Some Questions on Erudites

[Zombulian]

Hey all, I've been looking at Erudites recently. They interest me, but I know they can get a little out of hand, so I have a few questions.

1) Just a quick clarification: the text in the book says
Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. The way that I've seen this discussed online, people seem to imply that at level 20 an Erudite can only make use of 11 powers in a day, but my reading seems to suggest that a 20th level Erudite would be able to make use of 11 powers of each level per day. Am I wrong?

2) I'm nervous about making a STP Erudite as I feel it could get out of hand quickly, so I was considering the Mantled Erudite. Is there a solid pick I should make that would really benefit this type of Psionic character?

3) I understand that since you have no spellbook and you don't actually have to prepare your powers beforehand, the memorization of new powers is slightly more powerful than simply adding spells to a spell list. My group doesn't really play with XP though, so what do you think would be a good GP conversion of the 20 xp per Erudite level?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You're correct about the power rate for the StP erudite. It's a lot, and a lot of people find that it's way too much, with the alternate (alas, incorrect) interpretation being far too little. Perhaps homebrew it so that you get one UPPD per PrC & erudite-granted ML, total, plus one at 1st level? Doesn't count magic items, feats, etc. Or maybe just base it on your HD, instead.

Also, the standard XP to GP conversion rate is 5 GP per XP.

[Troacctid]

Hey all, I've been looking at Erudites recently. They interest me, but I know they can get a little out of hand, so I have a few questions.

1) Just a quick clarification: the text in the book says The way that I've seen this discussed online, people seem to imply that at level 20 an Erudite can only make use of 11 powers in a day, but my reading seems to suggest that a 20th level Erudite would be able to make use of 11 powers of each level per day. Am I wrong?
The book is wrong. This is a copy/paste error from the original version of the Erudite that appeared in Dragon Magazine, which had a different limit for each power level. So, it's a typo, and it's supposed to be unique powers per day.


2) I'm nervous about making a STP Erudite as I feel it could get out of hand quickly, so I was considering the Mantled Erudite. Is there a solid pick I should make that would really benefit this type of Psionic character?
It depends on what you're going for. Different mantles support different strategies.


3) I understand that since you have no spellbook and you don't actually have to prepare your powers beforehand, the memorization of new powers is slightly more powerful than simply adding spells to a spell list. My group doesn't really play with XP though, so what do you think would be a good GP conversion of the 20 xp per Erudite level?
The usual standard is 1 xp = 5 gp.

[Psyren]

As Troacctid stated, Erudite is a victim of poor editing based on its Dragon Magazine incarnation. If your DM is willing to let you have more unique powers per day than you could ever hope to learn, by all means go nuts, but saying that was authorial intent doesn't seem likely to me.

[Zombulian]

The book is wrong. This is a copy/paste error from the original version of the Erudite that appeared in Dragon Magazine, which had a different limit for each power level. So, it's a typo, and it's supposed to be unique powers per day.

So you're saying that a level 20 Erudite has 11 unique powers per day total?


It depends on what you're going for. Different mantles support different strategies.

Yeah, classic vague question issue I suppose. I was more wondering about a mantle that would give me the most bang for my buck in terms of grabbing me powers not on the Psion list. Freedom seems like a good one for netting generally good powers that work for a lot of situations.


The usual standard is 1 xp = 5 gp.

Also, the standard XP to GP conversion rate is 5 GP per XP.

Ah. Well that should work I suppose.

[Psyren]

So you're saying that a level 20 Erudite has 11 unique powers per day total?

That's what the table would suggest. Personally, I would give them something less restrictive (a total that matches the Ardent's powers per day rather than the Wilder's) but be nowhere near as liberal as the textual reading in the OP.

[Zombulian]

That's what the table would suggest. Personally, I would give them something less restrictive (a total that matches the Ardent's powers per day rather than the Wilder's) but be nowhere near as liberal as the textual reading in the OP.

Hmm yeah that's probably the move. Maybe just keep the 1st level of Erudite the same though so they cap out at 20 UPPD.

[Troacctid]

I think having the same number of UPPD as the Wilder has powers known is reasonable. I also don't think the Spell to Power variant is overpowered. In my view, the biggest design problems with the class as written are:

You can't take prestige classes, not just because they don't advance UPPD, but also because they trigger your multiclass restriction.
The cost of learning a power scales with class level instead of power level, so it's more difficult to learn a 1st level power as a level 20 Erudite than it was at level 1, which is just nonsense.

[Zombulian]

I think having the same number of UPPD as the Wilder has powers known is reasonable. I also don't think the Spell to Power variant is overpowered. In my view, the biggest design problems with the class as written are:

You can't take prestige classes, not just because they don't advance UPPD, but also because they trigger your multiclass restriction.
The cost of learning a power scales with class level instead of power level, so it's more difficult to learn a 1st level power as a level 20 Erudite than it was at level 1, which is just nonsense.


I was thinking similarly, but the fact that Wilder and Ardent both have 3/4 BAB kinda made me want to be more sympathetic. Why is StP not overpowered? I do find it funny that they nerfed blasting spells so they would act more like Powers even though Psionics is already pretty damn good at blasting.
Regarding 1, where does it say anything about multiclass restriction? That seems strange. When it comes to UPPD, I think a reasonable DM would rule that those are a part of your Psionic advancement, though I suppose you're referring to the RAW of most Psionic PrC's saying they only advance "Power Points and Powers Known."
Regarding 2, yeah, I thought that was weirdly handled. Like it costs more for a 5th level Erudite to learn a 1st level power than a 1st level Erudite? But also it costs an Erudite 5/PrC 5 LESS to learn a power than an Erudite 6? This class is clearly a mess.

Edit: The rule I think I'll employ will be adding a power to an Erudite's list will cost 20xp(or 100gp) x the Minimum Manifester Level required to manifest that power. Sound reasonable enough? It'll still get expensive, but more reasonably.

[Nifft]

Erudite works really well as a Dorje & Power Stone mini-Artificer.

Also, it's fantastic as a Cohort, since any Psion can link minds with you and use any power you know even if it's not one of your current UPpD choices.

[Zombulian]

Erudite works really well as a Dorje & Power Stone mini-Artificer.

Also, it's fantastic as a Cohort, since any Psion can link minds with you and use any power you know even if it's not one of your current UPpD choices.

Ah yes. Metaconcert is a must. Even just being an Erudite, you can just manifest Metaconcert yourself and start slangin.

[Nifft]

Ah yes. Metaconcert is a must. Even just being an Erudite, you can just manifest Metaconcert yourself and start slangin.

That's also cool, but what I meant was this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown

[Zombulian]

That's also cool, but what I meant was this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown

Ohh right I forgot about that rule. Neat.

[Troacctid]

I was thinking similarly, but the fact that Wilder and Ardent both have 3/4 BAB kinda made me want to be more sympathetic. Why is StP not overpowered? I do find it funny that they nerfed blasting spells so they would act more like Powers even though Psionics is already pretty damn good at blasting.
Because you don't actually have the utility of knowing all the spells, so you can't take advantage of them the way a more traditional caster could. Your UPPD is low enough that there's a major opportunity cost. Also, you're a level behind on everything. All in all you're just a worse Wizard than a Wizard.


Regarding 1, where does it say anything about multiclass restriction? That seems strange.
"If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known."

So if you ever have more levels in a psionic prestige class (and prestige classes totally count as psionic classes) than you do in Erudite, you get nerfed into the ground.


Edit: The rule I think I'll employ will be adding a power to an Erudite's list will cost 20xp(or 100gp) x the Minimum Manifester Level required to manifest that power. Sound reasonable enough? It'll still get expensive, but more reasonably.
I would just use the same price a Wizard would pay to scribe a spell of that level into her book.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Not this again. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Erudite+Handbook

[Zombulian]

Not this again. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Erudite+Handbook

Cool it bub. Weird thay your lmgtfy link took me to the handbook but when I googled it personally I got dead links and GitP threads talking about how it was dead. I blame cookies.


Because you don't actually have the utility of knowing all the spells, so you can't take advantage of them the way a more traditional caster could. Your UPPD is low enough that there's a major opportunity cost. Also, you're a level behind on everything. All in all you're just a worse Wizard than a Wizard.

What do you mean by not "knowing all the spells"? If you learn it you know it, though yes, UPPD gets in the way of being able to prepare a spell for 1 use only. Also you're wrong about power progression. Erudites get 9ths at 17.



"If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known."

So if you ever have more levels in a psionic prestige class (and prestige classes totally count as psionic classes) than you do in Erudite, you get nerfed into the ground.

Ah yeah I read that but didn't connect the dots that a PrC could be a Psionic Class. Well that's dumb.


I would just use the same price a Wizard would pay to scribe a spell of that level into her book.

I considered this but thought the on-demand nature of Power Knowledge would change things, though your UPPD opportunity cost argument does hold water.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Go psion, get yourself a couple of nested thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes), and take a StP erudite with psychic chirurgery as a cohort. Now, have him-slash-her (hir?) or N/A (for illithids) implant all of his/her/hir/its/etc powers known into your head. Laugh at the very idea of UPPDs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As a variant on the UPPD restriction, I'd consider the table value + INT modifier. I mean, wizards get more unique spells per day for having high Intelligence (because they get more slots), so why not erudites?

[Zombulian]

Go psion, get yourself a couple of nested thought bottles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes), and take a StP erudite with psychic chirurgery as a cohort. Now, have him-slash-her (hir?) or N/A (for illithids) implant all of his/her/hir/its/etc powers known into your head. Laugh at the very idea of UPPDs.

I mean I know that Psion getting Psychic Chirurgery is better, but I play in games with people.

[Crichton]

That's what the table would suggest. Personally, I would give them something less restrictive (a total that matches the Ardent's powers per day rather than the Wilder's) but be nowhere near as liberal as the textual reading in the OP.

That's not a bad option. The route I always go is to make Erudites follow the UPPD table from Dragon 319, but use the XP costs from Complete Psionic. The UPPD from CPsi is way to restrictive, and basically forces players to use RAW but annoying cheese to get around the restrictions, but the XP costs from Dragon are basically negligible, so melding the two, I find, makes an Erudite who is at a power level to truly be called a variant Psion, as was the intention, but also isn't completely unrestricted.


I think having the same number of UPPD as the Wilder has powers known is reasonable.

With much respect, I disagree with our esteemed colleague Troacctid on the UPPD issue. Restricting them to Wilder levels doesn't leave them comparable to Psions in overall power level, but they were intended to be a variant of the Psion system. It works, but it doesn't seem to fit with what my conception of an Erudite is suppose to be.


As a variant on the UPPD restriction, I'd consider the table value + INT modifier. I mean, wizards get more unique spells per day for having high Intelligence (because they get more slots), so why not erudites?

This, also is a great option. It falls more towards the restricted number of UPPD than my Dragon Mag solution, but not so bad as 11 UPPD.



Regarding 2, yeah, I thought that was weirdly handled. Like it costs more for a 5th level Erudite to learn a 1st level power than a 1st level Erudite? But also it costs an Erudite 5/PrC 5 LESS to learn a power than an Erudite 6? This class is clearly a mess.

Edit: The rule I think I'll employ will be adding a power to an Erudite's list will cost 20xp(or 100gp) x the Minimum Manifester Level required to manifest that power. Sound reasonable enough? It'll still get expensive, but more reasonably.

That's not a bad option either. Usually I leave the XP rules as the primary way to keep Erudites from cheaply just knowing every power immediately. While they can learn any power, the cost makes them choose which ones are worth it.

[Psyren]

Hmm yeah that's probably the move. Maybe just keep the 1st level of Erudite the same though so they cap out at 20 UPPD.

I'd be okay with them topping out at 21, especially if it means they get 2 UPD at 1st level. Still more restrictive than a psion (who get 3 different powers at 1st level) but it lets you pick one for combat and one for utility.

[Nifft]

I'd be okay with them topping out at 21, especially if it means they get 2 UPD at 1st level. Still more restrictive than a psion (who get 3 different powers at 1st level) but it lets you pick one for combat and one for utility.

Wilder +1 would work for me -- they'd start with 2, and top out at 12.

[Troacctid]

What do you mean by not "knowing all the spells"? If you learn it you know it, though yes, UPPD gets in the way of being able to prepare a spell for 1 use only.
In theory you know all the spells. In practice, there's a large swath of spells that are not practical to use with the erudite's casting mechanic (like long-duration buffs), and another large swath of spells that simply aren't worth spending xp to learn because of how niche they are. Most spells in general are also just not more powerful than powers—yes, you can get polymorph, but you already had metamorphosis. You can get summon monster, but you already had astral construct. You can get wish, but you already had reality revision. Etc.


Also you're wrong about power progression. Erudites get 9ths at 17.
Spells count as discipline powers for you, and an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power they can manifest.


Wilder +1 would work for me -- they'd start with 2, and top out at 12.
Agree, but I also think Wilder +1 works better for the Wilder.

[ZamielVanWeber]

StP Erudite is OP if you have the insanely generous reading of the UPPD and with a number of specific spells. Otherwise it is a spiffy trick they have and is good for helping to relieve pressure on other casting classes to have certain tools available to them.

[Nifft]

Agree, but I also think Wilder +1 works better for the Wilder. IMHO Wilder needs a complete overhaul.

Their whole "fail more often as you advance" thing is just bad.

[Zombulian]

Spells count as discipline powers for you, and an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power they can manifest.

Well shoot! Missed that somehow. Hmm I'm starting to think this class isn't nearly as OP as it's touted to be.

[DMVerdandi]

Yeah, Use the dragon version of erudite. It's better and ironically more balanced.


4 Unique powers per spell level. That's it. If you want more, you have to spend a feat.
Each spell level is blank until it's used. If you Manifest A,B,C,D that's it, but afterwards you can re-use whichever powers you have manifested.

So at level 20, you aren't running around with 11 9th level powers. You have 4 to set.
Maximum number of UPPD is 36, which is the same number of spells known as a psion. Psion is the psionic sorcerer, 319 Erudite is the wizard, and the complete psionic erudite is some product of unholy acts that produced it as wretched spawn.


Add Convert spell to power and yes, it is for all intended purposes a BETTER wizard. Like, A LOT better, BUT. It doesn't have access to many of the arcane Prc's that really take wizard to it's heights, nor some of the meta-magic cheese[though it has it's own].

It's stupid strong, but as long as the player isn't just stupid stupid, it allows you insane amounts of flexibility in finally making the caster/manifester that you always wanted.
No spell book garbage, near perfect spell/power list, not having to deal with vancian casting, Quantum power slots, power points...


