Does casting a spell negate stealth?

[Curious_GOO]

Okay, this is a question about my previous campaign; I understand that the DM is god but they had painted this choice as a 5e rule rather than as their personal ruling so I'm curious.

I was playing a Bard in the last campaign and the party had set up an ambush for a group of orcs - there were 5 people in the party and the closest one to me was 20ft away and we all did very well on our stealth rolls. When the first orc got just within 60ft I cast "Heat Metal" on him.

At that point the DM ruled that my stealth was broken because of the somatic aspect of it; I asked if whispering would make a difference in the future and they said that somatic automatically breaks stealth.

I am just not sure how this works given the facts of the situation and that lots of somatic spells have long ranges; I could accept the orc now looking for whoever was trying to roast them but to have them automatically see my bard seems... off?

Thanks!

[Spiritchaser]

I’ll have to leave the finer points of rules law to those with a more encyclopedic knowledge but for whatever it’s worth; I’d draw a distinction between casting a spell in general, and the specific case where you cast heat metal on the orc.

In the very general case, I would certainly not rule that spellcasring violates stealth.

In your case however, I can see why your DM might rule that casting a debuff on a target did. He might well presume that its similar enough to an attack.

[hymer]

First, let's be clear: Somatic components are the movements of hand, arm, and fingers. Whispering wouldn't affect that one way or another. That would be the Verbal component.

Personally, I'd say that attacking someone or casting a spell at them will generally break stealth, as does attacking them (exceptions would be things like great range, or some limit on the target's ability to sense you). That doesn't mean you can't make offensive spellcasting useful in ambush situations, as you still have your movement (and bonus action for those who can hide with that) to take cover and be out of sight, and next round you can hide again.

With Heat Metal, I'd not have the bonus action activations break Stealth, however.

[Ashaman]

The Arcane Trickster class feature 'Magical Ambush':
Starting at 9th level, if you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn.

At a minimum, the existence of this class feature implies that stealth is not broken until after the spell has landed. That tells me that the verbal and somatic parts of spellcasting don't automatically break stealth, though the bright magical light streaking towards a target might give away the game.

[Unoriginal]

Okay, this is a question about my previous campaign; I understand that the DM is god but they had painted this choice as a 5e rule rather than as their personal ruling so I'm curious.

I was playing a Bard in the last campaign and the party had set up an ambush for a group of orcs - there were 5 people in the party and the closest one to me was 20ft away and we all did very well on our stealth rolls. When the first orc got just within 60ft I cast "Heat Metal" on him.

At that point the DM ruled that my stealth was broken because of the somatic aspect of it; I asked if whispering would make a difference in the future and they said that somatic automatically breaks stealth.

I am just not sure how this works given the facts of the situation and that lots of somatic spells have long ranges; I could accept the orc now looking for whoever was trying to roast them but to have them automatically see my bard seems... off?

Thanks!


If you cast as spell with Verbal components, you are not stealthing anymore, this is in the rules.

You can't just whisper the magic to hide & cast both. Only the Subtle Spell metamagic of the Sorcerer can let you cast spells with Verbal components without being noticed.

THAT BEING SAID, the orcs would have been under the surprised condition, since you engaged the combat using stealth and they didn't perceive you until you started attacking.

So you're not *ruining* the ambush, you're just *starting* it.


The Arcane Trickster class feature 'Magical Ambush':
Starting at 9th level, if you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn.

At a minimum, the existence of this class feature implies that stealth is not broken until after the spell has landed. That tells me that the verbal and somatic parts of spellcasting don't automatically break stealth, though the bright magical light streaking towards a target might give away the game.


This is incorrect. Casting a spell does mean you are revealing yourself, Magical Ambush simply rewards you for doing so.

Basically it is: If caster was hidden when they started casting, Magical Ambush applies, but they are no longer hidden.

[saucerhead]

Hide is an action. As soon as you take any other action, attack, cast, etc. you are no longer actively hiding. You are springing the ambush. Your group might want to discuss ahead of time what range to attack at. That way everyone gets in their swings.

[TheFryingPen]

If you cast as spell with Verbal components, you are not stealthing anymore, this is in the rules.

You can't just whisper the magic to hide & cast both. Only the Subtle Spell metamagic of the Sorcerer can let you cast spells with Verbal components without being noticed.


Please quote / reference. I'd be very interested in this since I haven't found any clear statements on this topic in the PHB:


There is no definition on how loud a verbal component needs to be (it specifically mentions the importance of pitch and resonance, but not amplitude on PHB 203). Personally, I'd rate the noise level of casting a spell at no more than normal speech by default, possibly louder if it's a high level spell and possibly lower if someone tries to be sneaky with it (could increase cast time, require checks etc.)
The Hiding section on PHB 177 states that you reveal yourself on making noise, yet the examples given are "shouting a warning or knocking over a vase", which imo belong in the category of "louder than average" noise.
The best thing I found on "how well do you hear something from a distance" in 5e is the Dungeon Master Screen Reincarnated, stating normal noise travels 20-120 feet (and trying to be quiet is half that).

So depending on the circumstances (how well does sound travel in your current environment, is it quiet or is there ambient noise, what's the distance?) and assuming a spell is cast at "normal noise level" the casting itself could very well go unnoticed. I think I'd be fair to at least give players a chance to do this. Either by requiring checks to be successful, requiring more cast time or just giving creatures a free perception check (with a varying bonus depending on context).




Basically it is: If caster was hidden when they started casting, Magical Ambush applies, but they are no longer hidden.

Well, only if the casting and/or the effects raise suspicion and you get detected afterwards. Generally, the books don't specify how to determine that a spell was cast with your normal senses (unless you are looking at the caster at that moment) or which effects are interpreted as the doing of a spell. There are some obvious ones (mainly offensive ones) but also rather subtle examples (buffs, debuffs, illusions, charms). At least some of them are effects you can not perceive normally, it would require Detect Magic / Identify.



Hide is an action. As soon as you take any other action, attack, cast, etc. you are no longer actively hiding. You are springing the ambush. Your group might want to discuss ahead of time what range to attack at. That way everyone gets in their swings.

To go into hiding is an action, then you keep hiding until you are noticed. Taking actions to do things doesn't reveal you, unless these actions cause you to get noticed.

[saucerhead]

Please quote / reference.
To go into hiding is an action, then you keep hiding until you are noticed. Taking actions to do things doesn't reveal you, unless these actions cause you to get noticed.

Interesting. It doesn't actually mention casting spells...

PHB pg195
If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses.

[Xetheral]

Basically it is: If caster was hidden when they started casting, Magical Ambush applies, but they are no longer hidden.

I'm not sure this is correct. By my reading, the Magical Ambush ability requires the caster to be hidden when the spellcasting is completed, not when the spellcasting is started, because it is only after the act of spellcasting is completed that the spell can be considered "cast".

I'd rule it similarly to pop-up ranged attacks when hiding: so long as you can gain line of sight without fully revealing yourself, you remain hidden long enough to complete the attack/cast the spell, and then are no longer hidden afterwards.

Going with your ruling would mean, among other things, that characters couldn't use hiding to avoid counterspells, and could never hide to gain advantage on spell attack rolls.

[DMThac0]

Interesting. It doesn't actually mention casting spells...

PHB pg195
If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
you make an attack, you give away your location when
the attack hits or misses.

It may not specifically mention casting a spell, but most of us can agree that Heat Metal is an attack spell. For those who do not agree, my argument is that it causes damage, and damage is an aggressive action. You choose to make an aggressive action (casting the spell), thus making it an attack.

So by process of elimination casting the spell Heat metal was an attack, thus it broke stealth.

Hide = action
Casting = action
Casting a spell with verbal components = making noise
Making noise while hiding = possibility of being noticed

How loud you are brings into play subtle spell, deception, performance, and/or other rules for negating the ability to be seen/heard as casting a spell. In that case you are no longer hiding only from visibility, but from also not being heard. So yea..with all of those things in play, it is easily argued that you could break stealth.

However, if you wanted to be a lenient DM you'd simply impose a negative to the player's stealth check vs the creatures' active/passive perception.

[Unoriginal]

Since being hidden requires you to be "unheard", and verbal components can be heard, verbal components means you can't be hidden.

Of course, we're talking about normal circumstances. If you're casting a spell in a busy forge filled with smiths hammering swords into shape, they're probably not going to hear you.

[Armored Walrus]

Hey Curious, looks like you've got some evidence that this is a ruling, rather than definitively RAW. That being said, I certainly don't find any fault with your DM's ruling, and would absolutely rule it the same way.

Edit: Well, except, as others have pointed out, it would be the Verbal component, not the Somatic...

[xroads]

Something to consider, Heat Metal requires line of site to the target. That sounds to me as though that at least the initial casting on the target is obvious and apparent.

Regardless, as a DM, I'd have the spell break stealth like most other actions.


Verbal requires a "particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance" (PHB. pg. 203). That sounds like whispering isn't an option.
Sorcerors have to spend points in order to make there spells subtle. So again, whispering isn't an option for most classes.
Finally, I'd worry that letting a player sneak around casting spells every round would break the system.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

It may not specifically mention casting a spell, but most of us can agree that Heat Metal is an attack spell. For those who do not agree, my argument is that it causes damage, and damage is an aggressive action. You choose to make an aggressive action (casting the spell), thus making it an attack.

So by process of elimination casting the spell Heat metal was an attack, thus it broke stealth.



Heat Metal does not require an attack role, therefore it is not a "Spell Attack." You are not using your action to make a spell attack role with your spell attack modifier, you're using your action to just cast a spell. Then the opponent can role a saving throw.

So if stealth is broken by making an attack I'd say that something like Firebolt would break it for sure (especially since they see where the fire comes from even if they don't see you). But casting something like Heat Metal wouldn't necessarily break stealth, especially if you're a long ways away and hidden in a bush or tree or something. You can potentially see the enemy and be in full cover at the same time.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Something to consider, Heat Metal requires line of site to the target. That sounds to me as though that at least the initial casting on the target is obvious and apparent.

Regardless, as a DM, I'd have the spell break stealth like most other actions.


Verbal requires a "particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance" (PHB. pg. 203). That sounds like whispering isn't an option.
Sorcerors have to spend points in order to make there spells subtle. So again, whispering isn't an option for most classes.
Finally, I'd worry that letting a player sneak around casting spells every round would break the system.


1. You can have line of sight and be in full cover (this is easy to do in many situations).
2. The PHB rule you quoted says nothing about the amplitude of your voice, as stated above. Your pitch and resonance can indeed be the same in a whisper and in a loud shout.
3. The subtle spells can be cast WITHOUT verbal or somatic components. This means you can cast fireball at someone 20 ft from you and they have no idea where it came from. You could not do that by whispering the verbal components of fireball. So this is still clearly more powerful for the Sorcerer than for another player trying to go unnoticed.
4. That's fine, and you may be right. But there's nothing in the RAW so far that definitively prevents the OP from remaining stealthed by casting THIS specific spell in THIS specific situation.

[DMThac0]

Heat Metal does not require an attack role, therefore it is not a "Spell Attack." You are not using your action to make a spell attack role with your spell attack modifier, you're using your action to just cast a spell. Then the opponent can role a saving throw.

So if stealth is broken by making an attack I'd say that something like Firebolt would break it for sure (especially since they see where the fire comes from even if they don't see you). But casting something like Heat Metal wouldn't necessarily break stealth, especially if you're a long ways away and hidden in a bush or tree or something. You can potentially see the enemy and be in full cover at the same time.

I'll give you half the argument, no attack roll, yea, I can get behind that.

However, I'm going to have to put a hard limit on the you can whisper to cast a spell. That pretty much negates the need for subtle spell. If I can whisper and have previously rolled a stealth to hide my presence and not break stealth...I'm going to abuse the heck out of that all the time. I'll give myself proficiency in stealth, find the nearest place to hide and start casting every spell I have every combat. My whispering won't give away my position, being hidden makes it so you can't see me wiggle my fingers, and I can pull out all my spell components without being seen. I just became severely op as no one will ever know who's hitting them from where and I can rain down death all day. All I need to do is make sure my spells don't have an attack roll.

[TheFryingPen]

Since being hidden requires you to be "unheard", and verbal components can be heard, verbal components means you can't be hidden.

