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Requilac
2018-05-31, 12:03 AM
Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable). I will also be holding discussions over what the next competition’s theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564749-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-Voting-Thread&p=23246678#post23246678

Former Competitions
Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

Morphic tide
2018-05-31, 02:35 AM
The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

The second is that 5e's mechanics make Intimidate setups (thus covering the literal fear side of the theme) a lot more difficult, as it has only one level of fear. Attaching riders to that condition, like the Fear spell does to get the effect previously gotten by Terrified (IIRC), does work, but loses a lot of mechanical elegance over 3.5.

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-05-31, 04:24 AM
The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

I did try to start one of those (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493510-5e-Homebrew-Contests-Chat-Thread) a couple of years ago actually, but there wasn't enough interest back then to sustain it. I could revive it now, maybe, but I don't want to step on any more toes than I already have.

Ivellius
2018-05-31, 02:29 PM
Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

...

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

Sssh...that's roughly one of my ideas if I participate this go-around. I'd wanted to get in on the last one but just didn't find time / got distracted with a different homebrew class one of my players is actually using.

That's not my only idea, mind, but it's been one I've wanted to implement for a long time and probably one of the ones I'd most like to do.

Requilac
2018-05-31, 08:52 PM
The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

I know. I just thought that it would be much better organized if I did it this way.



Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

Umm, I was aware of all that. Nothing is wrong about any of those ideas you just spoke of. They are all valid and could reinforce the theme. Was this comment directed at me or was it just food for thought for the other competitors?



The second is that 5e's mechanics make Intimidate setups (thus covering the literal fear side of the theme) a lot more difficult, as it has only one level of fear. Attaching riders to that condition, like the Fear spell does to get the effect previously gotten by Terrified (IIRC), does work, but loses a lot of mechanical elegance over 3.5.

Just to be clear, when I said "fear" i was referring to the emotion and not necessarily the condition.

WarrentheHero
2018-06-04, 04:16 PM
I haven't got anything completed yet, but I'm going to call dibs on "Phobiamancer", someone who harnesses their own past trauma to magically inflict fears on others. Its subclasses focus on specific phobias.

Requilac
2018-06-04, 10:21 PM
If any of you aren't feeling particularly creative, I could give some ideas. I have nearly a dozen possible concepts, and only one of which I will submit. You will learn what that is later. There is nothing wrong with asking for help.

MoleMage
2018-06-04, 10:35 PM
I knocked out the first outline of a Slasher-villain class last week while on vacation. I'll finish it...sometime.

Crim the Cold
2018-06-05, 08:43 AM
I really wanted to participate but the only ideas I have bouncing around are a knowledge skills based scholar type class which 5e doesn't support because no knowledge skills or a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

Requilac
2018-06-05, 09:56 PM
a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

That could easily be a horror themed class if you played it right. Shamans to me have always been associated with voodoo or witches, both of which have strong connections to fantasy horror. maybe you could link them to the hags or fey and give them some extra flavor. I even considered making a hag class based off the weird sisters from Macbeth for this competition. A shaman could easily fit in with the theme.

Ivellius
2018-06-05, 11:21 PM
I really wanted to participate but the only ideas I have bouncing around are a knowledge skills based scholar type class which 5e doesn't support because no knowledge skills or a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

Just to pile on, a "scholar" class could very easily be a Lovecraftian hero, someone who has eldritch knowledge about things people aren't supposed to know in general and uses that as a basis for adventuring.

Mourne
2018-06-09, 12:24 AM
I’ve made major edits to the sleepwalker. I mean, the crowds demanded it and who am I to stand in the way of the desires of the masses? :smallwink:

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Change "log" in the spoiler...


• Made the rider/condition portion of Dark Passenger feature equivalent to "half" of the frightened condition. My main question now... should I also make this interact with features and spells as if it were the frightened condition (i.e. "...for purposes of interacting with spells and feats, the creature is considered to frightened").
• Amalgamated Nightmares renamed Spellcasting. Moved to a more normal half caster model versus the weird 1/3rd caster "that’s not an archetype" sandwiched around Wizard archetype progression. It just didn’t work well, especially in setting up the origins as I envisioned them. Moved to 2nd level (from 3rd); removed features from the caster “bump” levels.
• Moved (and renamed) Unsleeping Vigil. Previously Unsleeping. Removed the resistance to psychic damage from the feature – too much frontloading in the features.
• Renamed and reworked the Primeval Fear Nightmare feature… was starting to get too cute with feature names rather than staying with the established conventions.
• Added Reflect Fear. Just wanted to squeeze this in and both the Paladin and Ranger have precedent of sharing ASI with a feature.
• Dread Revelation uses now based on Charisma for number of uses and has a range (oops!). Still bouncing between whether to use the bonus action or action… I know action makes more sense from an economy standpoint but bonus action feels right in relation to the overall power structure of the class.
• Dreaming Feast renamed Tormented Offering
• Darkest Corners renamed Sinister Insight, shifted to earlier level & tweaked.
• Added Night Terror. A minor “ribbon” feature that I just wanted to squeeze in -- more flavorful than useful.
• Reworked Nightmare Form and renamed as Darkest Dreams.
• Revised spell list (again)
• Added first Nightmare Origin (Nightmare of Darkness). My issue with the "origins" currently is that I’m not completely happy with the “capstone” (level 14). Originally wanted a conjure variant but felt feature placement was too close to Manifest Passenger for that. Note that the origin progression is (generally) 3 – Expanded Spell List 3 – Defining Feature 6 – Origin Related Exploration or Social Feature 10 – Improvement to Defining Feature 14 – Capstone.

I'm sure this log is probably gibberish to anyone who didn't read the first iteration but serves -- at the very least -- as a memo to myself.

Requilac
2018-06-09, 07:16 AM
@ Mourne

I will eventually get to helping you out, it’s just that I’m currently at work to get my submission completed before the deadline. As soon as that’s done I will see what I can do.

Crim the Cold
2018-06-10, 10:56 AM
I got some inspiration from an unexpected source for a better flavor for my scholar type class idea that better fits the theme as well as what I wanted to with it anyways. Is there good website or program(preferably freeware) that does all the formatting for forum posts?

Edit: Placeholder post made. This may take me some time. I am used to working within my homebrew alternate ruleset which is very different from standard D&D.

Requilac
2018-06-10, 11:24 PM
I got some inspiration from an unexpected source for a better flavor for my scholar type class idea that better fits the theme as well as what I wanted to with it anyways. Is there good website or program(preferably freeware) that does all the formatting for forum posts?



I personally use Homebrewery (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/), which makes some authentic looking documents for 5e content. As for formatting them as posts in GitP, you can use the template which I made off of the statblock which JNA graciously gave me.

Name
Size, Type, Alignment,

Armor Class X (X)
Hit Points X (XdX+X)
Speeds X ft.



STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA


X (+X)
X (+X)
X (+X)
X (+X)
X (+X)
X (+X)



Damage Vulnerabilities X
Damage Resistances X
Damage Immunities X
Saving Throws X +X
Skills X +X
Condition Immunities X
Senses Xft
Languages X
Challenge X


Feature XXX

Actions


Attack Melee/Ranged Weapon/Spell Attack: +X to-hit, reach Xft/Range X/Xft., one target. Hit: X (XdX+X) X damage.

Reactions

Reaction XXX

Mourne
2018-06-14, 12:29 AM
Some minor edits and corrections to the Sleepwalker.

Added an additional Nightmare Origin (the Nightmare of Murder).

Requilac
2018-06-14, 05:30 PM
I apologize for my slowness in getting a submission out, there were some things I wanted to complete before I got to the class. I will be getting far enough into it though to make it competition worthy any day now though. Well, hopefully at least.

_____

What's with all the silence? Last competion was booming with people after two weeks in, but we only have two submissions now. I know that we still have got a month and a week left for the competition, but still, I would assume it would be more easy. Do any of you know why this is happening? If its somehow my fault, don't be afraid to tell me. I don't want this competition to die off right after the 1st contest, and if I can prevent this in the future I would like to.

Jama7301
2018-06-14, 05:48 PM
I withheld creating a class for this one, as I couldn't find any inspiration for the theme, and I feel that I'm not quite ready for making base classes, after how last month's contest went. I'm excited to vote though, once that phase starts.

MoleMage
2018-06-14, 07:02 PM
Can't speak for everyone, but I've been getting kinda behind on housework and yardwork and so I've been spending more time trying to catch up on all of that the last couple weeks. I did start work on my class but it's still missing features for several levels and all of the archetype information so I haven't posted it yet.

Ivellius
2018-06-14, 07:49 PM
What's with all the silence? Last competion was booming with people after two weeks in, but we only have two submissions now. I know that we still have got a month and a week left for the competition, but still, I would assume it would be more easy. Do any of you know why this is happening? If its somehow my fault, don't be afraid to tell me. I don't want this competition to die off right after the 1st contest, and if I can prevent this in the future I would like to.

Creating a whole new base class is fun, but it's a lot of work for this edition. I am still trying to narrow down what I'd like to actually submit for this--I have a few ideas, but they're all in the nascent stages, and I want to build a class I can really "believe" in, if that makes sense. My creative juices have been fleshing out some homebrew documents that are closer to completion and already have work put into them, so the priority hasn't been there.

I think the theme this time around is also much narrower than last.

Personally, I'm even a bit reluctant to discuss ideas here because I feel like people will take them and run off with them. While I know that's silly and/or doesn't really matter even if they do, that explains some of my silence. Let me follow up on something you'd, perhaps, hinted at earlier: out of the ideas you've had, are there any that you'd really like to see implemented as a full class? I or maybe someone who's having creative trouble could potentially work on that instead.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-06-15, 02:50 AM
What's with all the silence?

Speaking for myself, writing good base classes is hard and I don't much enjoy it. I don't intend to be a regular entrant in base class contests; I only did the last one because I'd had an idea for a class in the back of my mind for a while.

If you made a mistake here, I'd say it was starting the contest too soon after the last one ended. People need a breather to gather up their inspiration, and the community here isn't large enough to rotate between two 'shifts' of contestants.

Requilac
2018-06-15, 09:07 AM
So it appears the biggest issue is that the theme is too narrow and restrictive and that people aren’t feeling particularly inspired. I will remember. I will make sure we speak me about what the intended theme should be before making a new thread.’




Let me follow up on something you'd, perhaps, hinted at earlier: out of the ideas you've had, are there any that you'd really like to see implemented as a full class? I or maybe someone who's having creative trouble could potentially work on that instead.

Oh I have created quite a decent amount of ideas. I have decided which one I want to create, and am not going to list it here, but here are all of my other ideas

-A sort of anti-paladin which only has one spell slot, but regains that spell slot whenever it rolls for initiative. They would get a bunch of direct damage spells and to supplement this a couple of divination, illusion and necromancy rituals. They would also have a special summonable magical item called a Shadow Blade which is made of pure shadow. It deals necrotic damage and on hits it and applying other sorts of conditions such as dealing psychic damage, frightening, reducing speed, reducing HP maximum, regeneration seize, stealing hit points, etc.

-A rework of the Deep One warlock which has a subclass for each of the major Great Old Ones. It has a lot of the GOOlock features, plus some other things based around messing with people’s minds. They would also get a decent amount of teleportation, planar travel and summoning features

-A class based around ghosts and the ethereal plane. It would be sort of roguey and be focused on fighting in unconventional manners. They would get a collection of both arcane and divine spells and most of their features would be based around a gradual transformation into becoming incorporeal. A lot of necromancy involved too

-A class based around literally becoming a fey spirit. It would be less focused on combat than it would exploration and social interaction. They would receive some Druidic spells and an assortment of other arcane ones. They would get a lot of features highlighting their extraplaner body and mind (magic resistance, inscrutable, etc.). Their main features though would focus on ehcnanting weapons/making them magical and controlling the minds of its enemies. A class based around domination like effects and supporting their allies in combat.

-A class literally built around creating and moving around dungeons. You can literally be a villain like Acererak. Several features for building infrastructure, environmental effects and of course trap setting. Summoning and tamng would also be central. By level 20 you could literally build the Tomb of Horrors with your features and spells alone.

WarrentheHero
2018-06-15, 11:12 AM
I do have a class I'm working on. I'm just having a hard time refining it to where I want it to be. It's a little unorthodox in its construction, inn a different way than the Inventor was, and I'm having trouble making it work. I've already scrapped and started over once. And I hate posting unfinished classes, outside of maybe a missing feature or two.

In its current incarnation I've got the base class and two of three subclasses made. But something doesn't feel quite right about and I might scrap it again to overhaul the base class.

WarrentheHero
2018-06-15, 05:35 PM
Phobiamancer is up and running. Sorta

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561504-Phobiamancer-for-Requilac-s-Base-Class-Contest-II&p=23153632#post23153632

Requilac
2018-06-15, 07:36 PM
@ Mourne

I really like the direction that this class is going in! It seems really thematic to me and interesting. But I do think there is something you could improve on; the nightmare origins I feel are too specific. Darkness, Murder, Fire and Falling are all a little restrictive. That and unless you build like 8 origins than the class will feel incomplete. I think that the class will be a lot more desirable to play if the origins are more broad. It allows for more creative room the sleepwalker. Not to mention it gives you as the creator more room to make features.