319 erudite + Convert spell to power is probably the most powerful combination, but that isn't the important part, the important part is it's the most flexible[tied with archivist, and artificer], and thus the most flavorful. IMO best class in the game, and by far my favorite. I have always advocated using it more like a sorcerer, and having spells that you select that you really focus on, but keeping maybe 2-3 slots for clutch manifesting.

[Psyren]

Agree, but I also think Wilder +1 works better for the Wilder.

I mean, if it helps, Educated Wilder is Wilder+4, basically for free. (+5 if you throw in Hidden Talent.)


IMHO Wilder needs a complete overhaul.

Their whole "fail more often as you advance" thing is just bad.

Yeah.

Some - not all, but some - of the Pathfinder variants/surges are pretty decent to port back as a buff. (One of them, Student Wilder, is basically Educated Wilder plus additional stuff.)

[Crichton]

Yeah, Use the dragon version of erudite. It's better and ironically more balanced.


4 Unique powers per spell level. That's it. If you want more, you have to spend a feat.
Each spell level is blank until it's used. If you Manifest A,B,C,D that's it, but afterwards you can re-use whichever powers you have manifested.

So at level 20, you aren't running around with 11 9th level powers. You have 4 to set.
Maximum number of UPPD is 36, which is the same number of spells known as a psion. Psion is the psionic sorcerer, 319 Erudite is the wizard, and the complete psionic erudite is some product of unholy acts that produced it as wretched spawn.


Add Convert spell to power and yes, it is for all intended purposes a BETTER wizard. Like, A LOT better, BUT. It doesn't have access to many of the arcane Prc's that really take wizard to it's heights, nor some of the meta-magic cheese[though it has it's own].

It's stupid strong, but as long as the player isn't just stupid stupid, it allows you insane amounts of flexibility in finally making the caster/manifester that you always wanted.
No spell book garbage, near perfect spell/power list, not having to deal with vancian casting, Quantum power slots, power points...


319 erudite + Convert spell to power is probably the most powerful combination, but that isn't the important part, the important part is it's the most flexible[tied with archivist, and artificer], and thus the most flavorful. IMO best class in the game, and by far my favorite. I have always advocated using it more like a sorcerer, and having spells that you select that you really focus on, but keeping maybe 2-3 slots for clutch manifesting.



I like this guy. You just said what I've been thinking all along, but much more articulately than I tried to above.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, Use the dragon version of erudite. It's better and ironically more balanced.


4 Unique powers per spell level. That's it. If you want more, you have to spend a feat.
Each spell level is blank until it's used. If you Manifest A,B,C,D that's it, but afterwards you can re-use whichever powers you have manifested.

So at level 20, you aren't running around with 11 9th level powers. You have 4 to set.
Maximum number of UPPD is 36, which is the same number of spells known as a psion. Psion is the psionic sorcerer, 319 Erudite is the wizard, and the complete psionic erudite is some product of unholy acts that produced it as wretched spawn.


Add Convert spell to power and yes, it is for all intended purposes a BETTER wizard. Like, A LOT better, BUT. It doesn't have access to many of the arcane Prc's that really take wizard to it's heights, nor some of the meta-magic cheese[though it has it's own].

It's stupid strong, but as long as the player isn't just stupid stupid, it allows you insane amounts of flexibility in finally making the caster/manifester that you always wanted.
No spell book garbage, near perfect spell/power list, not having to deal with vancian casting, Quantum power slots, power points...


319 erudite + Convert spell to power is probably the most powerful combination, but that isn't the important part, the important part is it's the most flexible[tied with archivist, and artificer], and thus the most flavorful. IMO best class in the game, and by far my favorite. I have always advocated using it more like a sorcerer, and having spells that you select that you really focus on, but keeping maybe 2-3 slots for clutch manifesting.
In other words, just straight up better than a regular Psion with no meaningful drawback? No thanks, I'll pass. What exactly is the point of a unique powers per day limitation if you have more unique powers per day than any other manifester?

[Nifft]

The niche I see for an Erudite is that it's a psionic powers person who's really good at crafting, but not as good at manifesting.

They want to make items because they're not as tactically flexible as a regular Psion would be -- just as a Wizard wants to make items, as compared to a Sorcerer who doesn't.

From a setting perspective, the Erudites (and monsters that manifest as Erudites) are where psionic items like power stones / dorjes / psicrowns come from, just as Wizards are the sources for most magical scrolls / wands / staves.


So, I'd like enough UPpD to be viable in play, but few enough that the player is rewarded for making gear.

I'd rather give the Erudite a modest Craft Reserve (an Item Creation feat or two) than expand their power selection much.

[Zombulian]

In other words, just straight up better than a regular Psion with no meaningful drawback? No thanks, I'll pass. What exactly is the point of a unique powers per day limitation if you have more unique powers per day than any other manifester?

This was starting to be my thought. I may mess with the Table + Int mod UPPD though.

[One Step Two]

This was starting to be my thought. I may mess with the Table + Int mod UPPD though.

Just to put in my two coppers, here's an idea I've had regarding the UPPD: Using the table similar to Dragon 319 (maybe 3 UPPD per level) but instead of Int mod, Charisma is used as a source for bonus powers per day. Intelligence is still used for their bonus PP, and their DC's but this breaks it away from the SAD issue, and if you're going to mod it a little, this might be a fun way of playing into how Psionics are force of mental powers, and letting Charisma, the stat that's supposed to govern Force of Personality factor into it as well.

[Zombulian]

Just to put in my two coppers, here's an idea I've had regarding the UPPD: Using the table similar to Dragon 319 (maybe 3 UPPD per level) but instead of Int mod, Charisma is used as a source for bonus powers per day. Intelligence is still used for their bonus PP, and their DC's but this breaks it away from the SAD issue, and if you're going to mod it a little, this might be a fun way of playing into how Psionics are force of mental powers, and letting Charisma, the stat that's supposed to govern Force of Personality factor into it as well.

While I agree that I like Charisma being the Force of Personality aspect of Psionics, I also don't see what that has to do with UPPD.
Relatedly, besides being a mechanical check to the Erudite's otherwise possibly incredibly power, I'm having trouble seeing how UPPD works fluff-wise. It's one thing to lose a fully formed spell granted to you by your deity through prayer, or to expend the magic juice that you had threaded into a spell earlier in the day from your book, but how do you progressively lose the ability to recall powers you know as you manifest them throughout the day? Do we chalk it up to mental fatigue?

[DMVerdandi]

In other words, just straight up better than a regular Psion with no meaningful drawback? No thanks, I'll pass. What exactly is the point of a unique powers per day limitation if you have more unique powers per day than any other manifester?

Yep. it's just better. What's wrong with something being better? The point of the limitation is so that it isn't essentially just using alter reality.

My point is that it is supremely flexible and makes it easier to execute certain concepts, without being locked to them necessarily. Surely it's abusable, but there are things that are abusable that are not the erudite, and furthermore, it can be used while having all of that flexibility and not be abused.
If I so wanted, I could just be a specialist in any one of the arcane schools/psionic disciplines and only buy spells/powers in that range.

And even still, I'd have a better chassis than anything else could provide. The hyper focus would definitely leave everyone else in the party with tons of roles that they could fill that I don't, but worst case scenario [Lets say this one is divination/clairaudience focused], I need to pull out a psychokinesis power. If I had previously learned it, I can. But If I had already used all of my UPPD for the level that it's in, I can't. And that adds a little drama.

Of course everyone has their preferences and such, but I find it to be the best class[319+STP]. If I want to emphasize a certain archetype of caster, I learn it's spells. If I want all the bard spells and nothing else I can do it. If I want to learn nothing but assassin spells and be an assassin, I can do it. If I want to focus solely on psionic powers in the psion/wilder list, it's fine.
Sure, I can be a cheese head, but I can also simply use the flexibility to tailor the list that best does what I want and need, and use them quite well.


Also, the "mime" job type is my favorite, so the ability to absorb the powers of others tickles my fancy pretty hard.

[Psyren]

Yep. it's just better. What's wrong with something being better?

There's nothing wrong with it, but you can probably see why taking an already T2 class and giving it a straight buff with no drawback might be off-putting to some. I and many others would prefer them to have different areas of focus rather than one being strictly better than the other at all levels; the "crafter vs. doer" divide Nifft described is both a mechanical and thematic fit.

[Crichton]

Yep. it's just better. What's wrong with something being better? The point of the limitation is so that it isn't essentially just using alter reality.

My point is that it is supremely flexible and makes it easier to execute certain concepts, without being locked to them necessarily. Surely it's abusable, but there are things that are abusable that are not the erudite, and furthermore, it can be used while having all of that flexibility and not be abused.
If I so wanted, I could just be a specialist in any one of the arcane schools/psionic disciplines and only buy spells/powers in that range.

And even still, I'd have a better chassis than anything else could provide. The hyper focus would definitely leave everyone else in the party with tons of roles that they could fill that I don't, but worst case scenario [Lets say this one is divination/clairaudience focused], I need to pull out a psychokinesis power. If I had previously learned it, I can. But If I had already used all of my UPPD for the level that it's in, I can't. And that adds a little drama.

Of course everyone has their preferences and such, but I find it to be the best class[319+STP]. If I want to emphasize a certain archetype of caster, I learn it's spells. If I want all the bard spells and nothing else I can do it. If I want to learn nothing but assassin spells and be an assassin, I can do it. If I want to focus solely on psionic powers in the psion/wilder list, it's fine.
Sure, I can be a cheese head, but I can also simply use the flexibility to tailor the list that best does what I want and need, and use them quite well.


Also, the "mime" job type is my favorite, so the ability to absorb the powers of others tickles my fancy pretty hard.


Agreed. I don't have a problem with expanding UPPD. Seems to me that if you don't, your DM is gonna get real annoyed at how often you manifest Metaconcert with your Psicrystal, or how the only unique power you manifest all day is actually Arcane Fusion, or some other such silly way to get around the low limit of UPPD.

Besides, while most people seem to think the RAI is 11 total UPPD at level 20, the RAW really is 99 UPPD at 20, starting from 1 at level 1, and a pitstop at 30 UPPD at level 10. Compared to that, I'd say using the Dragon 319 table of 1 at 1st, 16 at 10, and 36 at 20 isn't so bad after all. Similarly, allowing INT bonus extra UPPD allows a curve that feels more like other full progression casters. It's more of a houserule/homebrew than just using the Dragon version is, but it's a viable class.

As I mentioned before, I think the best option is the Dragon UPPD table, with the CPsi experience costs. At least then the player has to decide if this particular power is worth the expenditure, rather than just gobbling up every power or spell they come across.

[Psyren]

If you can convince your GM to go with the 99 reading then again I say, good for you. You should probably hope they don't read a few pages forward to the Epic Erudite entry though, because that spells out the devs intent pretty clearly:


Unique Powers: An epic erudite's number of unique powers per day continues to increase after 20th level, but at a reduced rate. At 25th level and every five levels thereafter, an erudite can manifest one additional unique power. Thus, a 25th-level erudite can manifest twelve unique powers per day, a 30th-level erudite can manifest thirteen unique powers per day, and so on.

The "of each level per day" wording that leads to the exploit is absent here, they just say "per day" - and since they say "continues to increase" then it's clear that 11 was the intended maximum for the erudite. I think your odds of achieving clemency and getting higher than 11 are better without trying for exploitative readings.

[Troacctid]

Yep. it's just better. What's wrong with something being better? The point of the limitation is so that it isn't essentially just using alter reality.

My point is that it is supremely flexible and makes it easier to execute certain concepts, without being locked to them necessarily. Surely it's abusable, but there are things that are abusable that are not the erudite, and furthermore, it can be used while having all of that flexibility and not be abused.
If I so wanted, I could just be a specialist in any one of the arcane schools/psionic disciplines and only buy spells/powers in that range.
Because there's a thing called game balance to consider, and having a clear Best Subclass spits in the face of that. Because the CP Erudite doesn't actually need that much help. And because Erudite has probably the most fiddly and annoying manifesting mechanic, so if you're going to encourage everyone to all play the same psionic class, Erudite is arguably the worst choice for that spot.

Instead of lifting one option above all the others to create an obvious first-order optimal class, the options should be balanced against each other so that players can viably choose between several classes to fit their concept.

[Crichton]

If you can convince your GM to go with the 99 reading then again I say, good for you. You should probably hope they don't read a few pages forward to the Epic Erudite entry though, because that spells out the devs intent pretty clearly:



The "of each level per day" wording that leads to the exploit is absent here, they just say "per day" - and since they say "continues to increase" then it's clear that 11 was the intended maximum for the erudite. I think your odds of achieving clemency and getting higher than 11 are better without trying for exploitative readings.

Oh I'd never advocate for allowing the 99 interpretation. It's too much, and it's clearly not the intent. I just feel like adding the INT bonus, or using the Dragon table makes the class more likely to be viable without finding cheesy ways around the limitation, especially at low level.

Psionic full casting classes already kinda get the short end of the stick at the beginning levels, at least as far as versatility/uses per day. At 1st level Sorcerers get 8 castings a day from any of their 8 known spells, Wizards get 4+INT bonus per day from an even bigger list. Psions get 3 powers and 2 power points, so 2 manifestings of those 3 powers, maybe 3 or 4 manifestings if their INT is high. And apparently, Erudites just get 1 unique at 1st level, from 2+INT known powers. They catch up in versatility eventually, but that's a rough start compared to magic users.

[Psyren]

Oh I'd never advocate for allowing the 99 interpretation. It's too much, and it's clearly not the intent. I just feel like adding the INT bonus, or using the Dragon table makes the class more likely to be viable without finding cheesy ways around the limitation, especially at low level.

What I'm saying is that trying to strongarm your DM by saying "well, this reading of the text says I should be getting a ridiculous number, so I'm actually being pretty generous" is more likely to just get the class banned entirely than getting what you want. Be honest, forthright, and above all humble with your ask, if an Erudite is what you want to play.



Psionic full casting classes already kinda get the short end of the stick at the beginning levels, at least as far as versatility/uses per day. At 1st level Sorcerers get 8 castings a day from any of their 8 known spells, Wizards get 4+INT bonus per day from an even bigger list. Psions get 3 powers and 2 power points, so 2 manifestings of those 3 powers, maybe 3 or 4 manifestings if their INT is high. And apparently, Erudites just get 1 unique at 1st level, from 2+INT known powers. They catch up in versatility eventually, but that's a rough start compared to magic users.

