Kensei question...

[samcifer]

For the Kensei Agile Parry ability, it reads:

"Agile Parry. If you make an unarmed strike as part of
the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei
weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee
weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of
your next turn, while the weapon is in your hand and
you aren't incapacitated."

Does the Flurry of Blows or extra attack granted by Martial Arts count for triggering this, or only the attack made during the standard action?

[strangebloke]

nope.

You need to make one attack with something other than your kensei weapon as part of your attack action, while holding your kensei weapon.

[MeeposFire]

Sadly by RAW it does not since it specifies that it must be part of the attack action. Flurry independent on the attack action but is not part of the attack action so those unarmed strikes do not count.

I do not remember fully but I think in a previous version it did work but I do not think it said attack action back then I think that was added to the most recent version but I Could be remembering.

[Tanarii]

It's almost certainly intentional that you have to make an unarmed attack in place of a weapon attack in one of your attacks of the attack action. Most Kensai are likely to use a martial melee weapon that does more damage than an unarmed attack, even for a monk. And of course getting any magic weapon benefits on melee weapon attacks. So it's a damage sacrafice for a bonus to AC. That's the tradeoff that makes it necessary to think about if you want to use it.

[Naanomi]

Ironically, it means most ‘weapon master’ monks are only making one weapon attack a round

I was hoping an opposite... one where they could flurry with their weapon for example

[MeeposFire]

Sadly by RAW it does not since it specifies that it must be part of the attack action. Flurry independent on the attack action but is not part of the attack action so those unarmed strikes do not count.

I do not remember fully but I think in a previous version it did work but I do not think it said attack action back then I think that was added to the most recent version but I Could be remembering.

I just checked and it required an attack action before so it was just bad readings on a lot of peoples parts back then.

[DivisibleByZero]

The idea is that you can't be on full-on-offense when using this defensive ability. You need to save the weapon at least a little bit to parry. You trade attacking with your weapon for one of your attacks and instead use it defensively, attacking with your unarmed strike that time instead.
That's the idea.
You can use just the weapon to attack and (usually) increase your damage. Or you can use your unarmed strike (or a combination of the two) to attack and your weapon mastery to defend.

I can absolutely see the complaints about it, but I can also appreciate the legitimate reasoning behind it being worded as it is.

[samcifer]

Yeah, but still sucks. Beginning to consider Sun Soul instead as I like the ranged and AoE options that subclass grants, which most melee classes and subclasses do not.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, but still sucks. Beginning to consider Sun Soul instead as I like the ranged and AoE options that subclass grants, which most melee classes and subclasses do not.
It sucks that the abilit isn't just "You get +2 to your AC."?

[samcifer]

It sucks that the abilit isn't just "You get +2 to your AC."?

Well we have to roll for stats in this campaign and I have the habit of rolling low most of the time I roll dice. Since minks have the hardest time getting decent ac (it feels) any boost I can get is helpful, but sacrificing damage... :/

[Mortis_Elrod]

Kensei make great use of longbows if you want range.

But if your worried about bad rolls then I’d suggest a different class after you make your rolls.

[samcifer]

Kensei make great use of longbows if you want range.

But if your worried about bad rolls then I’d suggest a different class after you make your rolls.

Yeah. I really want to play a monk, but if the rolls are garbage, I might need to mix in 6 levels of Fighter to compensate (Battlemaster for more attack options) with a third ASI or go with Swashbuckler instead. With a full rogue and a rogue and a Gloomstalker/Scout already in the party, that'd be too many rogues IMO. I COULD go with a Totem Barbarian/Battlemaster as there are no fighters or barbarians in the party.

Some of the ideas I'm tossing around the most are:

Barbarian/Monk

Monk/Rogue or Monk/Fighter (I'd start with armor and settle for less movement in exchange for higher AC until I get enough ASIs to hit 20/20 on DEX and WIS)

Fighter/Rogue

Fighter would be BM regardless for the extra effects I can get while attacking, Rogue would be Swashbuckler (best chances to get my Sneak attack dmg without using my bonus action each turn) and for Monk, leaning towards Kensei or Sun Soul.

I know I keep changing my mind on stuff, but that's due to having little free time to research properly and trying to find what I like best vs. what will work best for me.

[strangebloke]

Kensei make great use of longbows if you want range.

But if your worried about bad rolls then I’d suggest a different class after you make your rolls.

Going to second this, although I guess I'd ask to see your stats... if you have at least one 16, or a 14 and a 15, you can make it work. Basically so long as you can start with 15-16 AC, you'll probably be fine.