So maybe instead of having the nightmare origins as darkness, murder, fire and falling you could include the following instead...

The unknown: This is probably awful close to Darkness, but it can be expanded to represent the fear of anything unknown, possibly including the ocean, amnesia and certain monsters. The features you have the darkness origin could work with slight changes.

Violence: Once again another one close to Murder, but instead of just focusing on serial killers you can extend it to themes like war, belligerent animals and blood. The features you have the murder origin could work with slight changes.

Chaos: Focuses on one losing control of themselves and the situation around them, inclduing the fear of falling, fire and and insanity. The features you were planning on using for the fire and falling origins could easily work here.

Disease: This one is pretty straightforward and represents a blanket fear covering the phobias of diseases, poisons, venomous animals and unsanitary environments. Inflicting disease and poisons, debuffing and altering the environment make sense for features.

Failure: This covers basically the fear of being too weak to do something, being paralyzed and incapable of doing what is necessary, and being outcompeted by others. Debuffs, incapacitating conditions and frightened conditions work with this theme.

Death: Once again, another straightforward theme including the fear of undead/corpses, being killed (obviously), symbols related to funerals (such as coffins or bells), and maybe even being buried alive. Any form of necromancy is possible here, including raising the dead and offensive dark magic.

Inevitability: The primal fear that something is out for you and you can’t escape it. This would include the phobia people/monsters which can easily track you (such as bloodhounds and spiders), certain scavenging creatures (like vultures and worms), or ones that you can’t easily escape from (sharks while in water and some raptors). Conjuring makes the most sense here, with the supplement of some detect/sense like features.

Loneliness: You may want to come up with a better name for this one, but this basically covers the fear of being left behind, trapped in a place alone and losing someone’s affection/attention. Battlefield control effects make the most sense here.

Edit: and if you are looking for a more mystical sounding name for the sleepwalker, you could call it the Somniaturgist.

Mourne
2018-06-17, 02:31 AM
I really like the direction that this class is going in! It seems really thematic to me and interesting. But I do think there is something you could improve on; the nightmare origins I feel are too specific. Darkness, Murder, Fire and Falling are all a little restrictive. That and unless you build like 8 origins than the class will feel incomplete. I think that the class will be a lot more desirable to play if the origins are more broad. It allows for more creative room the sleepwalker. Not to mention it gives you as the creator more room to make features.

Thanks! The core class ended up coming together fairly well... maybe shading towards too powerful as I couldn't leave certain features out. The intent was to make the core class very versatile (well, as versatile as could be while boxed in by the narrow 5E fear mechanic) and have a very narrow focus with the archetypes (nightmare origins). Unfortunately, I just started to run out of creative steam with the origins... I had a plan for the how to arrange the mechanics, but couldn't find the "thing" that felt just right and took the easy route out -- very narrowly focused archetypes.


So maybe instead of having the nightmare origins as darkness, murder, fire and falling you could include the following instead...

Before I settled on the current origins I had considered other things... themes around the seven deadly sins, the four horsemen, creating specific "named" nightmares similar in concept to warlock patrons, and just dipping into phobias. I may play around a little with the first two and see if inspiration strikes. In regards to the use of "patrons", I worried some that I had already taken too much creative license with the reference to the Realm of Nightmares (not to be confused with the 3.5 Demiplane of the same name) which would not fit in some (many?) campaigns.


The unknown: This is probably awful close to Darkness, but it can be expanded to represent the fear of anything unknown, possibly including the ocean, amnesia and certain monsters. The features you have the darkness origin could work with slight changes.

Violence: Once again another one close to Murder, but instead of just focusing on serial killers you can extend it to themes like war, belligerent animals and blood. The features you have the murder origin could work with slight changes.

Chaos: Focuses on one losing control of themselves and the situation around them, inclduing the fear of falling, fire and and insanity. The features you were planning on using for the fire and falling origins could easily work here.

Disease: This one is pretty straightforward and represents a blanket fear covering the phobias of diseases, poisons, venomous animals and unsanitary environments. Inflicting disease and poisons, debuffing and altering the environment make sense for features.

Failure: This covers basically the fear of being too weak to do something, being paralyzed and incapable of doing what is necessary, and being outcompeted by others. Debuffs, incapacitating conditions and frightened conditions work with this theme.

Death: Once again, another straightforward theme including the fear of undead/corpses, being killed (obviously), symbols related to funerals (such as coffins or bells), and maybe even being buried alive. Any form of necromancy is possible here, including raising the dead and offensive dark magic.

Inevitability: The primal fear that something is out for you and you can’t escape it. This would include the phobia people/monsters which can easily track you (such as bloodhounds and spiders), certain scavenging creatures (like vultures and worms), or ones that you can’t easily escape from (sharks while in water and some raptors). Conjuring makes the most sense here, with the supplement of some detect/sense like features.

Loneliness: You may want to come up with a better name for this one, but this basically covers the fear of being left behind, trapped in a place alone and losing someone’s affection/attention. Battlefield control effects make the most sense here.

Thank you for the ideas! I'll revisit the concept and see if I can't broaden the origins some. I could see going with something along the lines of the Dark Unknown, Unfathomable Depths, Raging Madness, and Eternal Imprisonment... a tad more poetic (almost sounding like a patron name, hmm) and not so narrow.


Edit: and if you are looking for a more mystical sounding name for the sleepwalker, you could call it the Somniaturgist.

Yeah. The class name is a struggle. I don't love the current name but nothing else comes to mind that meets the criteria of my strange naming convention.

Thanks again for taking a look! Let me know if you see anything completely broken mechanically.

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

Requilac
2018-06-17, 10:47 AM
Thanks! The core class ended up coming together fairly well... maybe shading towards too powerful as I couldn't leave certain features out. The intent was to make the core class very versatile (well, as versatile as could be while boxed in by the narrow 5E fear mechanic) and have a very narrow focus with the archetypes (nightmare origins).

Too powerful? I would say currently that you have the exact opposite problem, your base class by itself seems to weak to me.

Dark Passenger is basically just a cantrip that does average damage and applies a weaker version of the frightened condition.

Ominous Presence is helpful but not all that great because really, who ever takes the help action? A similar function can also be done by familiars.

Unsleeping Vigil just grants you one of the elf's features, one which really isn't all that useful except in the most niche of scenarios.

Reflect Fear is fine, but the advantage is weaker than gnome cunning which is recieved at level 1, and the whole reflection ability is unlikely to come up because an unnecessary amount of 5e monsters are immune to the frightened condition.

Dread Revelation is basically a worst version of the Fear spell, which is already on the sleepwalker spell list.

Tormented Offerings would rarely ever be worth it, because exhaustion is very difficult to cure in 5e.

Sinister Insight is a worst version of applying the Charmed condition.

Enter Sandman is a version of the Sleep spell without an AoE and some DoT

By level 15 you can summon a CR 4 monster once per long rest... While your team druid at this level can cast Summon Woodland Beings at higher levels and do that multiple times a day.

Sleep Walker is another version of Astral Projection.

Darkest Dreams is over-all rather powerful, but it doesn't come online until level 20, which hardly any game reaches.

_____

Basically the base class over-all has decent power, but for the most part it can't do anything an elf wizard couldn't. But what it can do is that it can use all of that without expending spell slots, which gives the sleepwalker more in combat power. But that doesn't mean the class is destined to be horrible; you just have to give it more specialty in the archetypes. This has a lot of potential if you build the nightmare origins properly, which is why I cared about them so much.


Unfortunately, I just started to run out of creative steam with the origins... I had a plan for the how to arrange the mechanics, but couldn't find the "thing" that felt just right and took the easy route out -- very narrowly focused archetypes.

Before I settled on the current origins I had considered other things... themes around the seven deadly sins, the four horsemen, creating specific "named" nightmares similar in concept to warlock patrons, and just dipping into phobias. I may play around a little with the first two and see if inspiration strikes. In regards to the use of "patrons", I worried some that I had already taken too much creative license with the reference to the Realm of Nightmares (not to be confused with the 3.5 Demiplane of the same name) which would not fit in some (many?) campaigns.

I don't see anything wrong with having patrons, and I believe it makes sense considering the Manifest Passenger feature. That being said, I think that having the sleepwalker focus more on intangible forces rather than actual creatures is a lot more interesting and thematically appropriate.

As for the Realm of Nightmares, you didn't really describe what that was, so the flavor of that could easily be determined by the DM to fit the setting. It could be a demi-plane created by a demon, another planet, a section of the Far Realm, a twisted version of Lovecraft's Dreamscape, etc. A lot of creative space for what exactly the Realm of Nightmares is.



Thank you for the ideas! I'll revisit the concept and see if I can't broaden the origins some. I could see going with something along the lines of the Dark Unknown, Unfathomable Depths, Raging Madness, and Eternal Imprisonment... a tad more poetic (almost sounding like a patron name, hmm) and not so narrow.

I like it! Still feeling a little narrow to me, but I am rather fond of those archetype concepts and think they could work rather well.



Yeah. The class name is a struggle. I don't love the current name but nothing else comes to mind that meets the criteria of my strange naming convention.

Thanks again for taking a look! Let me know if you see anything completely broken mechanically.

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

You could always translate something from another language, especially an obscure one which people wouldn't recognize. I will not comment on mechanics yet until the archetypes are completed, as they are crucial to determining whether a class is broken or not.

Thank you for all the kind words. Hopefully I can get my base class put out there fairly soon.

Requilac
2018-06-19, 10:26 PM
Alright I have gotten to work on the Deep Spawn class, but it’s not anywhere near completion yet so I will not post it. Basically I am going to take a more specific approach to this completion by making what is basically a sort of supper powered Deep One from Lovecraft’s writings. A lot of ocean and terror themed features here and relations to pre-existing aquatic monsters in 5e lore and similar sea faring animals. Half casting martial class, some intention of being an antithesis of a paladin (but a much more creative one than the death knight stereotype). Some of the features are being stolen right from my home brewed fighter subclass, the aberration. Hopefully, it will turn out the way I want it to.

Crim the Cold
2018-06-22, 09:32 AM
I have been working on the Erudite class and subclasses. Right now the core mechanic that makes everything else work is a knowledge check. It is an intelligence check that they get to add their proficiency bonus to for identifying the strengths, weaknesses, and attacks of undead, fiends, dragons, and non-humanoid monsters. They can make this check versus any opponent but they only get their proficiency bonus versus the enemies listed. This check starts out as a standard action at level 1. Eventually it becomes a move action, then a bonus action, and then the player must choose between an automatic take 10 even under duress or a free action.

The idea being that when they start out they're new at it and it takes them some time. They can only suss out one opponent per turn. Their capability improves to 2 per turn when they start the subclasses. Then it improves to where they can figure out 3 per turn or 1 and be able to fight and move. Finally they either get so confident in their skills that they can reliably identify their opponents even when stressed by fighting or other conditions or their analytical abilities improve to the point that they can figure out several opponents with just a glance.

The check DC will be set at 5+CR though that can be adjusted if it seems too easy.

Mourne
2018-06-24, 02:28 AM
Too powerful? I would say currently that you have the exact opposite problem, your base class by itself seems to weak to me.

Dark Passenger is basically just a cantrip that does average damage and applies a weaker version of the frightened condition.

True, as intended. My intent was for it to scale in damage similarly to (half) of the Rogue’s sneak attack damage or the Paladin’s smite – as a baseline. Given that it doesn’t require a roll to hit and potentially applies half the frightened condition, I’m reasonably happy with it as a main stay. One thing to note is that the condition component of this feature, given that it’s not officially the frightened condition, applies even to creatures that are immune to fear.

Some things I’m consider to improve the overall power:

- Tweak the damage progression – smooth it out some (done in latest edit)
- Add that a creature failing the saving throw is considered to have to the frightened condition for purposes of interacting with other class features. Note that this would not actually apply any effects of that condition, only the tag itself.
- Add Charisma modifier to damage.
- Change damage type to force (this is not tied as well thematically as psychic damage imo)


Ominous Presence is helpful but not all that great because really, who ever takes the help action? A similar function can also be done by familiars.

It’s definitely a “YMMV” feature depending on the group makeup, DM, campaign, etc. The purpose of this feature was more as rider/solidification of theme rather than as a straight up power boost. I personally think it’s decent. If the class does end up needing small power boosts here and there, this could be buffed to affect multiple targets (e.g. Charisma modifier or minimum of 1).


Unsleeping Vigil just grants you one of the elf's features, one which really isn't all that useful except in the most niche of scenarios.

Very true. Honestly, this was just a throw in feature to continue unifying the theme. I tweaked this feature to allow something akin to clairvoyance during the "sleeping" state (i.e. the dark passenger as a scout). I removed the advantage on checks against exhaustion as it didn't seem to really fit.


Reflect Fear is fine, but the advantage is weaker than gnome cunning which is recieved at level 1, and the whole reflection ability is unlikely to come up because an unnecessary amount of 5e monsters are immune to the frightened condition.

Certainly weaker than Gnome Cunning as it’s entirely focused on a single condition (it might make sense to add advantage on saves to resist psychic damage as well). I changed the reflection to inflict damage rather than be condition based; “consumes” the fear to replenish hit points. This gets around the sheer number of fear-immune creatures – something which I had not taken into account.