I think you're selling Psions pretty short. First off you really don't need 8 different spells known to get by. It's certainly nice, but 3 or even 2 different ones in a day can get you out of low levels just fine, especially when several of those powers scale up with you. Second, several of the benefits of psionics - like "magic" that is automatically silent and still, and the ability to easily heal and feed yourself - are much more likely to be relevant at lower levels than a lot of what the sorcerers are getting.

[Nifft]

Oh I'd never advocate for allowing the 99 interpretation. It's too much, and it's clearly not the intent. I just feel like adding the INT bonus, or using the Dragon table makes the class more likely to be viable without finding cheesy ways around the limitation, especially at low level.

Psionic full casting classes already kinda get the short end of the stick at the beginning levels, at least as far as versatility/uses per day. At 1st level Sorcerers get 8 castings a day from any of their 8 known spells, Wizards get 4+INT bonus per day from an even bigger list. Psions get 3 powers and 2 power points, so 2 manifestings of those 3 powers, maybe 3 or 4 manifestings if their INT is high. And apparently, Erudites just get 1 unique at 1st level, from 2+INT known powers. They catch up in versatility eventually, but that's a rough start compared to magic users.

First level generally sucks when compared to higher levels.

Wizards and Sorcerers have it worse than you're implying -- you're counting Cantrips as if they were equivalent to 1st level powers, but if you're playing the Psionics side intelligently they're not equivalent.

IMHO it's better to look at level 3 or level 5, which is when a Cleric/Druid/Wizard would get level 3 spells, when you've got enough WBL to craft a few items, and when the Psion starts to show off what a nova-centric advantage might look like.

[Crichton]

What I'm saying is that trying to strongarm your DM by saying "well, this reading of the text says I should be getting a ridiculous number, so I'm actually being pretty generous" is more likely to just get the class banned entirely than getting what you want. Be honest, forthright, and above all humble with your ask, if an Erudite is what you want to play.



I think you're selling Psions pretty short. First off you really don't need 8 different spells known to get by. It's certainly nice, but 3 or even 2 different ones in a day can get you out of low levels just fine, especially when several of those powers scale up with you. Second, several of the benefits of psionics - like "magic" that is automatically silent and still, and the ability to easily heal and feed yourself - are much more likely to be relevant at lower levels than a lot of what the sorcerers are getting.



Those are both fair points, and I appreciate them, and your voice of experience. Thank you for addressing them clearly and articulately. It's good advice, and I'll endeavor to take it to heart.

What advice would you give a player of a level 1 Erudite, under the 11 UPPD interpretation? What would your most common 1 power per day be at level 1? (I assume it's situational, but making that decision without knowing what else is coming that day is quite intimidating). It's no fun to spend the rest of the adventuring day sitting on ones hands or staying clear of danger because the one power used that day is no longer useful, even if it was necessary at the time.

What are ways to 'stretch' your versatility under such restrictions? Preferably ones that aren't too cheesy.

[Crichton]

Wizards and Sorcerers have it worse than you're implying -- you're counting Cantrips as if they were equivalent to 1st level powers, but if you're playing the Psionics side intelligently they're not equivalent.

That's fair, cantrips aren't equivalent.



IMHO it's better to look at level 3 or level 5, which is when a Cleric/Druid/Wizard would get level 3 spells, when you've got enough WBL to craft a few items, and when the Psion starts to show off what a nova-centric advantage might look like.

That is a better comparison, to be sure, but that 3 to 5 level Erudite has to survive those levels of only getting to use 1 or 2 powers per day. And the player has to enjoy them enough to persevere through them without getting spell-per-day envy. Got any advice?

[Troacctid]

Those are both fair points, and I appreciate them, and your voice of experience. Thank you for addressing them clearly and articulately. It's good advice, and I'll endeavor to take it to heart.

What advice would you give a player of a level 1 Erudite, under the 11 UPPD interpretation? What would your most common 1 power per day be at level 1? (I assume it's situational, but making that decision without knowing what else is coming that day is quite intimidating). It's no fun to spend the rest of the adventuring day sitting on ones hands or staying clear of danger because the one power used that day is no longer useful, even if it was necessary at the time.

What are ways to 'stretch' your versatility under such restrictions? Preferably ones that aren't too cheesy.
My inclination would be entangling ectoplasm or disable for crowd control, or matter agitation as a source of damage over time.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What advice would you give a player of a level 1 Erudite, under the 11 UPPD interpretation?Try to take the Extra Unique Power feat at 1st level and buy as many 1st level power stones as you can. Use the rules in CPsi for manifesting from a power stone using your own pp (and manifester level) once you've got a couple of extra levels under your belt, so you can utilize powers like inertial armor that have long durations without using up your UPPDs. Start crafting as soon as it's feasible, and consider taking Ancestral Relic for a psionic version of a runestaff using the convert-magic-item-to-psionic-item rules in the MIC.


What would your most common 1 power per day be at level 1? (I assume it's situational, but making that decision without knowing what else is coming that day is quite intimidating). It's no fun to spend the rest of the adventuring day sitting on ones hands or staying clear of danger because the one power used that day is no longer useful, even if it was necessary at the time.Powers with long durations, such as entangling ectoplasm and matter agitation, and numerous uses; astral construct totally works for that last one, except its duration is awful. Consider taking the Durable Construct feat (Hyperconscious) ASAP, so your constructs last for 10 minutes (or 20, Extended).


What are ways to 'stretch' your versatility under such restrictions? Preferably ones that aren't too cheesy.See above.

[Troacctid]

Powers with long durations, such as entangling ectoplasm and matter agitation, and numerous uses; astral construct totally works for that last one, except its duration is awful. Consider taking the Durable Construct feat (Hyperconscious) ASAP, so your constructs last for 10 minutes (or 20, Extended).
I like astral construct too, but it is a discipline power, so normally you'd have to be level 3 to learn it, unless you're using the Discipline Focus ACF, AKA the most boring one. :smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like astral construct too, but it is a discipline power, so normally you'd have to be level 3 to learn it, unless you're using the Discipline Focus ACF, AKA the most boring one. :smalltongue:There're Hidden Talent and the mantled erudite ACF, which are two ways to get it at level 1. It's best to take it at level 3 or after, anyway, in which case you could totally take the Durable Construct feat, assuming Hyperconscious is on the table (which it should be).

[Psyren]

Another often-overlooked low-level power is Control Flames, though that one works much better with Wilders. You can do a surprising amount of damage with very little PP spent, and deal with swarms very early on too. Vaarsuvius Axiom applies outside of combat as well.


I like astral construct too, but it is a discipline power, so normally you'd have to be level 3 to learn it, unless you're using the Discipline Focus ACF, AKA the most boring one. :smalltongue:

Hidden Talent lets you pick it up at level 1 also.

[Crichton]

These are all fantastic inputs. Thank you all! Let's take a more applied look, if you're willing. I could use the help

Assuming a game where all WotC sources are available, no flaws, and rolled stats of 6 16 11 18 10 5. How do you set up your Erudite's first level, second level, and maybe third?

[Troacctid]

It's going to be rough, since you're rolling with a d4 hit die and tightly limited resources in a very low-level game. I'd invest in a feat to increase survivability, like Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces), or pick up a meatshield with Wild Cohort. Most likely I'd choose a psionic race like Elan, Synad, Talaire, or Kalashtar for some bonus PP. Take powers that make sense to cast multiple times in a day, like the ones I mentioned before. And consider multiclassing to improve low-level capabilities—for example, a level of Incarnate would represent a substantial boost in offensive and defensive power, and even transition cleanly into Soul Manifester later. Warblade or Crusader are usually nice too, although not a good fit for that stat array.

[Nifft]

These are all fantastic inputs. Thank you all! Let's take a more applied look, if you're willing. I could use the help

Assuming a game where all WotC sources are available, no flaws, and rolled stats of 6 16 11 18 10 5. How do you set up your Erudite's first level, second level, and maybe third?

Who else is in your party?

What kind of game is the DM pitching? (Setting / starting location / intro scenario / etc.)

Do you know this DM? Are you going to be thrown into life-and-death combat with high-level foes instantly at level 1, or will you basically level up in some kind of intro session which gets you past the awful level swiftly? Will you have downtime to craft items? Can you expect to buy magic gear when you get some loot?

[Kelb_Panthera]

First, this is one of the best things to ever happen to 3e psionics, IMO, and especially to erudites; http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a Permanent, rechargeable tattoos are a great way around the UPPD for long duration, everyday buffs and spammables. Some of it was negated by the 3.0 - 3.5 changeover but most of the article is just aces.

Second, the UPPD mechanic is far less of a barrier than its given credit for. Unlike a cleric, you don't have to select all of your powers at the beginning of the day and, unlike a wizard, you don't have to take 15 minutes in the middle of the adventure to pick them as you go. When a situation arises, you pick from your entire list, on the spot, and immediately use the power you like until you've run out of unique powers for the day. If you use broadly applicable powers for the first five levels they're not -too- rough and from 6 forward you can start picking silver bullets for encounters while using items for less pressing situations. This is a powerful mechanic with the psionic powers lists but it becomes just plain busted when you add the StP variant.

[Crichton]

Who else is in your party?

What kind of game is the DM pitching? (Setting / starting location / intro scenario / etc.)

Do you know this DM? Are you going to be thrown into life-and-death combat with high-level foes instantly at level 1, or will you basically level up in some kind of intro session which gets you past the awful level swiftly? Will you have downtime to craft items? Can you expect to buy magic gear when you get some loot?

Rest of party is Cleric, Fighter, Rogue. The DM is new to me, so I don't know entirely what to expect yet. It's an Eberron setting, but I don't know what kind or encounters to expect yet. I'm trying not to overload them with too many questions too fast, but those are some of the ones I'm working on getting answers to.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Another often-overlooked low-level power is Control Flames, though that one works much better with Wilders. You can do a surprising amount of damage with very little PP spent, and deal with swarms very early on too. Vaarsuvius Axiom applies outside of combat as well.How does control flames interact with the On Fire feat?

ON FIRE [PSIONIC]
When you do something particularly amazing, your confidence manifests itself as bright flames.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, Psionic Body.

Benefit: While in situations where taking 10 on skill checks is impossible, if you make a successful attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, and the result of that roll is at least equal to your character level +20, your surge in confidence causes you to burst into psionic flames. These flames do not harm you or anything you hold, shed light as a torch, and last for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum 1). While On Fire, you gain a +1 morale bonus, +1 per 5 character levels, to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. You also deal 1 point of fire damage, +1 per 5 character levels, to enemies who strike you with a natural or unarmed attack and to enemies whom you strike with a natural or unarmed attack. Finally, your spells or powers gain a +1 bonus to their save DC, if any. You may choose to not benefit from this feat even if you fulfill the conditions required.

Additionally, you may artificially elate yourself enough to start fires by expending your psionic focus as a move action. Doing so causes your hand to ignite as a torch for one round, during which time you may use it to light any nonmagical, unattended, flammable objects on fire if you succeed on a touch attack. These flames do not injure you or anything you carry either, unless you want them to.

Special: Particularly spectacular or cinematic actions in difficult situations, as determined by the GM, may also activate this feat, even if the normal activation condition isn’t met. As a general guideline, if it’s especially awesome, and it’s successful, it’s worth going On Fire.


These are all fantastic inputs. Thank you all! Let's take a more applied look, if you're willing. I could use the help

Assuming a game where all WotC sources are available, no flaws, and rolled stats of 6 16 11 18 10 5. How do you set up your Erudite's first level, second level, and maybe third?Well, with no more info than that, I'd suggest something with good survivability in the early game, such as warforged for the built-in armor, +Con, and the immunities. Buy some cheap armor and a shield with no ACP, a trained guard animal (such as a riding dog or a mule) set to interpose itself between you and attack, and buy a bunch of 1st level power stones for various powers that will come in handy for utility, offensive, and defensive purposes, even if they're powers already in your powers known repertoire. Focus on the ones that grant the best bang for your buck (such as control sound, control flames, matter agitation, inertial armor/force screen (for incorporeal opponents), and so on). Put your best scores in Int, Con, and Dex (in that order), with Wis fourth, and the rest not really mattering nearly as much. The 6 should probably go into Str, as odd/even scores matter more for that than elsewhere. The Cha penalty is going to hurt, but less so than having low scores in the others.

If someone in the party has Handle Animal, ask him and/or her to command your pets to guard you, and maybe give said party member a bit of extra treasure on the side for the trouble.

Are flaws allowed? I'd suggest Share Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces) and S.S. (Dissolving Spittle), with the latter being to free up some UPPD for damaging powers, only to be traded out later, when it becomes obsolete. If you can take the Extra Unique Power feat, from Dragon 319, do it, as UPPD are invaluable.

I'd suggest that you toss a couple of levels in totemist at some point, leading into soul manifester, for some utility without eating up your UPPD, except you need to keep your erudite level as high as you reasonably can get it. Maybe grab some bonus feats for Extra Unique Power to boost your UPPD number some. It's kind of like Font of Inspiration, really.

Anyway, that's my suggestion.

[Psyren]

Rest of party is Cleric, Fighter, Rogue. The DM is new to me, so I don't know entirely what to expect yet. It's an Eberron setting, but I don't know what kind or encounters to expect yet. I'm trying not to overload them with too many questions too fast, but those are some of the ones I'm working on getting answers to.

That's plenty of muscle to get you through a combat encounter safely. I'd probably pick Entangling Ectoplasm and Attraction as my starting powers, then for the bonus ones from high Int I'd pick other utility stuff like Detect Psionics and Vigor. Use Attraction to deal with social stuff in town and EE if you go somewhere that a fight might break out, as a way of controlling enemies so your meatshields don't get overwhelmed (and also so nothing gets past them to stick the pointy end in you.) Just keep in mind that if your DM is really going to try to kill you at that first level or spend a long time there, and you can't get the Erudite houseruled in some way, that you'll probably want to be a psion instead.


How does control flames interact with the On Fire feat?

Is that third-party?

The fire from that feat counts as magical since it comes from a psionic feat, so the answer is that they don't interact. The way you'd typically get fire for that power is from your torch.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is that third-party?It's from Dreamscarred Press.


The fire from that feat counts as magical since it comes from a psionic feat, so the answer is that they don't interact. The way you'd typically get fire for that power is from your torch.Hadn't thought of it like that. Good point.

[Nifft]

Rest of party is Cleric, Fighter, Rogue. The DM is new to me, so I don't know entirely what to expect yet. It's an Eberron setting, but I don't know what kind or encounters to expect yet. I'm trying not to overload them with too many questions too fast, but those are some of the ones I'm working on getting answers to. Ooo, Eberron is cool.

There are three obvious setting-specific choices for a psion-type:
- Kalashtar
- Changeling
- Warforged

All 3 can be great.

