How did you learn/teach to run?

[Garayin]

How did you learn that running from encounters was okay? DM's: How did you teach it?

I am doing my first homebrew campaign and my players have wandered into an area where the first two sections are doable at their level but after that they are more than likely to die. I don't want to pull punches but I do not want them to die just yet. I am hoping they piece together they should run. So what made it clear to you that you should run? How did you make it clear to your players beyond just slapping them for a gorillion damage? I assume fluffing up the language to sound even more threatening would help but I got a bad feeling they will just keep trying.

[hymer]

I mostly run sandbox campaigns, and I am very clear that the players can run into monsters they have no hope of defeating when the campaign begins. So I simply say it.
Once in a while they forget, and it usually goes badly for them. But that means they remember better next time. :smallsmile:

[Laserlight]

Show them a pic rather than tell them what the monster is. Preferably a pic they won't recognize. I showed my party a nekron wraith (which would have been Deadly but probably not a TPK) and they cast Banish and fled.

A good solid attack as the opener. When the death bat used Disintegrate for 3/4 of the barbarian's hp, that got their attention.

And you can use NPCs as redshirt. Merc Michelle handles orcs with aplomb, but then the boss multi attacks her for 27+29+36 and she's toast, good thing that wasn't a PC, eh?

[DMThac0]

I teach running from encounters using 2 different things, first is narrative and second is mechanical.

Narrative:
I use as many descriptive words as possible to implore my players to consider their choices. As many verbal/visual warnings as possible before they hit the point of no return. My most recent example:

I had 3 players hiding, they had heard a large creature coming toward them so they wanted to avoid being spotted. Prior to this moment, they had witnessed a huge, two headed humanoid creature, wielding a large club. I described the club as being almost as large as a tree trunk, with large bones protruding from it like spikes. I described that when it swung at some other creatures there was a spray of dirt and rock that rose up from the point of impact almost 3 feet into the air. As they hid from the creature I described the two heads arguing with each other, one wanting to beat up the creatures that had eluded them before, and the other wanting to eat the creatures it saw in this direction. As the two heads argued the group hiding bickered with each other as to whether they should engage this creature and try to defeat it. While they bickered I described the two heads arguing, and one hand reached out to grab a tree as the body started to walk the other direction. It seems as though the two heads directed different parts of the body at the moment. As the creature argued, it was pulling on the tree, the roots being pulled up out of the ground, the feet digging grooves into the ground. The group hiding, hearing all of this decided to, instead of engaging something that could rip trees out of the ground, cast a spell that would create an odor that would drive the creature away..and managed to succeed.

---

Mechanical: (this is purely home brew)

I created a house rule that split HP up into 2 pools.

Pool 1 = "Fighting Spirit"
- You increase your fighting spirit just like you would normally gain HP per level
- This pool depletes as you take damage, just like HP
- When you take damage this pool depletes first
- Even if damage would exceed the maximum of this pool it is simply reduce to 0 Fighting Spirit and the next pool starts (damage doesn't roll over)

Pool 2 = "Health"
- Increases with every ASI or/and first level of mult-class
- Is not touched until your Fighting Spirit hits 0
- When you are on this pool, any aggressive action is done at disadvantage
- When this pool hits 0 you begin death saving throws

That gives them a warning, this is dangerous, things have hit the fan, get the heck out of there! Yea they have a bit more HP in the end, but it's there to give them the chance to escape rather than just falling down dead. I am testing this approach, the players seem to enjoy it.

[JackPhoenix]

Mechanical: (this is purely home brew)

I created a house rule that split HP up into 2 pools.

Pool 1 = "Fighting Spirit"
- You increase your fighting spirit just like you would normally gain HP per level
- This pool depletes as you take damage, just like HP
- When you take damage this pool depletes first
- Even if damage would exceed the maximum of this pool it is simply reduce to 0 Fighting Spirit and the next pool starts (damage doesn't roll over)

Pool 2 = "Health"
- Increases with every ASI or/and first level of mult-class
- Is not touched until your Fighting Spirit hits 0
- When you are on this pool, any aggressive action is done at disadvantage
- When this pool hits 0 you begin death saving throws

That gives them a warning, this is dangerous, things have hit the fan, get the heck out of there! Yea they have a bit more HP in the end, but it's there to give them the chance to escape rather than just falling down dead. I am testing this approach, the players seem to enjoy it.