Dread Revelation is basically a worst version of the Fear spell, which is already on the sleepwalker spell list.

And I feel that it has to be this was as it only requires a bonus action to activate (which the base sleepwalker doesn’t have much competition for). As it’s not a spell, this can be paired with the casting of any spell in addition to normal combat actions (attack). Power wise, this feature was something that I most worried about – even though it is a single target/watered down version of Fear.


Tormented Offerings would rarely ever be worth it, because exhaustion is very difficult to cure in 5e.

Given the sleepwalker’s suite of features, I think that exhaustion doesn’t necessarily impair them as much as other classes – I’d bet even three levels of exhaustion wouldn’t have too much impact. If I keep this (over the alternate feature), I could see maybe buffing Unsleeping Vigil to remove a multiple levels of exhaustion or to perhaps use Hit Die as the power for Tormented Offerings instead. I don’t love this feature but am loath to just create another feature that is a “pure” combat offering… that being said, I've added an alternate feature at this level (Crippling Panic) for review. It's certainly more straight forward and perhaps plays better.


Sinister Insight is a worst version of applying the Charmed condition.

Indeed. Meant more to be a ribbon than anything. I actually modified this (now called Needful Things) and probably made this less "powerful" with more RP potential.


Enter Sandman is a version of the Sleep spell without an AoE and some DoT

This was buffed – tried to baseline damage equivalent to a 5th level (dd) spell; could still increase the duration of the upon awakening condition (or use a different condition).


By level 15 you can summon a CR 4 monster once per long rest... While your team druid at this level can cast Summon Woodland Beings at higher levels and do that multiple times a day.

I don't think I agree here, though maybe I overvalued incorporeal – very powerful if played right. I did swap out some/most of the ghost features – there are some nasty conditions this entity can inflict.

Also, unlike the team druid’s summon/conjuration spells, this does not require concentration.

I did further tweak by adding another feature -- a self heal mechanism



Sleep Walker is another version of Astral Projection.

Yeah (with Etherealness thrown in to cover all bases). A semi-ribbon though it’s certainly functional – I did modify to allow the inclusion of others (at the cost of a 3rd level or higher spell slot).


Darkest Dreams is over-all rather powerful, but it doesn't come online until level 20, which hardly any game reaches.

Sad how few games ever reach the capstone… I did modify this some to make the defensive buff somewhat cleaner.

_____


Basically the base class over-all has decent power, but for the most part it can't do anything an elf wizard couldn't. But what it can do is that it can use all of that without expending spell slots, which gives the sleepwalker more in combat power. But that doesn't mean the class is destined to be horrible; you just have to give it more specialty in the archetypes. This has a lot of potential if you build the nightmare origins properly, which is why I cared about them so much.


My comparison baseline was really the other ½ casters and the rogue (I always like to use rogue for comparisons for some reason). Too many variables with wizards to say x is equal to y as it’s very dependent on situation, skill of player, etc.

Based on your feedback and a few dozen more read-throughs, I’ve made a few tweaks. I’m still struggling/not entirely happy with the origins. If I go with a narrow focus/defined theme they become very niche. If I go broader, they (I) seem to lose focus and just start throwing features at them. For the time being, I’m going to treat the origins as a quasi-patron with control of a very focused slice of the nightmare pie. I think this still provides a lot of potential for expansion but – on the downside – may turn them into one trick ponies (for example, a fire origin would be all but useless against fire immune/resistance creatures).

Again, thanks for the input. I only wish -- given the time this class has consumed -- that I had plans to use/allow it in my own campaign. Maybe as a villain?

Requilac
2018-06-26, 09:24 PM
Sorry for the slow response. I am already caught up in a couple of home brew projects myself at the moment. Creating a homebrew class is surprisingly hard, especially as I am struggling with the exact theme for mine still.


True, as intended. My intent was for it to scale in damage similarly to (half) of the Rogue’s sneak attack damage or the Paladin’s smite – as a baseline. Given that it doesn’t require a roll to hit and potentially applies half the frightened condition, I’m reasonably happy with it as a main stay. One thing to note is that the condition component of this feature, given that it’s not officially the frightened condition, applies even to creatures that are immune to fear.

Some things I’m consider to improve the overall power:

- Tweak the damage progression – smooth it out some (done in latest edit)
- Add that a creature failing the saving throw is considered to have to the frightened condition for purposes of interacting with other class features. Note that this would not actually apply any effects of that condition, only the tag itself.
- Add Charisma modifier to damage.
- Change damage type to force (this is not tied as well thematically as psychic damage imo)

I would add charisma modifier to damage if I were you. Changing the damage type wouldn't change much, and your second suggestion is a little underwhelming. Really though I didn't have major concerns with this class feature as much as the others.



It’s definitely a “YMMV” feature depending on the group makeup, DM, campaign, etc. The purpose of this feature was more as rider/solidification of theme rather than as a straight up power boost. I personally think it’s decent. If the class does end up needing small power boosts here and there, this could be buffed to affect multiple targets (e.g. Charisma modifier or minimum of 1).

I understand why you put the feature in there, and think it does support the theme well enough, I just would still make the statement it is a little weak.



Very true. Honestly, this was just a throw in feature to continue unifying the theme. I tweaked this feature to allow something akin to clairvoyance during the "sleeping" state (i.e. the dark passenger as a scout). I removed the advantage on checks against exhaustion as it didn't seem to really fit.

Ooh, I really like the new addition to this feature. Supports the theme well and is rather eldritch and creepy. This is the kind of ribbon features which I think really solidify a class' concept.



Certainly weaker than Gnome Cunning as it’s entirely focused on a single condition (it might make sense to add advantage on saves to resist psychic damage as well). I changed the reflection to inflict damage rather than be condition based; “consumes” the fear to replenish hit points. This gets around the sheer number of fear-immune creatures – something which I had not taken into account.

Another very interesting addition, and a clever work around for the issue of immunities to the frightened condition. This seems a lot better to me now, and much stronger too, especially with the "vampiric attack".



And I feel that it has to be this was as it only requires a bonus action to activate (which the base sleepwalker doesn’t have much competition for). As it’s not a spell, this can be paired with the casting of any spell in addition to normal combat actions (attack). Power wise, this feature was something that I most worried about – even though it is a single target/watered down version of Fear.

Oh... I entirely looked past the part where it only took a bonus action to activate. It is a rather good feature then. Suitable for 5th level too. I retract my former statement.



Given the sleepwalker’s suite of features, I think that exhaustion doesn’t necessarily impair them as much as other classes – I’d bet even three levels of exhaustion wouldn’t have too much impact. If I keep this (over the alternate feature), I could see maybe buffing Unsleeping Vigil to remove a multiple levels of exhaustion or to perhaps use Hit Die as the power for Tormented Offerings instead. I don’t love this feature but am loath to just create another feature that is a “pure” combat offering… that being said, I've added an alternate feature at this level (Crippling Panic) for review. It's certainly more straight forward and perhaps plays better.

Disadvantage on ability checks, having your speed halved and getting disadvantage on saving throws always sucks, regardless of class. As for crippling panic... I would normally be a little woried about being able to so easily apply the incapacitated condition, but then again monks do get stunning strike I suppose. Still, I would limit the use of Crippling Panic somehow. Perhaps you can only use it a number of times equal to your charisma modifier per long rest?



Indeed. Meant more to be a ribbon than anything. I actually modified this (now called Needful Things) and probably made this less "powerful" with more RP potential.

Ten minutes is a while to activate... I would reduce it to one minute, like the Battlemaster's Know Your Enemy.



This was buffed – tried to baseline damage equivalent to a 5th level (dd) spell; could still increase the duration of the upon awakening condition (or use a different condition).

What could be cool is if you made this like Sleep Paralysis where when they wake up they are paralyzed until the end of their next turn. Definitely fits the theme of nightmares well.



I don't think I agree here, though maybe I overvalued incorporeal – very powerful if played right. I did swap out some/most of the ghost features – there are some nasty conditions this entity can inflict.

Also, unlike the team druid’s summon/conjuration spells, this does not require concentration.

I did further tweak by adding another feature -- a self heal mechanism

One thing you are forgetting though; if a druid's summoned monster dies the druid doesn't take 10d10 damage and lose their ability to cast spells. I would be terrified to use this feature knowing that the only thing keeping me from taking that much damage was a creature with 11 AC and 45 HP. A CR 15 monster could easily kill the passenger in one round (check page 274 of the DMG), even if it was resistant to non-magical damage. And that's just a medium encounter. This feature is quite a gamble to use, which might be the intention, but by making it so risky it is less likely to be used.



Yeah (with Etherealness thrown in to cover all bases). A semi-ribbon though it’s certainly functional – I did modify to allow the inclusion of others (at the cost of a 3rd level or higher spell slot).

I never thought this feature was underpowered persay, I was just saying its not really something that wasn't already possible.



Sad how few games ever reach the capstone… I did modify this some to make the defensive buff somewhat cleaner.

As a DM I am not saddened whatsoever. Challenging the party at T3 is already a nightmare, just imagine how imposisble it would be at T4. Also, I personally think that a permanent mirror image where you could recharge one of the images using an action would be a really cool choice too for the defensive buff.

_____



My comparison baseline was really the other ½ casters and the rogue (I always like to use rogue for comparisons for some reason). Too many variables with wizards to say x is equal to y as it’s very dependent on situation, skill of player, etc.

Based on your feedback and a few dozen more read-throughs, I’ve made a few tweaks. I’m still struggling/not entirely happy with the origins. If I go with a narrow focus/defined theme they become very niche. If I go broader, they (I) seem to lose focus and just start throwing features at them. For the time being, I’m going to treat the origins as a quasi-patron with control of a very focused slice of the nightmare pie. I think this still provides a lot of potential for expansion but – on the downside – may turn them into one trick ponies (for example, a fire origin would be all but useless against fire immune/resistance creatures).

I am beginning to like the Sleepwalker more and more as you update it. And I approve of the direction of where the origins are going. I still have to wait for all the archetypes to be finished to pass my final jugdement, but I am overall impressed by the work you have put out here. Not only have you made good mechanics, but you have also made it easy to understand and with lots of flavor, which many homebrewers fail to implement. You are doing great, keep up the good work please!



Again, thanks for the input. I only wish -- given the time this class has consumed -- that I had plans to use/allow it in my own campaign. Maybe as a villain?

Yeah I feel that a lot too with my homebrew projects. The only times I am not DMing is at AL, where I can't get an opportunity to use my homebrew. I suppose that is why I love making monsters so much; I know that I can find a chance to use them. Still, I am slightly relieved by the idea that maybe two years or less from now some newb to the forum may somehow find my old class/race/subclass and threadmancy it, still expressing praise at the project and hoping to use it. As weird as that sounds...

Ivellius
2018-07-03, 09:14 AM
Phobiamancer is up and running. Sorta

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561504-Phobiamancer-for-Requilac-s-Base-Class-Contest-II&p=23153632#post23153632

I finally had some time to look at this. I like that the Nightmare Domains are distinct and have good flavor--Arachnophobia feels very different from Thanatophobia. You also have some interesting mechanics. Breaking your body into spiders is a bit unusual and probably complicated, but it has to be. I really like both Echoes of the Dead and Defy Death for being unique, relatively simple, and yet seemingly mechanically sound. Echoes of the Dead probably does have some swinginess to it--it's a "win more" feature, but useless if you can't kill anything--but I do still really like it.

Given those last two abilities, I feel like you took some inspiration from a popular MOBA, though I can't say for certain...

While I think the basic idea is decent, overall I'd say it lacks in limitations. Sure, the class doesn't necessarily have to be resource-based, but having an action that does unavoidable damage (such as Shatter Psyche or Claustrophobia's Dark Confinement) isn't really how the game is designed. I'd go through and look at most of the class's abilities, either toning them down to something more like a cantrip or basic attack or introducing more limited uses. For instance, Iron Maiden, Mind Cage, and Domain of Closure seemingly can all be used freely. Echoes of the Dead should probably have language about its duration; there are some others but I need to wrap up this post. Counterpoint: Dreadful Stare is probably okay as long as it takes an action instead of a bonus action.

Anyway, I think you have a pretty good core here that just needs a bit of polish. In terms of its abilities, are you envisioning more of a short-rest, long-rest, or resourceless class? I'd say it's almost certainly the latter, but maybe ask yourself that a bit as you work on this (if you continue to).

Also, you have a duplicated sentence at the end of Fright Magic.

Requilac
2018-07-05, 11:00 AM
Oh my, creating this class is difficult. I wish I had chosen something with a little bit more consistent theme. This is quite a hard project. I will see if I can get it published in its rough draft today or tomorrow though.

Requilac
2018-07-06, 10:11 PM
Alright, it took me a while, but I finally have a rough draft of the deep spawn class. There is a lot of work left to be done, namely actually putting in flavor descriptions (for the class itself and the individual features), making the level 15 extraplanar embodiment features, porting all the information over to a google document, and proofreading. If any of you have any comments to make on mechanical matters until the other flavor, formatting and grammar matters have been handled, feel free to speak up. Here is a link to it below.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkP2ftAjGX

Edit: Oh, and yes, the Giant Ghostly Seahorse isn’t meant to be taken seriously.