From the SRD, there are also some great choices:
- Elan
- Human

With the Cleric + Fighter, you might have blockers. So you can probably safely stay ranged.

With the Rogue, you've got a scout and a general problem-solver. So you don't need to dedicate too much effort towards solving problems like locked doors, at least not immediately.


These are all fantastic inputs. Thank you all! Let's take a more applied look, if you're willing. I could use the help

Assuming a game where all WotC sources are available, no flaws, and rolled stats of 6 16 11 18 10 5. How do you set up your Erudite's first level, second level, and maybe third? Powers from the list here: http://www.psionics.info/lists/psion-wilder/

Warforged
Stats: Str 5, Dex 11, Con 18 (16 +2 race), Int 18, Wis 8 (10 -2 race), Cha 4 (6 -2 race)
* Fixed Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic]
* L1 Feat: Adamantine Body [Warforged] <-- this is okay even without Heavy Armor proficiency because the feat doesn't impose an armor check penalty, so your attacks are not penalized even though your skills are.
* Erudite 1 Bonus Feat: Imprint Stone

Kalashtar
Stats: Str 5, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 6
* Fixed Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic]
* L1 Feat: Hidden Talent (Astral Construct) <-- investment for the future
* Erudite 1 Bonus Feat: Imprint Stone

Elan
Stats: Str 5, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 6, Cha 8 (base 10 -2 race)
* Fixed Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic]
* L1 Feat: Elan Resilience [Racial, Psionic] <-- you can spend an immediate action and any number of pp to reduce damage by -4 per pp, this is like having another power known and +1 UPpD
* Erudite 1 Bonus Feat: Imprint Stone [Item Creation]

Human
Stats: Str 5, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 6
* Fixed Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic]
* L1 Feat: Aberrant Dragonmark (Shield) [Aberrant] <-- you are tainted by Khyber, and cursed with awesome
* Human Bonus Feat: Warped Mind [Aberrant]
* Erudite 1 Bonus Feat: Imprint Stone [Item Creation]

Human
Stats: Str 5, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 6
* Fixed Bonus Feat: Psicrystal Affinity [Psionic]
* L1 Feat: Overchannel [Psionic]
* Human Bonus Feat: Talented [Psionic]
* Erudite 1 Bonus Feat: Imprint Stone [Item Creation]


These low-level skills & powers could apply to any of the races above, with modifications as noted.

+ Skills (2 + 4 Int) x4: Concentration 4, Psicraft 4, Knowledge (any four) 4 each
- Powers Known (2 + 4 Int): Attraction, Call Item, Call to Mind, Matter Agitation, Entangling Ectoplasm, Telempathic Projection

When you have a day of downtime, make a Power Stone with as many copies of Entangling Ectoplasm, Call Item, and Call to Mind as you can. They're all amazing utility powers even at manifester level 1.

For your 1 unique power per day, the power you pick will depend on the day. I'm assuming one of your compatriots has some social skills -- probably the Rogue, but possibly the Cleric. This character is the Face.
- Social Adventure: either Telempathic Projection (to assist the face) or Attraction (to assist the face by making people attracted to him or her)
- Sneaking Around: Attraction (to make guards attracted to something away from their posts)
- Investigation: Call to Mind (to ensure you make your Knowledge checks)
- Combat: Matter Agitation (best damage-to-pp value over time) or Entangling Ectoplasm (if you're expecting enemies who are dangerous because of their mobility, or who will be trying to escape)

Call Item might be worth spending points on, but in general it's fine to use it form the power stone for the next few levels. The 10 minute duration you'll get from a power stone is [I]generally enough. One neat trick is that you can (D)ismiss the power early, so if you Call a grappling hook and use it to descend, you can get the rope unstuck afterwards by just evaporating the grappling hook. Also fun to (D)ismiss a rope or ladder which is being used by an enemy who is chasing you.

At some point I hope you'll have a day or two to imprint a power stone, which will take 1 day per 1kgp. You can stuff up to 40 level 1 / ML 1 powers into a 1kgp power stone -- and you should do exactly that, as soon as you have 500 gp, 40 xp, and a spare day. Split up these 40 power slots into Entangling Ectoplasm, Call Item, and Call to Mind. Keep this power stone available at all times. Don't use those powers yourself until the stone is empty.

If you have two days and a thousand gp, make two stones: one of them Entangling Ectoplasm x20 / Matter Agitation x20, the other one holding Call Item x20 / Call to Mind x20. One is for combat, the other is for utility.

No matter what powers you pick and what prep you do, most of your damage at level 1 might come from crossbow attacks. This is normal. Don't feel bad.



Level 2: Erudite 2
- Powers Known (2): (Inertial Armor or Synchronicity), Vigor

Both Vigor and Synchronicity are not worth spending points on yet. In the near future, both of them very much will be.

If you're a squishy person (i.e. not the Warforged), then you might want to pick up Inertial Armor instead of Synchronicity. You can put Inertial Armor in a power stone, too -- at ML 1 / 1 pp, it's 25 gp base price per hour of use, so you can stuff 40 hours into a power stone for 1k gp and use them non-consecutively as you adventure.



Level 3: Erudite 3 - big choices

* L3 Feat:
Are you that human with an Aberrant Dragonmark? You might want Starspawn [Aberrant] <-- you can fly!
Are you the Warforged? You might want Improved Damage Reduction [Warforged] for DR 3/adamantine. It's solid but not outstanding.
Are you tired of paying 12.5 gp per charge for your power stones? You might want Craft Dorje [Item Creation], which gives you Psionic Wands that cost half the price of Power Stones. Very nice when used immediately for your new level 2 powers.
Are you sick of being [i]charm person'd into a liability due to your low Wisdom? Shape Soulmeld (planar ward) is pretty spiffy. Or take two levels of Incarnate, then go into Soul Manifester.



- Powers Known (2), good choices include:
Amethyst Burst - ignores SR, ignores AMF, poor damage scaling but good all-day utility for a low cost. Tolerable in a dorje, but the Reflex half will eventually hurt a lot, so you want to use it frequently enough that it doesn't last long.
Energy Stun - poor un-agumented damage but great scaling, very flexible damage type so you can target an enemy's vulnerability, and Stun is a great debuff. You want to manifest this directly because the saving throw DCs are important.
Psychic Whip - good duration means you can contribute all combat for a low cost, and the 1 round Stun debuff is amazing when you realize that Stunned enemies drop their weapons.
Share Pain - You have a Psicrystal, and you have Vigor. What you do is Share Pain so your Psicrystal takes half your damage, and then manifest & share a Vigor effect with your Psicrystal. You just doubled the value of the temp HP provided by Vigor. The duration is 1 hour/level so you can happily put this in a stone or a dorje. This power is amazing for durability, and it's why you took Vigor at level 2.


Which two should you take? Depends how effectively you've been able to use your Power Stones over the previous two levels. If you have been able to remember to use them in combat, then take Share Pain.

Are fights very short? Then Energy Stun may be your best value.

Are fights long and mobile, or maybe you face waves of opponents? Psychic Whip might be top choice.

Are you expecting anti-magic fields or high-SR opponents, or alternately a lot of weak opponents? Amethyst Burst will shine in those scenarios.


Additionally, level 3 is where you get the ability to snatch Discipline powers. You'll have to either buy a Power Stone of the appropriate power, or find a willing donor who will let you copy the power out of his or her brain.

Priorities for power piracy (er, for copying):
- Psi Charm
- Psi Minor Creation
- Astral Construct


That ought to take you through level 3.

Good luck, and let us know how you're doing in the game.

[Crichton]

What a wonderful bunch of useful advice! Thank you all! I'll pore over it in great detail tomorrow morning.

So, Nifft, just glancing over your builds, you don't recommend trading off my Erudite bonus feat to take StP?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you choose to go warforged, you'll be a prime candidate for the dragonborn template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b). You'll lose your slam attack and your body armor (which usually costs a feat to get rid of), but the potential bennies are many and splendored.


What a wonderful bunch of useful advice! Thank you all! I'll pore over it in great detail tomorrow morning.

So, Nifft, just glancing over your builds, you don't recommend trading off my Erudite bonus feat to take StP?Don't forget that you gain TWO bonus feats as a 1st level erudite.

[Nifft]

What a wonderful bunch of useful advice! Thank you all! I'll pore over it in great detail tomorrow morning.

So, Nifft, just glancing over your builds, you don't recommend trading off my Erudite bonus feat to take StP?

StP is more powerful but it will take a lot of time & effort to realize that power. Power Stones help right now, at level 1, and will continue helping basically forever. They help alleviate your #1 resource problem (limited UPpD).

Also, your DM may not like you taking that option -- it's not as bad as it's usually advertised, but it's still REALLY REALLY bad in terms of balance, especially relative to your party which has a Rogue and a Fighter for Xoriat's sake.

Your party is low-power.


You want to make some items for the Rogue to UMD -- actually that's a nice thing for you to do to boost your party in general, by giving the Rogue a couple of hefty Power Stones, or a few Dorjes once those come online.

Giving the Rogue a Dorje of Energy Ray (level 1) would be pretty effective -- the Rogue's Sneak Attack dice will make up for the low power point investment, and the flexible damage type + touch attack will give the Rogue some nice advantages.

The optimal party-wide move (rather than PC-specific move) might be to buff the party with your level 3 feat by taking Craft Universal Item and scouring MIC for cheap stuff you can make. Strengthening your friends makes you a force-multiplier, and if the whole party is throwing around stronger actions, that's usually a lot better than just your own action being stronger.


So, yeah, you're in a low-power party with a DM you don't know that well, in an adventure you don't know at all. That's not a time when I would push for weird extra-powerful option on top of the weird extra-powerful class variant. Additionally, the option has a significant cost (no bonus feat => no Adamantine Body + Imprint Stone), and won't give you any benefits for at least 2 levels. Seems like a bad gamble.

[DMVerdandi]

Because there's a thing called game balance to consider, and having a clear Best Subclass spits in the face of that. Because the CP Erudite doesn't actually need that much help. And because Erudite has probably the most fiddly and annoying manifesting mechanic, so if you're going to encourage everyone to all play the same psionic class, Erudite is arguably the worst choice for that spot.

Instead of lifting one option above all the others to create an obvious first-order optimal class, the options should be balanced against each other so that players can viably choose between several classes to fit their concept.

Game balance in 3.5? where?
Is the druid balanced against...Well, anything?
In fact, in many ways, a core druid is STILL going to be very much ahead of pretty much anything that is thrown at it, and by quite the margin.
Not only do you get one of the best casting lists in the game, but you get a whole other character for free, and the ability to start changing into animals, and not just a dog or a cat, when even middling levels, titanic beasts. Oh, and you can still cast spells in these forms.
And then there is the superior chassis it gets, as well as wild shaping feats, meta magic feats, and the insane amount of wisdom support there is out there.


And all for the trade off of...Not wearing metal armor.
Come now. The illusion of balance has been thrown off ages ago.
The real intent is this, Everyone sees the players handbook as the cornerstone of balance, so if anyone comes along with a mechanic that is better, there is a vocal rebuke of the idea. The thing about that is, as we all know, the players handbook is the least balanced book of all, lest we try to say that the casters and non-casters are on the same playing field, or even that the majority of classes outside of the core are better.

We can count on our hand the classes that have mechanics that are in one way or another even coming close to the cleric, druid, and wizard without much modification. Artificer, Sha'ir, Spirit Shaman, and Archivist. And each one of them has something odd about it that kind of makes them at their best, a little worse.


Yes, using the Original Erudite with the Convert spell to power ACF does put it at the precipice as far as ease of use and flexibility goes [Not hard fast power, since it gets the same amount of PP as a psion does], but that is it's reason for actually being considered better.


The complete psionic Erudite kind of breaks Grod's law in a circular way. Having such low Unique powers per day just makes people want to circumvent it or not play it at all, since they see the potential flexibility, but it cannot manifest without heavy optimization. Using the original makes people desire to do it LESS, and break the class LESS, because it is [Not broken anymore]. The difference is in ease of use. Erudite as per Cpsi is not used that much, even in games where psionics are allowed because of the amount of meta you need to make it truly effective and worth playing.


Think about the wilder and just how little that it used. It's just not worth playing over a psion, so people don't. Now, is that to say that people would play the erudite more than the psion? Yes. But why is that exactly problematic? Many play the Wizard over the sorcerer, and for the most part, Most with game experience do. Does that mean wizard shouldn't exist because it is stealing the shine away from the sorcerer? Or cleric shouldn't because favored soul is passed up so often instead?
No.



Again, The original Erudite does have superior flexibility, but not necessarily power.
You can effectively get the same sort of flexibility out of a spell point wizard with eidetic spellcaster feat.
Neither is really more powerful, but the erudite just has for the most part permanent still/silent, except for spell like powers, which still need verbal and somatic components.

[Troacctid]

You're proposing the psionic equivalent of buffing the druid.

[DMVerdandi]

You're proposing the psionic equivalent of buffing the druid.
More like buffing the sorcerer.

Wilder is not the sorcerer of psionics, it's really more like... The warlock if anything.
Then Psion = Sorcerer
Thus 319 Erudite[Without CSTP] = Wizard.

Erudite with CSTP=Easy bake Spell Point Wizard /Psion/Cerebremancer.

[Psyren]

Buffing the Erudite is fine, and this thread has several suggestions to do that.

Making it strictly better than a Psion however is unnecessary, and (I would argue) unpalatable to many.

[DMVerdandi]

Buffing the Erudite is fine, and this thread has several suggestions to do that.

Making it strictly better than a Psion however is unnecessary, and (I would argue) unpalatable to many.

And what reason is that? And in what way is it reasonable?

Having a class stronger than a psion being unpalatable is pretty silly, since there are already classes that exist that are stronger than psions.
Nothing should be so sacred that you cannot create competition, and really much of the dislike is very similar to the dislike that tome of battle got, 4e got, and ironically, psionics itself got.
It's an allegiance to sacred cows. I say, slaughter them if something more fun comes out of it.

[Psyren]

And what reason is that? And in what way is it reasonable?

Having a class stronger than a psion being unpalatable is pretty silly, since there are already classes that exist that are stronger than psions.
Nothing should be so sacred that you cannot create competition, and really much of the dislike is very similar to the dislike that tome of battle got, 4e got, and ironically, psionics itself got.
It's an allegiance to sacred cows. I say, slaughter them if something more fun comes out of it.

I'm well aware that stronger classes than Psion already exist. I'm saying we don't need more of them.