Bit off topic, but... does that mean that random commoner or level 1 character can tank a single attack from Tarrasque (or insert whatever insane damage attack you want) reliably? I'm pretty sure that fails the good ol' "bag of rats" test somehow.

[DMThac0]

Bit off topic, but... does that mean that random commoner or level 1 character can tank a single attack from Tarrasque (or insert whatever insane damage attack you want) reliably? I'm pretty sure that fails the good ol' "bag of rats" test somehow.

Nah, this is purely a "Hero trait" the players having a drive that is beyond the normal person, the thing which makes them a Hero. There is also a modicum of common sense that applies to this of course. If your total pool (Fighting Spirit and HP) is 24 and you take 56 points of damage...sorry but you're a sticky pile of red paste on the wall. However if you take 20 points of damage, it'll completely deplete your Fighting Spirit, and you'll know the next hit will drop you with no problem.

[JackPhoenix]

Nah, this is purely a "Hero trait" the players having a drive that is beyond the normal person, the thing which makes them a Hero. There is also a modicum of common sense that applies to this of course. If your total pool (Fighting Spirit and HP) is 24 and you take 56 points of damage...sorry but you're a sticky pile of red paste on the wall. However if you take 20 points of damage, it'll completely deplete your Fighting Spirit, and you'll know the next hit will drop you with no problem.

Fair enough. Seems a bit pointless to me, compared to just using normal hit points, but I can see it working for some other people.

[NecessaryWeevil]

We encountered an insane lich in Curse of Strahd. He casually hit us with a cantrip for heavy damage. We deduced that he was at least 10 levels above us and that engaging would be unwise.

[Tanarii]

I teach it by telling the players in a clear bolded warnin in my session 0 doc.

Then, because players suck at learnin that lesson, I kill them let them kill themselves a few times.

Tbh since I got my campaign off the ground I dont have to let players kill themselves nearly as often. In every session with newcomers yo my campaign, yheres usually a few players experienced with the more 'lethal if you're not reasonable cautious because theres no assumption you can win every fight' game that I run.

[MrStabby]

Some things are good at telegraphing a threat.

Extreme Size
Mounds of Corpses
Deadly Lair
Massive riches (someone would have taken those riches off them if they were an easy target)
Giving their Name (a cue for someone to make a History Check to see if they know the legends - also good for clues on how to defeat)

Most of all players are cautious if they have nearly died before.

I play with a group where 4 out of the 5 PCs have a form of healing so the probability of a character dying is not far off the probability of a TPK - even so players are pretty cautious.

[mgshamster]

I teach it by telling the players in a clear bolded warnin in my session 0 doc.

Then, because players suck at learnin that lesson, I kill them let them kill themselves a few times.

Tbh since I got my campaign off the ground I dont have to let players kill themselves nearly as often. In every session with newcomers yo my campaign, yheres usually a few players experienced with the more 'lethal if you're not reasonable cautious because theres no assumption you can win every fight' game that I run.

There are times when I wish you lived near me.

(Those "times" are pretty much "always," or at least every game night)

[Dyndrilliac]

When in doubt, I like to fall back on the Worf Effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

Let's say your group enters one of these super dangerous areas/dungeon floors. Almost immediately, they should see something relatively powerful like a higher-level (than the PCs) NPC or extraplanar creature getting its butt kicked by one of the natural denizens of the location. Have the NPC/creature barely survive, claw its way over to the PCs, and implore them to flee before they too are killed.

[Tanarii]

I forgot e other part of the question:
I learned playing a game of D&D BECMI during the 4e era with a DM who really knew how to run BECMI by the book and in the old school way. Fighting was a suckers game. Finding the best hidden loot without killing yourself in a trap was where the XP was.

I wouldn't want to play that kind of game every day. In fact, despite having some nostalgia for old school D&D in general and that game in particular, and using it to inspire my current game, I've come to the conclusion that overall they made the right decision with 5e to have the game set to 'really not that lethal'. It's easier to adjust the game for meat grinder lovers after fairly warning them how you've done it, than to scare off lots of players who just want a popcorn & dice rolling Orc hunt. And IMX there are far more of the latter than the former.

