, he reaches down and begins to work. He knows nothing of clockworks, or of arcane magic, but the wizard has done most of the work. His heart hammers, his fury building as he realizes that the raven queen has surely won, that her armies will pour over this earth and leave only death in their wake.

His wife, his children...

"NO!" he screams, his vision turning deep crimson. He reaches for a piece at random and jams it into a likely-looking spot. There's a click, and the piece stays in place. Another arrow strikes his chest, and he grunts but doesn't turn. Two more pieces. He tries once, twice to fit them in, as an arrow finds his neck and another bounces off his hardened skull, leaving a deep gash. Then he turns the pieces over and tries again.
Click.
Click.
By shear dumb luck, the pieces fall into place.
The device whirs to life, and the barbarian roars in triumph with his final breath, pressing the button as he collapses into unconsciousness. His last sensation is of the power pouring forth from the device, and his last thought is of his wife.





You could ABSOLUTELY work on clockwork while raging. Any DM who says otherwise is a tool.