Again, please cite something that indicates that verbal components automatically negate hiding. The PHB only states "if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position." (PHB 177). So RAW, only a loud noise makes creatures automatically notice you. There's nothing saying verbal components need to be this loud.

RAW (not 100% sure how credible a DM Screen is but it is a resource released by WotC so I guess it doesn't get much more official), verbal components can be heard, but only a given distance. Normal noise level (which I think is appropriate for normal speech and casting) is audible 2d6x10 feet, "Trying to be quiet" noise level is audible 2d6x5 feet. So I'd take these numbers from the DM screen Reincarnated as default for a "normal" situations and normal enemies. This means if you allow for "lower than normal speak"-casting (and take the "trying to be quiet" number for it) anyone more than 60 feet away won't ever notice it, if you go by normal voice level, creatures beyond 120 feet won't notice you due to your spells' verbal components (these are the worst cases).

So probably the most RAW way of dealing with hiding + verbal components is rolling 2d6 x (5 or 10) and check if that number is higher than the distance to the nearest creature which might notice it. If it is, the cast is noticed, hide fails. If it isn't, hide stays intact (no audible sound to hear). I think incorporating stealth or spellcasting checks is much more flavorful though. Or enemies noticing "something" but having to look for the source of the sound. And strict RAW is not the best way to handle this since whether an (un)noticed verbal component is plausible or not depends so much on the situation.

All this is just about the casting aspect of a spell though - effects might still give away your position.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I'll give you half the argument, no attack roll, yea, I can get behind that.

However, I'm going to have to put a hard limit on the you can whisper to cast a spell. That pretty much negates the need for subtle spell. If I can whisper and have previously rolled a stealth to hide my presence and not break stealth...I'm going to abuse the heck out of that all the time. I'll give myself proficiency in stealth, find the nearest place to hide and start casting every spell I have every combat. My whispering won't give away my position, being hidden makes it so you can't see me wiggle my fingers, and I can pull out all my spell components without being seen. I just became severely op as no one will ever know who's hitting them from where and I can rain down death all day. All I need to do is make sure my spells don't have an attack roll.

I talked about the value of Subtle Spell in my post above. It's like people don't realize that arguably the biggest benefit of subtle spell is in RP situations. Being able to cast a spell while talking to a King or BBEG without them knowing you're casting one is potentially game breaking in and of itself. You can't do that by whispering, especially if there are somatic components.

Once again, whatever you want to rule is fine, but there's no rule to my knowledge that states you can't whisper your incantation when casting a verbal spell. Just "deciding you can't" as the DM is up to each individual, but there's nothing really solid to back that ruling. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it for your game though, just like you shouldn't make magic items incredibly rare in every game just because they're "supposed to be" in 5e.

[Spiritchaser]

I'll give you half the argument, no attack roll, yea, I can get behind that.

However, I'm going to have to put a hard limit on the you can whisper to cast a spell. That pretty much negates the need for subtle spell. If I can whisper and have previously rolled a stealth to hide my presence and not break stealth...I'm going to abuse the heck out of that all the time. I'll give myself proficiency in stealth, find the nearest place to hide and start casting every spell I have every combat. My whispering won't give away my position, being hidden makes it so you can't see me wiggle my fingers, and I can pull out all my spell components without being seen. I just became severely op as no one will ever know who's hitting them from where and I can rain down death all day. All I need to do is make sure my spells don't have an attack roll.

You could still slink around casting hypnotic Pattern or mental prison, psychic scream or thunderclap.

Probably others too.

[DMThac0]

You could still slink around casting hypnotic Pattern or mental prison, psychic scream or thunderclap.

Probably others too.

Then why have subtle spell?

[Tanarii]

Raw is it requires a verbal component. So it disrupts hiding exactly as much as correspondingly loud speaking it.

RAW is not clear in exactly how a verbal component corresponds to what volume of apeaking.

RAW is not clear at what distances various volumes of speaking disrupt hiding.

RAW is the DM makes a ruling when the rules do not exactly cover a situation. Although thats usually refered to as a 'ruling' instead of RAW. But its distinct from a house rule, which explicitly changes RAW.

So it was a DM ruling on a situation that other rules as writte do not exactly cover.

For a real world reference, talking sounds like a whisper at 30ft. Talking loudly at about 60ft, yelling at 90-120ft.

[Spiritchaser]

Then why have subtle spell?

Oh, perhaps you want to Cast fireball while you slink?

Or you want to cast suggestion with no one the wiser?

Or you want to win a duel with that abjurer?

Lots of good reasons, subtle is one of my two favourites...

But not all offensive spells have verbal components.

[Malifice]

Okay, this is a question about my previous campaign; I understand that the DM is god but they had painted this choice as a 5e rule rather than as their personal ruling so I'm curious.

I was playing a Bard in the last campaign and the party had set up an ambush for a group of orcs - there were 5 people in the party and the closest one to me was 20ft away and we all did very well on our stealth rolls. When the first orc got just within 60ft I cast "Heat Metal" on him.

At that point the DM ruled that my stealth was broken because of the somatic aspect of it; I asked if whispering would make a difference in the future and they said that somatic automatically breaks stealth.

I am just not sure how this works given the facts of the situation and that lots of somatic spells have long ranges; I could accept the orc now looking for whoever was trying to roast them but to have them automatically see my bard seems... off?

Thanks!

Your DM was wrong.

What should have happened was your declaration of casting triggers initiative. The orcs are all surprised on round one.

[ad_hoc]

The answer is what kind of fantasy subgenre you want your game to be.

If you want stealth wizards then have stealth casting.

If you want typical fantasy wizards who clearly and loudly pronounce their spells then don't.

I believe the default assumption in D&D is the latter but nothing is stopping you from playing as the former.

[Corpus]

Context context context...

Neither obvious nor apparent.
Perception is reality, what was your DM's perception of the situation vs yours? Did you ask, "Can I "X" ... without "Y" happening?

You need line of sight, there is a verbal component, attacking breaks stealth, Heat Meatal is an attack spell.

What is the context, a noisy market place and you are casting hidden from an alleyway, or a road through a quiet field and you are crouching behind short grass and shrubs? Two extremes.

This is a DM call in the end, right or wrong in your opinion. Should the DM have warned you and said, "casting any spell will break stealth", probably. Does s/he have to, no.

Learn from the experience, in the future ask your DM if "X" will cause "Y" and apply what you learn.

[Malifice]

You're casting Heat Metal (V, S, M) - an attack spell, while you and several other PCs are hidden from the enemy at a distance of 20'.

The correct course of action is:

1) The DM calls for initiative. All parties roll, the Orcs are surprised, and miss turn 1 and can only take reaction after turn 1 ends.
2) The parties resolve their turns on round 1 in initiative order (in this case only the PCs as the orcs are all surprised).
3) When your turn comes around you can cast your spell (or take any other action you want).
4) From round 2 the Orcs can act as normal.

[TheUser]

Audible Distance
Trying to be quiet 2d6 x 5 feet

Normal noise level 2d6 x 10 feet

Very loud 2d6 x 50 feet


As stated, spells have specific tone and resonance but not amplitude- However!
I want you to try and whisper something without changing your tone or resonance (hint: it's impossible due to the constraints of vocal chords).




Sources: PHB.228 SRD.131 Tags: paladin (redemption) sorcerer warlock wizard level3 abjuration
3rd-level abjuration

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell.

Range: 60 feet

Components: S

Duration: Instantaneous

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used.

This spell is incompatible with distant spell metamagic ironically because the limitations on range are re-iterated in the casting time.

Notice 60 ft is given (strangely close to the average from the DM screen of 2d6x10) on a limitation that you can "see" the caster. Real people don't have a 360 degree field of vision but the mechanics of the game effectively allow players to counterspell as though they do. How do we explain this narratively if not for hearing? It is assumed that within 60ft., even in a heated battle, people's ears are trained well enough to pick up on incantations of arcane power.

Narratively, thematically and from a balance perspective (sorcerers have to invest character building options and resources to cast silently), it makes perfect sense that a hidden char reveals their position as far as 60ft away, even in a full blown fight when verbal spell componenfs are invoked.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

You need line of sight, there is a verbal component, attacking breaks stealth, Heat Meatal is an attack spell.



You're casting Heat Metal (V, S, M) - an attack spell, while you and several other PCs are hidden from the enemy at a distance of 20'.

To be clear: Heat Metal is not an attack spell. There is no Spell Attack Roll. I'm not saying either of you are wrong anything you've said except that it's not an attack. It's a spell that requires a saving throw and may or may not set off initiative. For instance, if you could remain hidden and cast it, initiative proper might not begin until the party fully engages or the enemy discovers where they're hiding.

[Tanarii]

To be clear: Heat Metal is not an attack spell. There is no Spell Attack Roll. I'm not saying either of you are wrong anything you've said except that it's not an attack. It's a spell that requires a saving throw and may or may not set off initiative. For instance, if you could remain hidden and cast it, initiative proper might not begin until the party fully engages or the enemy discovers where they're hiding.
Declaring that your PC is taking any hostile action should be enough to "set off" initiative immediately.

In this case, it's questionable if stealth rolls should even result in staying hidden. PCs attempt to ambush, one or some PCs attempt to initiate hostile action: result should be that DM uses Stealth vs Passive Perception to determine surprise (not hiding), then calls for initiative rolls. Whether or not PCs start ambushes hidden, when they pulled off the successful attempted ambush due to trying to be hidden, is not clear in the RAW. What is clear is in an attempted ambush situation, you check for surprise, then roll initiative.

If the DM does make a ruling to allow the PCs to start off the first round or an attempted ambush hidden, then you can worry about their ruling on if a V & S component spell will allow a PC to remain hidden. But they may rule that everyone came out of hiding to kick off the ambush, which is then resolved (per the rules) with possible surprise and in initiative order. (In other words, an unsurprising Orc might win initiative and attack before the PC can finish casting Heat Metal in the first place.)

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Declaring that your PC is taking any hostile action should be enough to "set off" initiative immediately.

In this case, it's questionable if stealth rolls should even result in staying hidden. PCs attempt to ambush, one or some PCs attempt to initiate hostile action: result should be that DM uses Stealth vs Passive Perception to determine surprise (not hiding), then calls for initiative rolls. Whether or not PCs start ambushes hidden, when they pulled off the successful attempted ambush due to trying to be hidden, is not clear in the RAW. What is clear is in an attempted ambush situation, you check for surprise, then roll initiative.

If the DM does make a ruling to allow the PCs to start off the first round or an attempted ambush hidden, then you can worry about their ruling on if a V & S component spell will allow a PC to remain hidden. But they may rule that everyone came out of hiding to kick off the ambush, which is then resolved (per the rules) with possible surprise and in initiative order. (In other words, an unsurprising Orc might win initiative and attack before the PC can finish casting Heat Metal in the first place.)

I'm just saying that it's not an "Attack Spell." That means it can be cast without setting off initiative, though it might trigger it.

Additionally, what if you Subtle Spell a metal goblet in the hand of the king, whom you are speaking to. He could take a significant amount of damage and drop the goblet and not know to attack you. So initiative really shouldn't start if the party doesn't do anything else. So if you CAN remain hidden and cast this spell, then initiative might not start if the rest of the party decides not to act immediately. If you're 60 ft away in the bushes, how will the Orcs know where the spell came from or what they're looking for? At the very least they'd need to spend time looking for signs of movement or something amiss.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm just saying that it's not an "Attack Spell." That means it can be cast without setting off initiative, though it might trigger it.

Additionally, what if you Subtle Spell a metal goblet in the hand of the king, whom you are speaking to. He could take a significant amount of damage and drop the goblet and not know to attack you. So initiative really shouldn't start if the party doesn't do anything else. So if you CAN remain hidden and cast this spell, then initiative might not start if the rest of the party decides not to act immediately. If you're 60 ft away in the bushes, how will the Orcs know where the spell came from or what they're looking for? At the very least they'd need to spend time looking for signs of movement or something amiss.

Initiative (for me) starts the instant any character declares an intent cause direct harm to another character. Hostile spells, whether saves or attacks, certainly qualify. The definition of "harm" varies slightly, but HP damage is always within that definition. I generally go with "could this declared intention be the proximate cause of the loss of a character (even in principle)?" Then it probably deserves initiative.

The only exception is for things that are no question--a level 20 character vs a lone goblin, for example. And that's only out of convenience rather than some mandate.