Fun note, though! At low levels kensei make great skirmishers. Pick whip as one of your weapons, dance into ten foot reach, attack, and then use your super high speed to get out of reach. Basically you get the best parts of the Mobile feat without actually taking the mobile feat, which puts you an ASI ahead of your peers.

Kensei also make pretty good (although not crazy good) archers, especially with a 1-2 level fighter dip.

So, door 1,

Balanced Skirmisher:

Wood Elf Monk, path of the Kensei, levels 1-20.
Level 3 kensei weapons: whip and longsword.
Level 4 boost whatever ups your AC the most. Maybe take Elven Accuracy if your Wisdom is even and your Dexterity is odd.
Level 6 pick up longbow as a weapon. Congrats, you're now effective at range.
Level 8 boost Dexterity.
Level 9-20 you're pretty much 'complete.' You'll have good AC, good saves, and you'll hit pretty hard when you want to.

Pretty much a standard monk with the mobile feat in terms of playstyle. On turns where you don't want to commit to combat in a big way, you can run in, snap off a shot or two with the whip, and run back. You can stun people with the whip without ever entering their threatened area.

If you want to tank, you can run in, hit once with your longsword and once with your fist and use patient defense to have insane AC (and advantage on dex saves)

If you want to DPR, you can run in, hit twice with a longsword, and then flurry. Deft strike is kinda bad unless you know that you have a short rest coming up, or if you can put in onto a crit where it will be doubled. 1d10 for 1 ki is kinda bad, 2d10 is less bad. As you get higher in levels, the 'DPR' strategy will become better and better.

You can also hit at range, and in encounters where you can't engage (a dragon is strafing you) you will probably lean on your kensei shot and deft strike to keep you relevant. You'll never be a ranger or a fighter, but you'll be more dangerous at range than anyone else who didn't specialize.

Door 2:

Archer
Variant Human(sharpshooter) Fighter 1, Monk 19

Start in fighter, pick up the archery fighting style, pick up longbow as a kensei weapon, and never look back. You can still run in and beat people up and/or stun them if the mood takes you; you're only a level behind the other build, after all. You can keep up with the best archer builds in the game at range.

[samcifer]

Going to second this, although I guess I'd ask to see your stats... if you have at least one 16, or a 14 and a 15, you can make it work. Basically so long as you can start with 15-16 AC, you'll probably be fine.

Fun note, though! At low levels kensei make great skirmishers. Pick whip as one of your weapons, dance into ten foot reach, attack, and then use your super high speed to get out of reach. Basically you get the best parts of the Mobile feat without actually taking the mobile feat, which puts you an ASI ahead of your peers.

Kensei also make pretty good (although not crazy good) archers, especially with a 1-2 level fighter dip.

So, door 1,

Balanced Skirmisher:

Wood Elf Monk, path of the Kensei, levels 1-20.
Level 3 kensei weapons: whip and longsword.
Level 4 boost whatever ups your AC the most. Maybe take Elven Accuracy if your Wisdom is even and your Dexterity is odd.
Level 6 pick up longbow as a weapon. Congrats, you're now effective at range.
Level 8 boost Dexterity.
Level 9-20 you're pretty much 'complete.' You'll have good AC, good saves, and you'll hit pretty hard when you want to.

Pretty much a standard monk with the mobile feat in terms of playstyle. On turns where you don't want to commit to combat in a big way, you can run in, snap off a shot or two with the whip, and run back. You can stun people with the whip without ever entering their threatened area.

If you want to tank, you can run in, hit once with your longsword and once with your fist and use patient defense to have insane AC (and advantage on dex saves)

If you want to DPR, you can run in, hit twice with a longsword, and then flurry. Deft strike is kinda bad unless you know that you have a short rest coming up, or if you can put in onto a crit where it will be doubled. 1d10 for 1 ki is kinda bad, 2d10 is less bad. As you get higher in levels, the 'DPR' strategy will become better and better.

You can also hit at range, and in encounters where you can't engage (a dragon is strafing you) you will probably lean on your kensei shot and deft strike to keep you relevant. You'll never be a ranger or a fighter, but you'll be more dangerous at range than anyone else who didn't specialize.

Door 2:

Archer
Variant Human(sharpshooter) Fighter 1, Monk 19

Start in fighter, pick up the archery fighting style, pick up longbow as a kensei weapon, and never look back. You can still run in and beat people up and/or stun them if the mood takes you; you're only a level behind the other build, after all. You can keep up with the best archer builds in the game at range.