Requilac
2018-07-08, 09:29 PM
Alright then I have put the finishing touches on the Deep Spawn and it is all prepared. Flavor descriptions, proofreading, mechanics, formatting and all. For anyone that cares enough, please give some input on it. I have links to both the homebrewery and google doc below.

Homebrewery: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkP2ftAjGX

Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L5PGdboEYcW0flV8YGt1OUhXIrbF7yIBPEuwSrlO_hQ/edit?usp=sharing

Mourne
2018-07-10, 12:50 AM
Requilac -- Some thoughts on the Deep Dweller...

Overall, there are some great ideas in this class! I really liked where the class was going as defined by the first 5 levels (well, except for not really understanding how the vulture fit in). My biggest issue is that there’s no unifying theme… it starts out feeling like a melee, then gains casting a little like a Warlock, dabbles in a strange barbarian rage feature, gains a ranger-like pet, and then turns into a elementalist that controls weather. I’m not sure where/how the vulture fits in – it feels forced at the moment.

I think if you concentrated on a unifying theme for the main class (e.g. an eldritch being from the deep oceans/dark underworld) and determined its main niche (combat, caster, pet), you could build the base class more easily/accordingly. Use the Embodiments to diversify – geez, this is almost the same lecture you gave me on my Sleepwalker. :smallsmile:

The embodiments also don’t seem to be balance to one another at this point. Far Realm feels much weaker than the others.

It certainly is coming around! A little more polish and you’re probably there. Speaking of polish… you’re fluff writing is great. I wish I had the time to do something similar to my classes (though, to be fair, my players really only care about the mechanics and would gloss over long fluff – if they read it at all).

Specific comments after "quoted" sections.



Armor: Light, Medium and Heavy Armor, Shields
Heavy may not be needed/too much with Unnatural Combatant.


Weapons: Simple, Martial and Improvised Weapons
Improvised as a proficiency – odd. I’ve never seen that before. What is the intent? Also, as I comment later, maybe the martial proficiency is redundant with how Unnatural Combatant is currently structured.


Saving Throws. Wisdom and Charisma
Why Wisdom and Charisma when a large portion of the class seems based on physical combat? Are you trying to avoid stacking the saves with the armor bonus of Unnatural Combatant? It “feels” like Con and Cha would be a better fit here.


Deep Dweller (Level 1)
Strange magic originating from the lightless abysses of the ocean have transformed your body. You gain a swimming speed equal to your base walking speed and the ability to breathe in both air and water. Also, you have resistance to cold damage.

Finally, you gain darkvision out to an 120 ft. radius if you didn't have that already.

A lot packed into one feature (though I somewhat understand as it’s being used to “set the stage”).


Unnatural Combatant (Level 1)
A thin layer of protective covering has formed over your skin. The appearance of this is for you to decide, but it is likely to be a facsimile of the natural armor of an aquatic animal (such as fish scales or a crab carapace). While you are not wearing any armor, your armor class equals 13+ your dexterity or constitution modifier (your choice) . You can use a shield and still gain this benefit.

Creates a single ability dependent AC (which isn’t without precedent), but does allow for complete optimization (especially as you’re allowed to pick your “prime” stat) – a barbarian as a multiclass could completely dump Dex and gain a major benefit from this. I’m not sure heavy armor proficiency is necessary with this feature as the class will naturally have an AC that is equivalent to the best medium armor and some heavy armors.


In addition, on your turn you can cause a set of strange, unnatural weapons to form over both of your free hands (no action required). The form that this weapon takes is chosen by you from the list below each time you use this feature. These weapons are attached to your body and cannot be removed or disarmed.

For some reason, I’d like to see a hit to the action economy here… even if only consuming a reaction. A bonus action would work best. I’m assuming you are proficient with these weapons (yeah, I know they’re listed as simple melee weapons)?


Claws: A set of claws sprout from both of your hands. They can take on the appearance of the claws of any animal you choose, including a crab's. These simple melee weapons deal 1D6 slashing damage and have the finesse and light property.

Dual wielding option. Obviously meant to pair with a Dex build. Equivalent to the best finesse/light martial weapons.


Maw: Your body is temporarily restructured so that your head can support a collection of deadly teeth. How this appears is up to you; you can decide to simply grow a set of bat-like fangs or have your entire head morphed into that of a shark’s. Your maw counts as a simple melee weapon that deals 1D12 piercing damage and, despite the fact that it is not actually taking up any hands, effectively has the two-handed property.

Strength option. Equivalent to the best two handed weapons. It does seem weird that this has the two-handed property and can’t use a shield, etc. (though I understand the reasoning).

[/QUOTE]Tentacle and Biotic Shield: One of your arms transforms into a grotesque tentacle and the other turns into some sort of shield made of organic substances such as bone, chitin or scales. The tentacle, which is a simple melee weapon, deals 1D8 bludgeoning damage and has the finesse property while the shield behaves the same as a mundane shield.[/QUOTE]

Sword and board. Weapon equivalent to the best martial finesse weapon.


Throwing Quills: Both of your hands become covered in a layer of lethal quills that you can throw extremely far away. These quills count as a simple ranged weapon that deal 1D8 piercing damage and have the ammunition property (range 80/320). You have 20 of these quills, and all lost quills regrow when you finish short or long rest. Despite the fact that these quills form over both of your hands, instead of having the light property they effectively have the two-handed property.

Effectively a light crossbow without having to have ammunition (no ammunition property or loading property).

All in all, you mention that these are all simple melee weapon equivalents yet they match the best of the martial weapons in terms of damage and properties (with the exception of throwing quills). Maybe pare them down to the true simple weapon equivalent? Or remove martial weapon proficiency from the class – redundant. Also, these could become useless if there's no way for them to become magical weapons (damage resistance bypass).



Sanguinary Vulture (Level 1)
A ghostly vulture follows you so that it may feed on the terror you sow. This vulture cannot interact with the world anyway other than what is described in this feature. On your turn you can turn it invisible if it is visible or vice versa (no action required). It is usually perched on your shoulder and shares your space, but on your turn you can cause it to fly up to 40 ft. (no action required), so long as it does not move more than 150 ft. away from you. If the vulture is in the space of a creature below half its hit point maximum (round down), then you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature.

Essentially permanent advantage (assuming the condition is met). I’d also suggest this one consume a bonus action (to move/”attack” at least)… or at least give a targeted creature a saving throw to resist the effect. Is the invisibility meant as anything other than fluff? Can the vulture be targeted? What happens if it’s destroyed?


Eldritch Magic (Level 2)
As a deep spawn you possess weird, arcane powers which allow you to alter the reality of the Material Plane to your will.

Cantrips
You know two cantrips of your choice from the deep spawn spell list. You learn additional deep spawn cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the cantrips known column of the deep spawn table.

Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
At 2nd level, you know two 1st level spells of your choice from the deep spawn spell list.

The spells known column of the deep spawn table shows when you learn more deep spawn spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s slot level column for your level.

Additionally, whenever you complete a long rest, you can choose one of the deep spawn spells you know and replace it with another spell from the deep spawn spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Maybe eliminate this portion and make it a daily selection (similar to Cleric). It seems the intent is that they’re drawing upon some hidden/dark being as a power source.

e.g. You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the deep dweller spell list. When you do so, choose a number of deep dweller spells equal to your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.


Occult Invocation (Spell Slots)
You only start out with one spell slot, and at no point do you get more than that. Whenever you cast a spell (without ritual casting it), you expend that spell slot. Whenever you roll for initiative or complete a long rest, if you currently don't have that spell slot then you regain it.

This is a cool mechanic!


Spellcasting Ability
The forbidden knowledge which you possess gives you the power to manipulate magical energies. Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your deep spawn spells, so you use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a deep spawn spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Too give some attribute synergy to the class, maybe change this to Charisma? You currently have Wis + Cha as saves, Con or Dex for Unnatural Combatant, and now Int for casting? It’s a really MAD class (intended?)


Innate Spellcasting
You cannot use a spellcasting focus, but a component pouch will serve the same purpose

Isn’t this always the case? The focus only really serves to eliminate the need for “free” material components, which a component pouch already does.


Elemental Aptitude
Whenever you cast a spell which deals fire damage, you may choose to change the damage type from fire to cold.

There is no “cost” associated with this (e.g. having to use a higher level slot)? Honestly, it seems more fluff than anything but does give a little extra bit of versatility. Cold damage does seem to fit the theme (at least as portrayed).


Tongue of the Deep (Level 2)
You learn Aquan (Primordial) and Deep Speech. Whenever you speak in Aquan you can communicate with beasts and humanoids that have the Amphibious, Limited Amphibious- ness or Water Breathing feature as if you shared a language.

A couple of rarer (and possibly rarely used) bonus languages and limited speak with animals.


Hideous Appearance (Level 3)
You can use an action to warp you form, making you appear so twisted that it evokes a vehement reaction upon those that you see you. Any creaure that has a direct line of sight to you which moves to a location within 10 ft. of you or starts its turn within 10 ft. of you is subjected to one of the following effects until the start of their next turn. If an effect calls for a saving throw, use your spell save DC. Whenever you activate this feature, choose one of the following options which remain active for the full duration.

Loathsome Appearance. Those that see you are filled with hatred at your blasphemous nature. A target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or suffer disadvantage on attack rolls made against creatures other than you. Targets with immunity to being charmed are immune to this effect.

Crowd control.


Despairing Appearance. Anyone who looks at you is filled with crippling hopelessness. A target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or suffer disadvantage on saving throws against being frightened and Charisma saving throws. Aberrations and targets with an Intelligence score of 5 or below are immune to this effect.

Not that useful except as a setup for other features, spells, or allies.


Revulsive Appearance. Creatures are disgusted by your grotesque form and don't feel comfortable being close to you. A target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or the area within 10 ft. of you is considered to be difficult terrain for them. Targets with immunity to being frightened are immune to this effect.

Additional crowd control.


Terrifying Appearance. Your anatomy strikes fear into the minds of those that look upon you. A target must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or be frightened.

Frightened for how long?


On your turn you can automatically shift back to your normal form (no action required). Otherwise you stay like that for one minute until your figure shifts back automatically.

Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

To me, this feels like a weird form of rage?


Spirit Familiar (Level 6)
By spending one hour performing an eldritch ritual (this can't be done during a short rest) you can summon the spirit of an intelligent aquatic creature from another plane of existence and bind it to your will. Once you complete this ritual your spirit familiar manifests and takes on the form of your choice of either a Ghostly Sahaugin, Bullywug, Chuul, Kuo-Toa, Merrow, Octopus or Giant Sea Horse. You can find the statistics of each of these monsters on page 8-11 of this document.

This spirit familiar cannot act independently from you and always obeys your commands. If you are not giving it commands, it will prioritize escaping from any immediate danger first and focus on following as close to you as possible second, but it will otherwise take no actions.

You may use a bonus action to command the spirit. When you command it this way it immediately makes its turn and takes all the actions you tell it to and only follows those directions.

If your spirit familiar drops to 0 hit points it dissapears. If you complete a short rest then your spirit familiar regains an amount of hit points equal to 1d8 + your intelligence modifier. If you complete a long rest then your spirit faimiliar regains all of its hit points and, if it was slain, reappears at your side.
You can telepathically communicate with your spirit familiar, so long as you two are on the same plane of existence. As an action you can see through your spirit familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, using the special senses of the spirit familiar instead of your own. During this time, you are deafened and blinded to your own senses.

You can't have more than one spirit familiar at a time. Once you perform this ritual, you cannot do so again until you gain a level in the deep spawn class. If you commit to this ritual again then you can cause your spirit familiar to adopt a new form and, if it was slain, also immediately reappear.

This spirit familiar shares your ideal, you decide its personality traits and flaw, and its bond is the following; "I unquestioningly follow my summoner's commands.

The ranger companion redone. Does the spirit familiar advance at all (in regards to HD, proficiency bonus, damage)? If not, it could quickly become a liability.


Otherworldly Awareness (Level 10)
Your connection to the other planes has become so great that your eyes can penetrate the veil between the Material and Ethereal plane. Magical darkness doesn't impede your darkvision. In addition, You can see into the Ethereal Plane, which also allows you to see invisible creatures and objects, within 60 feet of you. Ethereal or invisible creatures and objects appear ghostly and translucent.

Almost true sight. More ribbon than anything (with the exception of seeing through magical darkness)


Necromantic Weapons (Level 11)
The weapons you wield have become cursed with the infleunce of your vile magic. Whenever you hit with a weapon attack, the target takes an extra 1d6 cold or necrotic damage (your choice when you make the attack roll).

I understand giving a choice for versatility… but at some point locking in the theme (in the core class) would be better. Either the biting cold of the depths or corrupting necrotic energies. Given this is a major power bump level, maybe start this at 1d4 and scale it a few times throughout the remaining levels? 1d6 would become fairly negilible later in life.


If the target takes this extra damage and is not resistant or immune to it, than it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell save DC) or be unable to regain hit points until the end of its next turn.

Very nice touch.


Weakness to Light (Level 14)
The forces of light have marked you as their enemy. Whenever you are standing in an area of direct sunlight you have disadvantage on perception checks which rely on sight. In addition, If you ever take 10 or more radiant damage in a single turn then you must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or suffer disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks until the end of your next turn.

Finally, celestials have advantage on attack rolls against you, and you have disadvantage on saving throws and contested ability checks against them.

It’s really odd having a flaw/detriment built into a class… not saying I don’t like it, just probably not going to be super popular. Maybe if you moved this to the beginning of the class (part of Deep Dweller) to further the thematic, and added a “useful” feature here?


Elemental Body (Level 18)
Your body is imbued with powerful elemental energies. Whenever a creature touches you or makes a melee attack against you while within 5 ft. of you, they automatically take an amount of cold or lightning damage equal to your intelligence modifier. This feature inherently does lightning damage, but you may change the damage type from lightning to cold or vice versa after you complete a short or long rest.

Why the cold or lightning? As per my other comment, wouldn’t mind seeing the theme solidified some. Varied elemental abilities don't seem to fit the first five levels of the class.


Weather Manipulation (Level 20)
You have become an unparalleled master of the elements and can alter the weather to your whims. By using an action you can take control of the weather within 5 miles of your current location. When you do so you can immediately change the current weather conditions including the precipitation, temperature and wind.

When controlling the precipitation you can create or clear as many clouds as you woud like, generate fogs or mist throughout the area, summon harmless rain, hail or snow or even force an intense thunderstorm, hailstorm or blizzard upon the area.

When controlling the temperature you can cause it to rise up to intense heat, drop it to intense cold or change it to any temperature between those two extremes.

When controlling the wind you can calm the wind down almost entirely, whip it into hurricane force winds, or change it to any level in between those two extremes.

By having clouds cover the sun you can cause the sun to shine dim light upon the area instead of bright light. By generating snow or hail you can cause every piece of ground open to the sky to become difficult terrain. You can also create Extreme Cold, Extreme Heat, Strong Wind and Heavy Precipitation in the area. In Extreme Cold, the surfaces of outdoor bodies of water within the area become Thin Ice and Slippery Ice, and the water below the ice becomes Frigid Water. You can find the meaning of all these terms on page 110 and 111 of the DMG.

If it is storming outside, you can use an action or bonus action on your turn to call lightning down upon one target that you can see. That target must succeed on Dexterity saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell save DC) or take 2d12 lightning damage. Everything within 10 ft. of the lightning strike, including the target which was struck by lightning, must also succeed on a Constitution saving throw with the same DC or take 1d10 thunder damage.

If it is storming outside, you may also use an action or bonus action to cast Control Water or Gust of Wind. It does not require concentration to cast either of these spells; instead it lasts for the full duration or until you end the effect on your turn (no action required).
You may also spend an hour conducting an eldritch ritual which forces an eclipse. While doing this you must concentrate (as if concentrating on a spell), and if you lose concentration then the ritual fails. After completing the ritual you may create your choice of either a solar or lunar eclipse. If you summon a lunar eclipse, than for the next hour all aberrations, fey, fiends and undead except for you and your familiar have disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws. If you summon a solar eclipse, than for the next hour all aberrations, fey, fiends and undead have advantage on ability checks and saving throws. If you commit to this ritual then you take 10d10 psychic damage, even if the ritual was interrupted, and cannot perform it ever again.

This is somewhat underwhelming (and very dependent on something a DM would need to be using –weather) for a capstone. I also don’t get the weather theme here – it doesn’t match any of the previous features in regards to build up. That being said, I really *love* the eclipse portion.

I'll get the embodiments later.

Requilac
2018-07-10, 09:28 PM
Requilac -- Some thoughts on the Deep Dweller...

Overall, there are some great ideas in this class! I really liked where the class was going as defined by the first 5 levels (well, except for not really understanding how the vulture fit in). My biggest issue is that there’s no unifying theme… it starts out feeling like a melee, then gains casting a little like a Warlock, dabbles in a strange barbarian rage feature, gains a ranger-like pet, and then turns into a elementalist that controls weather. I’m not sure where/how the vulture fits in – it feels forced at the moment.

I think if you concentrated on a unifying theme for the main class (e.g. an eldritch being from the deep oceans/dark underworld) and determined its main niche (combat, caster, pet), you could build the base class more easily/accordingly. Use the Embodiments to diversify – geez, this is almost the same lecture you gave me on my Sleepwalker. :smallsmile:

You know, I was actually taking some of that into consideration. To me I thought it had a really solid and concrete, but I was worried that other people wouldn't be able to pick it up. I have a lot more to say about the comments above, but I will mention those later.




The embodiments also don’t seem to be balance to one another at this point. Far Realm feels much weaker than the others.

Yeah I noticed that pretty early on. Keep in mind that for the most part the archetypes are largely there for flavor with little mechanical impact though. I know that some people may not like that idea, but I personally found it the best approach to go with for this class.



It certainly is coming around! A little more polish and you’re probably there. Speaking of polish… you’re fluff writing is great. I wish I had the time to do something similar to my classes (though, to be fair, my players really only care about the mechanics and would gloss over long fluff – if they read it at all).

Thank you! I do always focus much more on roleplaying aspects than mechanical ones, and the Deep Spawn is no exception.

Specific comments after "quoted" sections.



Heavy may not be needed/too much with Unnatural Combatant.

True, true, I wasn't really thinking too much about that. I kind of thought that since it was a martial class it should have proficiency in heavy armor, but it doesn't make sense thematically. And its not as if some martial classes from the PHB, the barbarian in ranger, lack heavy armor proficiency. I removed the proficiency with heavy armor.



Improvised as a proficiency – odd. I’ve never seen that before. What is the intent? Also, as I comment later, maybe the martial proficiency is redundant with how Unnatural Combatant is currently structured.

You know, when I was designing the class I remember having a really good reason for granting proficiency in Improvised weapons... but I forgot entirely what that was. I think it had something to do with vials of acid.., somehow? I will be scrapping that part, it seems irrelevant and largely "off".

As for the martial weapon proficiency, I do have two reasons behind that, both of which I discovered when I was actually making this class' predecessor, the Aberration martial archetype for fighters. First off, some people don't like the imagery of using natural weapons. They think it looks odd, especially the maw, and struggle to visualize it. Some just prefer the imagery of using normal weapons, and giving them proficiency in martial weapons doesn't make the class overpowered, so I added it in. My second rationale behind giving them martial weapon proficiency is in case they come across any magical weapons. Its going to suck if you find a Sword of Life Stealing or Trident of Fish command but can't use it because you lack martial weapon proficiency after all.



Why Wisdom and Charisma when a large portion of the class seems based on physical combat? Are you trying to avoid stacking the saves with the armor bonus of Unnatural Combatant? It “feels” like Con and Cha would be a better fit here.

That is all true, its just that I have this weird quirk of disliking the idea of my more alien sub classes to be easily harmed by mental effects. It just feels wrong to me that this embodiment from another plane of existence would be scared half to death of a dragon or gawking over a dryad. But in truth, constitution makes much more sense. I am going to get over my qualms and switch proficiency in wis saves for con.



Creates a single ability dependent AC (which isn’t without precedent), but does allow for complete optimization (especially as you’re allowed to pick your “prime” stat) – a barbarian as a multiclass could completely dump Dex and gain a major benefit from this. I’m not sure heavy armor proficiency is necessary with this feature as the class will naturally have an AC that is equivalent to the best medium armor and some heavy armors.

I can't possibility account for multi-classing into this equation. I am trying to make this class as best as it can be in itself, if i take into account multiclassing makes things become much harder than they need to be.



For some reason, I’d like to see a hit to the action economy here… even if only consuming a reaction. A bonus action would work best. I’m assuming you are proficient with these weapons (yeah, I know they’re listed as simple melee weapons)?

Of course the Deep Spawn would be proficient in them, they are called simple weapons which the class has proficiency in. I will make it cost a bonus action if you feel it should come up. It doesn't change much either way, and I personally don't think it matters all that much.



Strength option. Equivalent to the best two handed weapons. It does seem weird that this has the two-handed property and can’t use a shield, etc. (though I understand the reasoning).

Yeah I know it looks pretty weird visually, but I was hard pressed to find a natural weapon that would take up both hands. There really isn't an animal that has that sort of thing.



All in all, you mention that these are all simple melee weapon equivalents yet they match the best of the martial weapons in terms of damage and properties (with the exception of throwing quills). Maybe pare them down to the true simple weapon equivalent? Or remove martial weapon proficiency from the class – redundant. Also, these could become useless if there's no way for them to become magical weapons (damage resistance bypass).

See my above reasoning for why I kept martial weapon proficiency. The only reason that I considered the unnatural weapons simple is because I think that makes more sense thematically, even if mechanically it looks a little strange. It should be easy for the Deep Spawn to wield them after all, they become part of their body. I would find it even weirder if they were considered as martial weapons.

And wait a second, they don't deal magic damage? They don't do they? That was completely my mistake, they were supposed to, but I forgot to add that in. Thanks for catching that mistake.




Essentially permanent advantage (assuming the condition is met). I’d also suggest this one consume a bonus action (to move/”attack” at least)… or at least give a targeted creature a saving throw to resist the effect. Is the invisibility meant as anything other than fluff? Can the vulture be targeted? What happens if it’s destroyed?

The second sentence explains all of your questions; "This vulture cannot interact with the world (or be interacted with) anyway other than what is described in this feature." The invisibility is just there for fluff. I don't want to have it cost an interaction, because the deep spawn already has too much competition for its bonus action already.

And also I am going to be completely honest with you; this feature is basically just a more thematic version of the Sahaugin's Blood Frenzy. In fact originally they did just have Blood Frenzy, but I wanted something with a little more oomph.

I don't believe I fully understand your case with saying that the vulture isn't thematic though. This class has a recurring theme of the twisting of nature and animal imagery. Deep Dweller makes you amphibious like a fish. Unnatural combatant gives the armor and weapons of an animal. Tongue of the Deep allows you to communicate with animals. The Spirit Familiar can turn into an animal. Elemental Body is reminiscent of an electric eel.

And also, keep in mind what a vulture symbolically represents. They are thematically tied to corpses, mortal injures and the dying, necromantic magic, the afterlife and souls of the dead, etc. Altogether some vile imagery, which gives the Deep Spawn a more sinister mood. Really emphasizes the anti-cleric, ant-druid and anti-paladin mood a lot.




Maybe eliminate this portion and make it a daily selection (similar to Cleric). It seems the intent is that they’re drawing upon some hidden/dark being as a power source.

e.g. You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the deep dweller spell list. When you do so, choose a number of deep dweller spells equal to your Charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Sure, why not? I am already allowing them to change a spell after a long rest anyhow. Don't know why I didn't implement this sooner...



Too give some attribute synergy to the class, maybe change this to Charisma? You currently have Wis + Cha as saves, Con or Dex for Unnatural Combatant, and now Int for casting? It’s a really MAD class (intended?) [QUOTE]

I changed around the saving throws, so that should clear this matter up. Only Con, Dex and Int have been mentioned so far.

[QUOTE=Mourne;23210054]
Isn’t this always the case? The focus only really serves to eliminate the need for “free” material components, which a component pouch already does.

It is always the case, I just wanted to remind people.


There is no “cost” associated with this (e.g. having to use a higher level slot)? Honestly, it seems more fluff than anything but does give a little extra bit of versatility. Cold damage does seem to fit the theme (at least as portrayed).

It is fluff more than anything. I just noticed that when designing the spell list, a lot of fire spells came up (burning hands, hellish rebuke, fireball, scorching ray) and wanted to make the theme more consistent.




Frightened for how long?

A creature is frightened until the start of their next turn, as described earlier with the following clause in the first paragraph; "Any creaure that has a direct line of sight to you which moves to a location within 10 ft. of you or starts its turn within 10 ft. of you is subjected to one of the following effects until the start of their next turn."



To me, this feels like a weird form of rage?

How does this remind you of rage exactly? Barbarian Rage allows you to use a bonus action to gain advantage on strength checks and saving throws, deal extra damage, and gain resistance to B/P/S damage which last for 1 minute. It has multiple charges which are restored on a long rest. The Deep Spawn's Hideous appearance allows you to use a bonus action to generate an aura effect which debuffs enemies and last for 1 minute. It only has one charge but it is restored on a long rest. Literally the only similarity I am seeing is their durations and the fact that they regain uses after a long rest, but that's hardly an original mechanic.



The ranger companion redone. Does the spirit familiar advance at all (in regards to HD, proficiency bonus, damage)? If not, it could quickly become a liability.

It does not advance. It's just a familiar, its not really supposed to be used in combat except in the most niche of scenarios. Its a CR 1/4 monster, so according to Xanathar's its like having a 1st level PC along for the ride. And the reason that the familiar can turn into an invisible and usually tiny animal is what keeps it from being a liability.



Almost true sight. More ribbon than anything (with the exception of seeing through magical darkness)

It is absolutely a ribbon ability.



I understand giving a choice for versatility… but at some point locking in the theme (in the core class) would be better. Either the biting cold of the depths or corrupting necrotic energies. Given this is a major power bump level, maybe start this at 1d4 and scale it a few times throughout the remaining levels? 1d6 would become fairly negilible later in life.

Yeah, I think I do need to secure its theme a little bit more. This should just deal cold damage. As for the damage bump, I was basing this feature off of the paladin's improved divine smite, which deals an extra 1d8 radiant damage on a hit, but doesn't have the ability to seize hit point regeneration.



It’s really odd having a flaw/detriment built into a class… not saying I don’t like it, just probably not going to be super popular. Maybe if you moved this to the beginning of the class (part of Deep Dweller) to further the thematic, and added a “useful” feature here?

I think it is actually really thematic. It really seals the deal that the Deep Spawn is an unholy and dark thing.



Why the cold or lightning? As per my other comment, wouldn’t mind seeing the theme solidified some. Varied elemental abilities don't seem to fit the first five levels of the class.

I wanted the lightning damage there to make it seem reminiscent of an electric eel. That being said, I see your point, and I will just make it cold damage.



This is somewhat underwhelming (and very dependent on something a DM would need to be using –weather) for a capstone. I also don’t get the weather theme here – it doesn’t match any of the previous features in regards to build up. That being said, I really *love* the eclipse portion.

I'll get the embodiments later.[/SPOILER]

I think it actually fits the theme well here well. As I previously stated, a rec curing theme here is the subversion of nature and the natural order. Deep Dweller gives you inhumane characteristics, Unnatural Combatant gives you features no human should have, your magic itself is not native to the Material Plane, Hideous Appearance makes you so wretched looking that it actually harms others, your spirit familiar is clearly some necromantic/summoning ability (neither of which are wholesome to the world), Necromantic Weapons prevents someone from healing, and Weakness to light makes it clear you are enemies with the preservers of nature.

And with Weather Manipulation, you take one of the strongest embodiments of what should be natural and make it unnatural. Snow in deserts, scorching flood inducing heat in the tundras, drought in the rainforest... things that should not occur, but which do because of the deep spawn's malign influence. What should be natural is their toy to mess with and use for the torment of others. I also like how it reinforces the idea that the deep spawn's very presence inflicts a "plague" upon the world. Long before you see it, you will feel the impacts which the deep spawn makes upon the environment. Very creepy ability.

That and Gothic and Lovecraftian horror does make a lot of mention of storms and ice, so I thought it would be a nice to allusion to some of those pieces.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-11, 11:23 AM
I finally had some time to look at this. I like that the Nightmare Domains are distinct and have good flavor--Arachnophobia feels very different from Thanatophobia.
That's just a benefit of the theme, really. One of the features lists 15 different Phobias and that's such a small percentage of the grand list of things people fear


You also have some interesting mechanics. Breaking your body into spiders is a bit unusual and probably complicated, but it has to be. I really like both Echoes of the Dead and Defy Death for being unique, relatively simple, and yet seemingly mechanically sound. Echoes of the Dead probably does have some swinginess to it--it's a "win more" feature, but useless if you can't kill anything--but I do still really like it. I'm glad you like them. Echoes of the Dead I actually don't think is as strong as it looks, and it doesn't even look that strong. It depends not only on your reaction but on Attacks of Opportunity as well.


Given those last two abilities, I feel like you took some inspiration from a popular MOBA, though I can't say for certain...
I didn't specifically take inspiration from anywhere, but I play a lot of games and MOBAs so they may have influenced it some. Are you referring specifically to Karthus from League of Legends?


While I think the basic idea is decent, overall I'd say it lacks in limitations.
The first draft of the Phobiamancer didn't actually have any damage in its kit at all. I made abilities that felt right for the idea of fear, but went back and looked at it, it had uses in combat, but the lack of damage made it useless. Even now it doesn't have very much damage. The main class gets Phantasmal Force at 3rd level, Phantasmal Killer at 11th level, Mental Cracks at 14th level, and Shatter Psyche at 15. And for the levels at which they become available, these abilities do very little damage. 3d6 damage at 14th level is tiny, Shatter Psyche is less than a Fireball against one target. This thought is continued in the next segment.


but having an action that does unavoidable damage (such as Shatter Psyche or Claustrophobia's Dark Confinement) isn't really how the game is designed. I'd go through and look at most of the class's abilities, either toning them down to something more like a cantrip or basic attack or introducing more limited uses.
There's a lot of cases of things doing unavoidable damage. Just look at nearly any save-spell. By the time a Phobiamancer gets Shatter Psyche, a Wizard has 18 uses of automatic damage via spells, and 8th level spells. At the same time, a Fighter has 3 attacks, and based on the scaling of player to-hit vs highest monster AC, that's pretty much guaranteed damage there anyway. The abilities seem strong as at-wills on there own, but when you compare it to what other classes of equivalent levels can do, the Phobiamancer is pretty well below the power curve. They make up for this with a whole lot of CC


For instance, Iron Maiden, Mind Cage, and Domain of Closure seemingly can all be used freely. Echoes of the Dead should probably have language about its duration; there are some others but I need to wrap up this post. Counterpoint: Dreadful Stare is probably okay as long as it takes an action instead of a bonus action. Pretty much the same thing I said above. You're limited to one Iron Maiden and Mind Cage at a time, and Iron Maiden also prevents your allies from harming the target. That said, Domain of Closure, as the captsone of the Nightmare Domain, should be limited like the others. That's just an error on my part. Same for Echoes. Dreadful Stare being a bonus action is intended for reasons similar to above. If a class doesn't have strong utility or damage, it should at least have strong reliable CC.


Anyway, I think you have a pretty good core here that just needs a bit of polish. In terms of its abilities, are you envisioning more of a short-rest, long-rest, or resourceless class? I'd say it's almost certainly the latter, but maybe ask yourself that a bit as you work on this (if you continue to). I think I'm going to keep the Phobiamancer. I've had a few other ideas that can fit the theme but that I don't think will fit a whole class, so I'll keep the work I do have.


Also, you have a duplicated sentence at the end of Fright Magic.
Fixed.

Mourne
2018-07-13, 12:14 AM
Requilac... additional comments. Apologies...sorting out the quoting mess will not be fun. :smallbiggrin:


You know, I was actually taking some of that into consideration. To me I thought it had a really solid and concrete, but I was worried that other people wouldn't be able to pick it up. I have a lot more to say about the comments above, but I will mention those later.

Thanks for kindly not mentioned that I referred to your class by an incorrect name throughout (Deep Dweller versus Deep Spawn)…/ahem I think this “issue” may stem more from my own limitations…In regards to the theme confusion, Deep Spawn conjures (to me) something coming from the deep oceans or waters and so I locked myself into this motif.


Yeah I noticed that pretty early on. Keep in mind that for the most part the archetypes are largely there for flavor with little mechanical impact though. I know that some people may not like that idea, but I personally found it the best approach to go with for this class.

Understood. That makes sense now. Given that this is the case, there still should be some balancing between them as there are mechanics involved.


As for the martial weapon proficiency, I do have two reasons behind that, both of which I discovered when I was actually making this class' predecessor, the Aberration martial archetype for fighters. First off, some people don't like the imagery of using natural weapons. They think it looks odd, especially the maw, and struggle to visualize it. Some just prefer the imagery of using normal weapons, and giving them proficiency in martial weapons doesn't make the class overpowered, so I added it in. My second rationale behind giving them martial weapon proficiency is in case they come across any magical weapons. It’s going to suck if you find a Sword of Life Stealing or Trident of Fish command but can't use it because you lack martial weapon proficiency after all.

Good points. I was coming from the perspective that since the natural weapons provided by Unnatural Combatant were always best case (in regards to martial weapons), that the martial proficiency was largely redundant but people like choices (especially if they find a choice magical goodie).


That is all true, its just that I have this weird quirk of disliking the idea of my more alien sub classes to be easily harmed by mental effects. It just feels wrong to me that this embodiment from another plane of existence would be scared half to death of a dragon or gawking over a dryad. But in truth, constitution makes much more sense. I am going to get over my qualms and switch proficiency in wis saves for con.

You could always add in advantage to saves versus fear as part of the core class…


I can't possibility account for multi-classing into this equation. I am trying to make this class as best as it can be in itself, if i take into account multiclassing makes things become much harder than they need to be.

Ha! I grumble about the same thing when someone brings it up on my own homebrews (and trying to account for feat interactions as well)… I guess I’ve heard it enough that it’s now a habit to critique for it. :smallannoyed:


Of course the Deep Spawn would be proficient in them, they are called simple weapons which the class has proficiency in. I will make it cost a bonus action if you feel it should come up. It doesn't change much either way, and I personally don't think it matters all that much.

It can matter quite a bit in how the class interacts with other classes (the multi-classing dirty word). Also, thematically, I like the vision of these appendages “slowly” (in the time of a bonus action) growing/forming rather than just instantly being there.


See my above reasoning for why I kept martial weapon proficiency. The only reason that I considered the unnatural weapons simple is because I think that makes more sense thematically, even if mechanically it looks a little strange. It should be easy for the Deep Spawn to wield them after all, they become part of their body. I would find it even weirder if they were considered as martial weapons.

And wait a second, they don't deal magic damage? They don't do they? That was completely my mistake, they were supposed to, but I forgot to add that in. Thanks for catching that mistake.

Np. The benefits of multiple eyes on your work.


The second sentence explains all of your questions; "This vulture cannot interact with the world (or be interacted with) anyway other than what is described in this feature." The invisibility is just there for fluff. I don't want to have it cost an interaction, because the deep spawn already has too much competition for its bonus action already.

This somewhat confuses me. As far as I can tell, the Deep Spawn has no feature other than the familiar that use its bonus action (other than the proposal for Unnatural Combatant)? I always tend to favor having to make choices (e.g. via what can be done with action economy) than allowing freebies. Just a design philosophy.


And also I am going to be completely honest with you; this feature is basically just a more thematic version of the Sahaugin's Blood Frenzy. In fact originally they did just have Blood Frenzy, but I wanted something with a little more oomph.

Not familiar. I’ll check it out.


I don't believe I fully understand your case with saying that the vulture isn't thematic though.

It’s not that it’s isn’t thematic, it’s that I don’t understand how it ties to the Deep Spawn. A (in my mind) deep sea dwelling abomination having a vulture… just doesn’t resonate.


This class has a recurring theme of the twisting of nature and animal imagery. Deep Dweller makes you amphibious like a fish. Unnatural combatant gives the armor and weapons of an animal. Tongue of the Deep allows you to communicate with animals. The Spirit Familiar can turn into an animal. Elemental Body is reminiscent of an electric eel.

Worded like that, it makes more sense. Perhaps I was being too narrow in my own interpretation.


And also, keep in mind what a vulture symbolically represents. They are thematically tied to corpses, mortal injures and the dying, necromantic magic, the afterlife and souls of the dead, etc. Altogether some vile imagery, which gives the Deep Spawn a more sinister mood. Really emphasizes the anti-cleric, ant-druid and anti-paladin mood a lot.

I agree… it’s just hard for me to tie the Deep Spawn (ocean, water) theme to a traditionally arid/savannah based carrion bird. Again, probably my own issue for mentally locking in to my own conception of what the name “Deep Spawn” evokes.


It is fluff more than anything. I just noticed that when designing the spell list, a lot of fire spells came up (burning hands, hellish rebuke, fireball, scorching ray) and wanted to make the theme more consistent.

Yeah, it really works well with the class allowing this change. If you wanted (though I don’t know why you would) to go a step further in locking down the theme, you could just state that any spell that inflicts fire damage instead inflicts cold damage.


A creature is frightened until the start of their next turn, as described earlier with the following clause in the first paragraph; "Any creaure that has a direct line of sight to you which moves to a location within 10 ft. of you or starts its turn within 10 ft. of you is subjected to one of the following effects until the start of their next turn."

Reading comprehension fail on my part, eh?


How does this remind you of rage exactly? Barbarian Rage allows you to use a bonus action to gain advantage on strength checks and saving throws, deal extra damage, and gain resistance to B/P/S damage which last for 1 minute. It has multiple charges which are restored on a long rest. The Deep Spawn's Hideous appearance allows you to use a bonus action to generate an aura effect which debuffs enemies and last for 1 minute. It only has one charge but it is restored on a long rest. Literally the only similarity I am seeing is their durations and the fact that they regain uses after a long rest, but that's hardly an original mechanic.

I didn’t mean as an exact mechanical copy, more as an initiated 1-minute long combat state buff. Maybe a stretch, but as I tend to design based off other abilities, I’m always looking for the baseline/inspiration.


It does not advance. It's just a familiar, its not really supposed to be used in combat except in the most niche of scenarios. Its a CR 1/4 monster, so according to Xanathar's its like having a 1st level PC along for the ride. And the reason that the familiar can turn into an invisible and usually tiny animal is what keeps it from being a liability.

Whereas it’s certainly structurally based on find familiar, the options seem to have a little more “oomph” than the standard familiar choices. I just made an assumption that this was intended as a – albeit minor – power boost to the melee capabilities. It might be a good tweak to the feature/class to allow some minor advancement of this creature (e.g. add your proficiency bonus to its AC, to hit, damage, and increase its HD occasionally)?


Yeah, I think I do need to secure its theme a little bit more. This should just deal cold damage. As for the damage bump, I was basing this feature off of the paladin's improved divine smite, which deals an extra 1d8 radiant damage on a hit, but doesn't have the ability to seize hit point regeneration.

Speaking of smite… could you see allowing the burning of the Deep Spawn’s spell slot to maximize this (rather than a blanket progression)?


I think it is actually really thematic. It really seals the deal that the Deep Spawn is an unholy and dark thing.

Oh, it’s completely thematic and fitting. It will be frustrating to a player to be given a flaw rather than a feature upon levelling though. I don’t think it would less thematic (or really detrimental) to include it in the Deep Dweller feature which would open up some design space to include a feature that is helpful/beneficial to the player at this level.


I wanted the lightning damage there to make it seem reminiscent of an electric eel. That being said, I see your point, and I will just make it cold damage.

Now that I see your vision better, I understand all the elemental choices.


I think it actually fits the theme well here well. As I previously stated, a rec curing theme here is the subversion of nature and the natural order. Deep Dweller gives you inhumane characteristics, Unnatural Combatant gives you features no human should have, your magic itself is not native to the Material Plane, Hideous Appearance makes you so wretched looking that it actually harms others, your spirit familiar is clearly some necromantic/summoning ability (neither of which are wholesome to the world), Necromantic Weapons prevents someone from healing, and Weakness to light makes it clear you are enemies with the preservers of nature.

And with Weather Manipulation, you take one of the strongest embodiments of what should be natural and make it unnatural. Snow in deserts, scorching flood inducing heat in the tundras, drought in the rainforest... things that should not occur, but which do because of the deep spawn's malign influence. What should be natural is their toy to mess with and use for the torment of others. I also like how it reinforces the idea that the deep spawn's very presence inflicts a "plague" upon the world. Long before you see it, you will feel the impacts which the deep spawn makes upon the environment. Very creepy ability.

Point taken (and understood)… just doesn’t feel very impactful (other than from a RP/thematic sense) as a capstone.


That and Gothic and Lovecraftian horror does make a lot of mention of storms and ice, so I thought it would be a nice to allusion to some of those pieces.

This really had a Lovecraftian feel (Dagon, Innsmouth)… it also reminded me of the old movie, Conan the Destroyer (where the “monster” was also Dagon-esque).

Overall, shaping up to be a fun class. It’s certainly a much less literal take on fear that I took.

Now, to find the time to give some comments on the other class in the contest…

WarrentheHero
2018-07-14, 02:43 AM
So it seems like this topic was significantly less popular than the last, and I suppose I take responsibility for that; it was my suggestion.

That said, have we given much thought to the next topic, since this contest is in its last week or so? Maybe it should be broader than my suggestion(s).

I'd also like to suggest that the next contest not be nearly 2 months long; I feel like that huge length of time negatively impacts interest and passion for the contest. Maybe that's just me, though.

Requilac
2018-07-16, 03:50 PM
There is only one week left in the competition. Make your finishing touches soon.




Thanks for kindly not mentioned that I referred to your class by an incorrect name throughout (Deep Dweller versus Deep Spawn)…/ahem I think this “issue” may stem more from my own limitations…In regards to the theme confusion, Deep Spawn conjures (to me) something coming from the deep oceans or waters and so I locked myself into this motif.

Oh... I didn't even notice you were calling it by the wrong name. And the idea is actually that the Deep Spawn is supposed to be something that comes from the deep oceans, one way or another. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally spawned in the deep oceans, it could just mean that their powers were "spawned" (in a more literary sense) from the deep oceans.



You could always add in advantage to saves versus fear as part of the core class…

Nah, its not really suitable and hardly worth its own feature. I will put my arbitrary assumptions aside.



Ha! I grumble about the same thing when someone brings it up on my own homebrews (and trying to account for feat interactions as well)… I guess I’ve heard it enough that it’s now a habit to critique for it. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, I do get that a lot, so I don't blame you for attempting to do so. It is a reasonable case, but trying to design content which isn't broken by multiclassing isn't even done perfectly by WotC (* cough, cough, coffeelock, cough, cough*), so it is nearly impossible for homebrew content.



It can matter quite a bit in how the class interacts with other classes (the multi-classing dirty word). Also, thematically, I like the vision of these appendages “slowly” (in the time of a bonus action) growing/forming rather than just instantly being there.

Yes, I like the imagery better too now that you brought it up.



This somewhat confuses me. As far as I can tell, the Deep Spawn has no feature other than the familiar that use its bonus action (other than the proposal for Unnatural Combatant)? I always tend to favor having to make choices (e.g. via what can be done with action economy) than allowing freebies. Just a design philosophy.

It is a good design philosophy to follow. I will make the vulture require a bonus action to move.



It’s not that it’s isn’t thematic, it’s that I don’t understand how it ties to the Deep Spawn. A (in my mind) deep sea dwelling abomination having a vulture… just doesn’t resonate.

Worded like that, it makes more sense. Perhaps I was being too narrow in my own interpretation.

I agree… it’s just hard for me to tie the Deep Spawn (ocean, water) theme to a traditionally arid/savannah based carrion bird. Again, probably my own issue for mentally locking in to my own conception of what the name “Deep Spawn” evokes.

Interesting that you say that, because I was completely unaware vultures were traditionally related to arid environments; in fact, I always thought vultures were pretty closely related to the sea. I live in a cold seaside town, which virtually the opposite of a savannah, but vultures can be found around there in abundance. And I have also heard a lot of sailor myths regarding vultures (almost all of which are actually erroneous , but that is besides the point). They where said to crowd around ships before a mutiny, some say that you can find a dead whale's corpse by following vultures, and apparently there is even a folk belief that by looking into a vulture's eyes that you can see the souls of the people it has seen drown. I never realized people wouldn't think about them as sea birds, I guess I must be a little narrow minded too.





I didn’t mean as an exact mechanical copy, more as an initiated 1-minute long combat state buff. Maybe a stretch, but as I tend to design based off other abilities, I’m always looking for the baseline/inspiration.

I don't think that just because they are an "initiated 1 minute long combat state buff" means they are similar if they have entirely different purposes. My inspiration for this was needing to do something that better reinforces the horror theme, and it was based around the Sea Hag's horrifying appearance (or at least that's what I think it is called), not a class feature.




Whereas it’s certainly structurally based on find familiar, the options seem to have a little more “oomph” than the standard familiar choices. I just made an assumption that this was intended as a – albeit minor – power boost to the melee capabilities. It might be a good tweak to the feature/class to allow some minor advancement of this creature (e.g. add your proficiency bonus to its AC, to hit, damage, and increase its HD occasionally)?

It is not really supposed to be a boost to melee capabilities, which is why I don't have it advance. It is supposed to be able to help in combat when necessary, but ultimately that was never its prime purpose. As I stated before, I intentionally made it like having another level 1 PC along for the ride.



Speaking of smite… could you see allowing the burning of the Deep Spawn’s spell slot to maximize this (rather than a blanket progression)?

Meh, the paladin's smite is pretty signature to it and I wouldn't want to steal a signature feature like that. I want the class to have some individuality after all.



Oh, it’s completely thematic and fitting. It will be frustrating to a player to be given a flaw rather than a feature upon levelling though. I don’t think it would less thematic (or really detrimental) to include it in the Deep Dweller feature which would open up some design space to include a feature that is helpful/beneficial to the player at this level.

I like how it comes at a later level actually. It really represents how far the Deep Spawn "descends into darkness" as they go further in this class. It seems to represent a terrible change which would evoke emotions into the person that reads it. That said, I am removing the second paragraph...



Point taken (and understood)… just doesn’t feel very impactful (other than from a RP/thematic sense) as a capstone.

To be fair, what capstone feels "impactful" from a mechanical sense. The barbarian's is helpful for sure but is little more than a glorified ABI, the bard's, monk's, sorcerer's and warlock's are all based around literally recharging things granted to them by other class features, the cleric only gets to use its capstone one once a week, the fighter's is another extra attack and the rogue's is cool but only works once per short or long rest. The druid's , paladin's and rangers though are admittedly pretty fair. Capstones are always rather underwhelming.




This really had a Lovecraftian feel (Dagon, Innsmouth)… it also reminded me of the old movie, Conan the Destroyer (where the “monster” was also Dagon-esque).

Overall, shaping up to be a fun class. It’s certainly a much less literal take on fear that I took.



Funny you mention Dagon. Take a wild guess as to what this class was based off of...

Yeah, the Deep Spawn is a less literal take on "fear" indead. I wasn't expecting everyone to take such a direct approach on the horror theme to actually make classes on phobias and nightmares and was assuming people would branch off and do stuff like I did, but that didn't appear to be the case.


So it seems like this topic was significantly less popular than the last, and I suppose I take responsibility for that; it was my suggestion.

That said, have we given much thought to the next topic, since this contest is in its last week or so? Maybe it should be broader than my suggestion(s).

I'd also like to suggest that the next contest not be nearly 2 months long; I feel like that huge length of time negatively impacts interest and passion for the contest. Maybe that's just me, though.

It doesn't really matter whose fault it is, it really doesn't help us here. Don't feel bad about yourself.

I need those two months to make my class. I need some time to do it, and a month presses me for time a little. I don't want to feel rushed in doing this, rushing produces bad content, and I am afraid that is what a shorter contest will produce.

And I haven't really given much thought to next season's theme because it is still a fortnight away, but I probably should be doing that.

Here are some of the previously discussed themes.

1) Elemental based classes: I think that the four elements system is horribly unoriginal and more than a little over done, at least in my opinion.

2) Dragons: This is a game called Dungeons and Dragons, don't we have enough dragons as is?

3) Monsters represented as PC classes: This is definitely an interesting idea, but once again, I worry it may be too narrow of a focus.

4) Classes who retrieve power in unconventional ways (such as someone stealing divine magic from the gods or being granted arcane powers from nature spirits): It's a cool idea, but its way too broad of a focus and I can't imagine there being much consistency between entries.

and I guess that's it. What do you all think of it?

WarrentheHero
2018-07-16, 09:00 PM
I need those two months to make my class. I need some time to do it, and a month presses me for time a little. I don't want to feel rushed in doing this, rushing produces bad content, and I am afraid that is what a shorter contest will produce.
I suppose you're right; I'm just being impatient.


And I haven't really given much thought to next season's theme because it is still a fortnight away, but I probably should be doing that.

I think Elements feels more overdone than it actually is. That said, it's still super common so it's not a fantastic idea. As for Dragons, I'm unconvinced there's an oversupply of them, at least from the player side in 5e. You've got... One Sorcerous Origin and the Fire Breath spell? I'm not sure how many homebrew dragon classes there are, and I'm sure it's a lot, but there's a lot of a lot of things. Foe both of these potential themes, I think the key to remember is that we should choose a theme we think we can make good classes for, not themes we think are novel for the sake of novelty.

I can think of a couple of PC race-class ideas off the top of my head; I don't think it'll be horribly narrow. Just in the course of writing this I've got lycanthropes, mimics, abberations/illithids, and dragons(again). Heck, I could even imagine a Peryton-based class that switches between humanoid and Peryton forms. It doesn't have the resonance of "oh yeah that's perfect", but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Ultimately I think we should vote on a theme, probably in the same thread we use to vote on the classes.


I also retract my previous statements about making individual threads for our classes and linking back to the contest. It doesn't seem to actually create more interest, and no-one else seems into it besides me.

Requilac
2018-07-17, 11:23 AM
I suppose you're right; I'm just being impatient.

Don't feel too bad, we can all get impatient if we are excited about something.



I think Elements feels more overdone than it actually is. That said, it's still super common so it's not a fantastic idea. As for Dragons, I'm unconvinced there's an oversupply of them, at least from the player side in 5e. You've got... One Sorcerous Origin and the Fire Breath spell? I'm not sure how many homebrew dragon classes there are, and I'm sure it's a lot, but there's a lot of a lot of things. Foe both of these potential themes, I think the key to remember is that we should choose a theme we think we can make good classes for, not themes we think are novel for the sake of novelty.

My other problem with elements is that I just don't like it as a system. This is just my opinion, but it doesn't make much sense to me either. It seems like it is supposed to be an all encompassing system which doesn't actually encompass everything. Everything is supposed to be linked to the elements, but not everything is. Where does necromantic magic fall on this spectrum? And how about divine magic and celestials? Would sources of cold damage such as Cone of Cold classify as water or air spells? What element would plant and animal life be linked to? And also, the dividing line and definition of elements is not thoroughly detailed. The atmosphere is chock full of hydrogen (water), but somehow air is its own element? Is magma something that should be associated with earth or fire, because it could be either? I just don't understand how the system is supposed to work, and if we try to make a contest with that theme, we will a ton of different entries which aren't related at all and follow completely different interpretations of the theme.

And as for dragons, that theme seems to narrow to me. How much could you honestly do with dragons, its such an extremely specific topic. Dragons really aren't much more than giant flying reptiles which can have horrible breath if you are honest. How many features could you possibly design, most of even the ancient dragons in 5e don't have anything except for Legendary Resistance, Frightful Presence and their Breath Weapons as special features. I can imagine someone creating a class based around controlling dragons, slaying dragons and even becoming dragons and... that's kind of all I can think of. If fear, one of the most prominent emotions in the human mind, is too specific than dragons would close up the contest even more.

Maybe something like reptiles as a whole would be better as a theme? That could include both dragons, dinosaurs and some more druidic types.