Attempts to circumvent initiative are almost always munchkinry and an attempt to stack the deck. As soon as you say "I cast heat metal", everything rewinds just enough to allow rolling initiative and things progress in turn order from there.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Initiative (for me) starts the instant any character declares an intent cause direct harm to another character. Hostile spells, whether saves or attacks, certainly qualify. The definition of "harm" varies slightly, but HP damage is always within that definition. I generally go with "could this declared intention be the proximate cause of the loss of a character (even in principle)?" Then it probably deserves initiative.

The only exception is for things that are no question--a level 20 character vs a lone goblin, for example. And that's only out of convenience rather than some mandate.

Attempts to circumvent initiative are almost always munchkinry and an attempt to stack the deck. As soon as you say "I cast heat metal", everything rewinds just enough to allow rolling initiative and things progress in turn order from there.

That's fine in your games, but in the example with the king what would the purpose of initiative serve? The king takes his turn to look around curiously for what caused this and maybe makes some sort of check. There's no reason in many situations that he'd be able to have any confidence where it came from. The players take their turns to continue talking or eating with him, or maybe even ask what's wrong. Dinner continues? Initiative ends? So what was the point in that case?

This may be a personal preference, but I enjoy it when even if there's something that could trigger initiative, it might not always lead to a fight. It allows creative problem solving and creative tactics to approach a group of enemies. Maybe cast a spell to intimidate them and then try to negotiate to get your way instead of building your reputation as murder hobos. Just food for thought. And I'm genuinely interested in how you'd respond as a DM to something like that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This may be a personal preference, but I enjoy it when even if there's something that could trigger initiative, it might not always lead to a fight. It allows creative problem solving and creative tactics to approach a group of enemies. Maybe cast a spell to intimidate them and then try to negotiate to get your way instead of building your reputation as murder hobos. Just food for thought. And I'm genuinely interested in how you'd respond as a DM to something like that.

What's trying to be solved? If it's "hurt the king", then yes, you're in combat now. Even if they don't take combat actions, proper sequencing still matters. Otherwise you open huge loopholes for munchkins, like "he who shouts first wins". I would expect the king to instantly drop the cup even if he fails the save. So no damage.

And I've had players stop fighting and negotiate peace during combat. My players usually take the non-combat route. Doesn't stop initiative, just changes what they do in initiative order.

[Mjolnirbear]

In the Mulmaster AL adventures, where magic is very forbidden, you have the option of making a check to hide your spellcasting.

This would seem to imply that your magic *isn't* hidden automatically.

The PHB says that unless the spell has a visual effect, you might not know that you were the subject of a magical spell (unless the spell says otherwise, such as Friends).

These seem to imply a few things:

A spell with a visual effect will be noticed
A spell without a visual effect would not be noticed but the *casting* might be
A check can hide the act of casting your spell
And that if you are hidden, then casting a spell with a visual component will reveal you, and casting a spell without a visual component *might* reveal you.



My ruling:
Therefore if you are hidden, and you want to cast a spell, if it has a visual effect, it *will* reveal you. If it doesn't have a visual effect, I'll roll to see if someone noticed the casting, or the player can roll to try to hide the casting.

[Xetheral]

What's trying to be solved? If it's "hurt the king", then yes, you're in combat now. Even if they don't take combat actions, proper sequencing still matters. Otherwise you open huge loopholes for munchkins, like "he who shouts first wins".

If no one wants to take further combat actions, why does proper combat sequencing matter?


And I've had players stop fighting and negotiate peace during combat. My players usually take the non-combat route. Doesn't stop initiative, just changes what they do in initiative order.

If combat is over because everyone is talking, what's the advantage of staying in initiative?

[PhoenixPhyre]

If no one wants to take further combat actions, why does proper combat sequencing matter?



If combat is over because everyone is talking, what's the advantage of staying in initiative?

Because things can change quickly, and sequence is important.

[Tubben]

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/951893598043226112


If hidden, you stop being hidden if you make appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell), you make an attack, or you're spotted. If you cast a spell that involves none of those stoppers, you're still hidden. #DnD

[Xetheral]

Because things can change quickly, and sequence is important.

Can you elaborate please? I don't understand why you consider sequence to be important in these circumstances.