I'm leaning towards Tabaxi for race. They get +2 DEX to start with. If I can at least get a 16 and maybe a 14 for my high stats, I'd be okay.

[Sception]

It sucks that the abilit isn't just "You get +2 to your AC."?

More "it sucks because the subclass you play because you love weapons so much hinges what is, for most of your progression, it's strongest feature on using those weapons less". It's not unbalanced, there's a perfectly justified reason for it mechanically, It just kinda feels unsatisfying for someone aiming for that supreme weapon master feel that is a big part of the kensei's identity.

[Platypusbill]

Level 3 kensei weapons: whip and longsword.


You can't choose two melee weapons at lvl 3; one needs to be a ranged weapon and one needs to be a melee weapon.

[samcifer]

You can't choose two melee weapons at lvl 3; one needs to be a ranged weapon and one needs to be a melee weapon.

Yeah. I'd go Longsword and Longbow, then get the Sharpshooter feat later on once DEX and WIS are maxed out.

The more I think on it, the more I'm liking the idea of a Barbarian/Monk character. Making it work is another thing though, esp. with rolling for stats.

[samcifer]

More "it sucks because the subclass you play because you love weapons so much hinges what is, for most of your progression, it's strongest feature on using those weapons less". It's not unbalanced, there's a perfectly justified reason for it mechanically, It just kinda feels unsatisfying for someone aiming for that supreme weapon master feel that is a big part of the kensei's identity.

Exactly. "Pick these two awesome weapons and use them for everything. Oh, just don't use them half the time, though." "Wait, what!?"

[GlenSmash!]

Ironically, it means most ‘weapon master’ monks are only making one weapon attack a round

I was hoping an opposite... one where they could flurry with their weapon for example

More "it sucks because the subclass you play because you love weapons so much hinges what is, for most of your progression, it's strongest feature on using those weapons less". It's not unbalanced, there's a perfectly justified reason for it mechanically, It just kinda feels unsatisfying for someone aiming for that supreme weapon master feel that is a big part of the kensei's identity.


Exactly. "Pick these two awesome weapons and use them for everything. Oh, just don't use them half the time, though." "Wait, what!?"

It's bugged me too. So much that I prefer refluffing a Barbarian for a Unarmoured Single Sword weilding wanderer than the Kensei.

[samcifer]

It's bugged me too. So much that I prefer refluffing a Barbarian for a Unarmoured Single Sword weilding wanderer than the Kensei.

Yeah. Makes me tempted to either take a feat for Mage Armor or Dragonborn with the Feat from XGtE that gives the Mage Armor effect and focus on strength for attacking, then boost DEX to max and swap off on my attack stat.

[Tanarii]

More "it sucks because the subclass you play because you love weapons so much hinges what is, for most of your progression, it's strongest feature on using those weapons less". It's not unbalanced, there's a perfectly justified reason for it mechanically, It just kinda feels unsatisfying for someone aiming for that supreme weapon master feel that is a big part of the kensei's identity.
Make it a bonus action instead?
Edit: This means it replaces your extra unarmed attack. Still offense for defense, it's just an unarmed for defense instead of weapon attack for defense.

[samcifer]

Make it a bonus action instead?
Edit: This means it replaces your extra unarmed attack. Still offense for defense, it's just an unarmed for defense instead of weapon attack for defense.

Or make it apply to any attack but cost a Ki point to activate

[strangebloke]

I'd say, keep it as-is, but let it trigger off of any unarmed attack.

I don't like using it as a bonus action because then it can't stack with dodge, which is, to some extent, the point of the feature.

Letting it trigger off of anything means that you'll get the AC whenever you want it, but that if you want to push things through the roof you'll have to take a step back. Regardless, it's only 2-3 damage at the levels people play at. More, with magic weapons and sharpen, but still nothing crazy.

[Sception]

Make it a bonus action instead?
Edit: This means it replaces your extra unarmed attack. Still offense for defense, it's just an unarmed for defense instead of weapon attack for defense.

I mean, as it is it works fine, mechanically, but it just completely doesn't do what I or some others want it to do. If you wanted to fix it, that's not a situation that calls for tweaks, that's a situation that calls for starting over from scratch.

If you were looking for a flat head screwdriver but accidentally grabbed a phillips head, then what you should do is put the phillips head away and go get the screwdriver you actually needed. Like, maybe you could clip off opposite sides of the phillips head, or carve some extra notches in your screw, in order to force it to fit, but what you got is the wrong tool and you should get the right one instead.