[Armored Walrus]

OP, if you're new, and your players are new, don't be afraid to just straight up tell them "Remember when we talked in Session 0 that some fights would be too hard and you might need to run away? That I would try to narratively give you some indications of this fact if you were about to fight something you couldn't handle? This is an encounter you should run from. I tried to indicate by these signs before you got here." Then move on with your adventure and discuss after the session whether they got it or if there's a better way.

After that, they'll need to pay attention.

[Armored Walrus]

I don't want to pull punches but I do not want them to die just yet.

It doesn't get easier to kill them after they've played their characters longer, by the way. Either they really are on board with the style of game you are running, and will learn from the death, or they aren't and you'll have to adjust your game.

As far as how I learned to run - by dying, really. PCs don't like to run, generally, and are generally really, really bad at figuring out when they should.

[mephnick]

Other good advice aside, first and foremost, if you want to teach them running is an option you need to allow it to work. RAW there isn't much chance of escaping a deadly encounter. Monsters are generally faster than players and any ranged attack will eat fleeing characters for lunch. Players are woefully unwilling to run away until it is WAY too late, so you have to take it easy on them if they ever do decide to run or you'll retrain them to fight to the death.

[Ganymede]

A Finger of Death followed by overlapping fireballs was enough to convince my players to retreat from the Amber Temple and come back when they were stronger.

They did monumentally well, though. All but one escaped, with the straggler falling mere feet from the exit.

[Garayin]

Thanks guys. I am running the next session ok n Saturday and I will run as is and hope they run. Or I guess they die and learn for the future

[Vessyra]

If I'm not to late... what I do I give the monster big damage, but it uses poor tactics. So instead of focusing all of it's damage on the squishy wizard until it drops, it instead splits up the damage among two or three high-health party members. That way, you show the players that it can deal huge damage without running the risk of killing them.

[2D8HP]

I teach it by telling the players in a clear bolded warnin...


There are times when I wish you lived near me.

(Those "times" are pretty much "always," or at least every game night)


So true.

I'd like to game with both of you.

Anyway, thread topic:

I'm not sure it can be taught.

I played in a lot of "meat grinders" in the TSR era, and I was a particularly incautious player:
IIRC-
The scene:
A dank almost crypt like basement/garage during the waning years of the Carter Administration, two pre-teens and some teenagers surround a ping pong table, that has books, papers, dice, pizza and sodas on it

Teen DM (my best friend's older brother): You turn the corner, and 20' away you see the door shown on the map.
Teen player (who thinks he's all that because he's been playing longer than me with the LBB's, but does he have the new PHB and DMG? No! So who's really the "Advanced" one huh!): With the lantern still tied to the ten foot pole, I slowly proceed forward observing if they are any drafts from unexpected places. You (looks at me) check the floor with the other pole.
Me: (pre-teen): Oh man it's late, are we even getting into the treasure room today!
Teen player: You've got to check for traps!
Me: I run up and force the door open!
DM: Blarg the fighter falls through the floor onto the spikes below.
*rolls dice*
Your character is dead.
Teen player: Dude you got smoked!
Me: Look at my next character. I rolled a 15 for Strength.
DM: Really?
Me: Yeah, Derek totally witnessed me rolling it up!
DM: Did he?
Derek (my best friend, another pre-teen who invited me to the game): Are you gonna eat that slice of pizza?
Me: No.
Derek: Yeah I totally saw it.
*munch*
Me: See!
DM: *groan*

:wink:

In memory of my best friend, Derek Lindstrom Whaley, who in 6th grade saw me reading the blue book and invited me to play D&D at his house - R.I.P.
Now I'm the cautious one, and urge retreat while other players say things like, "The DM wouldn't scale it so we'd lose."

Do our PC's know this?!

I'm pretty sure my PC has never heard of a CR!

*mumble, grumble, rant, rave, fume*

Thing is, the consequences (and lack of same) didn't (and haven't) changed how I want to play.

I would have loved a "combat as sport" style way back, and Il play as-if it's "combat as war" now, which I crave.

From the other side of the screen?

Well I did substitute Top Secret with Call of C'thullu, but nah I never stopped my players from wanting PC's with guns instead of swords, so no success.

:sigh: