10/10 Caster/Caster vs 20 Caster

[mgshamster]

Let's compare and contrast two PCs. One is a level 20 of any of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, or warlock. The other is a 10/10 of any two of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, warlock.

How well would the two PCs compare in terms of playability, flexibility, and power? Are they fairly even overall? Does one significantly outmatch the other? Is one the obvious better choice or is there some real thinking involved when deciding which one to play?

My gut feeling is that the 20 is stronger in raw power, but the 10/10 is better in flexibility. They're both even in playability, which makes them fairly even overall. But I haven't done any serious analysis on it and I'm curious if my gut feeling is close to the truth or way off base.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Wouldn't an 11/9 split be better for the multiclass? That way you get 6th level spells from one of the classes.

I've never actually played a high level game, but those 9th level spells look extremely powerful... I can't really see any optimisation argument for a half-and-half MC over 20 levels in one class.

[Unoriginal]

Let's compare and contrast two PCs. One is a level 20 of any of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, or warlock. The other is a 10/10 of any two of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, warlock.

How well would the two PCs compare in terms of playability, flexibility, and power? Are they fairly even overall? Does one significantly outmatch the other? Is one the obvious better choice or is there some real thinking involved when deciding which one to play?

My gut feeling is that the 20 is stronger in raw power, but the 10/10 is better in flexibility. They're both even in playability, which makes them fairly even overall. But I haven't done any serious analysis on it and I'm curious if my gut feeling is close to the truth or way off base.

Well, strictly speaking, a 10/10 multiclass will never be able to do what a lvl 20 character can, in term of class capacities. And high-level challenges sometime are pretty tough to handle without high-level capacities.

Versatility can be great, but do you really want to face Pit Fiends and Ancient Dragons with your strongest spells being 5th level?

[Talionis]

I think the real advantage is if the 11th class level is in Warlock. You get a 3rd spell slot per short rest from Warlock. I think the way you recover Warlock spell slots, you get more casting per day this way and you'll see significant advantge in being the flexible caster.

The really high level spells are nice, but I agree you could have a lot of fun with a 11/9 Warlock/X(Caster). Tome Warlock could also have every ritual in his spell book, too.

[Davrix]

Your never going to match the raw power of a caster with 9th level spells up their sleeve. True polymorph, shapechange, Wish, Meteor can all be game changer spells with the single snap of your fingers.

That being said some classes can benefit from a 1 to 3 level dip while still retaining the raw power. For example the lv 20 wizard capstone isn't super great. So if you wanted to delay things and be super cheesy. Take your first lv in paladin just to have full plate and a shield with your staff. You will delay lv 9 spells by one level but that extra AC will go a long way. Or take 2 levels so you can smite with your wizard. :)

The other argument to be said is unless you know your going to 20 its not going to matter much and the versatility of a hybrid caster might be 90 percent better most of the time in your party. It really just depends on what your group needs or wants and what your characters story details and how you want to bring it to life.

[mgshamster]

Well, strictly speaking, a 10/10 multiclass will never be able to do what a lvl 20 character can, in term of class capacities. And high-level challenges sometime are pretty tough to handle without high-level capacities.

Versatility can be great, but do you really want to face Pit Fiends and Ancient Dragons with your strongest spells being 5th level?

So like every martial. ;)

But more seriously, remember that they still have 9th level spell slots. Which means 9th level fireballs followed by 8th level fireballs, etc... And even then, they have more spells memorized, twice as many cantrips, more class features, etc..

But even then, there's more to the game than which high level monster you'll face. And I suspect that the 10/10 will shine in these areas, because they simply have more spells available at any given moment.

An extreme version of this concept is the Cantrip Master - the PC who multiclasses to maximize the number of cantrips they'll have (25+ cantrips, I believe). Meaning that they have a ton of magic available outside the vancian system, and even within it have a ton of low level spells to upcast all the way to 9th level spell slots. They can still dish out an amazing amount of damage in combat, and are masters of versatility outside of combat. If the Cantrip Master can still be in the viable range, surely the 10/10 will be fairly competitive when compared to the pure 20.

[DireSickFish]

We had someone that would have done the 10/10 split but the game never got that high. They got to level 10 cleric, looked at all the cleric spells at 6+ and did not want any of that. so they started multi-classing wizard. They were still powerful at level 13, but IDK how hard they would have been outscaled.

[Phoenix042]

My gut feeling is that the 20 is stronger in raw power, but the 10/10 is better in flexibility. They're both even in playability, which makes them fairly even overall. But I haven't done any serious analysis on it and I'm curious if my gut feeling is close to the truth or way off base.

Mass suggestion. Programmed Illusion. Simulacrum. Teleport. Gate. Wish. Shapechange. Astral Projection.