But if you want to do that, go for it, the fun police aren't going to show up and batter down your door (and neither am I).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm well aware that stronger classes than Psion already exist. I'm saying we don't need more of them.

But if you want to do that, go for it, the fun police aren't going to show up and batter down your door (and neither am I).Come on, now. We know you're with the Thought Police. I mean, just look at your name.

[Psyren]

Come on, now. We know you're with the Thought Police. I mean, just look at your name.

I don't know what you mean. Return to your fun, citizen.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't know what you mean. Return to your fun, citizen.Yes sir, Your Honor.

[Crichton]

Good luck, and let us know how you're doing in the game.


Things are going great, and your advice has been really helpful. Just hitting level 3, and things are good!



Level 3: Erudite 3 - big choices

* L3 Feat:

Are you tired of paying 12.5 gp per charge for your power stones? You might want Craft Dorje [Item Creation], which gives you Psionic Wands that cost half the price of Power Stones. Very nice when used immediately for your new level 2 powers.


Help me out here, how are you getting Craft Dorje at level 3, when the prerequisite is Manifester Level 5? I was super excited for it, but I can't see how I can get it before Level 5.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Help me out here, how are you getting Craft Dorje at level 3, when the prerequisite is Manifester Level 5? I was super excited for it, but I can't see how I can get it before Level 5.You normally can't get Craft Dorje until later. How about Ancestral Relic? Give yourself something you can add dorje charges to by sacrificing stuff to it. Since the relic in question allows you to always have a certain amount of gp value in the item, when you use up charges the value decreases. So if you sacrifice stuff to it, you can refill the charges you previously used. Note that buildings and other terrain features in settled areas are stupidly expensive, and enemy territory is a great place to sacrifice things like gods' temples and stuff. Just make sure to take out everyone inside, first, so they aren't alive to pester you while you desecrate their altars and other (un)holy sites.

[Crichton]

You normally can't get Craft Dorje until later. How about Ancestral Relic? Give yourself something you can add dorje charges to by sacrificing stuff to it. Since the relic in question allows you to always have a certain amount of gp value in the item, when you use up charges the value decreases. So if you sacrifice stuff to it, you can refill the charges you previously used. Note that buildings and other terrain features in settled areas are stupidly expensive, and enemy territory is a great place to sacrifice things like gods' temples and stuff. Just make sure to take out everyone inside, first, so they aren't alive to pester you while you desecrate their altars and other (un)holy sites.

Ancestral Relic is fun and powerful. I was just hoping Nifft (or the playground community at large) knew something I didn't about Manifester level boosting and Craft Dorje

[Nifft]

Ancestral Relic is fun and powerful. I was just hoping Nifft (or the playground community at large) knew something I didn't about Manifester level boosting and Craft Dorje

Nope, sorry. Just a simple mistake on my part.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftDorje <-- The feat right above Craft Dorje does say Manifester Level 3, maybe that was it? Or that Craft Wand is level 3? Not sure exactly how I got that wrong.

[Crichton]

Nope, sorry. Just a simple mistake on my part.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftDorje <-- The feat right above Craft Dorje does say Manifester Level 3, maybe that was it? Or that Craft Wand is level 3? Not sure exactly how I got that wrong.


No worries. I was just hoping you had some fancy method to boost ML that I hadn't found. I can wait on Craft Dorje until my level 5 bonus feat. Any advice on what to take now at level 3?




As for the build, I ended up going with a Synad (for the bonus pp and racial abilities). Took some flaws so I ended up with Imprint Stone, Overchannel, and Talented. I've made a bunch of stones for my Inertial Armor and Vigor, as well as some of my general utility powers, so I can use my 2 UPPD for utility and combat. I find myself using Mind Thrust or Crystal Shard a lot in combat, depending on enemy type. I'm trailing a couple hundred xp behind the party since I keep using xp to learn powers, but that's not a problem. I'll be caught up to them at level 3 in a couple encounters.

[Cosi]

Is the druid balanced against...Well, anything?

The Cleric. And the Wizard. And the Sorcerer. And the Erudite. And the Beguiler. And the Archivist. And the Wilder. And the Spirit Shaman. And the Artificer. And the Dread Necromancer. And the Psion. And the Favored Soul. And the Wu Jen. Probably some builds that use PrCs with native casting (i.e. Chameleon dumpster diving is viable from 6th to 15th). In combat it's balanced (arguably, and not at high-OP) with some non-caster builds that use ToB or bonus damage dice + TWF (and the Bardblade, which does both).


In fact, in many ways, a core druid is STILL going to be very much ahead of pretty much anything that is thrown at it, and by quite the margin.

No, this is a myth that gets thrown around because people don't realize how many entirely viable casting classes there are and confuse "Fighters aren't viable" with "nothing is viable". Not counting any build choice other than class, you can build at least four different parties of a Druid and three other characters that can viably contribute alongside a Druid. If you do count those choices and/or provide buffs to some classes, that number absolutely explodes.


Come now. The illusion of balance has been thrown off ages ago.

The illusion of global balance has been. That doesn't mean there aren't balance points. It also doesn't mean that nothing is broken. RAW wish as a SLA produces a character as powerful as you are able to ask for. Obviously that's broken, even if we accept that balance isn't otherwise meaningful.


The real intent is this, Everyone sees the players handbook as the cornerstone of balance, so if anyone comes along with a mechanic that is better, there is a vocal rebuke of the idea. The thing about that is, as we all know, the players handbook is the least balanced book of all, lest we try to say that the casters and non-casters are on the same playing field, or even that the majority of classes outside of the core are better.

Depends what you mean by balance. Four classes in the PHB (Druid, Wizard, Cleric, and Sorcerer) can be viably played in a party with a Druid. Zero classes in Complete Warrior can. Absent a decision about balance points, how can we coherently argue about what is balanced?

[Nifft]

No worries. I was just hoping you had some fancy method to boost ML that I hadn't found. I can wait on Craft Dorje until my level 5 bonus feat. Any advice on what to take now at level 3?

Craft Universal Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftUniversalItem) <-- Universal Items are the Wondrous Items of the Psi world, and that means it's a grab-bag of awesome stuff for you & your whole party. If you've got access to Magic Item Compendium, you've got a lot of choices for gear to craft, and item crafting plays into your wide power repertoire.

Psionic Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicBody) <-- you have 3 [Psionic] feats (including Psicrystal Affinity), this makes a 4th feat and thus you'd gain +8 HP. You'll get more HP for feats like Metamorphic Transfer and Boost Construct, both of which are excellent future investments.

Psionic Shot might be good if you're using Crystal Shard often, but you'd need Point Blank Shot first, and if you went that route you might want Psionic Meditation as your 5th level Feat.



As for the build, I ended up going with a Synad (for the bonus pp and racial abilities). Took some flaws so I ended up with Imprint Stone, Overchannel, and Talented. I've made a bunch of stones for my Inertial Armor and Vigor, as well as some of my general utility powers, so I can use my 2 UPPD for utility and combat. I find myself using Mind Thrust or Crystal Shard a lot in combat, depending on enemy type. I'm trailing a couple hundred xp behind the party since I keep using xp to learn powers, but that's not a problem. I'll be caught up to them at level 3 in a couple encounters. 3.5e is nice in that XP comes faster when you're behind.

If you take Craft Universal Item, you should ask your allies to share their XP when you craft stuff for them to use. That'll help bring the party up while not pushing you down so specifically.

[daremetoidareyo]

Craft Universal Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftUniversalItem) <-- Universal Items are the Wondrous Items of the Psi world, and that means it's a grab-bag of awesome stuff for you & your whole party. If you've got access to Magic Item Compendium, you've got a lot of choices for gear to craft, and item crafting plays into your wide power repertoire.

Psionic Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicBody) <-- you have 3 [Psionic] feats (including Psicrystal Affinity), this makes a 4th feat and thus you'd gain +8 HP. You'll get more HP for feats like Metamorphic Transfer and Boost Construct, both of which are excellent future investments.

Psionic Shot might be good if you're using Crystal Shard often, but you'd need Point Blank Shot first, and if you went that route you might want Psionic Meditation as your 5th level Feat.


3.5e is nice in that XP comes faster when you're behind.

If you take Craft Universal Item, you should ask your allies to share their XP when you craft stuff for them to use. That'll help bring the party up while not pushing you down so specifically.

Player's handbook 2 web extension has rules for other players contributing xp to items that you craft for them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No worries. I was just hoping you had some fancy method to boost ML that I hadn't found. I can wait on Craft Dorje until my level 5 bonus feat. Any advice on what to take now at level 3?
My advice would be Boost Construct (and buying a power stone for Astral Construct if you don't have it already). It's a very versatile power, so it's good to have when your UPPD are so limited.

Alternatively Psicrystal Containment is worth considering. Having two psionic foci to expend in combat works quite well with Talented and will increase in value when you pick up metapsionic feats.
You'll probably want to pick up at least Quicken Power sooner or later, and the ability to quicken two powers per combat or quickening an overchanneled power is very useful.

Midnight Augmentation is another great pick. Even without extra essentia sources the ability to reduce augmentations costs of a power you use often can let you manifest at a significantly higher level than usual.
It gets even better combined with Psycarnum Infusion (though you'll need Psicrystal Containment for that).

[Crichton]

Craft Universal Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#craftUniversalItem) <-- Universal Items are the Wondrous Items of the Psi world, and that means it's a grab-bag of awesome stuff for you & your whole party. If you've got access to Magic Item Compendium, you've got a lot of choices for gear to craft, and item crafting plays into your wide power repertoire.

Psionic Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicBody) <-- you have 3 [Psionic] feats (including Psicrystal Affinity), this makes a 4th feat and thus you'd gain +8 HP. You'll get more HP for feats like Metamorphic Transfer and Boost Construct, both of which are excellent future investments.

Psionic Shot might be good if you're using Crystal Shard often, but you'd need Point Blank Shot first, and if you went that route you might want Psionic Meditation as your 5th level Feat.


3.5e is nice in that XP comes faster when you're behind.

If you take Craft Universal Item, you should ask your allies to share their XP when you craft stuff for them to use. That'll help bring the party up while not pushing you down so specifically.




Thanks all, for the excellent advice. Craft Universal Item might be the way to go at this point. Maybe.

I'm aware of the xp sharing when crafting for others, so that's good. So far I've only spent xp on learning new powers, but if I start crafting, it'll become important. I'm counting on the 'more xp when I'm behind' rules to kick in, although it looks like that doesn't start until 4th level. Right now the calculations give me the same as my party, even when I'm behind.


So many options. Psicrystal Containment is also tempting. But so is Psionic Shot. But so is Midnight Augmentation. I've got choices to make!

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks all, for the excellent advice. Craft Universal Item might be the way to go at this point. Maybe.

I'm aware of the xp sharing when crafting for others, so that's good. So far I've only spent xp on learning new powers, but if I start crafting, it'll become important. I'm counting on the 'more xp when I'm behind' rules to kick in, although it looks like that doesn't start until 4th level. Right now the calculations give me the same as my party, even when I'm behind.


So many options. Psicrystal Containment is also tempting. But so is Psionic Shot. But so is Midnight Augmentation. I've got choices to make!

do you really need psionic shot?

[Crichton]

do you really need psionic shot?

Need? No. But 2d6 damage added to all ranged attacks, costing no PP, just a psionic focus, seems like it would help me stretch my UPPD and PP. I could do 1d8 +2d6 with just my crossbow, no PP required. Plus, if it gets less relevant, I can always Psychic Reform that feat choice away at level 7 or later. Unless you suggest something better for level 3? I'm very open to suggestions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's the Extra Unique Power feat in Dragon Magazine #319. Does what it says on the tin. You can take it up to once per character level.

[edit] Oh, I already mentioned this earlier. Sorry, I've slept since then. Still, it's worth a reminder.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Need? No. But 2d6 damage added to all ranged attacks, costing no PP, just a psionic focus, seems like it would help me stretch my UPPD and PP. I could do 1d8 +2d6 with just my crossbow, no PP required. Plus, if it gets less relevant, I can always Psychic Reform that feat choice away at level 7 or later. Unless you suggest something better for level 3? I'm very open to suggestions.

You can reform anything away at level 7, so it's not like you can't try out the various feats and drop them if you don't like them.
Though i'd agree that Psionic Shot is a waste. If you find yourself running out of PP often i'd suggest getting Astral Construct instead, those are very pp-efficient.

[Nifft]

Need? No. But 2d6 damage added to all ranged attacks, costing no PP, just a psionic focus, seems like it would help me stretch my UPPD and PP. I could do 1d8 +2d6 with just my crossbow, no PP required. Plus, if it gets less relevant, I can always Psychic Reform that feat choice away at level 7 or later. Unless you suggest something better for level 3? I'm very open to suggestions.

I'll second the suggestion of the astral construct power as an efficient use of PP, and add the idea of the Boost Construct feat as a nicely scaling boost to that power.

Or astral construct + Craft Universal Item, and pick up Boost Construct later.


I see Midnight Augmentation on your list, which implies that Incarnum is available. Talk to your DM about how Psicarnum Infusion + Azure Talent work. It might be possible to use those two in combo to get a small pool of refillable power points. It's not many power points, and you need to expend focus to get them, but it's roughly on par with a [Reserve] feat in terms of giving you at-will attacks. You'll want Psionic Meditation ASAP. I personally allow it to work, but I don't allow bestow power at all, so you can't refill your regular power points using Psicarnum Infusion.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I see Midnight Augmentation on your list, which implies that Incarnum is available. Talk to your DM about how Psicarnum Infusion + Azure Talent work. It might be possible to use those two in combo to get a small pool of refillable power points. It's not many power points, and you need to expend focus to get them, but it's roughly on par with a [Reserve] feat in terms of giving you at-will attacks. You'll want Psionic Meditation ASAP. I personally allow it to work, but I don't allow bestow power at all, so you can't refill your regular power points using Psicarnum Infusion.

"It's a psionic reserve feat" is how i'd try to sell the Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion combo to my DM, but it's very much understating things.
Because it gives you at-will any power below a certain level, especially if you combine it with Midnight Augmentation, the Torc of Power Preservation and Earth Power.

As for Psionic Meditation it's good, yes, but you don't qualify at 3rd and you should really try to pick it up from a Nimblestep (LEoF) if you can instead of spending a feat.

[Crichton]

"It's a psionic reserve feat" is how i'd try to sell the Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion combo to my DM, but it's very much understating things.
Because it gives you at-will any power below a certain level, especially if you combine it with Midnight Augmentation, the Torc of Power Preservation and Earth Power.

As for Psionic Meditation it's good, yes, but you don't qualify at 3rd and you should really try to pick it up from a Nimblestep (LEoF) if you can instead of spending a feat.