I can think of a couple of PC race-class ideas off the top of my head; I don't think it'll be horribly narrow. Just in the course of writing this I've got lycanthropes, mimics, abberations/illithids, and dragons(again). Heck, I could even imagine a Peryton-based class that switches between humanoid and Peryton forms. It doesn't have the resonance of "oh yeah that's perfect", but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Like I said, it is an idea we can go with, but to me it does feel a lot more limited than the other options. It shoul definitely be considered though.



Ultimately I think we should vote on a theme, probably in the same thread we use to vote on the classes.

Yes, that is probably a good practice to get into, but I have my doubts over whether anyone would actually enter them.



I also retract my previous statements about making individual threads for our classes and linking back to the contest. It doesn't seem to actually create more interest, and no-one else seems into it besides me.

Most of the other contestants have done it actually, those threads have just basically received no attention. Regardless, I will still let people do it, even if it didn't end up working as well as we thought it would.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-23, 02:53 PM
Looks like this is the last day to make submissions or edits for the contest! Make it count!

Requilac
2018-07-23, 04:26 PM
Looks like this is the last day to make submissions or edits for the contest! Make it count!

Yep everyone, there is only about 6.5 hours left in this competition. Be aware of that. I will get to making the voting thread as soon as possible after that, but there will be a delay of some 7 or so hours.

MoleMage
2018-07-23, 04:52 PM
Yep everyone, there is only about 6.5 hours left in this competition. Be aware of that. I will get to making the voting thread as soon as possible after that, but there will be a delay of some 7 or so hours.

I never managed to finish my class. Too busy with RL stuff this month. I'll post it on its own once I get caught up and I'm sorry I missed this contest. I'm still watching these, so hopefully I'll be able to put something together for the next contest (and plan to vote in this contest).

Requilac
2018-07-23, 05:04 PM
I never managed to finish my class. Too busy with RL stuff this month. I'll post it on its own once I get caught up and I'm sorry I missed this contest. I'm still watching these, so hopefully I'll be able to put something together for the next contest (and plan to vote in this contest).

Please don't feel too bad, real life should always come first. I am looking forward to your involvement in the next game.

Ivellius
2018-07-23, 07:00 PM
Similarly, I did a bit of work on a class I was hoping to submit, but it didn't pan out in time for the deadline. Probably just as well--I have another project I want to do now that will likely take up my creative attention until it's finished.

Requilac
2018-07-24, 06:56 PM
The competition has ended and voting has begun. Follow the link below to find the voting thread

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564749-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-Voting-Thread&p=23246678#post23246678

Requilac
2018-07-26, 07:07 PM
@ Ivellius

I was looking over the Phobiamnacer and think that it has a lot of potential. Its features, especially the subclass ones, are very thematic. But the only issue is that the phobiomancer has very little to do in combat and is immensely under powered. I think that could easily be countered by making the Phobiomancer a spellcasting class.

Speaking of that, why doesn't the Phobioamancer already have spellcasting?

WarrentheHero
2018-07-26, 08:49 PM
@ Ivellius

Phobiamancer is actually my class, but we have the same avatar, so no worries


I was looking over the Phobiamnacer and think that it has a lot of potential. Its features, especially the subclass ones, are very thematic. But the only issue is that the phobiomancer has very little to do in combat and is immensely under powered. I think that could easily be countered by making the Phobiomancer a spellcasting class. I got struck by some strong inspiration on changes I could make to the class, but this was on the last day of the contest, and unfortunately work kept me away from it. Basically the idea is to restructure the core class around Dreadful Stare and Mental Cracks (the bonus action fear and the damage-on-frightened abilities). Make that combo their basic combo and rebuild the class with that framework. I'd keep Instill Phobia and a handful of other features, especially Falter, all likely rebalanced for their new levels. The subclasses would have largely staid the same.

Though the class does have a decent amount of damage, it's just not usually flashy. Most of the class's damage exists in its subclasses. Arachnophobia gets its Poison legs and spider helpers, all of Claustrophobia does damage, and Thanataphobia gets its Wraith, as many Raise Dead'd zombies as it can, and a field of ghostly Opportunity Attackers. It's not a Big Damage class, but it has more than its first glance


Speaking of that, why doesn't the Phobioamancer already have spellcasting?
It has some. It gets Phantasmal Force at 3rd level, Fear at 7th, and Phantasmal Killer at 11th. You can cast each spell twice/rest. I don't think that most spells fit into the idea of Fear, so I gave them the ones that do.

Requilac
2018-07-26, 09:20 PM
Phobiamancer is actually my class, but we have the same avatar, so no worries

I got struck by some strong inspiration on changes I could make to the class, but this was on the last day of the contest, and unfortunately work kept me away from it. Basically the idea is to restructure the core class around Dreadful Stare and Mental Cracks (the bonus action fear and the damage-on-frightened abilities). Make that combo their basic combo and rebuild the class with that framework. I'd keep Instill Phobia and a handful of other features, especially Falter, all likely rebalanced for their new levels. The subclasses would have largely staid the same.

Though the class does have a decent amount of damage, it's just not usually flashy. Most of the class's damage exists in its subclasses. Arachnophobia gets its Poison legs and spider helpers, all of Claustrophobia does damage, and Thanataphobia gets its Wraith, as many Raise Dead'd zombies as it can, and a field of ghostly Opportunity Attackers. It's not a Big Damage class, but it has more than its first glance.

I didn’t say the class couldn’t deal damage, I said it wasn’t dealing enough damage to compete with other classes. In all of the core classes, their power either originated from extra attack and other abilities which increase their martial talent or spellcasting. The phobiomancer has neither. It can frighten people a lot and make basic attacks with simple weapons, and it also has a couple damaging subclass features. The phobiamancer has much less options in combat than spellcasters, and neither can it tank and strike like a martial class. It has some neat tricks, most of which aren’t much better than low level spells.




It has some. It gets Phantasmal Force at 3rd level, Fear at 7th, and Phantasmal Killer at 11th. You can cast each spell twice/rest. I don't think that most spells fit into the idea of Fear, so I gave them the ones that do.

I think that there a lot of spells which could fit the theme so long as you go beyond the obvious. Several conjuration spells (such as Web and Hunger of Hadar) can be seen as giving physical form to your fears, some divination spells can be seen as getting information through nightmares or horrific daydreams, many enchantment spells (such as Dissonant Whipsers and Hideous Laughter) can be flavored as specific forms of fear, many illusions directly deal with fear, necromancy is always suitable for most dark classes, and transmutation can be downright horrifying if played right.

Just because a spell doesn’t apply the frightened condition doesn’t mean it doesn’t fit the theme.

Requilac
2018-07-28, 12:34 PM
@ Berzeker Unit

You voted for the Erudite class in 3rd, when there is no actual Erudite class. Someone created its description then never designed any mechanics for it. Do you really believe that the phobiamancer so bad that a class which doesn’t exist is better than it?

As for why I didn’t like the Overlord... you just proved my point with that claim. Why would I want to play a class whose literal point is to ineffectively yell at people as the others take care of the action for them? I am not saying it’s a terrible concept, but you could have at least given the Overlord something to help in combat. Or at least spells. But it doesn’t really get a whole lot of anything for itself.

Ivellius
2018-07-28, 02:04 PM
As for why I didn’t like the Overlord... you just proved my point with that claim. Why would I want to play a class whose literal point is to ineffectively yell at people as the others take care of the action for them? I am not saying it’s a terrible concept, but you could have at least given the Overlord something to help in combat. Or at least spells. But it doesn’t really get a whole lot of anything for itself.

It also violated contest guidelines by being posted outside of GiantitP, unless I'm mistaken on that rule.

Requilac
2018-07-28, 03:59 PM
It also violated contest guidelines by being posted outside of GiantitP, unless I'm mistaken on that rule.

Oh crap, how did I not realize this earlier. He does mention hosting it over DMs guild in his submission. How do I miss this sort of thing?

@ Berzerker Unit,

Rule #3 states the following

"If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread then one on the homebrew design sub-forum, you will be disqualified... If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition."

Do you have anything to say on this matter? As per rule #7 you are allowed to provide a justification and make a case to the group as to why you made that mistake and possibly avoid the consequences. What caused you to violate this rule?

I am very sorry about this, it isn't anything personal. I hope you understand that I have to uphold the rules of the competition though. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I gain no enjoyment from doing this.

BerzerkerUnit
2018-07-30, 11:14 AM
Oh crap, how did I not realize this earlier. He does mention hosting it over DMs guild in his submission. How do I miss this sort of thing?

@ Berzerker Unit,

Rule #3 states the following

"If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread then one on the homebrew design sub-forum, you will be disqualified... If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition."

Do you have anything to say on this matter? As per rule #7 you are allowed to provide a justification and make a case to the group as to why you made that mistake and possibly avoid the consequences. What caused you to violate this rule?

I am very sorry about this, it isn't anything personal. I hope you understand that I have to uphold the rules of the competition though. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I gain no enjoyment from doing this.

Ah! Sorry about that. I don't have a justification, but I will provide an explanation.

Mostly I'd claim enthusiasm and lack of sleep to be the culprit. I saw a homebrew contest and was like "I homebrew tons of stuff, let me in on that!" but I was in the middle of an over the ocean move from Honolulu to Portland so between packing and paperwork and tearing my hair out waiting to find out if I'm good enough TO GIVE PEOPLE MONEY (seriously, between the background checks for an apartment and to ship my car, I feel like I'll be asked for my info the next time I get a #7 at Taco Bell), I know I skimmed over everything posted, but clearly some of it didn't stick. I have to assume I dreamed having read the Erudite and liking it.

(I don't have any concise mechanical gripes with the Phobiamancer, but I do think it's too narrow a concept for a base class, but like I think I said, it would make a good jumping off point as an archetype for some kind of emotion controller, but it's very subjective either way).

As to the Overlord critique, it's certainly a subjective point. I felt giving the PC more to do would have been overkill without further nerfing the Thralls, although I thought what they were given in the Subclass was potent (though none of it shows up until the second half of your career). I will also note, I don't recall too many episodes of GI Joe or Pokemon where Cobra Commander or Ash did anything on their own.

I should also mention this same error occurred with my Voidtouched Sorcerer on the It Came From Beyond subclass contest. Double sorry.

Requilac
2018-07-30, 06:10 PM
Ah! Sorry about that. I don't have a justification, but I will provide an explanation.

Mostly I'd claim enthusiasm and lack of sleep to be the culprit. I saw a homebrew contest and was like "I homebrew tons of stuff, let me in on that!" but I was in the middle of an over the ocean move from Honolulu to Portland so between packing and paperwork and tearing my hair out waiting to find out if I'm good enough TO GIVE PEOPLE MONEY (seriously, between the background checks for an apartment and to ship my car, I feel like I'll be asked for my info the next time I get a #7 at Taco Bell), I know I skimmed over everything posted, but clearly some of it didn't stick. I have to assume I dreamed having read the Erudite and liking it.

(I don't have any concise mechanical gripes with the Phobiamancer, but I do think it's too narrow a concept for a base class, but like I think I said, it would make a good jumping off point as an archetype for some kind of emotion controller, but it's very subjective either way).

As to the Overlord critique, it's certainly a subjective point. I felt giving the PC more to do would have been overkill without further nerfing the Thralls, although I thought what they were given in the Subclass was potent (though none of it shows up until the second half of your career). I will also note, I don't recall too many episodes of GI Joe or Pokemon where Cobra Commander or Ash did anything on their own.

I should also mention this same error occurred with my Voidtouched Sorcerer on the It Came From Beyond subclass contest. Double sorry.

Yes, I see, we all mistakes. Rules our outlined here to make things far though, and skimming through the rules and not memorizing them aren't enough to get that. I hope you understand, but I think I am going to need to disqualify you. It doesn't really matter though, because voting ends in 5 hours and you are unlikely to even get in 3rd place at this point. Please no hard feelings about this, I don't take any sort of enjoyment from doing this.

Please just remember this if you plan on entering the future competitions. You can still enter those without problem, even if you were disqualified once.

WarrentheHero
2018-07-30, 09:12 PM
Man my class must really be not all that great if two people have voted for a description of a class instead of my full one! Oh well; there's always next contest.

BerzerkerUnit
2018-07-31, 12:40 AM
Yes, I see, we all mistakes. Rules our outlined here to make things far though, and skimming through the rules and not memorizing them aren't enough to get that. I hope you understand, but I think I am going to need to disqualify you. It doesn't really matter though, because voting ends in 5 hours and you are unlikely to even get in 3rd place at this point. Please no hard feelings about this, I don't take any sort of enjoyment from doing this.

Please just remember this if you plan on entering the future competitions. You can still enter those without problem, even if you were disqualified once.

Roger roger.

Requilac
2018-07-31, 05:54 PM
The competition has ended and the voting has over, and these are the results

1st place: The Sleepwalker (by Mourne) with 17 points
2nd place: The Deep Spawn (By Requilac) with 13 points
3rd place: The Phobiamancer (By WarrentheHero) with 9 points
4th place: The Erudite (By the Crim the Cold) which somehow received 2 points despite the fact that it does not actually exist.

The Overlord (By BerzerkUnit) was disqualified for breaking rule #3.

Also, I have tallied up the votes for theme and it looks like the next competitions theme will be that of the elements. I will get to making those threads now as we speak.