The 20th level caster probably has MORE versatility, especially if that caster is a Wizard or a Cleric, with all those spells they never need to prepare until they know they'll need them that day.

And why would anyone do a 10/10 split? You should always do 9/11, or even better, 17/3 or 13/5/2.

A 17/3 sorcerer / warlock, or a 13 / 5 / 2 sorcerer, bard, warlock is an excellent build, and gets tons of resources for blasting, social encounters, and utility.

But 12 cantrips doesn't equal the versatility that comes from being able to cast wish.


I have a player character like this in one of my games; a Lore bard 5 / Warlock 2 / Dragon Sorcerer 6. His blasting power is insane, since he can assign hex to someone, then hit with a 6th level scorching ray and hit with 7 rays for 21d6 + cha damage, or an eldritch blast for 3d10 + 3d6 + 15 damage, or both if the target is already hexed at the start of the turn. His ability to manipulate exactly how his spells will work each round, and the interactions between them, is absolutely ludicrous. He has TONS of blasting power, social skill (including expertise in persuasion and lots of charm magic), plus he has bardic inspiration dice which let him use his reaction to hamper enemy attacks or pre-buff allies before a fight.

He's got a TON of usefulness, but he's the only spellcaster, and his party still travels everywhere overland (no teleporting everywhere), they can't travel between planes, they can't banish powerful foes, they can't summon earthquakes or create demiplanes, or resurrect long-dead NPC's for a quick chat whenever they want.

He's a lot more powerful than a 6th level sorcerer, but he isn't playing by different rules. A 13th level wizard would be.

[Citan]

Let's compare and contrast two PCs. One is a level 20 of any of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, or warlock. The other is a 10/10 of any two of the following: wizard, cleric, druid, sorc, warlock.

How well would the two PCs compare in terms of playability, flexibility, and power? Are they fairly even overall? Does one significantly outmatch the other? Is one the obvious better choice or is there some real thinking involved when deciding which one to play?

My gut feeling is that the 20 is stronger in raw power, but the 10/10 is better in flexibility. They're both even in playability, which makes them fairly even overall. But I haven't done any serious analysis on it and I'm curious if my gut feeling is close to the truth or way off base.
Hi!

I don't think there can be any serious opinion given unless you decide on which classes both ways, and set up some assumptions to share for everyone.

Because, for example, taking a theorycraft Sorcerer+Bard against a Wizard, the first will probably trump without too much effort the latter in flexibility and versatility. However, if we had to consider that the DM would allow Wizard to "craft his nest into the world" (aka giving loot spells, implementing the gradual rise in power of Wizard meaning in turn minions of all sorts to search for more spells), then Wizard would end as the king in both power and versatility. In such a case, even the top combo Druid / Cleric would feel threatened.

Your gut is probably true "in general" though, except maybe for the "Any two non-prepared casters" VS Druid (the best class for spell selection by far when DM inflluence has to be put out of consideration) or Cleric (when you consider the DM will have a liberal view of Divine Intervention).

[Aaron Underhand]

Put it this way...

Is 17/3 more powerful, and as flexible as 10/10

All the examples in my head say yes.

In that case the correct comparison is 17/3 vs 20


The next consideration is levelling - here is my 'stream of consciousness' take on this

Is 1/1 more powerful than 2? Usually

is 1/2 more powerful than 3? Not usually

Is 1/3 more powerful than 4? Usually

Is 1/4 more powerful than 5? Never

Is 1/5 more powerful than 6? Sometimes

and so on... taking the second level of the minor class is actually quite hard, except maybe for Warlock (agonising blast), or perhaps Divination of Evocation wizard. Once there warlock 3, Bard 3, Sorcerer 3 all open up great features, Cleric, Druid and Wizard give (potentially) all second level spells

[MaxWilson]

Well, strictly speaking, a 10/10 multiclass will never be able to do what a lvl 20 character can, in term of class capacities. And high-level challenges sometime are pretty tough to handle without high-level capacities.

Versatility can be great, but do you really want to face Pit Fiends and Ancient Dragons with your strongest spells being 5th level?

If you're part Shepherd Druid, sure, why not?

A Shepherd Druid 9/Warlock 11 may only have fifth-level spells available, but you can still spew out enormous quantities of magic weapon-equipped Giant Owls/whatnot (yes, yes, subject to DM adjudication and/or random tables for which animal spirits actually show up) and support them with (spell sniper'ed) Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear of Lethargy or whatever it's called. You'll be fine.


Is 1/4 more powerful than 5? Never

A bold claim. :)

A Fighter 1/Warlock 4 or Forge Cleric 1/Warlock 4 is arguably more powerful than a pure Warlock 5. You get better AC, same Eldritch Blast damage, slightly weaker spell slots, one less invocation, and either Con save proficiency (Fighter) or access to a new spell list (Forge Cleric).