Ooh, thanks for the reference to the Nimblestep. I don't use melee weapons pretty much at all, but it's probably worth the price just for the Psionic Meditation equivalent. I mean, it will be later on when I can afford it. I may end up taking Psionic Meditation before then (5th level bonus feat, maybe), and Reforming it away after I can afford a Nimblestep.

[Nifft]

"It's a psionic reserve feat" is how i'd try to sell the Azure Talent + Psycarnum Infusion combo to my DM, but it's very much understating things.
Because it gives you at-will any power below a certain level, especially if you combine it with Midnight Augmentation, the Torc of Power Preservation and Earth Power.

Yeah, but it costs you Focus, and it doesn't auto-negate SR, so it's not quite a [Reserve] feat -- it's both better and worse, which is to say it's different.

My recommendation is based on the idea it's roughly on par with a [Reserve] feat in terms of combat power, but out-of-combat it's got a lot more utility -- if and only if you have enough unique daily powers to enact that utility, which an Erudite often does not. For a Psion it's a higher-power combo, of course.

In return, Psions get less value from Item Creation feats -- an Erudite really shines with crafting, thanks to the deep power library.


Ooh, thanks for the reference to the Nimblestep. I don't use melee weapons pretty much at all, but it's probably worth the price just for the Psionic Meditation equivalent. I mean, it will be later on when I can afford it. I may end up taking Psionic Meditation before then (5th level bonus feat, maybe), and Reforming it away after I can afford a Nimblestep.

Ooo, that thing gives you 3 feats -- Up the Walls, Mental Leap, and Psionic Meditation. Too bad Erudites don't have proficiency with short swords. I bet there's a weapon ability to mitigate that.

Might be worth Psychic Reforming yourself to have the 3 requisite feats (Up the Walls, Psi Meditation, and Craft Psi Arms & Armor) and just making one yourself, then Psychic Reforming away two of those feats (or all 3 of them). Doing some weapon & armor crafting might also help your party -- look at what gear they have when you hit level 5 or 6.

[Crichton]

So much good advice! Ok, so next question:

What feat should I choose for my psicrystal?

(Let it be established here that the ruling in this game is that psicrystals advance in HD, so also advance in feats as other creatures do. No need to discuss if, just which)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So much good advice! Ok, so next question:

What feat should I choose for my psicrystal?

(Let it be established here that the ruling in this game is that psicrystals advance in HD, so also advance in feats as other creatures do. No need to discuss if, just which)Psicrystals can take Life Sense, and possibly Mindsight. At higher levels, especially if you dabble in stealth, give it Darkstalker. I'd definitely suggest Hidden Talent, with a 1st level power you'll use often outside of a fight. Then you can "manifest from the stone" like you would with a power stone, and it'll be a power you won't have to use a UPPD on. Because:


Bad Good Touch
This trick is especially useful for wilders and other manifesters with extremely limited powers known, but it's useful for manifesters of every stripe.

The more manifesters that share a power list that are in the same party, the more powers they'll have available to them. All they need to do is retain physical contact while "addressing the power stone" that is the other party member. For instance, only one manifester needs to know inertial armor for everyone to use it. Or if nobody wants to waste that power known slot, feel free to take it on your psicrystal with the Hidden Talent feat. Then everyone in the whole group can touch the psicrystal, manifest it using their own power points, and augment it sky-high.

Not very useful in battle, for the most part, but it's a definite way to improve viability for utility and long-duration buff powers.

Beyond that, what do you see yourself doing with it?

[Crichton]

Psicrystals can take Life Sense, and possibly Mindsight. At higher levels, especially if you dabble in stealth, give it Darkstalker. I'd definitely suggest Hidden Talent, with a 1st level power you'll use often outside of a fight. Then you can "manifest from the stone" like you would with a power stone, and it'll be a power you won't have to use a UPPD on. Because:



Beyond that, what do you see yourself doing with it?



I'd love to give my Psicrystal Hidden Talent. That sounds amazing. But how do I get around this?





Prerequisite:

This feat can only be taken at 1st level,

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd love to give my Psicrystal Hidden Talent. That sounds amazing. But how do I get around this?Replace the suggested feat (Alertness) with it. Note that Alertness is not a bonus feat, nor is it granted by the psicrystal granted abilities. (That one is granted to the owner.)

[Crichton]

Replace the suggested feat (Alertness) with it. Note that Alertness is not a bonus feat, nor is it granted by the psicrystal granted abilities. (That one is granted to the owner.)

Hey, I guess that is how it's all written out. So in the psicrystal listing, the Alertness feature and the Alertness feat in the psicrystal's statblock are two separate things? One is a bonus granted to the owner, and one is a feat choice for the psicrystal, but it's not required, and I can choose any other feat at level 1 for the psicrystal? And this is a thing that DM's allow without book throwing, right? I mean, I see that it's RAW, but....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey, I guess that is how it's all written out. So in the psicrystal listing, the Alertness feature and the Alertness feat in the psicrystal's statblock are two separate things? One is a bonus granted to the owner, and one is a feat choice for the psicrystal, but it's not required, and I can choose any other feat at level 1 for the psicrystal? And this is a thing that DM's allow without book throwing, right? I mean, I see that it's RAW, but....Them's the rules, though DMs are free to houserule however they want.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So much good advice! Ok, so next question:

What feat should I choose for my psicrystal?

(Let it be established here that the ruling in this game is that psicrystals advance in HD, so also advance in feats as other creatures do. No need to discuss if, just which)
As i said before Metapsionic feats are always a good pick if you plan to get Feat Leech. Any psionic feat really, assuming the Psicrystal can qualify for it.

Otherwise the Host feats in CPsi are worth a look, not for their powers but because they grant the psicrystal a manifester level of 1/2 its HD, enabling it to take more psionic feats that require one. Like Metamorphic Transfer for when you get Metamorphosis.


Hey, I guess that is how it's all written out. So in the psicrystal listing, the Alertness feature and the Alertness feat in the psicrystal's statblock are two separate things? One is a bonus granted to the owner, and one is a feat choice for the psicrystal, but it's not required, and I can choose any other feat at level 1 for the psicrystal? And this is a thing that DM's allow without book throwing, right? I mean, I see that it's RAW, but....
If your DM doesn't allow you to exchange the default feat you can always Psychic Reformation it. That's unquestionable RAW.

[Nifft]

Then you can "manifest from the stone" like you would with a power stone, and it'll be a power you won't have to use a UPPD on. Because:

Beyond that, what do you see yourself doing with it? Erudite manifesting seems to say that when you pay power points to manifest a power, that power counts towards your UPPD.

Good Bad Touch gets around a Psion's powers known limitation, but not the UPPD limitation.

The trick is a LOT better when you're a Wilder with an Erudite cohort.



As i said before Metapsionic feats are always a good pick if you plan to get Feat Leech. Any psionic feat really, assuming the Psicrystal can qualify for it. Feat Leech is a brilliant power on a Psion but IMO it's not really worth spending an Erudite's very limited UPPD -- not unless you've got a whole party's worth of [Psionic] and [Metapsionic] feats to pick from.

[Crichton]

Erudite manifesting seems to say that when you pay power points to manifest a power, that power counts towards your UPPD.



Not necessarily. The language describing how UPPD works specifies that
an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows (emphasis mine)


And in the rules regarding an Erudite learning new powers state that after the psicraft checks, the Erudite can either:

a)manifest the power normally on their next turn, or
b) spend the time and xp to "permanently commit the power to his own repertoire" (again, emphasis mine)



Seems to me that an Erudite manifesting a power from another source, instead of spending the time and xp to learn in permanently, doesn't use UPPD.


It should be noted (as I recently learned in another thread) that Complete Psionic made an addendum to the rules regarding using this method on power stones, in that using your own PP to manifest from a stone still expends the stone. So you can use your own ML, and augment and use metapsionics on the power from the stone, but it still costs you the stone.

[Ramza00]

How broken would Erudite be that if you change the rules to this.

You have two pools to manifest powers from.

One pool allows you to have powers known where if you manifest a power you can choose to use that power known an unlimited uses of this power per day. (Limited by power points) of 1 at Level 1, 2 at level 2, 3 at level 4 and so on up to 10 at level 18 and 11 at level 20. (aka like a wilder)

The 2nd Pool is based off an ability modifier giving you X number of charges equal to your ability modifier. So if you have 18 Int and thus you get to use this 2nd pool 4 times a day. Well this 2nd pool allows you to manifest a power known (separate from your 1st level power known) but each time you pick a power it takes 1 of your charges from your 2nd pool.

Effectively the 1st pool is your daily use pool similar to a wilder, while the 2nd pool is for buff powers that last a long period but also for more adaptability.

[Nifft]

Not necessarily. The language describing how UPPD works specifies that (emphasis mine)

Hah, that's kinda fun.

By your reading, an Erudite can only Good Bad Touch powers which the Erudite doesn't yet know.

This prohibits the Erudite from making his own power stones and Good Bad Touching them; you're limited to what you can buy or find, and you're rewarded for not learning powers.

That's directly contrary to the class's idiom, since the class is all about learning all the powers -- if we're trying to read the class as intended, the idea that knowing fewer powers makes an Erudite stronger should be recognized as absurd on its face.




It should be noted (as I recently learned in another thread) that Complete Psionic made an addendum to the rules regarding using this method on power stones, in that using your own PP to manifest from a stone still expends the stone. So you can use your own ML, and augment and use metapsionics on the power from the stone, but it still costs you the stone. Sure, and that makes your reading even worse so it's good of you to acknowledge it, but 90% of Compete Psionic should be ignored by everyone.

[Crichton]

Hah, that's kinda fun.

By your reading,



I mean, take a good look at the language, and tell me if I'm RAW wrong here. They explicitly say that the UPPD limit is from your known powers, as well as repeatedly using that word 'repertoire' to refer to the Erudite's known powers, and specifically call out that manifesting from another source happens with powers that aren't part of that.






Sure, and that makes your reading even worse so it's good of you to acknowledge it, but 90% of Compete Psionic should be ignored by everyone.

It kinda makes it worse, yeah. It still costs a power stone and a couple round for psicraft checks, but as a tradeoff you get to augment, use your ML, etc.. I do agree with you on a lot from Complete Psionic, but as was pointed out to me in another thread, the published Erudite comes from CPsi, so it's hard to make a case for picking and choosing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's "Bad Good Touch," by the way. Note the strikethrough and the transposition of words.

[Nifft]

[QUOTE=Nifft;23306967]Hah, that's kinda fun.

By your reading,

[/QUOTE

I mean, take a good look at the language, and tell me if I'm RAW wrong here. They explicitly say that the UPPD limit is from your known powers, as well as repeatedly using that word 'repertoire' to refer to the Erudite's known powers, and specifically call out that manifesting from another source happens with powers that aren't part of that.

Yeah, and what I see is what I wrote previously -- that the rule which allows you to manifest a power you don't know overrides only the "power you know" part of the Erudite's manifesting rules.

If the rest of the Erudite's manifesting rules don't apply -- which is what your reading requires -- then the Erudite has no text allowing the expenditure of power points at all. I find that absurd.

My minimalist reading seems to be the most reasonable way to interpret the text: the specific permission ("manifest a power you don't know") overrides only the restriction ("power you know"), and not any other restrictions. You're still limited to spending PP up to your manifester level, you're still limited to spending only the PP you actually have, and you're still limited to a handful of UPPD.

That's my reading. I think you are RAW wrong because you're trying to use one specific exception to overturn two rules: one of which is accurate and valid, but the other of which is a different, separate mechanic.

Specific trumps general, but specific is always limited to something specific.

[Crichton]

snip


Ok, so I'm typically inclined to defer to your greater experience, but, with all respect, all that you just described sounds like your RAI interpretation. And it may very well be the intended interpretation, but I can't find it anywhere in the RAW.



I'm attempting to go through your assertions on a point by point basis, to make sure I understand all of what you're saying (if it seems that I'm misunderstanding your statements, let me know), so let's take a look:




Yeah, and what I see is what I wrote previously -- that the rule which allows you to manifest a power you don't know overrides only the "power you know" part of the Erudite's manifesting rules.

The rule for this comes from pg 154 of Complete Psionic, in the section of the Erudite class description labeled "Learning Discipline Powers" which in turn is reproduced almost exactly from the EPH pg 64, in the section on Manifesting an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known.


If the rest of the Erudite's manifesting rules don't apply -- which is what your reading requires --

I'm not sure what part of my text you drew this assertion from, but I'm not seeing it. Both of the locations referenced above which outline the rules for manifesting from another source specifically use the phrase "manifest the power normally on his next turn." That phrase pretty specifically means you use the normal rules for manifesting a power. I don't see any part at all of the Erudite's manifesting rules being excluded here.


then the Erudite has no text allowing the expenditure of power points at all. I find that absurd.

Again, I don't see how any of what I said excluded any rules about how Erudites expend power points to manifest powers. Those rules come from CPsi pg 153, the first sentence in the section 'Unique Powers per Day' saying "An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points."



My minimalist reading seems to be the most reasonable way to interpret the text: the specific permission ("manifest a power you don't know") overrides only the restriction ("power you know"), and not any other restrictions. You're still limited to spending PP up to your manifester level, you're still limited to spending only the PP you actually have, and you're still limited to a handful of UPPD.

Maybe this is where we crossed wires? It seems like you are thinking that I'm asserting the exception to UPPD comes from the "manifest a power you don't know" rules. I'm not. I'm saying it comes from the UPPD rules text itself.

That rule, from pg 153 of CPsi, says "Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." (yes, that odd comma after 'from' is in the text)

This is the entirety of the text regarding the Erudite's limitation on UPPD. Nothing more. In that text, it specifically calls out that UPPD limited powers must come from the Erudite's "repertoire of powers he knows"

So when the section on manifesting from another source says you can "manifest the power normally" it should be referencing all of the Erudite's manifesting rules, including the rule that unknown powers don't count towards UPPD



That's my reading. I think you are RAW wrong because you're trying to use one specific exception to overturn two rules: one of which is accurate and valid, but the other of which is a different, separate mechanic.

Specific trumps general, but specific is always limited to something specific


You lost me here. I'm not referencing any exceptions at all, nor overturning anything. The UPPD rule is one sentence, which includes the part about it being limited to known powers. There's no specific nor general to be trumped. It's part of the UPPD rule, not an exception to it.

Again, with great respect, help me see if I'm wrong here, especially by RAW. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that it's what they intended for the Erudite, but it sure seems like it's baked right in to the only sentence that defines the UPPD rule.