If you're going to homebrew a fix, then this particular feature, imo, is just the wrong feature for the kensei. keep it around to give it to someone else maybe, but in the mean time start over with something new.

[Malifice]

On your turn make a choice. Higher damage dice or bonus to AC.

[Pharaon]

Exactly. "Pick these two awesome weapons and use them for everything. Oh, just don't use them half the time, though." "Wait, what!?"

You aren't choosing to not use your weapon in exchange for AC, you are choosing between using your weapon offensively and defensively.

[DivisibleByZero]

On your turn make a choice. Higher damage dice or bonus to AC.

On your turn make a choice.
-- Higher damage dice on two (of your potential 2/3/4) attacks
OR
-- Higher damage dice on zero (of your potential 1/2/3) attacks, [or on one (of your potential 2/3/4) attacks, depending on your level] and a bonus to AC, which is a choice that no other class has available.

You can choose to take a tiny, insignificant (usually 1 or 2 points), eventually nonexistent decrease of damage to a single attack and exchange that for a bonus to AC for an entire round, resourse free, and at will.
Seriously, you have the option to trade 0/1/2 points of damage per round to gain +2 AC for the round.
I know, what a terrible choice.

Some people call it a trap. I think you're an idiot if you don't use it.
They give you an ability that's so good you're an idiot if you don't use it, and people still complain (and not even about the power level of it...).

[samcifer]

On your turn make a choice.
-- Higher damage dice on two (of your potential 2/3/4) attacks
OR
-- Higher damage dice on zero (of your potential 1/2/3) attacks, [or on one (of your potential 2/3/4) attacks, depending on your level] and a bonus to AC, which is a choice that no other class has available.

You can choose to take a tiny, insignificant (usually 1 or 2 points), eventually nonexistent decrease of damage to a single attack and exchange that for a bonus to AC for an entire round, resourse free, and at will.
Seriously, you have the option to trade 0/1/2 points of damage per round to gain +2 AC for the round.
I know, what a terrible choice.
Some people call it a trap. I think you're an idiot if you don't use it.

*sulkingly* Well when you have to be all reasonable and fair by describing it in a way that makes sense... :D

[Naanomi]

Magic weapons can skew that math...

But again... why make us unarmed attack at all when the damage difference is negligible or (later) nonexistent? Why make a weapons master class avoid its schtick (of ‘using a weapon’) at all?

[Malifice]

Magic weapons can skew that math...

But again... why make us unarmed attack at all when the damage difference is negligible or (later) nonexistent? Why make a weapons master class avoid its schtick (of ‘using a weapon’) at all?

You are using it. To parry. If you dont want to parry then feel free to swing it.

From 5th level you can do both.

[DivisibleByZero]

You are using it. To parry. If you dont want to parry then feel free to swing it.

From 5th level you can do both.

Exactly.
And that's to say nothing of the fact that you can fluff it however you want. Go ahead and say you're swinging your sword the entire time. Nothing changes except your damage type/roll.
People just love to make mountains out of mole hills.

[Naanomi]

As stated before, I would rather my ‘master of this weapon’ never have to not be using that weapon at all... I’d want to in fact be encouraged to use it... replacing my MA and Flurry attacks with ‘moar weapon use!’ for example, and definetly not tying a core ability to not using my weapon when I could be using it

Most fictional characters I would model as Kensai (fast, unarmored, somewhat mystical weapon users) would rarely, if ever, be kicking/punching at all. Why make a mole hill in the first place when it doesn’t need to be there?

[Malifice]

As stated before, I would rather my ‘master of this weapon’ never have to not be using that weapon at all... I’d want to in fact be encouraged to use it... replacing my MA and Flurry attacks with ‘moar weapon use!’ for example, and definetly not tying a core ability to not using my weapon when I could be using it

Most fictional characters I would model as Kensai (fast, unarmored, somewhat mystical weapon users) would rarely, if ever, be kicking/punching at all. Why make a mole hill in the first place when it doesn’t need to be there?

We have a class for that. Its called the fighter.

[JNAProductions]

Barbarian probably works better.

Fast? They get fast movement.
Unarmored? They get that.
Somewhat mystical? They get a handful of rituals, or ancestral guardians, or all sorts of wacky things.

[Naanomi]

So, if not the Rurouni Kenshin type character... unarmored, melee weapons, fights with precision and masterful technique... who should I be envisioning as an archetypical Kensei?