[Nifft]

Maybe this is where we crossed wires? It seems like you are thinking that I'm asserting the exception to UPPD comes from the "manifest a power you don't know" rules. I'm not. I'm saying it comes from the UPPD rules text itself.

That rule, from pg 153 of CPsi, says "Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." (yes, that odd comma after 'from' is in the text)

This is the entirety of the text regarding the Erudite's limitation on UPPD. Nothing more. In that text, it specifically calls out that UPPD limited powers must come from the Erudite's "repertoire of powers he knows"

So when the section on manifesting from another source says you can "manifest the power normally" it should be referencing all of the Erudite's manifesting rules, including the rule that unknown powers don't count towards UPPD

(...)

You lost me here. I'm not referencing any exceptions at all, nor overturning anything. The UPPD rule is one sentence, which includes the part about it being limited to known powers. There's no specific nor general to be trumped. It's part of the UPPD rule, not an exception to it.

Again, with great respect, help me see if I'm wrong here, especially by RAW. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or that it's what they intended for the Erudite, but it sure seems like it's baked right in to the only sentence that defines the UPPD rule.

Okay, let me try again in a drier academic style.


The text that allows an Erudite to manifest powers is this:



Power Points/Day: An erudite's ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given on the advancement table. In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table 2—1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points, EPH 18). His race might also provide bonus power points per day, as might certain feats and items.

Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.

An erudite does not choose a primary discipline.

Powers Discovered (Repertoire): An erudite selects powers from the same power list that psions and wilders use. An erudite begins play knowing two 1st-level powers of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus your character possesses, he knows one additional 1st-level power when you begin play. Each time he achieves a new level, he unlocks the knowledge of two new powers of any level or levels that he can manifest (according to his new level) from the psion/wilder power list.

An erudite cannot automatically learn powers from any of the discipline power lists. However, he can learn such powers later, as described below under Learning Discipline Powers.

To learn or manifest a power, an erudite must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power's level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against erudite powers is 10 + the powers level + the erudite's Int modifier. An erudite can later learn new powers from power stones, from the minds of other willing psionic characters, and from the minds of unwilling unconscious psionic characters (see Adding Powers to an Erudite's Repertoire, below).


The text that specifies how an Erudite manifests normally is the text inside the Unique Powers per Day class feature.

When the later text says that an Erudite can "manifest normally", that means manifesting through the Unique Powers per Day class feature -- there is no other feature which allows him to manifest powers.

It's not just one sentence in the middle. It's the whole class feature, including the feature's name. You can't manifest if you lack the Unique Powers per Day class feature.


The exception I'm talking about is manifesting an unknown power, which appears in two places -- both the SRD / XPH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) and also in the Erudite's writeup (under "ADDING POWERS TO AN ERUDITE'S REPERTOIRE") -- though the latter seems to default to the former (since it says "as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook").

I believe that exception only removes the restriction that the power be known ("in his repertoire"), and affects no other power-related mechanics -- that's why I list limits like total PP expenditure as examples of mechanics which ought to remain relevant.


Putting it together:
- the UPPD restriction affects normal manifestation;
- the Good Bad Touch exception specifies normal manifestation;
- the Good Bad Touch exception doesn't remove the UPPD restriction.

Therefore, I think that the UPPD restriction does apply.

[Crichton]

Okay, let me try again in a drier academic style.


The text that allows an Erudite to manifest powers is this:



The text that specifies how an Erudite manifests normally is the text inside the Unique Powers per Day class feature.

When the later text says that an Erudite can "manifest normally", that means manifesting through the Unique Powers per Day class feature -- there is no other feature which allows him to manifest powers.

It's not just one sentence in the middle. It's the whole class feature, including the feature's name. You can't manifest if you lack the Unique Powers per Day class feature.


The exception I'm talking about is manifesting an unknown power, which appears in two places -- both the SRD / XPH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) and also in the Erudite's writeup (under "ADDING POWERS TO AN ERUDITE'S REPERTOIRE") -- though the latter seems to default to the former (since it says "as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook").

I believe that exception only removes the restriction that the power be known ("in his repertoire"), and affects no other power-related mechanics -- that's why I list limits like total PP expenditure as examples of mechanics which ought to remain relevant.


Putting it together:
- the UPPD restriction affects normal manifestation;
- the Good Bad Touch exception specifies normal manifestation;
- the Good Bad Touch exception doesn't remove the UPPD restriction.

Therefore, I think that the UPPD restriction does apply.



Ok, I think I'm seeing your train of logic here. (thanks for being patient with me, I really do appreciate it)


You're saying that because the language that creates the limitation on UPPD comes inside the same class feature heading as the language which describes how an Erudite manifests powers, any and all manifestation of powers must be limited?

But that's not what the language in that class feature says.

The Unique Powers per Day class features defines 'normal manifestation' as:

Erudites manifest psionic powers
Those powers are paid for by expending power points
Powers which come from his repertoire are limited to a certain number of unique powers per day
Powers in his repertoire are simply known and don't require preparation
Spent power points are regained after a good night's sleep (apparently races that don't sleep can't regain Erudite power points, by RAW)




'Normal manifestation' already doesn't apply the limitation to powers that come from another source. 'Normal manifestation' doesn't define any other sources that may be available to manifest from, but that part comes later.


The only way to get the language of the class feature to apply the limit to powers from another source is to somehow think that the rules for manifesting from another source somehow just remove the clause 'from the repertoire of powers he knows' from the class feature language, then reinterpret the remaining language.

Indeed, if they authors had left that clause out, the UPPD limit would apply to any and all powers manifested by an Erudite. But they didn't, and the rules for manifesting from another source don't remove the clause either.




Putting it together:
- the UPPD class feature enables Erudites to manifest powers
- the language in the UPPD class feature applies a limit on unique powers per day, but the limit specifically only applies to powers from his repertoire
- the Good Bad Touch exception allows manifesting from a source other than his repertoire, so the limit doesn't apply




As a side note, and not relevant to this RAW discussion, my take on this is that, at least when only taking power stones into account, this isn't such a big, game-breaking thing. An Erudite can already use powers from power stones without counting against UPPD. This just lets them augment them and use their own ML, and such, as a tradeoff for making 3 psicraft checks and using 3 rounds (and their own PP, which normally using power stones doesn't). And they still have to spend the power stone, so it's still eating into their wealth purchasing stones of powers they don't know.

It may make a bigger difference if there are other manifesters around to 'borrow' powers from, but they still take 3 rounds to manifest, and 3 psicraft checks. I don't see that as 'breaking' the Erudite, or lifting their one limitation....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Again:
It's "Bad Good Touch," by the way. Note the strikethrough and the transposition of words.Pthbthbthb

[Nifft]

Ok, I think I'm seeing your train of logic here. (thanks for being patient with me, I really do appreciate it) It's a pleasure to have a rational & well-reasoned debate.

Unfortunately your method & tone are not the default here, so please forgive me for previously thinking you might have been seeking sport rather than discussion.



You're saying that because the language that creates the limitation on UPPD comes inside the same class feature heading as the language which describes how an Erudite manifests powers, any and all manifestation of powers must be limited? Manifestations that you pay for with your own power points, yes.

Manifesting from a power stone or a dorje or whatever is NOT covered by the UPPD restriction -- just powers that you manifest yourself.


But that's not what the language in that class feature says.

The Unique Powers per Day class features defines 'normal manifestation' as:

Erudites manifest psionic powers
Those powers are paid for by expending power points
Powers which come from his repertoire are limited to a certain number of unique powers per day
Powers in his repertoire are simply known and don't require preparation
Spent power points are regained after a good night's sleep (apparently races that don't sleep can't regain Erudite power points, by RAW)

I see you trying to smush two limitations into a single line item. That's not how I see it. Here's my reading:

The Unique Powers per Day class features defines 'normal manifestation' as:

Erudites manifest psionic powers
Those powers are paid for by expending power points
Powers must come from his repertoire of known powers <-- this is what Good Bad Touch overrides
Powers are limited to a certain number of unique powers per day
Powers in his repertoire are simply known and don't require preparation
Spent power points are regained after a good night's sleep (apparently races that don't sleep can't regain Erudite power points, by RAW)

Note that Psions also have the clause (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) about only recovering power points after a good night's sleep:


A psion simply knows his powers; they are ingrained in his mind. He does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though he must get a good night’s sleep each day to regain all his spent power points.

Elves are irrelevant, the real victims here are Warforged who even have a psionic sub-race. Yes, the psionic sub-race of Warforged can't recover power points by RAW.

WotC, won't you stop the hateful discrimination against our construct allies?


Warfored Are The Friends We Made
This message was approved by House Cannith.



'Normal manifestation' already doesn't apply the limitation to powers that come from another source. 'Normal manifestation' doesn't define any other sources that may be available to manifest from, but that part comes later. The rules for manifesting from another source via Good Bad Touch specify an exception to the rules, and then explicitly defer to "normal manifestation". That's why I bring it up. It's not normal in the ways that the exception specifies, but the exception then goes on to say that it is normal in all other ways.

Here's the XPH / SRD text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) where it says that:

Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.
That means all the normal rules apply, except as removed by the exception -- and the only rule removed by the exception was that the power must be known to the manifester. Therefore, all other rules apply.

The Erudite text says something similar, and then defers to the XPH / SRD:


If the check succeeds, the erudite understands the selected power. He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook, or he can attempt to permanently commit the power to his own repertoire.
Note that this is under the Learning Discipline Powers header, so clearly an Erudite is not allowed to manifest non-Discipline powers using the Good Bad Touch method. <-- blue implies sarcasm

Rather, it's clear that the Complete Psionic writers were not doing good at write stuff.



The only way to get the language of the class feature to apply the limit to powers from another source is to somehow think that the rules for manifesting from another source somehow just remove the clause 'from the repertoire of powers he knows' from the class feature language, then reinterpret the remaining language.

Indeed, if they authors had left that clause out, the UPPD limit would apply to any and all powers manifested by an Erudite. But they didn't, and the rules for manifesting from another source don't remove the clause either. Well, two points here:

1/ Your reading only works if you force two separate limitations to exist as a single rule, and then force any modification of one limitation to also apply to the other limitation.

2/ Yes, UPPD does apply to any and all powers manifested by an Erudite. They apply because the authors don't remove the clause. (Using a power-trigger or power-completion item isn't the same as manifesting a power yourself, of course.)



Putting it together:
- the UPPD class feature enables Erudites to manifest powers
- the language in the UPPD class feature applies a limit on unique powers per day, but the limit specifically only applies to powers from his repertoire
- the Good Bad Touch exception allows manifesting from a source other than his repertoire, so the limit doesn't apply Yeah I don't agree that the repertoire limitation and the UPPD limitation were intended to be a single line-item.

I think you can create an exception to one without touching the other.

As a concrete example: the Extra Unique Power feat changes your UPPD limit, but doesn't have any implication for the repertoire limitation. This is not surprising because those two limitations are separate things.



As a side note, and not relevant to this RAW discussion, my take on this is that, at least when only taking power stones into account, this isn't such a big, game-breaking thing. An Erudite can already use powers from power stones without counting against UPPD. This just lets them augment them and use their own ML, and such, as a tradeoff for making 3 psicraft checks and using 3 rounds (and their own PP, which normally using power stones doesn't). And they still have to spend the power stone, so it's still eating into their wealth purchasing stones of powers they don't know.

It may make a bigger difference if there are other manifesters around to 'borrow' powers from, but they still take 3 rounds to manifest, and 3 psicraft checks. I don't see that as 'breaking' the Erudite, or lifting their one limitation.... From a meta perspective, one big problem is that you're rewarding the Erudite for NOT learning more powers. Your reading would only allow an Erudite to manifest via Good Bad Touch when the power was not in his repertoire, so learning a power removes that option. This is bad -- learning powers should be a net positive for an Erudite, since he pays to learn most of them.

The other problem is that you're taking a hardline RAW stance on a class that's terribly written. For example, the Learning Discipline Powers issue that I mention above means that a hardline RAW stance would prohibit an Erudite from ever learning non-Discipline powers from a stone or another manifester, which seems clearly unintended. It also means you can't use Good Bad Touch to manifest a non-Discipline power, ever, which also seems clearly unintended.

I think that RAI the Erudite is supposed to learn all the powers, and use items to compensate for the otherwise severely limiting UPPD.

The CPsi alteration (which expends the power stone when you Good Bad Touch) does indeed remove a lot of potential for abuse -- you're right about that aspect of the metagame -- but I think the perverse incentive to not learn is sufficiently bad for the metagame to deny the tactic, even if it's not going to break the game's balance.


My metagame concerns are that I see a few alternatives:

- Good Bad Touch requires NOT in repertoire, bypasses UPPD, and does NOT void power stones -> perverse incentive, balance issue
- Good Bad Touch requires NOT in repertoire, bypasses UPPD, and voids power stones -> perverse incentive
- Good Bad Touch allows in repertoire, bypasses UPPD, and does not void power stones -> major balance issue, since this removes UPPD entirely
- Good Bad Touch allows in repertoire, bypasses UPPD, and voids power stones -> this effectively removes the UPPD limit and replaces it with item-crafting inconvenience, and inconvenience is a terrible balance mechanism

- Good Bad Touch requires NOT in repertoire, applies UPPD, and does NOT void power stones -> perverse incentive
- Good Bad Touch requires NOT in repertoire, applies UPPD, and voids power stones -> perverse incentive
- Good Bad Touch allows in repertoire, applies UPPD, and does NOT void power stones -> good incentive
- Good Bad Touch allows in repertoire, applies UPPD, and voids power stones -> good incentive, but annoying inconvenience

It seems to me that the best metagame (including convenience, balance, and incentives) is produced by the lower two combinations.



... hmm.

Looking over this, I think our primary point of disagreement is the interpretation of this text:



Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.


You see the bolded passage as a single restriction (UPPD + repertoire).

I don't, I see it as two separate restrictions, and I can back that reading up by showing that the two restrictions also appear independently from each other:


Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day[b] from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. [B]Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.



Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.


Since the UPPD limitation and the repertoire limitation both appear twice in the paragraph, once conjoined and once independently, I don't think it's valid to read them as necessarily conjoined.

They both limit the same thing -- which powers you can manifest on a given action -- but they are severable, and removing one limit has no particular implications on the other.


Whew. This has been a lot of words. Hopefully at least a few of them are illuminating. :smile:

[Crichton]

It's a pleasure to have a rational & well-reasoned debate.

Unfortunately your method & tone are not the default here, so please forgive me for previously thinking you might have been seeking sport rather than discussion.




Sad but true. I always try to make sure I'm expressing my gratitude here, to counteract the norm. Text doesn't convey tone well.



I'm on my way to work in a moment, so I'll be brief here and re-examine in more detail later.

From a RAI perspective, I think your logic is spot on. But from the stance of RAW, I don't see it.


It's not that I'm trying to 'smush' two limitations into a single line item. That's the way they're worded.

The sentence in question is


Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

From a grammatical structure viewpoint (sorry, linguistics background coming out), the clause 'from the repertoire of powers he knows' is attached in a subordinate manner to the part of the sentence describing the UPPD limitation. Subordinate clauses only modify the phrases/clauses they're attached to.

To rephrase the sentence in a more structurally clear way:


From the repertoire of powers he knows, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day, according to his class level


I'm not saying the authors actually intended for the limitation to only apply to powers from his repertoire. I'm just saying that's the way they wrote the rule. It's not me combining two separate things into one, it's just the way the sentence is structured. I know the authors at WotC don't have a great track record for being structurally unambiguous in their use of sentences, but that's the way they wrote it.



As another side note, you seem to be interpreting the headers of sections to be binding language. Your mention that the exception being in the Learning Discipline Powers heading limits it to only discipline powers, for example. The text of that section fairly clearly outlines how the psicraft checks can only be passed if the power in question is on his list or any discipline list. The language in the headings don't seem to have any bearing whatsoever on what rules they contain, and the heading text certainly isn't the rule itself.

[Nifft]

Sad but true. I always try to make sure I'm expressing my gratitude here, to counteract the norm. Text doesn't convey tone well.

I'm on my way to work in a moment, so I'll be brief here and re-examine in more detail later. I'll look forward to that.



It's not that I'm trying to 'smush' two limitations into a single line item. That's the way they're worded.

The sentence in question is I've already discussed this at some length -- it's the bottom section of my post, with three marked-up CPsi quotes.


https://preview.ibb.co/fNi48K/Screen_Shot_2018_08_19_at_6_43_52_PM.png (https://ibb.co/cdx9az)


Each rule which I'm calling out as separate appears in two places. Once in the sentence you like, and then once again separately. The sentence you like does not exist in isolation.



From a grammatical structure viewpoint (sorry, linguistics background coming out), the clause 'from the repertoire of powers he knows' is attached in a subordinate manner to the part of the sentence describing the UPPD limitation. Subordinate clauses only modify the phrases/clauses they're attached to. From a linguistics standpoint, the reading you like results in a rules dysfunction.



* (Unlike a psion, (an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day (from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level))).


That is wrong because your reading needs to apply "Unlike a psion" to the clause "from the repertoire of powers he knows". Thus, your reading requires that a psion does NOT manifest powers from the repertoire of powers he knows. A psion does manifest powers from the repertoire of powers he knows, so this cannot be a valid reading.


My reading:



(Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day) (from, the repertoire of powers he knows), according to his class level.


The part that is UNlike a psion is separate from the part that is LIKE a psion, by necessity.

The trailing modifier ("according to his class level") could bind to either antecedent, or both. It's not clear, but it doesn't matter because all 3 readings yield an accurate and true result.



As another side note, you seem to be interpreting the headers of sections to be binding language. Your mention that the exception being in the Learning Discipline Powers heading limits it to only discipline powers, for example. The text of that section fairly clearly outlines how the psicraft checks can only be passed if the power in question is on his list or any discipline list. The language in the headings don't seem to have any bearing whatsoever on what rules they contain, and the heading text certainly isn't the rule itself.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The section's entire first paragraph only refers to Discipline-only powers. "Discipline-only powers" is the only referent to which the following references can bind. You can claim RAI would never intend such a silly thing -- and I could agree with that -- but RAW, there's no new topic introduced between the highlighted referents in the first paragraph and the text towards the bottom which you need for your Good Bad Touch effect.


https://image.ibb.co/cGmfhe/Screen_Shot_2018_08_19_at_2_05_13_PM.png (https://ibb.co/eoMD2e)


If you're a linguist, please find the anteceding referent to which your Good Bad Touch paragraph's references could bind. It must be within the same section, and occur after the highlighted text.

[ColossusCrusher]

This is some really interesting stuff, and I thought I'd just toss in my two coppers for my personal idea for resolving the issues around Erudites. It's already been agreed that the Dragon 319 version is probably more usable than the CPsi version (and has less editing issues), so I'd use that table for UPPD, and since we're already going for the Psionic Wizard, might as well give them extra UPPD based on a high INT, like Wizards do with spell slots.

What hasn't been addressed to my knowledge beyond just being thought of as a really dumb oversight (and it's late and I'm tired and not doing the best reading comprehension here) is that adding repertoire powers scales with class level regardless of power level. I'd propose changing that to, say, 50 XP per *power* level - so a first level power is only 50 XP, which is cheaper than CPsi by level 3, and 9ths are 450 XP, and 8ths are 400 XP, which is how much adding any power costs by RAW at level 20. I know XP is a river and everything, but it'd definitely encourage the Erudite to be a little more selective with their highest-level power additions (barring Thought Bottles and stuff because, well, come on let's try to be reasonable here).

Anyway, just wanted to put in my piece. I love psionics and the Erudite to bits, and its always irritated me that Erudites are almost unusable without hard-RAW reading or wild tricks to get around the super-strict UPPD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I find erudites to be primarily for cohort/thrall material (to learn powers from/manifest from as if manifesting from a power stone), or for fodder for illithid savants to eat their learning mechanics.


The Erudite Illithid
Any manifester (except erudite psion, of course) with three levels of illithid savant can grab the StP erudite's power learning mechanic, and since the XP cost for learning powers is based on your erudite level, having an erudite level of 0 means 0 XP spent for learning any power -- AND you don't have to worry about the Unique Powers Per Day restrictions.

Furthermore, any such character could also snap up the metamind's capstone for infinite power points for 1 minute/day.

This is especially nice for psionic illithids, as they get racial manifesting anyway.

[Crichton]

This is fun, and I appreciate your continued discussion. Thanks. Having said that, these posts are getting really long!






Each rule which I'm calling out as separate appears in two places. Once in the sentence you like, and then once again separately. The sentence you like does not exist in isolation.




No, they don't appear in two places.

The UPPD rule appears once, followed by an example which illustrates that it is not a limitation on the number of times a power can be manifested, but only on the number of unique powers.

The rule which defines what the 'repertoire' is also only appears once, after the example, in this text:


An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, ...

This text is the rule that defines an Erudite as a spontaneous caster with a repertoire of powers known that don't require preparation ahead of time.

The text before, which is part of our main discussion "from, the repertoire of powers he knows,..." isn't a rule. It's not a complete thought. It's not a sentence or a clause, it's a prepositional phrase, which must by definition indicate a relationship between the object of the preposition and other parts of the sentence.




In this case, the prepositional phrase consists of the preposition 'from' and the noun phrase which serves as the object of the preposition: 'the repertoire of powers he knows.'

It refers to the repertoire of powers, but it doesn't act as a rule to define it. That text comes two sentences later, as I said above.



Instead, this prepositional phrase "from, the repertoire of powers he knows" serves here as part of the greater noun phase which makes up the object of the sentence, which outlines the limits on what 'an erudite is limited to manifesting'

That greater noun phrase:


a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.



is the phrase which outlines what the limit applies to, and thus, what it doesn't apply to.

It's a long and convoluted noun phrase, with 'unique psionic powers' at its heart, with lots of modifiers, but it's still just a noun phrase, serving as the object of the sentence. It has no verbs of its own to indicate that it is a clause or sentence.



This can be further illustrated with the tried and true method of turning the sentence into a question using the format: What?(Subject, Verb phrase), Answer: (Object)


Q: What is an erudite limited to manifesting?

A: a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

You can't leave any part of that answering noun phrase out, because every part of it is a subordinate modifier to the noun ('powers') that serves as the heart of the noun phrase.




All that wall of text to say this: When the "Bad Good Touch" exception comes up later, it doesn't modify or remove any part of the UPPD rule. It doesn't bypass or exclude the normal manifestation rules for erudites. It simply allows the erudite to manifest a power from a source that the UPPD rule defines itself as not applying to.






From a linguistics standpoint, the reading you like results in a rules dysfunction.



* (Unlike a psion, (an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day (from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level))).


That is wrong because your reading needs to apply "Unlike a psion" to the clause "from the repertoire of powers he knows". Thus, your reading requires that a psion does NOT manifest powers from the repertoire of powers he knows. A psion does manifest powers from the repertoire of powers he knows, so this cannot be a valid reading.



No, it doesn't. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from, but please let me know. English isn't some coding or scripting language with strict nesting parentheticals.

"Unlike a psion," is another prepositional phrase, consisting of the preposition 'unlike' and the noun phrase 'a psion'. Again, serving to indicate the relationship between the object of the preposition and the rest of the sentence. It doesn't somehow skip everything between the commas and apply "Unlike a psion" only to "from the repertoire of powers he knows." It serves to compare the entire clause that follows it to "a psion," which makes sense, given that the erudite is a variant of the standard psion class.





My reading:



(Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day) (from, the repertoire of powers he knows), according to his class level.


The part that is UNlike a psion is separate from the part that is LIKE a psion, by necessity.


Again, here you're separating the prepositional phrase "from, the repertoire of powers he knows" from the clause it's dependent on. The relationship is defined by the preposition 'from' and it can't be taken outside the context of the sentence it's part of.

And again, as shown above, "Unlike a psion" is another prepositional phrase, and applies to all that follows in that sentence. It compares the entire sentence to 'a psion.'




The trailing modifier ("according to his class level") could bind to either antecedent, or both. It's not clear, but it doesn't matter because all 3 readings yield an accurate and true result.


That's true, but has no effect on the discussion, as you say.






No, that's not what I'm saying.

The section's entire first paragraph only refers to Discipline-only powers. "Discipline-only powers" is the only referent to which the following references can bind. You can claim RAI would never intend such a silly thing -- and I could agree with that -- but RAW, there's no new topic introduced between the highlighted referents in the first paragraph and the text towards the bottom which you need for your Good Bad Touch effect.


https://image.ibb.co/cGmfhe/Screen_Shot_2018_08_19_at_2_05_13_PM.png (https://ibb.co/eoMD2e)




So first, this section is actually a sub-heading, under the main heading "Adding Powers to an Erudite's Repertoire," which is itself a subheading under the main heading "Variant Psion: The Erudite" which is itself a variant modification of the original Psion rules. Just to keep things in context.

Ok, so, you're correct that the first paragraph mentions only discipline powers. It does not, however, do so in a way that excludes other powers. After having just previously outlined how an erudite can add any power not from a select discipline list to his repertoire upon leveling up, this section details how an erudite can add a 'discipline-only' power to his repertoire, and applies the limit that it be one level below his maximum power. In not referring to non-discipline powers in this paragraph, it isn't excluding them from the discussion to follow (the exception), but rather, only excluding them from the limitation that they 1)be learned only from powers stones or other manifesters or Expanded Knowledge, and 2) be limited to being a lower level power.

The very next sentence, the first sentence of the second paragraph, is "No matter what the powers source..."

So there's a strike against your 'only referent to bind to' line of reasoning.

Next, in the text that describes how an erudite goes about this process, when it gets to the section for passing the psicraft check that determines if it is possible to understand the power, it specifically that in order to pass, it must be "on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists."

So it's already referring to lists outside this particular subheading, a strike against the 'no new topic introduced' reasoning.


And finally, right after that, assuming the erudite passes his psicraft check, it offers two options: manifest the power normally or permanently commit it to his repertoire.

It already establishes that it doesn't have to be a discipline-only power to succeed on the check, and it defines what can be done on a successful check in positive rules language, with sentences that tell what you can do, not what you can't. Thus, this specific paragraph trumps any previous general limits, even if there were any there.

In the text for this, it says "manifest the power normally on his next turn, as described in Expanded Psionics Handbook"

So there's your referent right there. It reaches outside this section of rules, to the parent rule from which this rule is inheriting. If nothing of the rest of my writing is convincing, this seems pretty ironclad. When it comes to manifesting the power, it doesn't even use this section to define how that's done. It refers you to the greater parent rules in the EPH.


And when it comes to option 2, committing the power to his repertoire, it also says, in that last paragraph of this subheading, that '"If the check succeeds... he can attempt to commit it to his repertoire."






If you're a linguist, please find the anteceding referent to which your Good Bad Touch paragraph's references could bind. It must be within the same section, and occur after the highlighted text.

I just did that, but please, the whole 'If you're a linguist' bit comes across a bit snarky, and gatekeepery. I'm pretty sure that's not your intention, given the generally positive nature of our discussions up to this point, but please be aware of how it may come across. I genuinely respect your input, your expertise, and increasingly, your sharp intellect. I enjoy these discussions.


edit: a small mea culpa. In earlier posts I incorrectly used the word 'clause' when I should have used the word 'phrase.' Apologies if that muddied things in any way.

[Crichton]

This is some really interesting stuff, and I thought I'd just toss in my two coppers for my personal idea for resolving the issues around Erudites. It's already been agreed that the Dragon 319 version is probably more usable than the CPsi version (and has less editing issues), so I'd use that table for UPPD, and since we're already going for the Psionic Wizard, might as well give them extra UPPD based on a high INT, like Wizards do with spell slots.

What hasn't been addressed to my knowledge beyond just being thought of as a really dumb oversight (and it's late and I'm tired and not doing the best reading comprehension here) is that adding repertoire powers scales with class level regardless of power level. I'd propose changing that to, say, 50 XP per *power* level - so a first level power is only 50 XP, which is cheaper than CPsi by level 3, and 9ths are 450 XP, and 8ths are 400 XP, which is how much adding any power costs by RAW at level 20. I know XP is a river and everything, but it'd definitely encourage the Erudite to be a little more selective with their highest-level power additions (barring Thought Bottles and stuff because, well, come on let's try to be reasonable here).

Anyway, just wanted to put in my piece. I love psionics and the Erudite to bits, and its always irritated me that Erudites are almost unusable without hard-RAW reading or wild tricks to get around the super-strict UPPD.

If I were houseruling a fix to erudite, I would do much as you say. Especially the xp costs. Personally I'd stay with the CPsci idea of the uppd limit. As it is printed the Dragon version is more powerful/less limited, but the idea of the erudite doesn't match with the idea of level based slots, to me, so I think I'd stay with an overall uppd limit. I might be inclined to add bonus uppd for INT, or more likely INT/2, though. 11 isn't a completely horrible limit, but it's a lot less versatility than other caster classes at lvl20. I think INT/2 is a good compromise.