[Mortis_Elrod]

So, if not the Rurouni Kenshin type character... unarmored, melee weapons, fights with precision and masterful technique... who should I be envisioning as an archetypical Kensei?

isnt that man a samurai?

[strangebloke]

isnt that man a samurai?

1st of all, not really.

2nd of all, he is a kensei.

3rd of all, those terms are not at all mutually exclusive.

4th of all, in dnd tradition kensei don't necessarily use weapons at all. In fact a large point of the monk PRC was to be able to enchant your fists.

[Tanarii]

4th of all, in dnd tradition kensei don't necessarily use weapons at all. In fact a large point of the monk PRC was to be able to enchant your fists.
In D&D tradition, ie Oriental Adventures they were fairly dexterous unarmored warriors whose AC improved with higher Dex but mostly level, who were also masters of a single weapon. They had to use Str for attacks, but that was par for the course back then.

IMO having Kensei as a Monk subclass that specializes in weapons was pretty insightful on the part of the Devs. It struck me as weird at first, because warriors. But it fits well enough.

[MeeposFire]

In D&D tradition, ie Oriental Adventures they were fairly dexterous unarmored warriors whose AC improved with higher Dex but mostly level, who were also masters of a single weapon. They had to use Str for attacks, but that was par for the course back then.

IMO having Kensei as a Monk subclass that specializes in weapons was pretty insightful on the part of the Devs. It struck me as weird at first, because warriors. But it fits well enough.

Also that Oriental Adventures Kensei could also choose a martial art to be really good at back then too so using fists was definitly a thing back then for them. Oh that Kensei the way they derive its AC was weird. Not hard but just so different from everything else but that was how `1e kind of did things.

[Naanomi]

In 5e, being a ‘official samuraii’ means wearing armor (unless you multiclass); which doesn’t fit Kenshin (nor the other similar characters that spring to mind)

[GlenSmash!]

Most fictional characters I would model as Kensai (fast, unarmored, somewhat mystical weapon users) would rarely, if ever, be kicking/punching at all. Why make a mole hill in the first place when it doesn’t need to be there?


We have a class for that. Its called the fighter.

Fighter's don't get an increase to movement speed or a form of Unarmored Defense.

If there was a fighter subclass that did it would make a great Kensei.

[Sahe]

This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhCHw0Ovqf4&) is what I envisioned first when I a) first read through the Monk Class and then Kensei specifically. But 5e absolutely fails to deliver in respects to weapon use.

[samcifer]

*sighs knowing people are going to hate him for asking...* What about Drunken Master instead? With Tabaxi and maybe the tabaxi feet that lets you use the double movement two times before needing to not move for a turn to regain the use(s) of it, I could begin a fight by hitting a foe two times, FoB, then walk away unharmed to go make a sandwich, leaving the foe to wonder what just happened.

I suppose the best AC of all is disengaging and moving farther away than they could reach by Dashing after me to hit me again.

[ad_hoc]

*sighs knowing people are going to hate him for asking...* What about Drunken Master instead? With Tabaxi and maybe the tabaxi feet that lets you use the double movement two times before needing to not move for a turn to regain the use(s) of it, I could begin a fight by hitting a foe two times, FoB, then walk away unharmed to go make a sandwich, leaving the foe to wonder what just happened.

I suppose the best AC of all is disengaging and moving farther away than they could reach by Dashing after me to hit me again.

D&D is not a 1 player game.

Enemy creatures still have attacks. You're just making it easier for them to hit the more vulnerable PCs.

[Malifice]

In 5e, being a ‘official samuraii’ means wearing armor (unless you multiclass); which doesn’t fit Kenshin (nor the other similar characters that spring to mind)

No it doesn't. Dont wear any.

[samcifer]

D&D is not a 1 player game.

Enemy creatures still have attacks. You're just making it easier for them to hit the more vulnerable PCs.

I'd be okay with making everyone a sandwich. What do you want on yours?

[ImproperJustice]

We have a Barbarian refluffed as a robe wielding samurai in out current game. It works great!

Just rename the animal totems as ancestor worship, and rage as “Zen Swordsmanship” and go from there.


Lastly, Kensai seems like the Sohei/Bushido Monks who heavily invest in weapon skill as part of their meditative and acrobatic fighting style. In their katas they trade blows with fist, feat, forearms, elbow, etc along with their weapon use. They also included the tradition of Zen Archery. I think the class still works fine flavor wise.